Good post. The “he’s Mourinho mk2” is lazy as. There’s very little in common with them as coaches. The level of quality, know how and innovation between him and Oleis laughable.
Would you take Conte at United?
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Good post. The “he’s Mourinho mk2” is lazy as. There’s very little in common with them as coaches. The level of quality, know how and innovation between him and Oleis laughable.
One thing was sure if you backed Jose with money you spent under ole you won league may be once especially that could have stopped liverpool won their first pl.
Conte loved old players just a myth.He worked with financial constraints so he needed players who could fit into it. He didn't sign old players for huge money with bigger wage packet. He can create teams from strugglers to winners. He didn't need much time either. He won things without being media darlings and bookies favourites.
Conte was once being psychotic towards Mikel.He didn't allow him to train with first team because he opted to play for his country in Olympics. Other than that and Costa saga he was very good in behaviour generally.
Conte loved old players just a myth.He worked with financial constraints so he needed players who could fit into it. He didn't sign old players for huge money with bigger wage packet. He can create teams from strugglers to winners. He didn't need much time either. He won things without being media darlings and bookies favourites.
Conte was once being psychotic towards Mikel.He didn't allow him to train with first team because he opted to play for his country in Olympics. Other than that and Costa saga he was very good in behaviour generally.
It's amazing how clueless some people are when it comes to blind defending of our incompetent manager nobody else would want. Comparing Conte and Ole is the same as comparing Pep and Ole, pretty much. It's so far apart that it doesn't even matter anymore that Pep > Conte. Because both > Ole. You may not like his style, but Ole shouldn't even be mentioned in the same conversation. All this intangible rubbish about cultural reboot and good vibes that Ole has restored is barely worth the credit. Almost any non-toxic manager would have 'restored the good vibes' after the shitshow of Mourinho's final few months. And entertaining football? Some of you must be watching a different team, because aside from a few flashes every couple of games when our billion dollar squad's talent shines through, we have looked just as slow, clumsy and ponderous as we've ever been in the last 8 years.
Was it? did he leave us in a better position than he found it? He was successful at winning. Manchester United instead lost as a result of his success
What does popularity have to do with it? Ole is going to leave United in a better position than Mourinho did because he was a better fit, not a better manager. It has absolutely nothing to do with popularity. United's next appointment should be picked for the same reason. An excellent fit who can take the club even further than Ole ever can and also leave to stronger when he to does leave. Not merely the best cv
This is a joke right? do you not know that when Ole took over the united squad he still had players from Fergie's last squad still starting in the first team? Along with Moyes, LVG and Mourinho buys. To which he was trying to add his own?
Look at the squad now? Is it as imbalanced as haphazard as this laughable part of your post has just claimed? For if it was you would you really want a high caliber cv winner like conte to take over so eagerly 'to win things'? Really?
That's rich coming from you. Eager to bin Ole 6 games in the season as if we are 15th position barely hanging on from the first good cv in sight. On top of insinuating he has a badly assembled squad
Unlike you I'm happy with the status quo. Because the clubs if far better off, from the youth to the balance and quality of the senior squad than when Ole first arrived. I've also not seen ANY reason to start panicking and yearning for new management this early in a season. When we have had a superior start to the last in which we finished second with weaker roster, even to the one the year in which we won our last UCL title. Yet the spine of our team is still in flux and gelling
Furthermore, my desire is for the status quo to be improved on in the future. Not glibly ripped apart, binned and a new one installed just for the sake of short term success via the latest shiny great cv.
Unlike you I don't fancy wining a cup or 2 then not winning again for a long stretch. .I desire sustained competitiveness and success and it has no short cuts. You get on the right course. You stay the course. You improve on the course, then you master the course. You never ever pick another course and expect to succeed yet you are starting from scratch again. That is why even as a huge fan of Conte I'm certain he is the wrong fit for United post Solskjaer. Period
Bullshit. The issue was he club's footballing direction changed 3 times and the club was no better for it, whilst all our rivals added another singular 3 years to their current directions. Yet all of you are all to eager to do the same dumb shit again just because you think Conte is an elite manager
That is because you do not believe how much Conte believes in himself and his methods. Nothing with him is down to mere chance. He knew the kind of club he was taking over and what he had to do to win every one to his way of operating. 13 wins after the fact on the spin tells its own story
That's the problem. You keep confusing people wanting United to pick the right fit for the job to progress the club after all Ole. With supporting Ole.
No.
It isn't a joke. It is a continuation of your hyperbole frankenstein-squad remark. I never said our squad would be a bad squad. I just pointed out, that you being afraid Conte (or Contes potential exit in the future) would turn the current squad into a frankenstein-squad is a speculation from you. A speculation that falls somewhat short because the current squad has its deficiencies as well.
You guys can write the whole "but we are so much better now compared to before" gospel as often as you want - this isn't an either-or situation. Oles squad can be way better than before but still not perfect at the same time. He can be the best manager we have since Fergie while still not being good enough at the same time. I respect everyones opinion about that question, but argueing, that LVG and Mourinho tenures should close the possibility for a top manager for the foreseeable future isn't really convincing. They failed. Ole doesn't seem to fail but he also doesn't seem to know the route to big success. And that is, where the club should be heading towards, correct? The goal isn't "not to fail" or "be better than last year" - the goal is to try to be the best in all competitions.
Mate, lets not get into that mode. I have repeatedly said, I don't want Ole gone right now. Please, read the posts you are replying to and stop projecting your internal pictures of "Ole out people". It doesn't really help the debate at all. My point was, I don't think we should change the manager now, I don't think Conte would be the way to go but the club would be fools to not identify suitable manager options right now. Because if the inevitable happens, we should be prepared.
See, I can respect that take. I don't share it fully, but I can respect it. But I wish, you might at least try to understand people, who are not seeing what you see and who think, we might be better off with a manager switch. You don't have to share that view, but respecting people who do would be a good start.
The core argument of that is absolutely true. I also wouldn't want to change stuff just for changing sakes. But to be honest, I think, that isn't really a good representation of the current situation. Because it isn't like we are impatient after one year of something. Ole has had time and ressources. And he is yet to convince people that he has it in him, to bring us back to the top. If you are convinced he is, well good for you. I respect that as well but this surely isn't the only true opinion one should be allowed to have. Read the criticism that is voiced at Ole, again, you don't have to share it but to just cut the debate by saying people are impatient and blind to progress can only lead to escalation. It is the same the other way around when people are called blind towards Ole's PE teacher-existence. Both is rubbish.
Again, I absolutely respect that take. But I can tell you, and I am seemingly not the only one plus the number is pretty much growing in the last weeks, that I am pretty doubtful that we are on the right course. It is great that you are convinced we are, but to many it doesn't look like it. And that closes the circle to the first snippet - we aren't on "the right course" just because we are better off than with Moyes, LVG and Mourinho. What we know is, we are seemingly not any longer on the wrong course. But are we really on "the right course"? You cant tell, it would be outlandish to question that after quite a few lost semifinals and finals, some shambolic performances and additionally in the last weeks, some very disappointing results.
100% agree with all your views on this topic
Even if that continuity argument is a powerful one, it loses quite a bit as soon as you add Chelsea, the current CL champion and league leader, to our rivals. Plus there is definitely a debate to be had, what holds more weight - continuity or quality. I mean, it is easier to have continuity if the quality is obvious. When it is in doubt, continuity just for the sake of it turn into a nail in the coffin.
The key yard stick in business is success. You can talk about culture and working environment all you like, but ultimately if the business fails, the person at the top of the tree takes the fall. Professionally I am involved in senior management of a succesful business and I can tell you, at board level, performance is the key metric.
Culture is obviously important; in terms of providing an environment for people to fulfil their potential and excel. Senior Management should be at the forefront of creating that culture and environment, not a product of it. The key point for me is this: however good the culture and environment, if the people in senior roles don't have the ability to do the job, you can't put it there and they will, ultimately, be found out and will fail. Your suggestion seems to be that in the right environment, anyone can succeed, even if they lack the necessary ability, and I don't accept that.
Conte is a divisive manager and I understand why some don't like him, but the controversy around him highlights the general point for me. Sir Alex wasn't particularly likeable. He disposed of players when they were past their best without sentiment. I suspect he pissed a lot of people off, but he created a winning culture. Roy Keane as at the heart of a lot of that, and again, I suspect he wasn't necessarily likeable either but he was a winner. He lead and people followed. Conte would bring a winning culture and if I were a player at United I would love that, because ultimately, I want to win.
The United way under Fergie was to win. It was all about success, at pretty much any cost. I'm not sure what people seem to think it is now? Seems like a vacuous, hard to pin down "culture" by which the club or some fans justify continued mediocrity as we chase a mythical idea of perfect football, somehow taking the view that United is in some way different to every other top club in how it does, and should operate.
In any event, for me, looking back is pointless. The game has changed in the decade or so since Sir Alex retired and will continue to at pace. The club needs to recognise this or it'll continue to stagnate.
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Totally agree with this. Persisting with something that isn't working does not lead to success. It's nothing but blind hope. Eventually when everyone realises this (and they always do, in the end) the longer you've plodded on, the longer it takes to unravel.
I also don't think appointing a new manager is necessarily the change in direction some people seem to think. People still seem to think a manager comes in and runs the club from top to bottom which clearly isn't the case any more. Modern clubs should (and I suspect most do) have a structure which takes into account changes in managers every 3 to 5 years. The continuity comes from the framework and structure around him with the various other staff members who are a constant and are likely to be in post longer term.
Surely the whole point of appointing the like of Fletcher and Murtough is to allow the club to be agile and fit for purpose on issues like this?
How about you claiming I'm pushing a shit fantasy story ? Or insulating then only good reason I have to not want Conte as the next United manager after Ole is because I'm a rabid Ole supporter?
First, Conte permanently binned the back 4 from his philosophy at Juventus resulting in serial success. Even at Chelsea he was never wedded to it so binned it in favor of a back 3 pretty quickly and won 13 on the spin in the league. His biggest success with Juventus, Chelsea, Inter and the Italy national team have all come with his favored back 3 wing back formations. At each of those clubs he had 4 players to call on in those roles who did the job as well as each other. I fail to see how it is a stretch to state he'd' require 4 at United, when similar to Klopp there arguably the most important part of his entire set up
Second. The reason Conte would need 4 excellent wing backs would be for his system to work best even when he rotates. I never implied that he'd have to make 4 new recruits.
Again with the condescending tone yet you complain about it.....
[ Plus it is nice of you to list the managers who didn't really get us anywhere, just feels a bit inconsequential to stop the list at Ole. ]
Ole is the current manager, my list cannot realistically extend beyond him obviously.
[ you seem to feel cosy with him around and have bought in into "some underlying plan".]
Solksjaer took over with United in 7th, a bloated imbalanced squad assembled by Ferhie, Moyes, LVG and Mourinho, with a very unhappy dressing room. In that period he has improved the final position every season, restored dressing room harmony, reinstated a path way to the first team for youth, harmonized recruitment and built our best squad in terms of personnel since Fergie retired, made United players fitter, restored its tradition of being an excellent transition team and restored attacking football, even if inconsistently performance wise. United going forward as a result will be much stronger when he leaves than when he found it. The ONLY differences between you and me is I don't count that as "nothing" and "an absence of any underlying plan" just because he is yet to win a trophy, and I do not see any good reason for United to hire any manager who doesn't have the same principles, just because they are known for winning. Which has absolutely nothing to 'being cosy'.
Why do you keep insisting on ignoring why he employed Victor Moses as a right wing back? Conte requires his wing backs to:
a) be at least competent defensively
b) as comfortable as a winger high up the pitch because they are the sole source of width and creativity form out wide for the team
c) posses the engine to get up and down the wing all game long
AWB for example would struggle to replicate what a Victor Moses could in a Conte system because he simply isn't good enough at attacking. Dalot too because he has absolutely no clue defensively most of the time, whilst being excellent in attack.
Whilst a Victor Moses is very identical to an Ashley Young in style and application so was never ever going to struggle to adopt to that role
In our current team, Williams and Laird would probably have the best chance to operate that way but Conte likes very mature young players which neither of them is yet.
In fact AWB would have a chance to be used as a center half, assuming Conte liked him. Just never as a wing back
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I can't understand why people insist with this straw man of wanting continuity for continuities sake plus pitting continuity against quality. There is not a single person who wants it and it isn't an either or situation.
Just because chopping and changing managers regardless of style, works for chelsea, doesn't mean it can work for Manchester united. It's already been tried 4 times since Fergie without reaping sustained success. So how about us trying to upgrade the manager in the job, with one who does the very same things to a higher degree? Is that too much to ask?
Yes, a manager who is competing with Juergen Klopp and Pep Guardiola deliberately losing games against Liverpool and Arsenal because he wanted to show the fans that a back four doesn't work.
Totally believable.
Don’t agree but you do you.
Is is fact that the 3 times we have change managers since Fergie, based on there cvs rather than whether they could improve on what the last boss was trying to do, resulted in the squad that solsjaer took over. With recruits from Fergie to Mourinho all recruited with different intents and purposes. The definition of a frankenstein squad
It is also fact Conte will demand squad suited to his 3-4-3/3-5-2. Yet the incumbent United managers has almost assembled a squad perfectly suited to 4-2-3-1/4-3-3., which will be a serious disparity.
I can respect that one can remain unconvinced
I believe it can only remain unconvincing if one does not see how moving from Moyes to Mourinho, just using the cv, paying no regard to footballing style, club culture and preferred method of play of the said manager's, and how they could fit the United's job because of such things, contributed to their ultimate failure, of both the manager's and what United was looking to do by recruiting them.
The goal is always to be better than the last year. The next win. That is how sustained success is achieved. Its not done by standing still and its not done by repeatedly changing the plan to achieve it. Sustained success is best achieved by improving the existing plan till perfection of it is achieved.
then don't be accusing me of posting doom and gloom because I find no sense in recruiting a Conte after Ole.....
We already agree on the fact the club should be prepared. We only differ on who should make the list and why.
You get me very wrong, I respect peoples differing takes on the issue. I simply don't appreciate though when people we don't agree with start accusing us of loving mediocrity and being die hard fans of the incumbent manager as the only reasons we could possibly have the views we hold.
But you are being impatient. You are willing to rip apart and get rid of the current direction for any other plan (i.e Conte) that has worked else where just because the current man over seeing the plan, isn't an overwhelming success with it.
That is the problem right there. You keep conflating Ole being able to bring us to the top again with us wanting the next man who takes over from him to be able to complete the job he started, rather than start a fresh with a new direction. The two are not inter changeable. Solskjaer has been able to do better than two vastly superior managers because he was a better fit for the job. Thus some of us want the next manager to be as good a fit whilst also being a man with a top cv, that Ole lacks.
League tables don't lie for they tell the true state of a club. If we were on the wrong course our league position would not improve every year when the league ends. I believe it outlandish to give up 6 games into a season. Yet we have had far worse starts than this and still achieved great things as a club
The issue is many prefer silver ware to what actually matters. So when they see no silver ware they believe everything is wrong and zero progress is being achieved. So the first sign of a bad patch of results will have them with knives out seeking strings to cut
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I'm certain its more believable than believing manager who has achieved sustained success every where with a back 3 suddenly reverted to a back 4 at chelsea.
There isn't a right fit mate. We go with the best available always. At times you hit a jackpot or you don't. That's why clubs go with a director or committee or whatever.
football has moved on but you haven't.
As a non United fan I hope Conte doesn't darken your door. You'd have been favourites this season had he done so.
Yes it would be short term (ish) most likely but just do what pretty much every other big club/team does, win, go your separate ways when it goes stale, move on and win again. As soon as you forget the idea of long term managers/another Fergie the better off a club you'll be for it.
This is happening far too often on here now. Not sure if its stupidity, purposeful ignorance, ignorance, or all three. If you dare say you don't like a potential Ole replacement it means you must worship at the alter of Ole and are clueless.
Precisely this. I mean, it's okay to say I don't like him but the arguments we have had to hear to reject one of the best available tacticians, is just ridiculous.
I think one of the main difference between United and Chelsea is the owner.
Abrahmovic is literally there watching the match - getting pissed at the results, feeling he needs to make something right be it with the players or managers.
The Glazers don't really give a shit here, so we got to be more careful. We can't necessarily guarantee that our owners are able to make the right/more thought out decisions like Abrahmavic can.
i don't get this. Why would anyone want Conte? First thing he will do is change to a back 5 and then he will leave in 2 years. No thanks...
I would say your a right wing back away from being suited to that formation (which isn't the blanket defensive formation people it out to be). That formation allows tactical nuances that simply can't be done with a back four like effectively having two right or left back's in build up which bring me to....
Shaw and Telles are tailor made to be a LCB/LWB combo. Also most of your attackers prefer to play more centrally and wingbacks hogging the sidelines would allow them to play closer to the centre and cause havoc.
This isn't true at all. The likes of Barcelona, Ajax and even Bayern have proven this over and over again. Going for what fits best over just whats the best available
You certainly wish that was the case. Consistent Success in football has almost never come via short cuts and playing the lottery.
Makes sense whilst Ronaldo is here. Conte is known for getting results fast, which is what we need with this squad. In 3 years time we can look for the long term appointment that isn’t currently available. I’d take the worst defensive football if it brought us a title. We should all be hungry to win big trophies at this point.
Why do you folks insist on this second equally ridiculous straw man of 'long term managers''. What part of directional continuity is so hard for y'all to understand? Why do you think the likes of Barcelona went from Pep Guardiola, through Tito Villanova, Gerardo Martino and then Luis Enirque in their most recent consistently successful spell yet managers with far superior cvs were readily available? Do people seriously believe it was to pursue longevity of reign or done on a mere whim?
Pretty much. I think its willful stubbornness. People way to stubborn to believe others cant think differently from them, with good reason.
You mean , the same Barca who has consistently gone for wrong managers in the last few years ? Ajax again has also tried variety of managers and many of them ended up quite average outside.
Bayern is an exception. It's kind of unique monopoly and the other clubs just agree to it. With that monopoly, they can always keep the moral high position and no one outside of Bayern gives a damn about it.
Pretty much the only successful Barca manager after Pep was Enrique. The rest failed to various degrees, so this example is awful.
Even Bayern doesn't fit this example. They went from Jupp to Pep to Carlo and all of them play drastically different football. They sacked Carlo in the first 2 months of his second season. Jupp was hired for the end of the season, and Kovac came next season whom was a shit appointment and just like Carlo was sacked early in his second season. Flick was then hired as an interim manager before coming permanent.
Conte is a good manager but that's not all you need to win trophies. Good player recruitment is also very crucial and Ole has done that part well but then we also need to maintain it. Can Conte do that?
What is this nonsense about Conte? He spent a considerable amount of time at Juve, only leaving when Juve's board kept fecking with him in terms of transfers and selling players (a problem he wouldn't have here). He was sacked by Roman (wow, Roman sacking someone, imagine my shock). And he left Inter after a similar dispute as the one with Juve.
You people have to undeerstand. We're not gonna get another Sir Alex, not in a long while at least. So stop dreaming about the +20 years manager or whatever. This is the big problem with this club and its fanbase. They're always looking for the next SAF-like managers and they'll take any mediocre one like Ole or Moyes simply because they believe these people would stay here a long time. We need to forget about the idea of another SAF or Busby, they're one in a million. Let's start thinking rationally about this stuff.
Tito villanalova won the league post Pep then ill health failed him. Enrique won everything in sight his first time out, even retaining the league title before bowing out. Literally only Martino in between the two completely failed. So what on earth are you on about?
Its obvious I'm talking about Barca when they actual had a succession plan for their manager seat. Not the one that has been doing the very thing some of you want done with our manager seat at United. Utterly plan less managerial recruitment
Every time they have picked manager's who didn't fit the ethos of the club it hasn't gone well for them. Which is the entire point......
Bayern are not remotely an exception. They too have picked the wrong manager for their ethos and long term plans from time to time. The only reason they never enter consistent doldrums is they are rather quick to learn form their mistakes
What has become apparently clear is we have many fans who have learnt absolutely nothing from our recent history with managers since Fergie left.
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