Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[b82REZ]

Its a concern that is completely unfounded considering the money the board have pumped into the club over the past 7 years. We are clearly ambitious for success but of course that doesn’t suit the anti Glazier/Woodward narrative.

No it isn't.

We have backed managers early in their tenures and then pushed the brakes the following year.

If we play hard ball over Sancho all summer, Ole is being set up to fail. Simple as. However in the past the manager has been vocal about lack of financial support, I dont see Ole ever doing that. It should be all our concern that the board are happy with a yes man in charge as they continue to siphon funds from the club with minimal investment.

 

[b82REZ]

There should be an intermediate choice in the poll. Something like he earned an extra year, lets evaluate him again next summer. Both choices are so defenitive that I dont agree with none, I dont want him sacked asap but I dont think we should back him all the way to the rebuild, that only god knows how long it will take, neither.

There were more options originally and then a mod decided it was easier to just split the forum into two camps. Iirc the reassess at the end of the season was the highest for a while.

 

[b82REZ]

Your concern that he will maintain the full confidence of the board.

If he is backed and we have a bad start and are 15 points of the top in December, then yeah his position should be looked at, but if he is not backed and we are off it, I can see the fans getting on Ole when it isnt his fault entirely.

How many times are we going to let the board let the manager take the fall for their shortcomings?

In this case though I don't think the board will martyr him. If he doesn't at least put pressure on the board throughout the summer it just continues to suggest he's just happy to be here and he'll accept whatever shit the board throw at him.

Ole did a fantastic job turning the season around but that was so closely tied to his the Bruno signing it highlights how much we need reinforcements.

 

[Withnail]

In this case though I don't think the board will martyr him. If he doesn't at least put pressure on the board throughout the summer it just continues to suggest he's just happy to be here and he'll accept whatever shit the board throw at him.

Ole did a fantastic job turning the season around but that was so closely tied to his the Bruno signing it highlights how much we need reinforcements.

He's never going to say anything publicly as it's not his style so if you're waiting for him to stamp his feet in a presser you'll be waiting a very long time.

That type of stuff is bad for morale. The players have to believe that the manager believes in them.

In private is probably a very different matter.

 

[b82REZ]

He's never going to say anything publicly as it's not his style so if you're waiting for him to stamp his feet in a presser you'll be waiting a very long time.

That type of stuff is bad for morale. The players have to believe that the manager believes in them.

In private is probably a very different matter.

I'm not waiting for that. But you can't claim that's not his style and then say he's probably different in private.

 

[RedPed]

No it isn't.

We have backed managers early in their tenures and then pushed the brakes the following year.

If we play hard ball over Sancho all summer, Ole is being set up to fail. Simple as. However in the past the manager has been vocal about lack of financial support, I dont see Ole ever doing that. It should be all our concern that the board are happy with a yes man in charge as they continue to siphon funds from the club with minimal investment.

Ole is not a yes man at all. He's just not the type of manager to air his dirty laundry in public, which must be a real pain for the journos. But it doesn't stop them making shit up.

I can't see why people have a problem with United refusing to get shafted every time they go for a player? There has to be a time where enough is enough. Why has no other club been linked with Sancho at £108m?

I would be perfectly ok if United just walked away from the Sancho deal but if they are prepared to pay that much, they should just get it done.

I have no doubt that United will fork out for players this season and they will spend big money but they're not obliged to just throw it away.

 

[glazed]

Beat city 3 times what do you want?

Not to finish a distant third behind two well run clubs. Not to be reliant on individual inspiration because we have't got a coherent playing system. To make appointments and purchases on a footballing basis, not a commercial and club politics basis.

 

[glazed]

Ole is not a yes man at all. He's just not the type of manager to air his dirty laundry in public

That's kind of the point. He doesn't criticise Ed in public. That's a big reason he's there. Instead of passing on the blame, he absorbs it. In politics, we call such people lightning conductors. When they are burned out, they get tossed away, leaving their masters unharmed.

 

[Mainoldo]

If we don't wake up and make moves in the window he will be on the chopping block again next year.

If your not imporving in football you are going backwards and get again it seems we are floundering in the transfer market.

Club needs to get the finger out and back their maneger.

Trying to get a player the caliber of Jadon Sancho is not going backwards in my eyes.

 

[Withnail]

I'm not waiting for that. But you can't claim that's not his style and then say he's probably different in private.

What?

I'm saying it's not his style to say things to undermine the board or his players in public.

 

[Mainoldo]

Ole is not a yes man at all. He's just not the type of manager to air his dirty laundry in public, which must be a real pain for the journos. But it doesn't stop them making shit up.

I can't see why people have a problem with United refusing to get shafted every time they go for a player? There has to be a time where enough is enough. Why has no other club been linked with Sancho at £108m?

I would be perfectly ok if United just walked away from the Sancho deal but if they are prepared to pay that much, they should just get it done.

I have no doubt that United will fork out for players this season and they will spend big money but they're not obliged to just throw it away.

No club is doing it because 1) They don’t have the money or 2) He’s not a priority.

Which folds well for us because we tick both boxes so I would not be happy if we don’t get this deal done.

 

[Withnail]

That's kind of the point. He doesn't criticise Ed in public. That's a big reason he's there. Instead of passing on the blame, he absorbs it. In politics, we call such people lightning conductors. When they are burned out, they get tossed away, leaving their masters unharmed.

Au contraire.

It's called being professional and doing things in the right way. If you want to last more than a couple of seasons in a job you don't bite the hands that feed you in public.

It creates controversy and a bad atmosphere around the club and can also affect your ability to get jobs in the future.

If your position becomes untenable because you're not being backed then you walk away.

You never saw Fergie give out about the board and I highly doubt you'll ever see the likes of Pep or Klopp do it.

 

[b82REZ]

Au contraire.

It's called being professional and doing things in the right way. If you want to last more than a couple of seasons in a job you don't bite the hands that feed you in public.

It creates controversy and a bad atmosphere around the club and can also affect your ability to get jobs in the future.

If your position becomes untenable because you're not being backed then you walk away.

You never saw Fergie give out about the board and I highly doubt you'll ever see the likes of Pep or Klopp do it.

Because they were/are backed to ridiculous degree.

Even Pep spits his dummy out from time to time about transfers. There's degrees of separation of doing a Jose and putting a bit of pressure on the board publically.

 

[glazed]

You never saw Fergie give out about the board and I highly doubt you'll ever see the likes of Pep or Klopp do it.

They don't need to because they were/are all powerful within the club heirarchy. Jose was told to get feked when he needed a new centre back. If Ed decided Sancho is bad business, Ole will suck it up without a peep. That gives Ed a greater ability to walk away.

 

[RedPed]

That's kind of the point. He doesn't criticise Ed in public. That's a big reason he's there. Instead of passing on the blame, he absorbs it. In politics, we call such people lightning conductors. When they are burned out, they get tossed away, leaving their masters unharmed.

List me all the managers who have openly criticised the owners publicly.

Go...

 

[Withnail]

They don't need to because they were/are all powerful within the club heirarchy. Jose was told to get feked when he needed a new centre back. If Ed decided Sancho is bad business, Ole will suck it up without a peep. That gives Ed a greater ability to walk away.

Mourinho had just bought two CBs and then claimed they weren't good enough and wanted another more expensive one. This was just before he was out on his ear so who knows what was going on behind the scenes.

Fergie never 'needed to' kick up a stink over transfers? You're having a laugh.

Fecking up the Ronaldinho deal and replacing Ronaldo with the sum total of feck all spring to mind.

The net spend from the year we sold Ronaldo to when Fergie retired was about £45m.

 

[glazed]

Mourinho had just bought two CBs and then claimed they weren't good enough and wanted another more expensive one. This was just before he was out on his ear so who knows what was going on behind the scenes.

Fergie never 'needed to' kick up a stink over transfers? You're having a laugh.

IIRC it was Fergie that was always moaning about lack of value in the transfer market - e.g Hazard. Granted he was probably shielding the Glazers since it was his fekups that landed us with them in the first place

 

[RedPed]

No club is doing it because 1) They don’t have the money or 2) He’s not a priority.

Which folds well for us because we tick both boxes so I would not be happy if we don’t get this deal done.

There are clubs who do have the money and he would be an improvement in any team. Is he worth £108m?? Debatable. I'm happy that United are just not bending over every time. If we sign him, great. If not, move on.

 

[Withnail]

IIRC it was Fergie that was always moaning about lack of value in the transfer market - e.g Hazard. Granted he was probably shielding the Glazers since it was his fekups that landed us with them in the first place

I don't think he'd see it that way

But that's exactly what I mean, it wasn't the Glazers being tight-arses it was the 'market'

 

[Robbie Boy]

List me all the managers who have openly criticised the owners publicly.

Go...

Exactly. The majority that have done over the years - at any club - have generally ended up sacked and look how counterproductive Jose's bullshit was.

 

[RedPed]

Exactly. The majority that have done over the years - at any club - have generally ended up sacked and look how counterproductive Jose's bullshit was.

Yeah true. Funny how @glazed never replied though. Maybe having to think about it.

 

[Mainoldo]

There are clubs who do have the money and he would be an improvement in any team. Is he worth £108m?? Debatable. I'm happy that United are just not bending over every time. If we sign him, great. If not, move on.

Its not a that easy. We aren’t champions of England or Europe, so therefore I don’t see why you think we should act so arrogant.

Don’t be shy though. Name the clubs?

I’m sure he would improve a lot of sides but like I said a lot of sides don’t need him. We do. I don’t get how United not spending money let’s you sleep better? If we can’t afford to that’s a different debate.

 

[laughtersassassin]

Trying to get a player the caliber of Jadon Sancho is not going backwards in my eyes.

Trying isnt getting him is. I'm talking about a hypothetical that if we fail this window and don't strenghen as much or more than our rivals.

 

[laughtersassassin]

For the people who don't think he is worth the money.

I ask you how much would you want for

1. Martial
2. Rashord
3. Greenwood

Because Sancho puts up better numbers than those and not just in the bundesliga. In the Champions league too.

I'd want more than 120 mil for Greenwood if we had to sell and Sancho had a very similar rise to Greenwood and has only further developed since then.

Statistically he is one of the best attackers in Europe and other than Messi the most all round in terms of being able to both create and score.

 

[Mainoldo]

Trying isnt getting him is. I'm talking about a hypothetical that if we fail this window and don't strenghen as much or more than our rivals.

So we are both talking hypotheticals then. But the reality is we are ‘trying’ to get Jadon Sancho. That’s a lot better than your hypothetical which would assume we are doing nothing.

 

[glazed]

I don't think he'd see it that way

But that's exactly what I mean, it wasn't the Glazers being tight-arses it was the 'market'

It was SAF as well tbh. I don't think anyone looks back and thinks not buying Hazard was a good footballing decision.

 

[Foxbatt]

I really don't think the board would deny Ole if he says no matter what we need Sancho if we are to progress.
That said he is probably wanting more players and rightly so. That's why one player maybe not crucial. My biggest concern is what if he goes to city or Liverpool? Just like Hazard went to Chelsea or Kun went to City?
That means trying to play catch up will make it more difficult.

 

[glazed]

Yeah true. Funny how @glazed never replied though. Maybe having to think about it.

Obviously very few have openly criticised, so it's a deliberately obtuse question. As we all know, it's more about leaks to the press, tone, signals, what you don't say - stuff like that. Jose used to protest by making cr*p team selections in weak positions, for example.

Look how Poch left Spurs as another example. It was clear Levi wasn't going to open the wallet, having spaffed it all on a new stadium. It was pretty clear from the reporting that Poch felt that he couldn't do anything but go backwards in that circumstance and that was well communicated through the press and how he chose to avoid questions rather than answer them directly. Not quite the same as an open press conference slagging the management but we all got the message. We all knew.

Ole doesn't do that. He sucks it up. It's different. He wasn't appointed on merit or on reputation. He was appointed to be loyal.

 

[dirkey]

For the people who don't think he is worth the money.

I ask you how much would you want for

1. Martial
2. Rashord
3. Greenwood

Because Sancho puts up better numbers than those and not just in the bundesliga. In the Champions league too.

I'd want more than 120 mil for Greenwood if we had to sell and Sancho had a very similar rise to Greenwood and has only further developed since then.

Statistically he is one of the best attackers in Europe and other than Messi the most all round in terms of being able to both create and score.

You'd want more than 120 mill for Greenwood? No offence mate, but you're having a laugh! I love Greenwood, he has fabulous potential. But > 120 million? That's .. hilarious.

 

[giggs-beckham]

For the people who don't think he is worth the money.

I ask you how much would you want for

1. Martial
2. Rashord
3. Greenwood

Because Sancho puts up better numbers than those and not just in the bundesliga. In the Champions league too.

I'd want more than 120 mil for Greenwood if we had to sell and Sancho had a very similar rise to Greenwood and has only further developed since then.

Statistically he is one of the best attackers in Europe and other than Messi the most all round in terms of being able to both create and score.

I think its a fair price to, what is it £108m

 

[laughtersassassin]

You'd want more than 120 mill for Greenwood? No offence mate, but you're having a laugh! I love Greenwood, he has fabulous potential. But > 120 million? That's .. hilarious.

One word Felix.....

But you missed my point. My point is that Jadon is worth a lot of money. Definitely a much better player than Felix for example. So Dortmund wanting 120 mil is no really crazy.so surely we went knowing we would have to pay up.

 

[b82REZ]

You'd want more than 120 mill for Greenwood? No offence mate, but you're having a laugh! I love Greenwood, he has fabulous potential. But > 120 million? That's .. hilarious.

It"s not that outlandish. Currently he's not worth that but another season like this one and he will most certainly be one of the most sought after youngsters in world football. Using Mbappe as the barometer we'd not entertain anything south of 100m.

 

[Withnail]

You'd want more than 120 mill for Greenwood? No offence mate, but you're having a laugh! I love Greenwood, he has fabulous potential. But > 120 million? That's .. hilarious.

Given how good he is at this stage of his development, the sky is the limit therefore he's effectively priceless.

United would be mad to sell him for 120m

 

[RedPed]

Obviously very few have openly criticised, so it's a deliberately obtuse question. As we all know, it's more about leaks to the press, tone, signals, what you don't say - stuff like that. Jose used to protest by making cr*p team selections in weak positions, for example.

Look how Poch left Spurs as another example. It was clear Levi wasn't going to open the wallet, having spaffed it all on a new stadium. It was pretty clear from the reporting that Poch felt that he couldn't do anything but go backwards in that circumstance and that was well communicated through the press and how he chose to avoid questions rather than answer them directly. Not quite the same as an open press conference slagging the management but we all got the message. We all knew.

Ole doesn't do that. He sucks it up. It's different. He wasn't appointed on merit or on reputation. He was appointed to be loyal.

Ah my bad, I wasn't aware you was actually involved in the interview and appointment process to have such an insight into the thought processes of the United board. Where did you get that information from?

So you're looking for Solskjaer to start aiming digs at the board, being terse in press conferences, messing with the team and just generally creating a bad environment at United to get the players he wants? Great!

 

[glazed]

Ah my bad, I wasn't aware you was actually involved in the interview and appointment process to have such an insight into the thought processes of the United board. Where did you get that information from?

Logical deduction since he had no serious qualifications for the job except club connections. Is that even disputed by anyone?

So you're looking for Solskjaer to start aiming digs at the board, being terse in press conferences, messing with the team and just generally creating a bad environment at United to get the players he wants? Great!

No I'm looking for a club structure and ownership where he wouldn't need to.

 

[RedPed]

Its not a that easy. We aren’t champions of England or Europe, so therefore I don’t see why you think we should act so arrogant.

Don’t be shy though. Name the clubs?

I’m sure he would improve a lot of sides but like I said a lot of sides don’t need him. We do. I don’t get how United not spending money let’s you sleep better? If we can’t afford to that’s a different debate.

I didn't say anything about United not spending money. I said later that United will buy players and spend big if necessary. I'm just saying that they don't have to pay what clubs demand just because they're United. You wouldn't do it with your own money. It doesn't make sense. I want United to buy the best players and it won't be cheap I know but I'm also fine with them walking away if feel they're getting shafted. That's all.

 

[RedPed]

Logical deduction since he had no serious qualifications for the job except club connections. Is that even disputed by anyone?

Yeah Poch is qualified to the hilt isn't he but I'd be safe in assuming that at least 539 Caftards would welcome him at United.

 

[glazed]

Yeah Poch is qualified to the hilt isn't he but I'd be safe in assuming that at least 539 Caftards would welcome him at United.

Yes he is. His ratio of resources to results over a period of seasons would, I'm guessing, be better than anyone in the PL barr Klopp.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Molde manager would have been given the Manchester United job based on his managerial CV?

 

[Mainoldo]

I didn't say anything about United not spending money. I said later that United will buy players and spend big if necessary. I'm just saying that they don't have to pay what clubs demand just because they're United. You wouldn't do it with your own money. It doesn't make sense. I want United to buy the best players and it won't be cheap I know but I'm also fine with them walking away if feel they're getting shafted. That's all.

Yes I get that but we have to talk within reason. Jadon is worth what they are asking. We just don’t have the funds to get him and say a Jack Grealish. That’s not Dortmund’s fault. Realistically.. okay we walk away. We still have to spend £80m to get Jack. It doesn’t make sense.

 

[tomaldinho1]

First of all, I don't remember being rude to you. That other guy has tested mine and other people's patience, so if he wants to play the law man, he'll get treated accordingly.

As for the rest, you insert your opinion on pretty much anything I've written like a fact and you say I haven't provided evidence? Where's your evidence we're improving besides a comparison to the league from >20 years ago. Anyone that works with data would understand that recent comparisons are more pertinent if you actually want to analyse performance.

As for the fact we've scored some great goals, that's exactly the point. We've scored great individual goals due to the great talent we have in our first team. But very few of them have any kind of pattern that you can ascribe to us as a team. I don't get why this is so difficult to understand. For comparison, Klopp's and Pep's teams were definitely following a play book, even with the wrong personnel.

Finally, the 'eye test'. We just don't look great and while that may sound biased, the same thing could have been observed when we finished 2nd with Mourinho. What's changed is we're recruiting better but that doesn't mean we're getting the best out of this team.

As I've said, OGS has until the end of next season as far as I'm concerned (for all that's worth) but that doesn't mean he's free of criticism until then.

These are two key points. You'll undoubtedly get flak from people who don't read your posts properly/think it's an atack on Ole when it applies to all managers but the points total comparisons is a great metric to assess a team's evolution. You shouldn't have to explain why it only works with back to back seasons and not decades past because it's common sense. We did well to finish third but were very lucky that the relative strength of the PL has remained weaker than ever because over the whole season we've been average at best.

The second point is what worries me most about our style of play. Fans are very quick to talk about Ole's deadwood and how he can't trust a huge raft of players but the fact is we have kept adding top players across the team for a long time & have a lot of depth. We should be far more effective than we are in my opinion and it's a case of having an embarassment of riches but performing below the level we can be. The reason it's my fear is that a lot of fans believe the way to improve us is just to keep buying better players but we should only be doing that when we have a system that is good enough to close the gap. You have to assume given how far off we were from Liverpool despite having a great team on paper that we have some fundamental issues we need to address before just throwing more money at players. A perfect example will be if we sign Sancho, remain third and then get 75 points next season without winning anything - is that progress or should we be pushing much much closer to where Liverpool/City are today with the same players?