He would be able to coach some cohesion into that team immediately, no doubt about that. At the moment defenders and attackers are operating independently from each other, therefore opening huge spaces for the opposition to play through. He would coach them to become good at pressing however I don't think he would exactly implement a high pressing right now, more likely a deeper midfield pressing to utilize the excellent counter attackers United have.
Would you take Ralf Rangnick as manager?
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Football is a much larger and more complicated sport than when Fergie was in charge. The changes he implemented in the 80s made us one of the more modern clubs in the world, but by the time he left we were old-fashioned and over reliant on key individuals. David Moyes reportedly wanted access to a database of potential recruits and scouting targets and was told all that stuff was in Jim Lawlor's head. We hired our first data specialist this summer, while Liverpool have had one for over half a decade! Manchester City has moved one step ahead already and are hiring astrophysicists and AI developers(!) We can't hope to compete with City and Liverpool with an old-fashioned approach to running a football club any more than we can hope to match Klopp, Guardiola and Tuchel in matches without proper tactical coaching and acumen.
Our rivals are ahead of us in coaching, tactical analysis, player recruitment, scouting metrics, sport science, AI utilisation, training analysis, managerial appointments and long-term planning, with more. We've been terribly behind the times.
Well first of you can't blame the guy in charge of youth development structure for the lack of first team involvement - that is on the manager and coaching staff. We also have to keep in mind that we didn't even have a DoF until March this year. As head of Youth development (or w/e it's called) he's ensured that we've poached some of the better youth scouts in the country, set up a globalised youth scouting network and systematically built a better structure around the youth team. We've poached talents from City, Spurs and the FA who all have proper CVs and a history of success. We're very much improving in that regard.
Now that he's a DoF he is modernising the club. Hiring data scientists, bring in the best in class to head youth recruitment departments, changing recruitment practices when it comes to scouts, youth coaches and more. He's only been in the job for less than a year, and he does not have significant influence over the first team - unfortunately. However, in the areas where he actually has influence he's doing a good job and there are genuinely positive signs both in staff recruitment and structural developments. As of right now there's no indication that it is the DoF that needs to be replaced.
Well that's the coach's fault isn't it? And as mentioned, the DoF is in charge of structural changes, appointments and staff recruitments of the club. He is however not in charge of the first team - which has to do with our belief that the manager should have that power. Maybe that changes after Ole, but we'll have to see.
"coach the team better" is the blanket term for what needs to happen. Since this is a discussion forum it would maybe be fun to spend more than 3 seconds thinking about what he is actually going to do to accomplish that?
Who will he play? what tactical changes will he make? Ragnick is first and foremost a good sports director. He's not a managerial winning machine like what Tuchel turned out to be.
For example I see that a LOT of posters want AWB dropped. The option we have is Diogo Dalot who was the pivotal roundabout for Villareals right flank attack at Old Trafford. Will he persist with AWB?
This is the thinking/mindset we are severely lacking under Ole.
If we cant get Ten Hag this is who I want.
I agree with you and Rangnick would change all of this.
As an experienced Director of Football in the modern era, Ragnick would move us forward as a club. However, he would also simultaneously be able to coach the first team and improve us in the immediate as well as in the future.
For me Ragnick is the obvious and outstanding candidate to succeed Ole. He would be able to use his experiences at RB etc to make us a functioning set up off field. While his coaching brilliance would make us functioning on the field as well. To some extent having him as manager would make a Director of Football somewhat unneeded because he could be his own director of football. So whatever ability Murtough does or doesn't have would not act as a handbrake on our progression.
Erik ten Hag. I think this is the person we need right now.
He is ambitious, hungry for success and he showed what can he do in Ajax.
He is ambitious, hungry for success and he showed what can he do in Ajax.
Well we'll agree to disagree then I suppose. I don't see a need to change the DoF at the current moment in time - especially given he hasn't even been involved in a single managerial appointment yet - and therefore I don't see the point in hiring Rangnick. I also don't see how hiring a 63 year old to be our DoF is any help for the future development and long term modernisation of the club. I really don't want us to become a club that replaces the DoF every three years, that would just be counter-productive.
Right now we need a new manager and a better coaching staff, not a DoF.
For a start, he would set up the team to press and play on front foot. He is not a managerial winning machine but he is very good coach who has done very good job.
Coming to players, seriously how would anyone know? I mean who thought Conte would prefer Moses as RWB? Or Pep would play Lahm as DM.
One thing is for sure, we won't be a disjointed team were team is made up of 3 pieces, defensive, attacking and midfield (non existent one). We will be a unit, a team that knows how to press. Is he a long term solution for us? No. But for caretaker manager, he would be very good. Finally we will take our first step towards modern game.
He's the only option that I can honestly get fully on-board with. Mostly the others are a case of "anyone but Ole" at this stage...but that attitude isn't useful in reality, it could set us back even further. I don't understand the attraction to Ten Hag, obviously if he ends up coming in I will fully support him and of course, but I don't know why he's such a popular option. I can't believe things are so bad I'm saying this but I'd rather Rodgers, he knows the league and came so close with a Liverpool squad that didn't have the quality it does now. I just don't know if he's elite. The only option I see which is considered elite is Zidane, but I don't see him as a good fit.
The fact the club is such a mess from top to bottom leads me to Rangnick because he has the experience and credentials for a Director of Sport and manager/coach role. We would need to give him control to do what's needed. Would we do that? I think the club likes Ole so much because he's easy to manage and control. We need a complete refresh of the coaching staff. We should let someone like Rangnick do it.
I feel they would almost be embarrassed to let a true professional into the set-up, like he'd take a look and say what the Hell are you guys playing at here?! Probably partly why they are sticking with Ole, Murtagh and friends. And they have no idea what to do.
The fact the club is such a mess from top to bottom leads me to Rangnick because he has the experience and credentials for a Director of Sport and manager/coach role. We would need to give him control to do what's needed. Would we do that? I think the club likes Ole so much because he's easy to manage and control. We need a complete refresh of the coaching staff. We should let someone like Rangnick do it.
I feel they would almost be embarrassed to let a true professional into the set-up, like he'd take a look and say what the Hell are you guys playing at here?! Probably partly why they are sticking with Ole, Murtagh and friends. And they have no idea what to do.
Honestly, we're not in a position to tell because we're on the outside. Still, even if Ragnick is not appointed, I think we need a new Director of Football as well as First Team Coach.
The way the journalists write it, Woodward still runs the football side of things and Murtough just handles the stuff he doesn't want to do. For me that's not sustainable. United should have a top class Director of Football, which Ragnick has proven to be at RB, who drives the football side and assembles a squad that suits an idea of how to play. Its a bonus that Ragnick himself is also good at coaching that style, which means if we appoint him on a short-term deal we could kill two birds with one stone. However, I think certain coaches e.g., Ten Hag would be baffled by how United is run. Can you imagine going from working with Overmars as your Director of Football to working with a Director of Football who actually isn't in charge of setting a vision?
Man Utd still needs its football side streamlined and organised. The fact that our last three coaches all played 4-2-3-1 yet we still only have one #6 in the squad suggests there's no real connection between recruitment and first team requirements. A better coach could do more with the players we have but (God forgive me for saying so) Michael Owen hit the nail on his head with his postgame comments on Saturday. We've got a squad that's just a mix of different players where the coach's job is to continually cover for the weaknesses of players. At properly run clubs players who can't suit the idea of how you should play get moved on. At United they get new contract's 'to protect value.' The club is run completely backwards and that's a big reason why a) Ole is still in a job and b) why Ole losing his job won't necessarily make things that much better. As you point out, Liverpool and City are structured in a way that makes them far likelier to succeed than we are.
I’m not denying his ability, I’m just not sure it makes sense as a short term option. IF he is coming on a six month deal, I don’t really see us being able to implement close to what he wants (see Klopp’s first half season where Liverpool finished 8th) which would probably lead us to a worse result this season than the type of managers who look to play simpler systems.
Then we go into next season needing to learn what the next manager wants, which could be similar but it won’t be the same. However, I will accept that if he is staying past six months in some kind of capacity, then it makes far more sense.
Yeah this is exactly the kind of thing we need right now but like others have said unlikely the club will think modern
It's not like Liverpool finished 8th just to bedding in of tactics though. That squad was atrocious and they'd just lost Sterling if i recall correctly.
We're not in the same situation.
I'd presume it would be an initial contract until the end of the season, with an extended term possibility if it goes well.
I don’t think it was that bad, they finished second 2 years before and lost Suarez, then finished 6th. Obviously they needed a keeper and central defender (sigh remember those days), but they were definitely a better team than 8th.
Yeah we need some blue sky thinking like Chelsea's deal with Tuchel or Spurs with Conte
I agree with everything, aside from the point of replacing Murthough. The argument as to why a DoF needs to have more influence over managerial appointments and transfer strategy is clear as day. If anything we ought to give him more influence over first team affairs, not sack him. In the areas where he's been allowed to operate he's done a very good job. It's not fair to sack him just because an area of the club he isn't even properly involved with at the time is failing. In every other department we hire best in class, at first team level we hire people with Man Utd connections - clearly that is were the problem lies at the moment. I agree completely that the wrong people have been in charge, but I am hopeful that this will change if/when Murthough is involved in the appointment of a new manager. Ole's hire predates Murthough's DoF role, so we likely/hopefully will see a change with the next hire. I see no clear argument as to why replacing Murthough specifically is important, but I certainly see plenty of reasons as to why a DoF needs more influence and why we need a new manager.
A problem with Rangnick, reported by Fabrizio Romano, is that he insists on having a say on everything from the commercial aspects to first team selections. For starters I think we're far too big for that now. I don't think we solve anything by becoming overly dependent on one man. Secondly, our rivals don't operate like that at all. No one is telling the manager at Bayern, City and Liverpool who to play - they hire the best candidate for the job and let him do the work. All within the purview of the DoF, backed up by a top class system. With all due respect to RB Leipzig, those are the clubs we are competing with or should be looking to compete with. Relying on one man "fixing us" seems like the recipe for disaster.
This is the key part, even that 6 months before becoming the DoF helps alot. He would then be heavily involved in the appointment of the manager, and would surely pick a similar style of manager, and by that point the players have a 6 month head start on learning how that style of football is played.
Would be a great DOF. Wont happen though as the Glazers have already got their yes man in.
Exactly you have absolutely nailed it there but this way of thinking is far too modern for our yankee cowards
All fair points but a small problem, the things you have pointed out are things head of youth development does not DOF, DOF is the guy who is responsible for the club as a whole not just for the youth teams, signing youth team players is but one part of the job. Murtough has no experience in DOF role nor much power given he doesn't seem to have any say in the next manager.
We will have a new CEO in a few months, and if it is arnold it will again be someone who has little to no experience on football side of the business, which could work if there were people at the club who could be delegated that job, our options right now are hope the new manager knows what he is doing or trust 2 guys who have no experience in their respective jobs. Some one like a Rangnick or Overmars could bring much need experience that this club desperately needs.
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Which is why I'm saying we need to give more power to the DoF, not assume that it will all change if we just replace him with an all in one manager DoF option. I don't see an argument as to why Rangnick would be preferable to simply giving Murthough more influence and letting him have a voice in appointing a new manager. Because I agree that he has too little power over the current situation. I'm saying we should give him that power. Right now we need a new manager, someone to coach the first team better, handle matches and the tactical aspects of the job better. We need this person to be in line with a larger footballing vision, so it would only be natural to have the DoF involved - and I hope that he will be.
Overmars is a different subject entirely, both because of his age, and the fact that he doesn't demand a similar level of control as Rangnick does. However I still maintain that we don't need a new DoF, and he's not a manager so the discussion on him is moot at this point.
I definitely would, but we'd have to subscribe to his philosophy longer term. I certainly think he'd have us further up the table but I'd bet my house on this one not happening, far too radical for the Glazers.
I always knew I could do a better job than that chinless surrey banker wanker spunk bubble
Whilst he might be a tactical genius this has never resulted in any sort of success whilst he has been a manager.
his highest win percentage is 58% with Red Bull Leipzig and the rest seems very meh, i am not sure i understand the clamor for him.
The thing with this thread and all the others regarding a new manager is a lack of objectivity in a lot of cases its anyone but Ole, thats not to say i am Ole in i am Ole out but out with a plan not just hire anyone who is not Ole.
his highest win percentage is 58% with Red Bull Leipzig and the rest seems very meh, i am not sure i understand the clamor for him.
The thing with this thread and all the others regarding a new manager is a lack of objectivity in a lot of cases its anyone but Ole, thats not to say i am Ole in i am Ole out but out with a plan not just hire anyone who is not Ole.
It's amusing so many people laugh off the suggestion when Fergie described Rangnick as the most gifted manager of his generation. At his last leadership talk at Harvard he said very few clubs are willing to implement the top down changes and complete vision that Rangnick would want which is why he will struggle to succeed at the largest clubs. He said his one regret was not bringing in Rangnick as an assistant manager when he had the chance so he could take over with the full backing of the board. They even discussed how Old Trafford and all it's facilities would need modernising and expanding to keep ahead of the growing league with Rangnick producing architectural prints to achieve this back in 2010.
How do you give murtough more power though? If we were a competently run club we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Murtough has no real experience nor will he get this kind of a job if he were to leave utd, he's basically in the same position as ole on that front. They have a position only because of woodward. Can't exactly leverage that into more say in running things. On the other hand a Rangnick or Overmars or anyone similarly experienced can basically demand a say just to start negotiations with the club.
On him not being manager, there really aren't many care taker options, another ole won't be acceptable to fans or media and outside of zidane who comes with his own set of issues no real quality manager available in short term.
Well, he would kill and ressurect the squad, so I guess that's fitting.
Ralf as interim manager.
Ten Haag in the Summer with Ralf moving to DoF.
The current DoF is a yes man who won't rock the boat, so is useless.
I think with Ralf and Ten in our team, we'll move upwards, medium and long term.
Ten Haag in the Summer with Ralf moving to DoF.
The current DoF is a yes man who won't rock the boat, so is useless.
I think with Ralf and Ten in our team, we'll move upwards, medium and long term.
I couldn't agree more with that bolded part. Liverpool is schooling us on this aspect of running a club. Michael Edwards is leaving, and they already have a replacement groomed for nine years, all caught up and prepared to take the step up.
I see your point about leverage, and if that is indeed the case, that we aren't even interested in a proper implementation of the DoF, then we're clearly making a mess of it all over again. I prefer to remain optimistic at this point though and hope we're actually giving him the necessary power to do the job. I spent some time going through Murthough's career when he was appointed - cause I was surprised we didn't go for someone with more experience - , and I think he has a decent set of qualifications for the role, so I'm not sure I'd agree it's a similar situation to Ole.
As for the lack of managers available. We should pay whatever we need to get the most suitable manager. We're not a poor mid-table side, we're the club with the second highest revenue in world football - it shouldn't be a problem for us to go get exactly the man we want. The whole "who is available" all feels like nonsense and PR-spin to be honest. So what if the guy we want works for someone else? Why should that stop us?
This thing about Ronaldo not pressing is very misleading. Ronaldo wouldn't hound every player, but he's more than capable of cutting the passing lanes, which is very much how Ralf press from what I've been reading.
The only "anyone but Ole" appointments that would set us back further than the course we are on with Ole is someone like Bruce, Hughes, Giggs, Neville, etc. The lowest of the low of random garbage managers who were ex United players. Literally just sacking Ole and having no actual manager would be a positive at this point.
Murtough is a very experienced data analyst. He actually had far more experience when he got the job than Overmars or Edwards when they got theirs, he is the one alongsige Butt who revamped the youth system, he was highly rated at Everton under Moyes and then got poached by the Premier League as their head of elite performance. Murtough having that kind of job has nothing to do with Woodward.
Well yeah, but we need a total refresh I don't know how we can do that at this stage - if we bring someone in on the interim and revisit things after this season that's fine.
Yes, he likes "pressing traps". Let the players upfront just cut passing lanes in a way that the ball must be played into an area where his strongest ball winners play. Those need the energy to do that, but for many players in the team that way of a bit deeper defending/ pressing is just a relatively low energy question of being aware of the right positioning.
And I swear I will punch something or someone if I have to read again and again that (many) United players have the brain of a six year old and the body of a sixty year old (="they can't press")...
This is all down to abject nepotism, old players and even Sir Alex refusing to let go of the gooden goose that is Man United. Owner's lack of football acumen and over reliant on non footballing people.
Nah he's talking nonsense, football is more about passion and who wants it more.
Exactly, Ragnick is also a bit of a mystery and has an aura despite no one likely having seen much of his teams, maybe RBL in either stint. I find it funny he's so hotly mentioned but if you mentioned Hasenhuttl (who is still RBL's best coach domestically) people would laugh it off purely because he manages Soton, or mentioned Potter and say 'but he manages Brighton', or Jardim given how Monaco played under him (albeit he seems to be chilling on a paypacket in the middle east now)...both would be miles better than Ragnick who is a DoF these days who steps into help when an interim is needed but doesn't have a great record and why would we want him when we need a hands on coach.
We need a coach who is technical, hands on and can put an organised press in place because we have the players and depth for a range of systems. Even if they come in and do 'ok' without being amazing they at least put something in place for a Ten Haag or Pochettino (or whoever) in the summer.
I think on a temporary basis he'd be a good option, he has a holistic approach and could definitely set in motion some of the changes needed at Old Trafford, both on and off the pitch. He's very influential and there's good reason for that.
I'm less interested in that though and more interested in your question of "If someone came in now what would they do?" because I think there's honestly a lot that could be changed, but also a lot of constraints that make making decisions quite challenging. So it's an interesting question to discuss.
Speaking solely about how I'd approach it, while there's a bounty of quality it doesn't always match up with what I think the best tactical approach is. I strongly believe in having fullbacks who can facilitate both possession and advancement of the ball, yet Telles is an unknown quality, Dalot has never impressed, AWB isn't particularly gifted in the areas I'd want from my FB and Shaw of last season would have been perfect but he's painfully out of form at the moment. Because of my commitment to playing a relatively high line it would make fitting in Maguire challenging (alongside his worrying form), Lindelof isn't particularly suited to it either. Varane is perfect for this but is currently struggling with injuries and new to the club, Bailly technically suits this style due to his physicality and brilliant recovery pace, but in this set up I'd be demanding a lot of my backline in possession and awareness and due to his erratic nature it could be pretty calamitous.
The midfield is a bit of a frankenstein hybrid, with the players as a collective not really suiting any one style nor really complimenting each other either. Matic 5 years ago would have been perfect for the holding midfielder role, but isn't physically up to the standard anymore. Fred and McTominay both inject energy but neither would suit the holding midfielder role, neither really fit the profile of what I'd want in my number 8s either. Pogba is wonderfully talented but has always been the wrong shaped peg, and Fernandes has been brilliant since joining but is also difficult to fit in to many shapes and styles. DVB is still an unknown quality and while he had a good loan spell it's been a long time since Lingard has performed at United.
The front line has a lot of riches with Ronaldo, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, Martial and Sancho able to be called upon, but once again you've got a mishmash of styles and they're not the most complimentary assemble. A lot of them want to play in the same position, Ronaldo is very productive but is 36, Sancho is new to the club and has struggled a little, Rashford's only just coming back from an injury layoff and Martial has been out of form for a long time now.
Adding the squad problems to confidence being at rock bottom and it's quite tricky when it comes to making decisions, having said all that though there's still many things that can be done, even without having the luxury of preseason or a bedding in period. One of the biggest and immediate things that I imagine many caretaker coaches would usher in (certainly Rangnick) would be a different pressing system, certainly one with more intensity and one that is more coordinated. We saw in the Liverpool game that Ole tried to initiate one, and it was an awful, both completely impotent at causing disruption to the opposition and completely exposing the backline. Ideally you'd want time to get it functioning at 100%, but plenty of managers have come into a job midseason and instantly applied a version of their press, and done so with success and without exposing the side defensively. I've seen comments that the current Manchester United squad is incapable of pressing but that's not true, there's certainly a few players who aren't massively suited to it but overall it's perfectly plausible that this could implement a press. I think it's important too, you'd have to go back to the 2015/2016 season to find a league winner that didn't employ a
Another would be use of the ball. Even if the person who comes in isn't fully committed to keeping the ball, if you want to compete with the top sides in the league over the season you need to ensure that you have a lot of the ball, both for attacking and defensive reasons. Someone like Klopp varies massively in his approach to the likes of Tuchel and Guardiola, but even so his Liverpool side have consistently been in the top 3 for possession since his arrival. It's important for both not keeping the pressure off the defense, but also making sure that the team is competent at creating chances while dominating the ball, instead of relying on transitions to create these goalscoring opportunities. You can still capitalise on both of course as the likes of Liverpool do, but the important thing for my side would be the ability to control the game while being able to consistently create opportunities.
These are just a couple of changes that could be made, as I've already written too much on what is a fairly pointless if fun discussion. I've obviously done it through the prism of a certain type of manager, but even someone coming in with a completely different approach still has a lot of options to them, and at this point sorting out the defensive line would probably be one of the biggest priorities.
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