Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Revan]

There were some mitigating circumstances regarding Busby, as you may know.

I know. Which is why I think that this record does not mean much.

I think so far, Ole has been as successful as Moyes/LvG, while having as good squad (and more money to spend on players). The football has been far better though, no question about that, but results-wise, it has been pretty mediocre (considering his entire spell).

 

[midnightmare]

As a comparison, Martial has been in the premier league match day squad 27 times and Rashford 26, Pogba 11. Pulisic has been in 24 , Abraham 29, Kante 22,

Their attacking players haven't been playing much more than ours bar Willian.

I do not accept that Chelsea had better players. Even last season I did not rate them when they had Hazard. I am not surprised that we beat them so many times. I'm also not surprised they were trounced by Bayern 3-0 at home. Supposing Bayern beat them like 7-0 on aggregate? would that not demonstrate they aren't particularly good?

Ummm. That squad you don’t rate finished 3 places above us and was ahead all season. They did add players by the bye and have a very exciting crop of their own youngsters - all of whom carried substantially greater experience into the team than ours. Oh and the general atmosphere was better too as a result of better performances last season. How you can dismiss that is beyond me.

Another very overlooked factor is the drop from first-choice to backup. That drop is far greater for us than them. Arguably we (specially now) have a superior first-choice eleven but our backups inspire fear in us as opposed to the opponents. Pretty sure Lingard, Mata and Pereira (who all started regularly for us in the first half of the season) are greeted with cheers by them. None would make the Chelsea bench!

As for starts, do check how many games those Chelsea players missed because of plain and simple injury / unavailability as opposed to ours. In our case, the low numbers were injury-related alone. Big difference there too.

I fully agree that Chelsea isn’t that good. It’s just that their squad is definitely better than our backups. Most teams above 15th would (at best) have Lingard, Pereira or Mata only as bench options. We started them all at times. That’s how bad it was.

 

[Revan]

I believe that upsets the status quo again of many of the players. Clearly many of the current United players enjoy playing for Ole. Bringing in another new manager means different players playing, some promoted and others demoted. Others sold and playing style changes.



We've spent consistently for all managers post Ferguson bar Moyes who dithered around in the transfer market all summer. LVG spent approx £250m and Jose just under £300m.

Only 2 clubs spent more money than United prior to Ole's arrival and that was City & Chelsea.



Exactly, Ole had the tactical intelligence to see where our weaknesses are and has addressed them, slowly but surely. The rest is simply crazy, I'm not even going to attempt to address it.



Football is not that binary and there are no absolute guarantees. Folks like you said Jose was "guaranteed" to be a success at United.

Just because Pochettino done well at Spurs doesn't mean that translates to United. He's a top coach and done well there but reality is, United are a different level to Spurs in terms of expectations.

By the same logic I could argue that Ole knows and understands what is expected at United so he is "guaranteed" to be a success.

I wish it were that simple but it really isn't.

You are talking with a religious person dude. According to him, Pochettino is The God, the Son and the Holy Spirit, all combined on one.

The best part is of course the guarantee about Pochettino winning us the league and the UCL. Same manager who couldn't win a fecking League Cup (or some equivalent small domestic trophy) in 10+ years of managing.

 

[Striker10]

I have stayed consistent with my choice unlike many others and nothing has changed. Let Ole finish the season and replace him with Pochettino.

The fans believe this upturn is due to Ole, but the main reason is the support of the glazers, Woodward and other key board members. They splurge large amount of money and broke records last summer with AWB and Maguire. They spent the most in January and got an essential signing in Bruno. Ole would be closer to relegation if he was not supported the way he was.

However, I would give credit to Ole for finding the right playersto fit his system, something other managers at United failed to do even though they have had better season than Ole so far. Regardless, if Ole doesn’t get an support, he is as good a manager as Eddie Howe. Is Eddie Howe a manager that can take a top club to the highest honor? No.

Pochettino has showed with limitations and lack of support, what he can accomplish. With the backing of our board, it will be guaranteed that Pochettino will have us winning the champions league and premier as he came close with the team he developed on a budget at Spurs who is now seriously struggling under Mourinho.

Pochettino has shown with limitations he can lose a dressing room and get fired. You say, its not that Oles doing well. It's that the board supported him. That's what you're saying despite wordinging it like you think he's done well. I'm not actually that shocked the things people say these days but it's not exactly fair or logical. What if the players we have don't like Pochettino ... Why should the players be happy? We wouldn't even have the bonus of him being able to get players from his other clubs because we're not after any of them. So I'm not really seeing the point. You want to destroy something that's actually working....

 

[midnightmare]

I am not sure this means much to be fair. Moyes has a higher win rate than Busby, after all.

That’s just picking nits and you know it. Busby has mitigation that’s unquestionable. The number was clearly cited because that poster said that “objectively” stats prove Ole to be “the worst manager post Fergie”. That’s patently I true. Even ignoring context, Ole is statistically now only behind Jose on that “results” stat.

Another matter altogether of course that this particular stat is beyond meaningless. By that stat Jose is ahead of Fergie as the best in our history . Tells you all you need to know about how well “Objective statistics” work in football.

 

[Revan]

That’s just picking nits and you know it. Busby has mitigation that’s unquestionable. The number was clearly cited because that poster said that “objectively” stats prove Ole to be “the worst manager post Fergie”. That’s patently I true. Even ignoring context, Ole is statistically now only behind Jose on that “results” stat.

Another matter altogether of course that this particular stat is beyond meaningless. By that stat Jose is ahead of Fergie as the best in our history . Tells you all you need to know about how well “Objective statistics” work in football.

Yep, statisic-wise, that is nonsense. He is not.

He might end with a lower number of points than any manager post-SAF though.

Agree with your second bolded point.

 

[anant]

Despite being a huge Poch fan (wanted him to take over after LVG and Mou, but have been on Ole's side since he became our interim manager), there isn't anything to suggest that Poch would have been a massive success here. Sure, Poch took Spurs from the ground up and built them into a great side, however, it was Spurs - a team that's not bound by certain philosophies and styles and all.
The issue with Moyes, LVG and Mou was that they never got what Utd is. For them, it was just a huge club that has unlimited supply of money and they can spend however they wish. And it was evident in their targets, the way they spent money and some of their statements. And it very well could have been Poch's way at Utd as well.
He's answered every doubt people raised about him - be it tactics, transfers, results, play style etc. so why shouldn't he remain our manager for the near future atleast?

 

[midnightmare]

Yep, statisic-wise, that is nonsense. He is not.

He might end with a lower number of points than any manager post-SAF though.

Agree with your second bolded point.

Yup. He could do that. And I’d still not change my opinion now. I remember when Jose was on that winning run in his second season. People kept defending him while pointing at the table. Everyone else said they trusted their eyes and predicted a big fall given that the run was just clearly unsustainable. It’s the reverse now in a lot of ways. The leaks then were of a dressing room that was increasingly weary and getting positively mutinous. Of a squad that was finished and of a manager who was increasingly throwing players under the bus. The PCs got increasingly toxic and Sevilla marked a low I’ll never forget. The results went increasingly downhill even in that season. It could not be any more different to where we are now. I wanted the manager sacked then. Again, it could not be more different to now.

 

[DJ Jeff]

no post Ferguson manager except Ole has survived a prolonged tough period. Everyone else was a dead man walking after it. Ole was too, but he recovered. LVG for example (and who is to say that with a Bruno/Ighalo level Jan window he wouldn't have turned it around) couldn't do it, Jose couldn't, Moyes obviously couldn't. Nobody but Ole has gone through the dead man walking slump and returned to winning form.

 

[lysglimt]

Despite being a huge Poch fan (wanted him to take over after LVG and Mou, but have been on Ole's side since he became our interim manager), there isn't anything to suggest that Poch would have been a massive success here. Sure, Poch took Spurs from the ground up and built them into a great side,

And drove them into the basement before he got fired - strange how that always seems to get lost when pro-Pochettino fans evalutate his time at Spurs.

Not to mention that he left them with only 2 good defenders both well into their 30s - and not a single central midfielder I would swap for our best 4-5, just 6-7 months after our central midfield was branded the worst in Premier League history.

 

[roonster09]

no post Ferguson manager except Ole has survived a prolonged tough period. Everyone else was a dead man walking after it. Ole was too, but he recovered. LVG for example (and who is to say that with a Bruno/Ighalo level Jan window he wouldn't have turned it around) couldn't do it, Jose couldn't, Moyes obviously couldn't. Nobody but Ole has gone through the dead man walking slump and returned to winning form.

Van Gaal second season we won 3 league games from October to December, somehow he survived it.

 

[rotherham_red]

Given our post covid form no one can argue that Ole deserves to be sacked. I was very hopefully of Poch though and still see him as the best option for players like Greenwood, Rashford etc to develop given what he's proven in his time at Tottenham. Giving players debuts is one thing but getting them to be regulars in a top 4 team and even compete for the league as Poch did is something much much more.

Poch competed with (and embarrassingly lost to) Leicester. He literally finished third in a two-horse race, ffs.

 

[DJ Jeff]

Van Gaal second season we won 3 league games from October to December, somehow he survived it.

You could say he survived in that he got to see out the season, but I don't think from December onwards anyone thought LVG would be our manager for the 16-17 season. It amazes me that the man himself seemed to think this was going to happen

 

[bondsname]

If we were to hire Poch we are about 1 year too late. You could make thousands of arguments how Ole is out of his depth, but you can't deny we are looking pretty good at the moment. The players seem happy.

If we were in the summer to appoint Poch I would imagine the players would be pissed off and there would be a huge drop in morale. Doesn't seem like a good idea to switch things up when we are finally starting to look good.

 

[Revan]

no post Ferguson manager except Ole has survived a prolonged tough period. Everyone else was a dead man walking after it. Ole was too, but he recovered. LVG for example (and who is to say that with a Bruno/Ighalo level Jan window he wouldn't have turned it around) couldn't do it, Jose couldn't, Moyes obviously couldn't. Nobody but Ole has gone through the dead man walking slump and returned to winning form.

This is a good point, and never considered. Ole looked finished before Bruno's signing, it was reaching the point of wishing for Moyes days, but somehow, the team is back on track. Could be a good sign.

 

[Robbie Boy]

He's well on course now with 5 games to go to get us our second best 'goal difference' finish since SAF retired. We are currently on +23 with 5 to go and the best since SAF retired are +25 in 14/15 and again in 16/17. Our best was +40 in 17/18 when we finished second. Not bad considering the first half of the season was sloppy, inconsistent and disjointed.

I think that's certainly a sign of positive progress. If we finish the season strong and follow that momentum into next season, we would likely be looking at the +40's which should really have us there or thereabouts around the top.

 

[Robbie Boy]

This is a good point, and never considered. Ole looked finished before Bruno's signing, it was reaching the point of wishing for Moyes days, but somehow, the team is back on track. Could be a good sign.

Never wish for Moyes days.

 

[Zen86]

You could say he survived in that he got to see out the season, but I don't think from December onwards anyone thought LVG would be our manager for the 16-17 season. It amazes me that the man himself seemed to think this was going to happen

There were no positives whatsoever with Van Gaal. Rubbish football, rubbish transfers, rubbish "philosophy". We were the very epitomy of a club that didn't know what it was doing.

 

[DJ Jeff]

There were no positives whatsoever with Van Gaal. Rubbish football, rubbish transfers, rubbish "philosophy". We were the very epitomy of a club that didn't know what it was doing.

yeah I agree. I do wonder how things might have unfolded had he gotten Mane in the jan 16 window as he wanted. But there were already internal leaks and the squad clearly hated him - he was probably on the way out regardless

 

[Zen86]

yeah I agree. I do wonder how things might have unfolded had he gotten Mane in the jan 16 window as he wanted. But there were already internal leaks and the squad clearly hated him - he was probably on the way out regardless

To be honest, he'd have probably turned Mane to shit like he did every other transfer.

 

[BestRed]

Last season (under Mourinho particularly) phrases like ‘the club is rotten to the core,’ ‘the players don’t give a fcuk’ etc were common place! The football was dull as dishwater and when we did scrape wins we were all waiting for the next defeat! Most of the team was really unlikeable and it felt like we were further away from City and Liverpool than we’ve ever been!

Ole had the gargantuan task of changing the culture of our club- resetting it in the mould of by gone glory days! He took the bold decision to kick out the mercenaries, in the knowledge that we’d have to take a few steps backwards before we could go forwards again! He slowly introduced players that had solid personalities and young, hungry players that had points to prove. Slowly, with many bumps along the way, we’re looking like a team; our players seem to care about the badge again and there are multiple reasons for optimism. Above all, it’s fun watching us again!

Ole deserves enormous credit and I can’t wait to see how our amazingly talented young players develop under him over the next few years!

Great post, couldn't agree more. Really exciting times ahead with this young team managed by a United legend.

 

[sport2793]

I have stayed consistent with my choice unlike many others and nothing has changed. Let Ole finish the season and replace him with Pochettino.

The fans believe this upturn is due to Ole, but the main reason is the support of the glazers, Woodward and other key board members. They splurge large amount of money and broke records last summer with AWB and Maguire. They spent the most in January and got an essential signing in Bruno. Ole would be closer to relegation if he was not supported the way he was.

However, I would give credit to Ole for finding the right playersto fit his system, something other managers at United failed to do even though they have had better season than Ole so far. Regardless, if Ole doesn’t get an support, he is as good a manager as Eddie Howe. Is Eddie Howe a manager that can take a top club to the highest honor? No.

Pochettino has showed with limitations and lack of support, what he can accomplish. With the backing of our board, it will be guaranteed that Pochettino will have us winning the champions league and premier as he came close with the team he developed on a budget at Spurs who is now seriously struggling under Mourinho.

You do realize that the same team struggling under Mourinho was putting in worse performances to get Poch sacked right? Again, this is why I don't take any Poch supporter seriously, the guy hasn't even led a team to a trophy.

 

[RyRy11]

Skeptical of how far we can go with Ole but this is the Most fun United team post Fergie imo.

 

[Ali Dia]

I originally voted let Ole finish the rebuild because it was obvious he was clearing out players faster than he maybe would have liked and the squad was short on numbers in key positions. We were never going to be able to address it all in a year. I’m also all for giving youth a chance at the expense of instant results

I think management has changed a lot in the last few years. It’s much more of a delegation game. Shrewd Player and staff Recruitment and data analysis are now more important than ever. As we’ve seen here you can waste endless amounts of money on bringing in overrated players or the wrong personalities for the group. That side of things is massive. The same applies to hiring and backing the wrong managers. If you keep changing the way you play you’re going nowhere fast and the squad will always feels disjointed and incomplete.

If you don’t have a pressing system or know how to beat one you are instantly at a disadvantage against hardworking teams in the modern game. Same with the parked busses. Even the smallest teams in the division have capable players that can counter you and take the points if you’re struggling to create or convert good chances. Possession means very little if you’re blunt up top or lacking creativity in behind.

I think it’s more about the manager finding the right system and then finding the perfect players for that system instead of assembling a team of names and trusting them to figure it out week after week.

ole has done a great job of keeping morale up. protecting players in the media. Keeping our problems in house. Fostering a great team spirit and sticking with players others would have written off. The players are responding to the coaches he’s installed. His work in the transfer market has been top notch. Not a penny wasted so far and a very happy and confident squad. Top marks.

at the end of the day though we are a team with a champions league budget every summer and this is how we should be performing. Top 4 should be nailed on every year when you spend what we do also any injuries to key players and we are still back to square 1. That needs sorting ASAP. He’s no innovator but he’s doing good work for sure. For once our foundations feel solid and we are looking like we can beat anyone on our day. I’m really looking forward to seeing more quality being brought into the squad because all of our recent signings have been successful. It’s a very exciting time to be a supporter

 

[georgipep]

Not so much over the last few years but I was following a lot of the youth team players in England around then when they were playing for the England youth teams. Not much at all was expected of Kane, I remember watching him in Englands U21s a lot and he always looked shite to put it bluntly. Dier was good but not seen to be the player he became, mostly seen as a technically component centre back. Rose was perhaps the biggest surprise. Ali was seen as a good prospect but to reach the status he did was very unexpected. Walker was seen as promising but Poch still had to execute and make him what he became. The point is he did it with all those under the radar players which is an incredible achievement that seems to be underappreciated.

Same Poch whose Spurs did not win an away game in the league in 2019? And the same Poch who managed Tottenham to the most losses in the league from January 2019 until his sacking? One hell of a team/squad developer...

If anything he shares one significant trait with Mourinho: he takes a squad, adds some missing pieces, then squeezes the life out of them before everything going bust. Problem is José at least won a bunch of stuff in the process.

You also speak about Dier and Alli as they are "all that". Dier is a player most around here didn't want us to buy and Alli has regressed massively in the last two seasons.

 

[Prodigal7]

Same Poch whose Spurs did not win an away game in the league in 2019? And the same Poch who managed Tottenham to the most losses in the league from January 2019 until his sacking? One hell of a team/squad developer...

If anything he shares one significant trait with Mourinho: he takes a squad, adds some missing pieces, then squeezes the life out of them before everything going bust. Problem is José at least won a bunch of stuff in the process.

You also speak about Dier and Alli as they are "all that". Dier is a player most around here didn't want us to buy and Alli has regressed massively in the last two seasons.

You’re selectively picking out the tail end of his Spurs time here, when he was being linked with us and Real. He did all that could be done at Spurs and everyone knew it. Perhaps you can criticise him for losing some motivation at the end but his overall time at Spurs he did wonders for the club and elevated all their players to a new level.

 

[Leftback99]

You’re selectively picking out the tail end of his Spurs time here, when he was being linked with us and Real. He did all that could be done at Spurs and everyone knew it. Perhaps you can criticise him for losing some motivation at the end but his overall time at Spurs he did wonders for the club and elevated all their players to a new level.

He's barely had a successful transfer since Son in 2015, what's your excuse for that? Why didn't he develop them?

 

[Jim Beam]

Was skeptical after that first part of the season. In fact, that is a plain lie as I thought the job was too big for him and he is tactically out of his depth. But, it was also clear he is doing a rebuild and that players he moved are the ones needed to be moved. So, my answer was let him finish the season and replace him.
Many people at the start of his reign were asking that we will get more answers about him once he starts losing games and how will he cope with that aspect. Well, he and the team turned it around spectacularly. I never changed the stance on how I will judge him though.

Don't give a feck about top 4 trophy, building towards something potentially great is far more important. We ended up 2nd with Mourinho. It was still clear we were only going in one direction.

He will be our manager next season and rightly so. Well done Boss.

 

[mancave bear]

Skeptical of how far we can go with Ole but this is the Most fun United team post Fergie imo.

We had a good track record against the best teams befor Bruno joined, and mostly without Pogba. Now with Pogba back and Bruno, we manage to deal with the ultra defencive teams. With 4 more additions we will be fighting for the title : )

 

[United58]

Skeptical of how far we can go with Ole but this is the Most fun United team post Fergie imo.

This is the big thing for me, after the three dinosaurs I'm finally enjoying watching us Bruno, Pogba, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood... serious talent in the squad.

 

[Stacks]

Ummm. That squad you don’t rate finished 3 places above us and was ahead all season. They did add players by the bye and have a very exciting crop of their own youngsters - all of whom carried substantially greater experience into the team than ours. Oh and the general atmosphere was better too as a result of better performances last season. How you can dismiss that is beyond me.

Another very overlooked factor is the drop from first-choice to backup. That drop is far greater for us than them. Arguably we (specially now) have a superior first-choice eleven but our backups inspire fear in us as opposed to the opponents. Pretty sure Lingard, Mata and Pereira (who all started regularly for us in the first half of the season) are greeted with cheers by them. None would make the Chelsea bench!

As for starts, do check how many games those Chelsea players missed because of plain and simple injury / unavailability as opposed to ours. In our case, the low numbers were injury-related alone. Big difference there too.

I fully agree that Chelsea isn’t that good. It’s just that their squad is definitely better than our backups. Most teams above 15th would (at best) have Lingard, Pereira or Mata only as bench options. We started them all at times. That’s how bad it was.

They finished above us in a season where we sacked our manager after he tried to throw out our season.
None of their young players have more experience than Rashford or Martial. McTominay had actually been playing first team since last season and played in CL games vs the likes of Barcelona and PSG.

You talk about our back ups by choosing the worst ones and forget Daniel James, Mata, Mctominay and Fred (all of whom are currently on the bench in recent games). Williams is also back up as well as Bailly and Dalot. Lingard also plays for England. The drop off for us is not greater. Barkley, Hudson Odoi, Emerson ain't proven anything. Lingard has only started 9 league games and Mata 8. Pereira the most with 18. People acting like we been playing Lingz, Juan and Andreas as our midfield 3 all season!

 

[Beans]

59% only are satisfied now? Good grief!

I'm hoping half of those against are not United supporters!

 

[Trophy Room]

Ole is here for a decade at least. Get used to it.

 

[mancave bear]

He did all that could be done at Spurs and everyone knew it.

Hi was underperforming big time. He won nothing. He is more like a Moys type of manager.

 

[Robbie Boy]

59% only are satisfied now? Good grief!

I'm hoping half of those against are not United supporters!

Combination of: Posters banned since voting, posters that voted that don't often login, posters that can't be arsed changing their vote and the ones that won't change their opinion no matter what.

From what I can see the general mood towards Ole seems like a positive one. I don't really see many posters coming in here pushing an agenda to get him out which is good to see. The footie forums on here are a much better experience for everyone when there's positive signs on the pitch. I feel right now, things are starting to look the most positive post Fergie and we finally look to be heading in the right direction.

Mourinho left this place a toxic mess along with the club and I admit, I was one who underestimated just how much cleaning up Ole had to do to get us back on track. Now though we look good at the back (improvement can still be made though), our midfield looks balanced and creative and we have a bloody delicious front three. Bruno has really galvanised this team and between him and Greenwood's blistering form, it's really brought a-lot of positivity.

 

[Revan]

Ole is here for a decade at least. Get used to it.

How do you know it?

 

[Robbie Boy]

Ole is here for a decade at least. Get used to it.

You do realise that modern day managers lasting a decade at top clubs probably won't happen again? There might be one or two anomalies of course but I would even be skeptical of that.

 

[Trophy Room]

You do realise that modern day managers lasting a decade at top clubs probably won't happen again? There might be one or two anomalies of course but I would even be skeptical of that.

I made that comment partially in jest but if there is to be an anomaly then why not at United? Define modern? Managers have always been ripe for the sack if things don't go well irrespective of eras. I think Ole understands the ethos of the club and if there was ever a candidate to last the distance its him imo. He's defied expectations so far hasn't he? In my opinion, he has done some genius work in an incredibly short space of time. We were a shambles of a team and organisation not so long ago.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I made that comment partially in jest but if there is to be an anomaly then why not at United? Define modern? Managers have always been ripe for the sack if things don't go well irrespective of eras. I think Ole understands the ethos of the club and if there was ever a candidate to last the distance its him imo. He's defied expectations so far hasn't he? In my opinion, he has done some genius work in an incredibly short space of time. We were a shambles of a team and organisation not so long ago.

In today's modern game and the demands that come with managing a top club, it's very doubtful managers will either stick around or last a decade at any top clubs. With the money in the modern game and the the willingness of sugar daddies to purchase clubs, it makes it very difficult to stay at the very top for a sustained period of time. Klopp and Pep are two of the best around but neither will last a decade at Liverpool or City. Both have spoken about how draining and challenging it is managing top PL clubs.

Teams tend to have cycles these days and when the cycle ends, the manager tends to go rather than wanting to/being allowed to oversee the rebuild. I can't envision we'll ever see again a manager oversee a sustained period of sheer dominance like SAF did. There are far too many mitigating factors at all, some which I've touched on.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

The positive thing about Ole is that he has taken us out of struggling spell.
It takes a lot to do that.
I am not fully convinced about the way we play and how we break teams down.
I think his man managment is pretty good although there are question mark to lift some players like Lingard and Pereira for a long time when they underperformed.

Although I think Ole deserves the time to work on that and maybe bring in one attacking coach to work with him.