Isn’t this what everyone says so the club can stay on their path to win?
Xabi Alonso: Bayer Leverkusen manager
- Thread starter horsechoker
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Isn’t this what everyone says so the club can stay on their path to win?
Alonso’s decision does nothing to dampen the comparisons to Klopp as he too balked at the offer of taking over from a club legend with expectations at an all-time high…
Also, like Klopp, Alonso will probably be one of those managers who does better at smaller, provincial clubs with low expectations (or at least where expectations are carefully managed due to ready-made, self-imposed excuses, e.g. net spend, losing ‘star players’ etc.)
He seems a perfect fit for that mob down the East-Lancs alright.
Also, like Klopp, Alonso will probably be one of those managers who does better at smaller, provincial clubs with low expectations (or at least where expectations are carefully managed due to ready-made, self-imposed excuses, e.g. net spend, losing ‘star players’ etc.)
He seems a perfect fit for that mob down the East-Lancs alright.
So wouldn't take him at Utd then?
No, not really.
Don’t they deny till the summer window? Same with player sales etc. or is it different with managers?
I would rather have Nagelsman in honesty
Both would be pretty exciting if we're honest.
I think you're exaggerating a bit here. Tapspba, Palacios, Kossounou, Hincapie and Frimpong were not even close to being established players at the time of their arrival and I doubt more than 1% of German football followers had heard of them before.
I also think hindsight is playing tricks on you regarding Dortmund. They had more academy products in the Klopp years, I give you that, but Pisczek, Lewandowski and Kagawa won the Bundesliga in their first season for Dortmund. Barrios, Hummels and Bender in their second and Subotic and Santana in their third. Plus Sahin and Großkreutz didn't really came through their youth ranks but returned shortly before the Bundesliga winning years. The only player who was with their team for a longer period of time were Kuba and Weidenfeller plus the two youth players Schmelzer and Götze.
I'm not sure there has ever been a take in this thread I disagreed with as much. Alonso is pretty much tailor made for the clubs that attract the best quality of players. Not wanting him at United is completely irrational.
Alonso got balls of steel. He could make it anywhere. Let him manage the New York Yankees imo, he’d do better than Aaron Boone
I peered into RAWK and they all said that Nagelsmanns actually accomplishments are very under whelming in terms of what he has done. Is this true? I know nothing of him or his style of play
I don't know loads about him barring what the casual European football fan would know.
But, he looks to play a proactive, offensive game. Just a quick Wiki search shows he's managed 321 first team games with a 54% win rate at the age of 36, which is pretty mental. It looks like his reputation took a hit at Bayern, though.
This fits in nicely for when Carlo retires from Real at the end of next season.
Tapsoba and Kossounou didn't start in that example match so I didn't mention them. I listed Hincapie and Frimpong, so only Palacios seems to be where we disagree in that example. I simply don't see the step from the Argentinian league to the Bundesliga as big as the step from the Japanese second league (like Kagawa did).
Also it's not important how long those players developed at Dortmund before winning things. The fact how quickly some of them jumped up levels of performance again actually supports my point that at Dortmund something unsustainable happened.
Let's have a look at what he did:
- became BL manager before turning 30 - that's impressive
- saved Hoffenheim from being relegated - that was good
- lead Hoffenheim into the CL - that was absolutely amazing work
- lead Leipzig into a Cup final and CL semifinal - that was pretty solid work, but he probably should have won that cup. Haaland prevented that as he decided the final.
- taking over Bayern made him the youngest ever manager to manage three different clubs in the CL
- won a league title which was nothing special for Bayern
- had a horrible early cup exit against Gladbach (0-5!)
- exited the CL against Villareal - shouldn't have happened
- second season was solid but not special and saw him replaced by Tuchel
So overall he did lead both Hoffenheim and Leipzig to achievements these clubs never got before despite not winning titles. That he got nothing with Leipzig is a bit underwhelming indeed. His work at Bayern combined with the context of his predecessor's fate and his successor's proves more that Bayern are a chaotic club that need to get it's shit together again, but indeed results where underwhelming there again.
On the plus side while managing Germany he seems to have reached the point of "f*ck that shit" and has developed a new edge in dealing with players. That probably is a good thing if he has to manage a ruthless clearout of a squad like he just did with Germany.
54 is a good percentage? How many draws. Had no idea that was a good percentage
It is when you start your career deep in relegation danger for a club that is expected to be in the lower half. He didn't start managing a top club.
Won 172, lost 69. His win rate has increased throughout his career: Hoffenheim 41% win rate, Leipzig 57% win rate, Bayern 71% win rate. For a 36 year old, it's pretty unreal imo.
I think his next job will be lift off for him in terms of becoming a real top manager
Bayern's reputation took more of a hit for sacking him prematurely, honestly. They ended up firing their CEO and sporting executive for that and are now actually thinking about rehiring him..
Alonso seems smart. He knows there‘s a risk it could all unravel if he went to a mega club so soon and that this season may have just been some fluke. It will be interesting to see how Leverkusen do next season, even if they’re a close 2nd to Bayern after losing their best players over the summer, he’s probably legit.
Of course it isnt as big but it is still a very big step. My point was that most of the players in this current squad weren't bought as finished products but were signed as talents and developed into them. That's also backed up by their age at the time of their signature, by the way: Tah (19), Tapsoba (20), Palacios (21), Frimpong (20), Wirtz (16), Hincapie (19), Adli (21), Kossounou (20). And while Kossounou and Adli were already deemed failures and only turned it around under Alonso, the rest at least made huge leaps in performances under him as well. So I think this is actually a textbook example of building up a team longterm and then adding a few immediate improvements to it when the opportunity comes.
I don't think it was less sustainable than what we are currently seeing in Leverkusen. Actually, I thought it was more sustainable because Dortmund has more growth potential. The issue is that Bayern hit some historic form with Heynckes and Guardiola shortly after and when they regressed eventually, Dortmund did as well, culminating in the last season when it seemed no team wanted to win the league. That has various reasons but I think one is that both Dortmund and Bayern bet on the wrong horse, trying to implement the typical RB transition football and overall focusing on the German market again.
Add to that that Dortmund actually did develop excellently on the financial front but so far hasn't begun utilizing this position of strength. Bayern rules over the league by dominating it financially but when you compare Dortmund's tranfers with the ones of similarly sized clubs, then you get the feeling that they are investing very risk. And if they decide to spend huge money, it's usually uninspired business involving players with some connections to Germany or the Bundesliga like Can, Haller, Sabitzer or Süle. That's a stark contrast to what they did under Klopp when their transfers were not only very inventive but also international. I mean, their youth scouting is still excellent with players such as Duranville, Bynoe-GIttens, etc. But the more short term oriented their decisions, the worse they get.
Maybe it wasn't thst clear but I agree on this
My point was that Klopp's Dortmund were not a good example for that but more for a once in a lifetime miracle.
Alonso wouldn't have the balls to feck his daughter's best friend while his wife was recieving cancer treatment. Coward.
Absolutely hate Keys but to be fair, i think he's got a point. Seems an odd choice from Xabi for me.
Same feeling.
When the godfather offer from Bayern comes in June I suspect a different tune.
Why? The Madrid job isn't available until next summer and it's the best job going.
Whats odd about a person staying somewhere they enjoy working?
But the Bayern and Liverpool jobs are which are massive, his stock is as high as it'll ever be. Im not criticising him and the way Keys has positioned it is horrible (he's horrible after all so no surprise there), but it would feel like a missed opportunity if i was him.
Ah, is the Ancelotti deal till next year. I could we’ll see him riding it out for a year if Perez has said he’s a shoe in.
Depends on ambition i guess, i'm assuming (possibly wrongly) that he'd want to be in a top job and winning things but perhaps you're right and its more of a case of him wanting to enjoy the job rather than compete at the highest level.
What is odd about the choice of staying at the soon to be Bundesliga champions and one of Europe's best teams this season? It is great news for the parity of the Bundesliga which has been arguably the most lopsided league in Europe for the last decade.
It could well blow up in his face is things go tits up next season, that said, I think there's less expectation where he is, regardless of what they win this year, than there would be at Liverpool or Bayern. There's more than a whiff of Moyes taking over from Fergie at Liverpool right now. Bayern feels like a safer bet, but how much time does he really want to spend in Germany?
It is.
Its a small club and is dwarfed by Bayern, its like Kante winning the league at Leicester and then moving to Chelsea. Of course its great news for the Bundesliga but i'd be surprised if they maintain it into next season at beyond, hopefully they do but personally, i cant see it and so the only way is down for Xabi and this team.
I could of course be horribly wrong, it wouldnt be the first time!
I think this is the key question. Is staying at Leverkusen in this moment competing at the highest level, or isn't it? If it is, it's fine to stay, if it isn't, it is a wasted opportunity.
Considering that he built a record breaking team in the league that will have a chance to repeat the title in the league and compete in the CL, it can absolutely be said that he is competing at the highest level.
Of course that requires that (most of) the team also stays together and those who leave are replaced well, but it sounds like Leverkusen are proceeding quite smoothly in their internal squad plannings (which includes Alonso).
I am pretty sure that a stable Leverkusen can perform similarly to the still chaotic Bayern or to Liverpool who will have to deal with a major reshuffling of the club after Klopp.
On top: if he repeats the league win next season he will immediately be more of a manager legend than he could by winning five titles in a row with Bayern.
I agree with that point, i did wonder that myself. The scouse job feels like a bit of a lose/lose one.
On the contrary, for me it’s the wisest choice he could make.
Said on another one, i'd be wary of the scouse job, it does feel a bit of a difficult situation and huge shoes to fill, Bayern i'd be a bit more confident on if i was him.
Why?
Him and Leverkusen have built a very strong side. And Leverkusen aren't some small club either. They also aren't doing a Leicester season, where they are overachieving with a mediocre squad. Why leave after only just one great season, when you could continue doing this for at least another year? For me, it would feel like wasting all the hard work of the past two years for his successor to reap the rewards.
If they don't sell several key players, they can win the Bundesliga again, and potentially go deep in the Champions League as well next season. He can absolutely compete on the highest level with this team. Bayern aren't even underachieving that badly, as they'll still be projected to finish on 75 points, if they lose to Dortmund tonight. Leverkusen are just having an unbelievable domestic campaign, similar to Bayern in their treble winning 2012/13 season.