Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Mainoldo]

This. I wonder how many games these poch crowd actually watched under the Poch Spurs era. I am not saying Poch is a poor coach or anything, only trying to put some perspective here.

Some of these tactics crowd have gone so far one way that they cannot see anything other than Poch.

I fear that if this pressure is too much and Ole is sacked with Poch in, we will see a 2 month bounce and they will all be like I told you so... then the same issues will crop up again and they will say.. Ed Woodward has not backed him.

2 years later than when the rest of the fan based realised this.

Is this your opinion or the views of others your running with and promoting?

You said you wonder if these fans actually watch Poch. That would assume to me that you do. So feel free to express your concerns besides the over used no trophy thing.

Also this two month bounce thing? I mean what Ole did was an anomaly, probably only topped by Di Matteo and I don’t think even he had as good of an unbeaten run than Ole.

What issues? The board not backing a manager? Maybe we should stop believing for a manager to succeed he needs a 100 percent success rate in the market. It hardly ever happens. We might start judging managers accordingly then.

 

[romufc]

Is this your opinion or the views of others your running with and promoting?

You said you wonder if these fans actually watch Poch. That would assume to me that you do. So feel free to express your concerns besides the over used no trophy thing.

Also this two month bounce thing? I mean what Ole did was an anomaly, probably only topped by Di Matteo and I don’t think even he had as good of an unbeaten run than Ole.

What issues? The board not backing a manager? Maybe we should stop believing for a manager to succeed he needs a 100 percent success rate in the market. It hardly ever happens. We might start judging managers accordingly then.

Let me express my concerns to you.

1. One of the worst records against the top 6. Even with such a good spurs team, he has failed to win crucial games.

2. 18/19 - 13 losses in the PL
3. 19/20 - 3 wins in 12 PL games before being sacked.

What are your reasons for wanting Ole sacked? clearly results dont matter? Finish 3rd last season doesn't matter.

Stop believing? Maybe you need to look at how the last 3/4 titles have been won?

Pep, wanted a keeper got 2 because 1 was wrong.

Got defenders, attackers and midfielders.

Klopp, got his type of players.

When was the last time a manager came and won the title without getting the signings he wants?

 

[rotherham_red]

This. I wonder how many games these poch crowd actually watched under the Poch Spurs era. I am not saying Poch is a poor coach or anything, only trying to put some perspective here.

Some of these tactics crowd have gone so far one way that they cannot see anything other than Poch.

I fear that if this pressure is too much and Ole is sacked with Poch in, we will see a 2 month bounce and they will all be like I told you so... then the same issues will crop up again and they will say.. Ed Woodward has not backed him.

2 years later than when the rest of the fan based realised this.

Almost exactly how I feel.

Except, if Poch's experience at Spurs was anything to go by, it would be an initial struggle to settle, followed by steady progression, rather than any immediate bounce.

He's a damn good coach and manager, and if Ole hadn't done as well as he had then he would have been at the top of my list to see what he could do once he got us Top 4.

However, Ole has essentially done that job already and outside of the latter absolutely capitulating this year, I think we owe it to ourselves to see how it pans out with Ole at the end of this season, and if he's made a good fist of the league season this year, we actually properly back him for once!

However, with all the noises that are coming out, it will in all likelihood, be Poch who comes in next no matter what. I hope that he proves me wrong and is the manager who gets us back to properly challenging and winning the big trophies, but that experience at Spurs didn't exactly fill me with hope.

 

[Mainoldo]

Let me express my concerns to you.

1. One of the worst records against the top 6. Even with such a good spurs team, he has failed to win crucial games.

2. 18/19 - 13 losses in the PL
3. 19/20 - 3 wins in 12 PL games before being sacked.

What are your reasons for wanting Ole sacked? clearly results dont matter? Finish 3rd last season doesn't matter.

Stop believing? Maybe you need to look at how the last 3/4 titles have been won?

Pep, wanted a keeper got 2 because 1 was wrong.

Got defenders, attackers and midfielders.

Klopp, got his type of players.

When was the last time a manager came and won the title without getting the signings he wants?

I thought you was going to explain how his tactics don’t involve wingers. How he makes late substitutes and is very ridged with his philosophy. But okay.

So VVD is not going to have an impact on Liverpool’s season no? City get off to a flying start have they? Did you watch there performance against Arsenal? Probably not.

This Pep goalkeeper myth. They signed a keeper who was crap for about £17m pounds (doesn’t even make the top 10 list of most expensive goal keepers). They then replaced him with a far better keeper and a larger fee. That’s hardly astonishing backing. In Jose’s first season we gave him a £30m CB in his second season we gave him a £30m CB in his third season he wanted a £60m CB. I think we have a right to ask him question. Don’t you?

Klopp got his type of players? He wanted Brandt, Werner, Fekir, Lewis and Harvetz. I didn’t see any of those players in his team on Saturday.

 

[Bobcat]

So Solskjaer should be given benefit of doubt for finishing the remaining 18 games with 3W,3D,12L because that job of saving teams from relegation is different from managing top sides like United and Liverpool. I would like to agree there. And there wouldn't be any argument had his job ended with relegating Cardiff.

But the next season his side was one of the better teams in the Championship (Lifted the Championship trophy the season prior) was heavily refurbished (17 new players signed) under Solskjaer's supervision. Expectations were to get them immediately back into the Premier League (and not saving them from being relegated to the League one), which one would think should dovetail perfectly with "Solskjaer's philosophy". And yet his returns were a dismal 2W,2D,3L until they parted company because of "difference in philosophy". It's not as if he didn't get the opportunity of a different job profile than what he was hired on. He was a failure on both counts. And that is why no semi-decent Football club looks at him as their managerial candidate.


Heck even Toronto FC took a pass, for Christ's sake.

And they kept being shite after he was sacked, ending up at 11th that season, 8th the next season and 12th in the season after that. Some of the transfers he made were horrible, others actually turned out decent and they became regulars there long after he was sacked.

Plenty of teams take a small trip up the the PL only to plummet right back down again. They first got promoted again in 17/18, only to get relegated again the following season.

 

[romufc]

Almost exactly how I feel.

Except, if Poch's experience at Spurs was anything to go by, it would be an initial struggle to settle, followed by steady progression, rather than any immediate bounce.

He's a damn good coach and manager, and if Ole hadn't done as well as he had then he would have been at the top of my list to see what he could do once he got us Top 4.

However, Ole has essentially done that job already and outside of the latter absolutely capitulating this year, I think we owe it to ourselves to see how it pans out with Ole at the end of this season, and if he's made a good fist of the league season this year, we actually properly back him for once!

However, with all the noises that are coming out, it will in all likelihood, be Poch who comes in next no matter what. I hope that he proves me wrong and is the manager who gets us back to properly challenging and winning the big trophies, but that experience at Spurs didn't exactly fill me with hope.

I agree, Poch is a good coach and manager but we have also seen that to win the league, you also need to be adaptable. Is Poch adaptable? No?

Also, one thing that gets me is Poch did it without any money... yea he had no money for 1 season. The rest of the time, he has spent money on signings. Now lets also look at these.

 

[romufc]

I thought you was going to explain how his tactics don’t involve wingers. How he makes late substitutes and is very ridged with his philosophy. But okay.

So VVD is not going to have an impact on Liverpool’s season no? City get off to a flying start have they? Did you watch there performance against Arsenal? Probably not.

This Pep goalkeeper myth. They signed a keeper who was crap for about £17m pounds (doesn’t even make the top 10 list of most expensive goal keepers). They then replaced him with a far better keeper and a larger fee. That’s hardly astonishing backing. In Jose’s first season we gave him a £30m CB in his second season we gave him a £30m CB in his third season he wanted a £60m CB. I think we have a right to ask him question. Don’t you?

Klopp got his type of players? He wanted Brandt, Werner, Fekir, Lewis and Harvetz. I didn’t see any of those players in his team on Saturday.

I am not going to give you a low down on what his tactics are, this depends on the players available to managers.

What has VVD and City's results got to do with Poch? Or the question I asked about why you want Ole sacked? Which you seem to ignore.

So Pep's keeper story is a myth, but Jose signed 2 CB's who wouldn't be in top 10 of CB's either, but he isnt allowed to replace with a better one but City are allowed? How many full backs and CB's has he signed?

I never knew you have Klopp on speed dial to know he wanted these players? So you saying in 2014 Klopp wanted Brandt, Werner, Fekir, Lewis, Havertz to win the league?

When he took over, he signed Mane, Gini, VVD, Salah, Robertson, Ox, Allison, Keita, Fabinho - I do see these players in the league though.

Also, Klopp also didnt fancy players and they got rid of players such as Benteke, Ibe, Skrtel, Allen, Lucas, Sakho and the like to make room for other players.

 

[Mainoldo]

I am not going to give you a low down on what his tactics are, this depends on the players available to managers.

What has VVD and City's results got to do with Poch? Or the question I asked about why you want Ole sacked? Which you seem to ignore.

So Pep's keeper story is a myth, but Jose signed 2 CB's who wouldn't be in top 10 of CB's either, but he isnt allowed to replace with a better one but City are allowed? How many full backs and CB's has he signed?

I never knew you have Klopp on speed dial to know he wanted these players? So you saying in 2014 Klopp wanted Brandt, Werner, Fekir, Lewis, Havertz to win the league?

When he took over, he signed Mane, Gini, VVD, Salah, Robertson, Ox, Allison, Keita, Fabinho - I do see these players in the league though.

Also, Klopp also didnt fancy players and they got rid of players such as Benteke, Ibe, Skrtel, Allen, Lucas, Sakho and the like to make room for other players.

It does depend on what he has available he also plays a mix of forms tins which I assume he will do accordingly to players too.

Well I don’t know what questions you was asking for what answers. So I answered how I perceived your questions. Why don’t I want Ole. Well in simple he’s not a high enough quality of manager to have us competing at the top end. What a coach his level. Frank Lampard.

You got Jose on speed dial seeing as you seem to know what he wants. Full backs Mendy, Kyle Walker, Danielo, Cancelo and Angelino. CB’s 4. He’s spent a lot of money but he’s also shipped out what he doesn’t want. He hasn’t got Phil Jones sitting on his arse earning 80k plus a week.

Klopp point answers my last point. If we wasn’t offering Juan Mata and Piererra extension deals maybe we would room on the books for extra additions. Maybe if Jose new he needed a new CB, maybe not go offering Rojo new bumper deals. You might get left on your arse like City and Kompany but there’s room there for additions. Like signing Ake and Diaz in one window.

 

[lysglimt]

If winning 10 points in 14 matches is free fall then what will you call winning 12 points in 18 matches?




Yep 9 points from first 7 matches in the championship which took them to 17th place - somewhere the owner Vincent Tan didn't want to be when he was expecting Solskjaer to take them immediately back to the Premier League after all the backing he got with 17 new players ( many from his friend Jim Solbakken's agency) despite finishing 20th and relegating the club.



They didn't have United at OT in the next game and I'm not sure how that affects anything or even explains your own contradiction there besides callously alleging me of "polishing the truth" while half-ly accepting that I didn't. Not sure what this incoherent rambling was about.

My Point being - Cardiff would have been on a relegation spot regardless of who was in charge within weeks with City and United away in the next weeks - you make it sound like Cardiff were nowhere near a relegation battle when he took charge and then suddenly OGS sunk an otherwise well-run club. Cardiff was a disaster when OGS took charge - they were a disaster with OGS in charge. He didn't do a very good job I agree - but the club was in complete turmoil when he took charge.

Oh and drop comments like incoheren rambling just because someone doesn't see it exactly the same way you did.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Poch only makes sense if you genuinely believe Ole isn't good enough to get top 4 at United. But he's already got 3rd with a young, injury decimated squad last season.

Since the end of the January window we've been easily better than anyone barring City or Liverpool who we have pretty much matched.

You don't need to be an expert to see that the lack of preseason is behind the poor start to this season. All the teams who played in the EL tournament were well off their usual standards.
Now that we've had another couple of weeks fitness you can already see the quality returning. They dominated Newcastle and could have scored 6 or 7.

I know the window was disappointing and the Spurs games will have made a lot of people lose perspective but there's absolutely no reason to be panicking about top 4 right now. Despite the board cheaping out this summer we've still managed to improve our options in each line of the pitch. Compare Saturday to the same fixture last season and tell me we're not in a much better place. And that was without Martial, Greenwood and Cavani.

https://www.premierleague.com/match/46680

This time last year we were a poor side, awful to watch and struggling to create any chances. These days we are free scoring, enjoyable to watch and before the preseason mess we were quite solid defensively too. It's a mistake let a tiny sample size of games under unusual circumstances distract you from that.

Fair post, and I agree. As I said in an earlier post, there's absolutely no reason to get rid now... Ole's got way too much credit in the bank for that, and as you say the current circumstances are totally unique.

 

[sammsky1]

I am not going to give you a low down on what his tactics are, this depends on the players available to managers.
What has VVD and City's results got to do with Poch? Or the question I asked about why you want Ole sacked? Which you seem to ignore.
So Pep's keeper story is a myth, but Jose signed 2 CB's who wouldn't be in top 10 of CB's either, but he isnt allowed to replace with a better one but City are allowed? How many full backs and CB's has he signed?
I never knew you have Klopp on speed dial to know he wanted these players? So you saying in 2014 Klopp wanted Brandt, Werner, Fekir, Lewis, Havertz to win the league?
When he took over, he signed Mane, Gini, VVD, Salah, Robertson, Ox, Allison, Keita, Fabinho - I do see these players in the league though.
Also, Klopp also didnt fancy players and they got rid of players such as Benteke, Ibe, Skrtel, Allen, Lucas, Sakho and the like to make room for other players.

He's made 950 odd posts in this thread always ignoring that question and without providing an acceptable or coherent answer so I wouldn't waste your time trying to get one. To be fair, he isn't the only one, but is a good representation for the many other OleOUTers that lurk in this cesspit of a thread.

There was a time when I made thoughtful posts in this thread, hoping that a debate might inform me about why people hate our manager or that I might change a few minds about OleOUT. But despite Ole having the amongst the very best results in the country since Bruno arrived, and beating every quantitative metric available, I'm yet to see any evidence that backs up their opinion. Not one shred of factual evidence exists.

The closest OleOUT get to evidence is to moan about Cardiff from 6 years ago, and recently to warp the importance of losing to Palace and Spurs, both results which have severe mitigating circumstances way beyond the control of the manger. That's it, that's all they have. The other stuff is just vague and pretentious bollocks like pattens of play, coaching and well timed substitutions. They put Klopp forward as the saviour, yet always leave out that he brought in 25 new players before winning the league or that it took him over 4 seasons to reach the top. And never explain WHY Pochettino is a better manager than Ole and never have any evidence that he can do better.

Their arguments are repetitive and well known by now and baseless in every regard. Many have stated they will never change their minds. So they are now fundamentalist and bigoted on this subject. So the only question now is to ask why such people revel in moaning, creating toxicity and refusing to enjoy supporting the football club they chose and invest many hours in every week. That is what this thread should now focus on.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Sure Ancelotti, Rodgers, Nagelmann, Klopp, Guardiola , Giggs, Conte, Gasperini, Tuchel, Simeone - could probably find a few more if I thought about it

You'd honestly rather Giggs than Pochettino?

 

[lysglimt]

I agree, Poch is a good coach and manager but we have also seen that to win the league, you also need to be adaptable. Is Poch adaptable? No?

Also, one thing that gets me is Poch did it without any money... yea he had no money for 1 season. The rest of the time, he has spent money on signings. Now lets also look at these.

No please do not look at those signings - because they were awful after signing Son and Alderweireld (he deserves credit for those two) - but after that he decided to waste all the Money on useless crap. My main criticism against Pochettino , his transfer-record is appalling.

 

[pocco]

But in that season he was also saddled with the likes of Pogba, Lingard, Pereira, etc. He's inherited a terrible squad compared to what he played in.

I don't think there's anyone who would disagree he looks second-tier at best regarding tactics. We saw that under a more tactically versed manager (Jose) it could get around 15 more points.

But he does know the mind of a true winner. The mentality of sacrifice.

For me personally it remains an extremely tough decision between those two elements: 1. he's lacking vs other more progressive and/or top-tier managers, so there's a built-in ceiling to his ability vs 2. he knows the mentality of a true winner who sacrifices everything (money, partying, status, personal relationships, petty grudges etc) for the win.

#1 is inherently potentially short term. As long as Dumbwad and Drudge are still here, success under a better tactical manager is potentially limited to however long the manager stays; it's inherently unstable. #2 is an intangible thing that exists only in extremely particular top-tier organizations and it's something that money can't really buy and that, in fact, trying to buy with money actually destroys.

We won't easily find another manager who understands #2. Klopp is probably the only other visible one in top-tier football right now.

(Obviously combining 1 and 2 like Klopp is the ideal.)

Bottom line, IMO we need to see what Ole can do with a squad that doesn't have the likes of Pogba in it. If someone told you that we would have to:

A. wait for three more years but
B. we'd still be kind of moaning that Ole's clearly not up to scruff tactics-wise BUT
C. we'd be truly competitive again with the Bayerns/Reals, and be very clearly enamored with the right personalities at the squad

Would you take it?

I'm not willing to use Pogba as an example of what Ole has had to deal with in a negative sense. He always speaks highly of him, he's still here and still starting games. Unless we sell him then there's no reason to believe he's anything but happy with him. And this is why I have a problem with your second point regarding him knowing the mind of a true winner. Does he? He's tolerated some real poor performances from our players and still talks positively and doesn't try to replace them. Shaw, Martial, Pogba being good examples. Roy Keane knows better the mind of a winner, he epitomised this for us. And yet he's in the media saying the opposite about our players, so which one is wrong?

But to answer your last question, if I honestly felt that we were only competitive because we had amassed lots of top level players, which is kind of where I feel we trying to go, then I possibly wouldn't take it. I'd probably be thinking 'let's improve our manager and have a top level manager to improve even more', or 'this is probably as far as he can take us, it's time for new ideas'.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Almost exactly how I feel.

Except, if Poch's experience at Spurs was anything to go by, it would be an initial struggle to settle, followed by steady progression, rather than any immediate bounce.

He's a damn good coach and manager, and if Ole hadn't done as well as he had then he would have been at the top of my list to see what he could do once he got us Top 4.

However, Ole has essentially done that job already and outside of the latter absolutely capitulating this year, I think we owe it to ourselves to see how it pans out with Ole at the end of this season, and if he's made a good fist of the league season this year, we actually properly back him for once!

However, with all the noises that are coming out, it will in all likelihood, be Poch who comes in next no matter what. I hope that he proves me wrong and is the manager who gets us back to properly challenging and winning the big trophies, but that experience at Spurs didn't exactly fill me with hope.

This is the problem.

If we miss out on CL, the consequences will be huge. We've already lost £100 million from the coronavirus crisis, and we've still no idea when fans will be allowed in stadiums. Can you imagine how big the loss will be if we miss out on CL too? And if City and Liverpool qualify again, they'll only pull away from us further.

So we owe it to ourselves to be proactive, and make the right decisions for the club. If there comes a time over the next two months where we're falling away from the CL spots, the right decision may be to release Ole.

That said, the entire league is crazy at the moment and we've no idea how it will pan out at present.

 

[lysglimt]

You'd honestly rather Giggs than Pochettino?

If you look at Poch's 25-30 signings for Tottenham - you will see that 3 were really good (2 even excellent) -5 were good but not great, and about 20 were - ranging from average to crap.

Do I want a manager whose transfer record is 1 in 9 ? Nah

 

[SteveW]

I agree he’s hit targets and I don’t judge him as I would other managers. But as supportive as I could be I can’t fully back this decision to continue his project when ‘I believe’ there is a manager who has all the skill sets required to continue this trajectory playing better football whilst achieving above expected targets. Call me foolish but with VVD injured and the current overlook of the league we can challenge for the title this season with the squad we have. But unfortunately our manager will prevent this.

Who is this manager?

 

[romufc]

It does depend on what he has available he also plays a mix of forms tins which I assume he will do accordingly to players too.

Well I don’t know what questions you was asking for what answers. So I answered how I perceived your questions. Why don’t I want Ole. Well in simple he’s not a high enough quality of manager to have us competing at the top end. What a coach his level. Frank Lampard.

You got Jose on speed dial seeing as you seem to know what he wants. Full backs Mendy, Kyle Walker, Danielo, Cancelo and Angelino. CB’s 4. He’s spent a lot of money but he’s also shipped out what he doesn’t want. He hasn’t got Phil Jones sitting on his arse earning 80k plus a week.

Klopp point answers my last point. If we wasn’t offering Juan Mata and Piererra extension deals maybe we would room on the books for extra additions. Maybe if Jose new he needed a new CB, maybe not go offering Rojo new bumper deals. You might get left on your arse like City and Kompany but there’s room there for additions. Like signing Ake and Diaz in one window.

Okay, so you based that opinion based on his previous jobs right? What was the highest the squad we had last season achieve in the league? I would say 3rd and he got 3rd.

So where is the evidence that Poch can compete at the top end?

Okay, he cannot compete with top coaches? He beat Pep, Jose and the like last season?

No, I don't need him on speed dial to make comments, I heard him talk on Sky sports actually where he said he wanted a CB.

Thank you, you have just proved my point, the manager needs backing from the club. It is the club who decides to give Jones, Rojo contracts, if they backed the manager, these players would be out the door.

Bringing players in is not the only way yo back the manager, you have to trust them to say, X Y Z player is not good enough, get rid.

 

[sammsky1]

If you look at Poch's 25-30 signings for Tottenham - you will see that 3 were really good (2 even excellent) -5 were good but not great, and about 20 were - ranging from average to crap.

Do I want a manager whose transfer record is 1 in 9 ? Nah

Do you want a manager who has to learn how to win cup trophies, let alone a league title, whilst on the job.
And all that whilst under the global microscope that is Manchester United?
Because that is exactly what Poch would have to do.

 

[romufc]

He's made 950 odd posts in this thread always ignoring that question and without providing an acceptable or coherent answer so I wouldn't waste your time trying to get one. To be fair, he isn't the only one, but is a good representation for the many other OleOUTers that lurk in this cesspit of a thread.

There was a time when I made thoughtful posts in this thread, hoping that a debate might inform me about why people hate our manager or that I might change a few minds about OleOUT. But despite Ole having the amongst the very best results in the country since Bruno arrived, and beating every quantitative metric available, I'm yet to see any evidence that backs up their opinion. Not one shred of factual evidence exists.

The closest OleOUT get to evidence is to moan about Cardiff from 6 years ago, and warp the importance of losing to Palace and Spurs, both results which have severe mitigating circumstances way beyond the control of the manger. That's it, that's all they have. The other stuff is just vague and pretentious bollocks like pattens of play, coaching and well timed substitutions. They put Klopp forward as the saviour, yet always leave out that he brought in 25 new players before winning the league or that it took him over 4 seasons to reach the top. And never explain WHY Pochettino is a better manager than Ole and never have any evidence that he can do better.

Their arguments are repetitive and well known by now and baseless in every regard. Many have stated they will never change their minds. So they are now fundamentalist and bigoted on this subject. So the only question now is to ask why such people revel in moaning, creating toxicity and refusing to enjoy supporting the football club they chose and invest many hours in every week. That is what this thread should now focus on.

It's becoming ridiculous. I am Ole in but I can see the argument on the other side in respects to his tactics etc.. getting the best out the players. I accept every argument that is thrown at Ole but I also do look at the other side too and not just blinded by being Ole in.

This is a very interesting point, I had another poster tell me when we score good goals is because we have good players on the pitch but when things go back its the managers fault.. even though its the same players... They cannot accept we work on this in the training ground.

Your final paragraph nails it, the fans have become so far Ole out that they cannot enjoy results. Just want a new toy, rather than focus on why things are going wrong.

 

[romufc]

No please do not look at those signings - because they were awful after signing Son and Alderweireld (he deserves credit for those two) - but after that he decided to waste all the Money on useless crap. My main criticism against Pochettino , his transfer-record is appalling.

Exactly, imagine at our club then where we make bad signings as it is. A club and manager who makes bad signings... its a recipe for disaster.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Do you want a manager who has to learn how to win cup trophies, let alone a league title, whilst on the job.
And all that whilst under the global microscope that is Manchester United?
Because that is exactly what Poch would have to do.

Wait, wait, wait....yes, i must reply again to you. Don't want but i must.
You don't want Poch because he has not won anything (which is his flaw, i admit) but you defend failed Cardiff manager who only won Norway league and it was 10 years ago.
I understand that you want Ole to stay and i understand that you don't rate Poch but do you really think that Poch is not level above Ole quality wise? Really?

 

[Mainoldo]

Who is this manager?

Poch. But alternatively Allegri can do this too. I just don’t like his football and although he would get us higher I’m fed up of watching crap football. It’s been close to 9 years now.

 

[VP89]

Exactly, imagine at our club then where we make bad signings as it is. A club and manager who makes bad signings... its a recipe for disaster.

Think during his time, Spurs brought in Wanyama, Ndombele, Sissioko and Sanchez too - all good signings (Wanyama was good for Poch at least, Ndombele replaced Dembele and works out well for Jose, who also likes Sissoko in his team).

Think Delli Ali also came in under Poch. Over 4-5 years of management he will 100% have flops among his record, but the above list + Son/Alderweirald is certainly no stick to beat him with.

 

[Mainoldo]

Okay, so you based that opinion based on his previous jobs right? What was the highest the squad we had last season achieve in the league? I would say 3rd and he got 3rd.

So where is the evidence that Poch can compete at the top end?

Okay, he cannot compete with top coaches? He beat Pep, Jose and the like last season?

No, I don't need him on speed dial to make comments, I heard him talk on Sky sports actually where he said he wanted a CB.

Thank you, you have just proved my point, the manager needs backing from the club. It is the club who decides to give Jones, Rojo contracts, if they backed the manager, these players would be out the door.

Bringing players in is not the only way yo back the manager, you have to trust them to say, X Y Z player is not good enough, get rid.

They do need backing but it’s not the be all and end all. Giving you all your targets but Persisic doesn’t mean you fall short by 20 plus points take into that we gave your Sanchez half way through. Giving you an £80m defender and £50m right back doesn’t mean you fall short. That squad finished second 15 months ago. Chelsea literally have the same cycle with their managers and we are told but the year before that they won the title. So no finishing 30 points behind the Champions is not acceptable after having so much to spend. How they spend the money is up to the managers. But they do have resources so don’t turn round and say they aren’t backed.

 

[sammsky1]

Wait, wait, wait....yes, i must reply again to you. Don't want but i must.
You don't want Poch because he has not won anything (which is his flaw, i admit) but you defend failed Cardiff manager who only won Norway league and it was 10 years ago.
I understand that you want Ole to stay and i understand that you don't rate Poch but do you really think that Poch is not level above Ole quality wise? Really?

You're also deliberately forgetting the SIX league titles OGS won as a player. Those winning experiences at Manchester United are inbuilt into appointing him as manager. You may wilfully ignore that experience but that's because you are so blinded by a hateful agenda.

Winning is winning is winning. It's a mentality and mindset. You either have it or you don't.
Ole Gunner Solskjaer has exhibited the winning mentality consistently through his life. He is a winner.

Mourinho's first observation of the Spurs squad he inherited from Poch is they are too nice and need to become better cnuts. He was absolutely right in that assessment.

 

[romufc]

They do need backing but it’s not the be all and end all. Giving you all your targets but Persisic doesn’t mean you fall short by 20 plus points take into that we gave your Sanchez half way through. Giving you an £80m defender and £50m right back doesn’t mean you fall short. That squad finished second 15 months ago. Chelsea literally have the same cycle with their managers and we are told but the year before that they won the title. So no finishing 30 points behind the Champions is not acceptable after having so much to spend. How they spend the money is up to the managers. But they do have resources so don’t turn round and say they aren’t backed.

So you keep saying all of this but then say Poch is the man for the job.. so its clearly one rule for Manutd and ole rule for Poch?

In 16/17 he finished 7 points behind Chelsea and then spent £112m on Moura, Sanchez, Fotyh, Llorente, Aurier and they finished 23 points behind the champions, that is acceptable though?

Where is the consistency in your argument ?

Then he went and got the CL final and top 4 in 18/19 - Spent £133m and got what 3 wins in 12? Yeah that is 100% acceptable?

Why hasnt poch won the title then? He has been backed by Levy so why is Poch so great? After being backed for a number of years?

 

[Mainoldo]

So you keep saying all of this but then say Poch is the man for the job.. so its clearly one rule for Manutd and ole rule for Poch?

In 16/17 he finished 7 points behind Chelsea and then spent £112m on Moura, Sanchez, Fotyh, Llorente, Aurier and they finished 23 points behind the champions, that is acceptable though?

Where is the consistency in your argument ?

Then he went and got the CL final and top 4 in 18/19 - Spent £133m and got what 3 wins in 12? Yeah that is 100% acceptable?

Why hasnt poch won the title then? He has been backed by Levy so why is Poch so great? After being backed for a number of years?

Well it’s not hard is it mate. At Spurs you have a wage budget and structure which means you probably can get Lucas Moura. At United you can be out the Champions League and get Pogba and Di Maria. Come on man. This stuff isn’t hard. Your just being ignorant for the sack of it.

 

[romufc]

Think during his time, Spurs brought in Wanyama, Ndombele, Sissioko and Sanchez too - all good signings (Wanyama was good for Poch at least, Ndombele replaced Dembele and works out well for Jose, who also likes Sissoko in his team).

Think Delli Ali also came in under Poch. Over 4-5 years of management he will 100% have flops among his record, but the above list + Son/Alderweirald is certainly no stick to beat him with.

Thats all well and good if you have a 50% success rate in the transfer window but the only problem is with United we make bad signings regardless of the manager.

The reason we are seing so much deadwood is because of those managers not being able to sign well, combined with the fact that this board cannot sell well either.

 

[VP89]

Thats all well and good if you have a 50% success rate in the transfer window but the only problem is with United we make bad signings regardless of the manager.

The reason we are seing so much deadwood is because of those managers not being able to sign well, combined with the fact that this board cannot sell well either.

I don't think the turnaround will be quite so heavy as Poch did with Spurs as they really needed a rebuild. One credit to Ole is that I broadly like his transfers and it means if he were to move on, the next manager will likely not rip the squad up.

That said, if United will make bad signings regardless of the manager, why are you criticizing Poch transfers?

 

[sammsky1]

First off: I swear you write this with quill and ink wearing a fedora and pay someone to transcribe it to a computer. More importantly however, you're missing the point a bit. This is a discussion forum. You will have your opinion challenged one way or another, that is the entire point of this place.

Calling me delued is a bit over the top, no? Listen, you're barking up the wrong tree. You come here and you spread negativity all around you, everything is terrible, the manager is bad, the player is bad, the owners are bad and you dislike everything. That is your right, but that kind of attitude is not constructive, nor does it accomplish anything. If that is part of the game to you, then you are not someone I want anywhere near my circle. It's like showing up to work trying to make the best of your day and you bump into some troglodyte by the watercooler at 7am when you just want peace and quiet, who then immediately goes on a long rant about how bad the bosses are and how terrible the company is and especially how YOU should feel the same. It is exhausting to deal with people like that.

I mention this becuase you are whining at the wrong people. We're fans. We can't do anything for you. The people you have a grievance with are not part of this sphere. You might as well stand in front of the wailing wall and complain about dinner. The wall can't do anything for you and nor can this forum.

The appropriate adress for your negativity is:

Manchester United,
c/o Joel Glazer
Sir Matt Busby Way,
Old Trafford,
Manchester,
M16 0RA
England

A final thought: If you come here and you whine and complain that people are happy we beat Newcastle. What gives you the right to be happy about any victory the team achieves in the future? To me you lose the right to take pride in the teams accomplishments if you can't enjoy the small ones. I'm not going to reply to you further, it's 4 minutes of my day I'd like back.

Such a beautiful post and a pleasure to read.
Every word of artful mockery is well placed and thoroughly deserved.

 

[romufc]

Well it’s not hard is it mate. At Spurs you have a wage budget and structure which means you probably can get Lucas Moura. At United you can be out the Champions League and get Pogba and Di Maria. Come on man. This stuff isn’t hard. Your just being ignorant for the sack of it.

Okay, I am being ignorant just because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Can you remind me what Liverpool's budget and wage structure was before Klopp?
It isnt hard to see that their wage structure has been adapted to pay the high wages to players.

Spurs wage Budget? Harry Kane is on £200k a week, what other clubs

Spurs just signed Bale without CL? And I am ignorant?

Its always one excuse after another.

First you tell me a manager being backed and finishes 20 points is not good enough, I proved you wrong, now you say because they are not paid enough... what a joke.

Liverpool won the league with similar wage constraints to Spurs... I will just leave that there for you.

 

[romufc]

I don't think the turnaround will be quite so heavy as Poch did with Spurs as they really needed a rebuild. One credit to Ole is that I broadly like his transfers and it means if he were to move on, the next manager will likely not rip the squad up.

That said, if United will make bad signings regardless of the manager, why are you criticizing Poch transfers?

Because we need someone who can make good signings.. Like you said Ole has seem to grasped that and managed that in his first season.

We have seen the lasting impacts of a bad signing. We are still struggling with LVG signings.

 

[VP89]

Because we need someone who can make good signings.. Like you said Ole has seem to grasped that and managed that in his first season.

We have seen the lasting impacts of a bad signing. We are still struggling with LVG signings.

So which one is it, you said in your last post that we will make bad signings regardless of who the manager is.

You also tried to suggest Poch generally makes bad transfers which is false. He's actually made a lot of very good transfers.
Ole misspent on Maguire for me, but I am actually pleased with VDB AWB and Bruno. He also wasted pretty much all transfers at Cardiff, which may be worth noting if you want to extend acumen to a sample size that's more meaningful.

 

[romufc]

So which one is it, you said in your last post that we will make bad signings regardless of who the manager is. You also tried to suggest Poch makes bad transfers which is false. He's made a lot of very good ones, and funnily enough whenever it's been mentioned people prefer to credit Levy for it (but blame Poch for any failures).

Levy can be given credit for how cheap he gets deals done. Look at how good Son, Toby have been for Poch and Spurs.

Yep, I am wrong because here is a list of his signings.

14/15 Yedlin, Dier, Vorm, Stambouli, Alli, Fazio, Davies - 1/6
15/16 Son, Toby, N'Jie, Wimmer, Trippier - 2/4
16/17 Sissoko, Janssen, Wanyama, N'Koudou - 1/4
17/18 Sanchez, Moura, Aurier, Llorente, Foyth - 1/5
19/20 Sessgnon, Clarke, Lo Celso, Ndomele - 0/4

So clearly you can see not even 50% of his signings have come good.

 

[Mainoldo]

Okay, I am being ignorant just because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Can you remind me what Liverpool's budget and wage structure was before Klopp?
It isnt hard to see that their wage structure has been adapted to pay the high wages to players.

Spurs wage Budget? Harry Kane is on £200k a week, what other clubs

Spurs just signed Bale without CL? And I am ignorant?

Its always one excuse after another.

First you tell me a manager being backed and finishes 20 points is not good enough, I proved you wrong, now you say because they are not paid enough... what a joke.

Liverpool won the league with similar wage constraints to Spurs... I will just leave that there for you.

Again your ignoring reality to get your point across and accusing me of doing what your doing.

So I said Spurs cannot attract the same players we do because they are Spurs and have a wage structure that permits them. You gave me Liverpool as an example, a club would you not say has the same status as United? Hence why even not winning a title for decades they could still attract players the likes of Fernando Torres to their club and take players like Robbie Keane and the Ox away from other premier league teams?

Yes they did take a gamble of giving players like Harry Kane big wages but that’s a lot cheaper than spending £60m on DiMaria to then give him £150k a week in wages. Harry Kane cost them nothing. I’m sure their finance guy was like yes we take this risk.

Spurs got Bale back a guy who was happy to go China 12 months before and unwanted by zero big clubs in Europe. So yes they can get Gareth Bale. Another reason his there besides no other big club wanting him, is because of previous affiliation.

So if Liverpool can win the league with similar wage constraints why can’t United win the league with bigger budgets and wage pools? Your original point was about being ‘backed’ now your telling me mangers with constraints can win titles. Therefore what’s Ole’s excuse now?

It’s all a merry go round of what suits your argument at the end of the day. Point proven.

 

[b82REZ]

Levy can be given credit for how cheap he gets deals done. Look at how good Son, Toby have been for Poch and Spurs.

Yep, I am wrong because here is a list of his signings.

14/15 Yedlin, Dier, Vorm, Stambouli, Alli, Fazio, Davies - 1/6
15/16 Son, Toby, N'Jie, Wimmer, Trippier - 2/4
16/17 Sissoko, Janssen, Wanyama, N'Koudou - 1/4
17/18 Sanchez, Moura, Aurier, Llorente, Foyth - 1/5
19/20 Sessgnon, Clarke, Lo Celso, Ndomele - 0/4

So clearly you can see not even 50% of his signings have come good.

Aren't all signings at Spurs made by a DoF?

 

[Mainoldo]

Levy can be given credit for how cheap he gets deals done. Look at how good Son, Toby have been for Poch and Spurs.

Yep, I am wrong because here is a list of his signings.

14/15 Yedlin, Dier, Vorm, Stambouli, Alli, Fazio, Davies - 1/6
15/16 Son, Toby, N'Jie, Wimmer, Trippier - 2/4
16/17 Sissoko, Janssen, Wanyama, N'Koudou - 1/4
17/18 Sanchez, Moura, Aurier, Llorente, Foyth - 1/5
19/20 Sessgnon, Clarke, Lo Celso, Ndomele - 0/4

So clearly you can see not even 50% of his signings have come good.

So Levy gets credit for cheap deals but Woodward gets his house stalked because he wants to negotiate on deals like Fernandez.

If United refused to get Grealish for £20 like Spurs did offering him £12m (might have been £7m) this place would have been rioting.

 

[VP89]

Levy can be given credit for how cheap he gets deals done. Look at how good Son, Toby have been for Poch and Spurs.

Yep, I am wrong because here is a list of his signings.

14/15 Yedlin, Dier, Vorm, Stambouli, Alli, Fazio, Davies - 1/6
15/16 Son, Toby, N'Jie, Wimmer, Trippier - 2/4
16/17 Sissoko, Janssen, Wanyama, N'Koudou - 1/4
17/18 Sanchez, Moura, Aurier, Llorente, Foyth - 1/5
19/20 Sessgnon, Clarke, Lo Celso, Ndomele - 0/4

So clearly you can see not even 50% of his signings have come good.

Where are you plucking these figures from? Are your ratings on which players were good transfers? If so you've just made up ratings.

14/15: 3/6 minimum (Vorm, Alli, Davies were great deals for the fee they were bought for).
15/16 he actually got 3/4 (Son, Toby, Tripper were all terrific additions to his squad for a few years),
16/17: is 2/4 Sissoko + Wanyama were successful
17/18: 2/4. Lucas + Sanchez were good buys.
19/20: 2/3 (or 3/4 if you count Lo Celso loan). Lo Celso is a loan and a good player + Ndombele is a good signing. Aurier isn't exactly a flop either, this is very bizzare ratings, the guy is still getting games under Jose.

Besides if Poch joins, he's not going to be making this many signings a year at United, as I said it was a complete reset with Tottenham.

If you want to judge Pochettino vs Ole in transfers I think it's better to 1) look at where the % of money is going towards hits. E.g. Foyth, N'Jie, Wimmer are smaller deals which shouldn't count as equally Sanchez, Ndombel etc.

You've also completely ignored how Ole has wasted the entire Cardiff transfer budget and still haven't clarified your point about "United making bad signings regardless of manager" before then oddly criticizing Poch signings.

 

[Andycoleno9]

You're also deliberately forgetting the SIX league titles OGS won as a player. Those winning experiences at Manchester United are inbuilt into appointing him as manager. You may wilfully ignore that experience but that's because you are so blinded by a hateful agenda.

Winning is winning is winning. It's a mentality and mindset. You either have it or you don't.
Ole Gunner Solskjaer has exhibited the winning mentality consistently through his life. He is a winner.

Mourinho's first observation of the Spurs squad he inherited from Poch is they are too nice and need to become better cnuts. He was absolutely right in that assessment.

You know that Poch wasn't some minor club player and that he also won stuff? Not as much as Ole of course but he won stuff. But nevertheless importance of that thing about what he did as a player is mostly rubbish. Maradona is the goat (maybe) but he sucks as a manager. Gary Neville and Matthaus were pure winners and but also suck as a managers. Of course there are examples in both sides (Pep or Zidane) but it is completely different job.

You look on many things opposite then me i guess. You like his mentality and on the other hand i think that he brought small club mentality to us. Playing as underdog against good teams for example. But lets stop here. It is obvious that you will not change your mind regarding Ole and i will not also (unless he wins something. Then i will be delighted to make a thread where i will say; i was wrong and i know shit about football).

But you didn't answer to me; you think that Poch is not better manager than Ole? Simple yes or no.