Would you swap Martial for Messi?

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Obiorahking_ said:
There is not one top team in the EPL has not had a fantastic performance against. Not 1.
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Not that this takes away from the debate, because I would drive Messi to Manchester myself and swap him with DDG, Martial, and Shaw at once...
But has Messi ever played fantastic against Chelsea? I can't think of any games off the top of my head where he played fantastic. Unless I'm forgetting some.
 
I would swap Martial for Messi without hesitation because in the end it's all Man United.

129104946 said:
Not that this takes away from the debate, because I would drive Messi to Manchester myself and swap him with DDG, Martial, and Shaw at once...
But has Messi ever played fantastic against Chelsea? I can't think of any games off the top of my head where he played fantastic. Unless I'm forgetting some.
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The one where his theatrics got Del Horno sent off ?
 
129104946 said:
Not that this takes away from the debate, because I would drive Messi to Manchester myself and swap him with DDG, Martial, and Shaw at once...
But has Messi ever played fantastic against Chelsea? I can't think of any games off the top of my head where he played fantastic. Unless I'm forgetting some.
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He's never scored against Chelsea and they've usually been able to keep him quiet. Iniesta on the other hand :lol:
 
All this comparison of Martial to 20 year old Ronaldo... if we were to ever pass up on the "Martial for Messi deal", let's just hope that Prime Martial plays for us and not Real Madrid.
 
Yes! I'm not trying to disrespect people who picks Martial. But Messi is no brain choice to me. no debate!! Messi isn't just world class. But beyond world class. You are hardly to see players like Ronaldo and Messi who can maintain their madness performance in a long period of time. It is still so unlikely to predict if Martial can achieve Messi's level.
 
Don't know if Messi could handle 56 games a year anymore. Having some injury issues lately. Still would do the trade in a heartbeat. Martial:1 season with decent performance. Messi: a legend.
 
Pexbo said:
I'd rather 15 years of Martial vs the 5 latter years of Messi which is the point of the thread really.
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It's a tricky swap since Messi could easily go downhill from 29-34 considering how long he's been performing at the highest level. Different story if Messi was couple years younger, a similar talent to Martial isn't hard to come by every 5 years. But a talent like Messi may take decades to show up again.
 
All this 20 year old Martial was better than 20 year old Ronaldo was bollocks. 20 year old Nani was better than 20 year old Ronaldo, 20 year old Rooney was better than 20 year old Ronaldo. What gives?
 
For me this debate isn't about Martial's potential at all.

Swapping Martial for Messi would be a pragmatic move. Not swapping Martial for Messi would be a romantic one.

I'm a romantic, and I want to see our talented players grow and flourish with the club in its moments of tragedy and triumph.

I've no such attachment to Messi and he'd have no attachment to us at this stage in his career. We'd win trophies with him which would be great, but I'd rather forego a couple of titles if it could be Martial and Rashford lifting them instead.
 
Pexbo said:
I'll take this to a new thread as its spoiling the Veratti thread currently.

Basically, I said I wouldn't swap anyone in the world for Martial - specifically Messi. Some have agreed, others view it as an "absurd opinion". I'm well aware that a lot of people will give it the same reaction and frankly I could care less, I'm more interested in what the general consensus is on it.

I appreciate the view that it's Lionel Messi, a once in 5 generations player and, in my own view, the greatest player to have ever kicked a ball.

My opinion though is that while I don't expect Martial to ever reach anything like his heights (He'll be a regular 30 goal a season player rather than a regular 60 goal a season player), I'd rather have a 20 year old Martial and watch his development arc (and hopefully the teams development arc) like what happened with Ronaldo, than have a 29 year old Messi who I expect to have another 2 or 3 years as the player he currently is before he evolves into a world class attacking midfielder with lesser figures.


If we could get a poll that would be great @Damien @Raoul
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I just spent 20 minutes on google reading up on the difference between "could" and "couldn't" in that phrase. It confused me way more than it should have and i'm still not convinced which way it should/shouldn't be. I need sleep.

Messi of 5 years ago for Martial as of right now then I'd take that deal all day. I'm by no means expecting Martial to go on and become anywhere near the player Messi is, but he's ours and I can't wait to watch him grow before he inevitably ends up at Madrid.
 
liamp said:
From an on-the-pitch perspective, I'd probably agree with you. Messi's age definitely plays a huge factor, as does the long 12 year wait since the last time we've signed a young player with the current ability and upside of Martial.

I'd still take Messi because of the immense impact he'd have on the club in other areas. We're already a marketing juggernaut, but adding Messi would take it to an entirely new level. Financially, you'd see huge gains from adding the most recognizable individual player on the planet. The club would be able to gain traction in South America where the Spanish clubs reign supreme, which would hopefully prove fruitful when the club actually decides to start heavily recruiting from that area to try to find the next generation of talent. There are just too many off-the-pitch benefits from taking on a player like Messi that can't be ignored.
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You feel it makes more sense to keep Martial because of things that matter on the pitch but you'd still swap him for Messi because of the off field marketing reasons?
 
I wouldn't. A player with Martials talent is extremely rare and 15 years of him is worth more than a few messi years.
 
It's insane that you think Martial is some kind of God. This is the way midtable clubs talk when they land someone talented, suddenly he's the greatest thing that exists, ever has existed, or could ever potentially exist. This is Man Utd, you've had great players in the very recent past and so all necessary perspective is there at your fingertips. Could he get in a team ahead of Giggs, Cantona, RVP, Ronaldo, Van Nistelroy as he is now? Absolutely not. Might he be in that bracket in the future? Perhaps.

The problem with Martial is that he is neither one thing nor the other at this stage of his career. Not quite a winger, not quite a no.10, not really a striker. Talented,yes, but I don't know how he is going to pan out.
 
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Are we expecting Martial to become as good as Messi? Not really, so my head says I should probably want to swap. I just...don't.

Then again, at least we know he wouldn't bugger off to Madrid after 3 years.
 
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No. Messi is possibly the best of all time (though not my favorite, I just felt greater affinity with Maradona). Martial is 20. In itself not a reason to object. But he's one of ours and when in doubt, I'm always going to favor the one we have.
 
It's like that time when RAWK posters had their 'Would you swap Sterling with Messi'. We all laughed and laughed even more when he got himself a transfer to Citeh.
 
Next we will be comparing Januzaj under Moyes to CR7 at Real Madrid.

Martial is a long way from any top forwards, leave alone Messi, CR7 or that kind of league. He is 19/20 yrs and there are no guarantees as to what kind of player he will eventually become. There are loads of players with potential out there who do wonders at an early age. How they step up from that level is what makes them a top player or yet another player.

Martial is potentially world class. But he is not there yet.

So in short Messi anyday as of now.
 
Ruffian said:
It's insane that you think Martial is some kind of God. This is the way midtable clubs talk when they land someone talented, suddenly he's the greatest thing that exists, ever has existed, or could ever potentially exist. This is Man Utd, you've had great players in the very recent past and so all necessary perspective is there at your fingertips. Could he get in a team ahead of Giggs, Cantona, RVP, Ronaldo, Van Nistelroy as he is now? Absolutely not. Might he be in that bracket in the future? Perhaps.

The problem with Martial is that he is neither one thing nor the other at this stage of his career. Not quite a winger, not quite a no.10, not really a striker. Talented,yes, but I don't know how he is going to pan out.
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I think the question is whether you'd like to see a definite future 8/10 player who could possibly hit 9/10 developed by the club and watch his development with us over the next decade or whether you'd like to have a 10/10 player in the latter stages of his peak for a shorter period of time.


It's been called romantic in this thread but the thing I have enjoyed the most watching united over the past 20+ years is watching players break onto the scene and develop into world class players. Watching Ronaldo grow in his formative years was far more satisfying for me as a fan than watching Van Persie come in and fire us to a title.
 
I reckon Messi has at least another 5 decent years left in him. He's someone who could actually drop back into the midfield and still be world class. Would guarantee us silverware. In short, @Pexbo you're better than this.
 
I don't get the people shitting on @Pexbo. Surely the amount of mixed responses tells you it's at least worthy of discussion.
 
Man of Leisure said:
I reckon Messi has at least another 5 decent years left in him. He's someone who could actually drop back into the midfield and still be world class. Would guarantee us silverware. In short, @Pexbo you're better than this.
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A better transfer muppet? I fail to see how it's an issue that someone might value the experience of watching a young player with a huge ceiling realise that potential at the club he supports rather than swapping that experience for putting a genuinely great player straight into the side for instant gratification.
 
If we're chucking around insults about ridiculous threads, I'd say the reactions are more of a reflection of how our fan base has changed. Ask 10 or 15 years ago whether you'd prefer to see us develop a great young player or buy world class, I think you'd have a different reaction. It's all about instant gratification now.
 
Pexbo said:
A better transfer muppet? I fail to see how it's an issue that someone might value the experience of watching a young player with a huge ceiling realise that potential at the club he supports rather than swapping that experience for putting a genuinely great player straight into the side for instant gratification.
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Well, when you put it in those terms it's debatable. In fact, I might even go with the former. But, you brought Messi into the conversation. Hands down, the best player in the world (possibly the best ever) and still in his prime. Guess it really depends on if we're talking a year or two of Messi or say, like 5 years. If it's 5 years of Messi vs 10 years of Martial, it's a non-starter for me. Cantona was only with us for 5 years and look at the influence he's had. Players would come to United just for the opportunity to play with Messi, we'd be guaranteed to win silverware, and us fans could say we saw one of the best ever to lace up his boots, play on a weekly basis for Manchester United.
 
How many posts of yours do you want me to find that advocate us spending $200m this summer or those which justify VG's spending in the last two seasons? Don't get antsy because you created a ridiculous thread and it is rightly being mocked.
 
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Ruffian said:
It's insane that you think Martial is some kind of God. This is the way midtable clubs talk when they land someone talented, suddenly he's the greatest thing that exists, ever has existed, or could ever potentially exist. This is Man Utd, you've had great players in the very recent past and so all necessary perspective is there at your fingertips. Could he get in a team ahead of Giggs, Cantona, RVP, Ronaldo, Van Nistelroy as he is now? Absolutely not. Might he be in that bracket in the future? Perhaps.

The problem with Martial is that he is neither one thing nor the other at this stage of his career. Not quite a winger, not quite a no.10, not really a striker. Talented,yes, but I don't know how he is going to pan out.
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:nono:
 
Insanity said:
How many post of your posts do you want me to find that are advocate we spend $200m this summer or those which are justify VG's spending in the last two seasons? Don't get antsy because you created a ridiculous thread and it is rightly being mocked.
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Can you find a post where I suggest we sign a player at a sacrifice of a young star? A large part of the reason I want Zlatan is to mentor Rashford for a season or two.
 
Pexbo said:
Can you find a post where I suggest we sign a player at a sacrifice of a young star? A large part of the reason I want Zlatan is to mentor Rashford for a season or two.
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The same way Schweinsteiger was supposed to be our leader and mentor? How did that work out?
How did Scholes mentor-ship help Cleverley or Anderson?
How did Rooney or VP's mentorship help Welbeck?

This 'mentor-ship' thing is hugely overrated. If a player has talent, then it is on the player and the coaching staff to hone his talent and maximize potential. Sitting on the bench and watching anyone is not as great a help as it is made out to be.

I love Martial as much as any other United fan, but it's Messi we are talking about replacing him with, not just any other player. This is arguably the greatest player in history in his absolute prime. It's a no brainier.
 
Insanity said:
The same way Schweinsteiger was supposed to be our leader and mentor? How did that work out?
How did Scholes mentor-ship help Cleverley or Anderson?
How did Rooney or VP's mentorship help Welbeck?

This 'mentor-ship' thing is hugely overrated. If a player has talent, then it is on the player and the coaching staff to hone his talent and maximize potential. Sitting on the bench and watching anyone is not as great a help as it is made out to be.

I love Martial as much as any other United fan, but it's Messi we are talking about replacing him with, not just any other player. This is arguably the greatest player in history in his absolute prime. It's a no brainier.
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And in 5 years when Martial is hitting peak and Messi is fading, how do you think you'll feel about that?
 
Insanity is right, it's not just another top player thats being suggested, it's the best player of all time, as much I prefer nurturing over instant gratification signings, I would feel it would be an absolute priviledge to see Messi run out at OT for United for even just a single game.
 
Pexbo said:
And in 5 years when Martial is hitting peak and Messi is fading, how do you think you'll feel about that?
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Great. If we are assuming that Martial will fulfill his potential and become a great player, then I am within my right to assume that one of the best players ever will give us 5 quality years. It's a chance of witnessing this magician, Messi, in a United shirt for the next 5 years and seeing us win plenty of things in that period. I would be delighted.
 
Pexbo said:
If we're chucking around insults about ridiculous threads, I'd say the reactions are more of a reflection of how our fan base has changed. Ask 10 or 15 years ago whether you'd prefer to see us develop a great young player or buy world class, I think you'd have a different reaction. It's all about instant gratification now.
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You're asking if we would turn down arguably the greatest player to have ever played football in favour of a young player who may or may not fulfill the promise he showed in his first season for us. I'd be amazed if previous generations of United fans didn't question the merit of that proposition too.
 
Wow. Pretty sure that every single manager currently in charge of a club would let Barcelona take any one of their players in exchange for Messi. Without a second of deliberation.
 
Funny how I was thinking about this exact question yesterday before the thread was made. Personally I'd swap them yes.
 
Varun said:
You feel it makes more sense to keep Martial because of things that matter on the pitch but you'd still swap him for Messi because of the off field marketing reasons?
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I think condensing the off-field reasons down to just the marketing benefit would be over-simplifying it. As a supporter, I generally take a longer-term view and I think having Martial at his age will be more beneficial in the long-run than having Messi at his. That being said, I'm pretty ignorant of the off-the-pitch stuff but I think the massive benefit of having someone like Messi would be obvious even to someone like me.
 
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