It's crazy isnt it, it's almost like having a very good manager makes you a better team.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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It's crazy isnt it, it's almost like having a very good manager makes you a better team.
Yep. Lampards team at least control games and create chances.
I put that down to Lampard simply being more competent but alright, it is a very minor point.
I mean, nobody including me is arguing against that. State the obvious and it is a point hardly worth making. The point some of us are trying to make is that when you have been through previously top class managers who have done absolutely nothing and left the squad in a worse position there is something else fundamentally wrong apart from just the current manager.
We are either the unluckiest team in the world who have taken on top class managers exactly at the point they turned to amateurs, have appointed the wrong men (which would be down to strategy) or have bought the wrong players (which would be down to strategy). he current manager might be a mistake but that is far from the only issue.
Its all on Ole at the end of the day. i dont usually stick up for Woody, but lets imagine he hadnt have offered Ole the job when he did. Lets say without the added pressure of being the full time manager Ole would have kept the run going and finished top 4, then we got (insert manager). This new manager now has we in 6th place, we would have castigated Woody, asking why he hadnt kept Ole. The thing is Ole cant handle the pressure when results matter and is frightened? to lose so adapts the team to do this first and foremost. 4-3-3 now is usually 4231 or lately 523. See how we played in the cup against the Wanderers. The midfield were more adventurous. Yesterday they were sitting deeper, especially Fred. I cant see us winning anything under Ole. Last season he said if he couldnt make us better he would jack it in. Lets hope he is true to his word end of season.
Yes, it was sickening to watch his Chelsea run rings around us in the opening game of the season, even though we won 4-0. Not that I know much about football, but you could already tell that Chelsea had the beginnings of something good, while we were just sharper. Kind of like when Everton beat City 4-0 in Pep's first season here perhaps.
But you were using games from 2019 to prove your point.So one example that wasn't even in the past 3 decades which I asked for?
ONE fecking example, ONE?
You realise how fecking monumentally stupid that sounds? You have 1 example in 4 decades, and that one example actually turned out to be the best manager in the history of the English game. Prior to that the same manager had taken his United team from 21st when he took over to 2nd in just a season and a half, earning him the trust to do his rebuild. Remind me what our current manager has managed in a season and a half @pastyfoolto gain that level of trust from you?
So if Ole is to do it, he'll have to do something that hasn't been done for over 3 decades and he'll need to be one of the best managers in history.
Ole only winning 9 games in his last 30.
2019-30=1989
I thought it was only fair to look back 30 years from that point.
I thought you asked the question from a genuine point of view.
I was only trying to be helpful.
What is structure?
Seriously. This get bandied out like popcorn.
What is it? That we cant beat wolves at home without it?
I dont see a big revamp in liverpool structure, or leicester, or wolverhampton wanderers.
He's done well conning some of the more naieve fanbase who clearly have no problem with shockingly low standards.
That's a rhetorical question isn't it, man? We both know the answer to it - it's bullshit. It's buzzwords and spin, empty meaningless drivel to excuse a shit football manager. You don't need 'structure' to not get humiliated by Burnley at Old Trafford. You don't need structure to have a better on-field record than 9 wins in 30-odd league games.
The management and coaching team produces results on the field, not the higher-ups. Structure is important in its own way, but come kickoff time it's on Ole and his team to get a tune out of the players they have, including £200m worth of new signings (provided by the structure, at the manager's request). He's having an absolute feckign nightmare and he has got to go.
God knows mate. It's like this mythical concept thats main function is to shield Solskjaer from criticism.
I'm not saying structure has no bearing. But the importance it's been given in terms of people being able to kick a ball into a goal at one end of a field and prevent the ball going into the goal at the other end is... Well it's pretty fecking tenuous isn't it.
So apparently we should keep Ole because even if we sack him Woodward and the Glazers would still be here? You'd struggle to find a more deluded bunch than the Ole apologists.
What are we supposed to do? Suffer through years of mediocrity so that the Glazers&Co would leave?
The manager's main jobs are to:
- set up good tactics for the team
- keep the morale in the squad high
- coach and improve players
And Ole offers none of those things. Even if we appoint a random manager that only offers one of those things, it would still be an improvement over the shit we are getting currently.
And if you think that a manager can't do well under trash CEOs, you only need to look at Pochettino who had years of good results under a CEO worse than Woodward. Last year he made the CL final without being allowed to sign a single player!
What are we supposed to do? Suffer through years of mediocrity so that the Glazers&Co would leave?
The manager's main jobs are to:
- set up good tactics for the team
- keep the morale in the squad high
- coach and improve players
And Ole offers none of those things. Even if we appoint a random manager that only offers one of those things, it would still be an improvement over the shit we are getting currently.
And if you think that a manager can't do well under trash CEOs, you only need to look at Pochettino who had years of good results under a CEO worse than Woodward. Last year he made the CL final without being allowed to sign a single player!
Well yes, apparently having a competent manager will mean nothing until the Glazers and Ed are gone. These people are somehow the biggest problem of our on field performances as if they were coaching the players and picking the team. Also, no manager would do better than Ole. I mean, winning more than 30% of games with a squad like ours is just a ridiculous dream. Pep, Klopp and SAF would struggle even more. Ole is the man. Believe.
We can’t beat Wolves because we have a manager who shouldn’t be in the job.
The point is someone like Nagelsman works for an actual foot all club, that make football decisions. He can actually coach players and have a style of play, not just talk about culture.
Our club don’t value or understand what someone like him does, we don’t want a manager like that and if we did employ him he’s be expected to assume a role he ain’t familiar with. Rather than have Nagelsman and a DOF we’d rather have Ole and Phelan doing it between them and then a t surprised when it’s a disaster.
Did not watch the match yesterday but judging by the post match thread and the OGS threads, it looks like same old, same old.
OGS just isnt convincing me that he’s the man for this role. I’d love it if he was but we don’t live in a fairytale world. I have no ’agenda’ against him as a person and I imagine a lot of the people who are OGS out feel the same way too.
I still think the biggest red flag to me about OGS is his resume before he came here. About 8 years in Norwegian football and 9 months here with Cardiff. If OGS has something about him as a manager then how come not even the teams from medium sized European leagues like Holland or Portugal didnt approach him? Even after Cardiff? If he was a good manager then surely he’d have had some interest at even Championship level.
I have never heard of anyone who spent most of the managerial career at the level of Norwegian football then suddenly go into the top echelon of club football and do well.
If you removed the esteemed ex player moniker away from OGS, this would be like Utd having someone like Phil Parkinson, Simon Grayson or Steve Evans as their manager.
OGS just isnt convincing me that he’s the man for this role. I’d love it if he was but we don’t live in a fairytale world. I have no ’agenda’ against him as a person and I imagine a lot of the people who are OGS out feel the same way too.
I still think the biggest red flag to me about OGS is his resume before he came here. About 8 years in Norwegian football and 9 months here with Cardiff. If OGS has something about him as a manager then how come not even the teams from medium sized European leagues like Holland or Portugal didnt approach him? Even after Cardiff? If he was a good manager then surely he’d have had some interest at even Championship level.
I have never heard of anyone who spent most of the managerial career at the level of Norwegian football then suddenly go into the top echelon of club football and do well.
If you removed the esteemed ex player moniker away from OGS, this would be like Utd having someone like Phil Parkinson, Simon Grayson or Steve Evans as their manager.
Football has changed. It's pointless to compare the late 80s with 2020. Hope you are not in a time warp. It's not about the internet. The money in the game and the dynamics of club football mean that underperformers do not last. Everyone is competitive. You choose to stick to lackeys you will sink very fast.
I guess you guys may have misunderstood my stance. I'm a definite Ole outter and you could find plenty of evidence from previous pages. I'm just suggesting there is a huger problem behind and I hope fans could realize the current situation of the team.
Taking over as a United manager is a much harder job than you imagine, and there are reasons why Fergie's top 5 choices rejected us. Many fans still take Fergie's success for granted, tend to overestimate the squad and have unreasonably high expectations. Moyes was doing just fine considering the context but people flew a plane teasing at him. Mourinho got 3 titles and finished 2nd in the league with an average squad but still being asked out for parking the bus.
While fans have high hope in the team, the board lacks ambition and only aims to earn revenue. Many say that we have spent a lot in recent years, but few realize that the investment from the board drops drastically whenever we finish in top 4. It is obvious that the board is satisfied as long as we have Champions League football. This is undeniably frustrating for a manager who has higher ambition and wants to boost the team further to sustainable success.
13/14 (1) - 75.33m
14/15 (7) - 146.09m
15/16 (4) - 53.93m
16/17 (5) - 137.75m
17/18 (6) - 152.9m
18/19 (2) - 52.15m
19/20 (6) - 142.02m
I think the earliest we can hope he's sacked is when it's mathematically impossible to qualify for the CL. That's just the way our brain dead board operate by passively waiting for the inevitable to happen rather than try to salvage our season by being proactive and making sensible decisions. We fast-tracked Mourinho's sacking because of the toxicity in the dressing room and his deteriorated relationship with Woodward, Ole won't rock the boat in that regard so he's safe for the foreseeable.
What posters like @Regulus Arcturus Black are missing is that they always oversimplify the problem to a DoF. First question, why would the Glazers appoint a DoF who acts against their excellent puppet Woody? Second question, would hiring a DoF necessarily help in the context of the current club structure?
I have already gone through these quesitons once (#12187), and I don't want to repeat myself.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/would-you-sack-or-keep-ole-poll-added.450911/page-305
Sack van Gaal. Not much has changed.
Sack Mourinho. Not much has changed.
Sack Ole. Expecting change.
We have 5-6 players capable of playing Champions league level football, the rest are midtable quality.
The same issues are present with Ole as they were with previous managers we had before him. Lack of coaching, no off the ball movement, etc.
So three different managers (two of which had a strong pedigree in the game) we hired had the exact same issues?
Pep after spending a billion pounds had Laporte out for a few weeks and couldn’t really cope.
I think Ole is a talented guy with a good idea about football and how he thinks it should be played though I doubt he can/will take us to the level of competing/winning titles.
But you’re wrong if you think sacking him would change much with this team.
You’d just post the same siht in threads with a different name.
“Poch’s lack of coaching”
Sack Mourinho. Not much has changed.
Sack Ole. Expecting change.
We have 5-6 players capable of playing Champions league level football, the rest are midtable quality.
The same issues are present with Ole as they were with previous managers we had before him. Lack of coaching, no off the ball movement, etc.
So three different managers (two of which had a strong pedigree in the game) we hired had the exact same issues?
Pep after spending a billion pounds had Laporte out for a few weeks and couldn’t really cope.
I think Ole is a talented guy with a good idea about football and how he thinks it should be played though I doubt he can/will take us to the level of competing/winning titles.
But you’re wrong if you think sacking him would change much with this team.
You’d just post the same siht in threads with a different name.
“Poch’s lack of coaching”
We need new owners and CEO but Ole is backed more than any our manager so far and not to mention other managers in PL.
They sold/loaned Smalling, Alexis and Lukaku on his request. We can say all what we want about them but neither of them is not deadwood and could have been very useful this season. Then he got 4 players who he wanted by name. Lvg for example only had final say does he want x player or not, he didn't pick them by name. Jose had situation where he was backed but also Ed overturned some of his decisions about some players( Martial, Pogba, new defender, new right back, Willian, Perisic).
This guy talks only about future and board is buying that despite our results and our performances on the pitch are awful.
They sold/loaned Smalling, Alexis and Lukaku on his request. We can say all what we want about them but neither of them is not deadwood and could have been very useful this season. Then he got 4 players who he wanted by name. Lvg for example only had final say does he want x player or not, he didn't pick them by name. Jose had situation where he was backed but also Ed overturned some of his decisions about some players( Martial, Pogba, new defender, new right back, Willian, Perisic).
This guy talks only about future and board is buying that despite our results and our performances on the pitch are awful.
Every one of your points made here has been addressed, numerous times now, in this and other threads.
I really find it incredible how comfortable and confident some posters are with their very weak, easily debunkable arguments and assertions. Just the first point you made ‘sacked moyes, nothing changed. Sacked LvG nothing changed, sack solskjaer, hope something changes’. It’s really hard to not be rude about it because it’s just so staggeringly stupid.
Sacking Moyes resulted with CL football and FA cup. Sacking Lvg resulted with CL football and 2 trophies. In both times we started to play better football. So it was big a change in both cases and it is logical decision to change something which is not working.
And why do you think that Ole is talented? Based on what?
We’ve already hired DOF’s. We just call them managers. Bar one who actually had a sense of style... they’ve all been crap.
Didn't Sir Alex get a lot of goodwill because it was clear to see what he was doing though?
Do you see what Ole's doing on the actual pitch? Or is smiling and having 'United DNA' actually enough for you? Did Sir Alex even have 'United DNA' when he joined? I mean he never played for United, did he?
It's insulting to Sir Alex to claim that he only became as successful as he did because he was given time, do you not see that?
You’re right, those were changes, but we weren’t close to being contenders for PL or the CL, most of our signings turned out to be poor, the way we played was boring etc
More or less the same problems we see to this day.
I’m just saying our problems are rooted deeper than just the manager.
I wouldn’t really mind if Ole got the sack. Like I said, I doubt he can bring us back to where we aspire to be.
We was a contender for the PL though under Mourinho. Just that City was so bloody good.
What do you count as a contender? Within 5-10 points with 10 games to go or something like that?
For me City was a contender this season even though they are far away at the moment.
So do you think that anyone's just proposing 'change the manager and we'll be good'? Even if we just bring in someone off the street?
It's obviously about getting the right man in. We have changed managers and haven't found the right one yet. Do you propose we just stop making changes because making changes didn't get us where we want to be? I'd say we give the chosen guy a chance, when it's obvious that we're not progressing we get the next guy. I'm not saying we should be Watford and change managers every three months, but there are a bunch of young managers out there who play good football with their teams without having "club x DNA".
Do you think Liverpool are unhappy that they went through a bunch of managers, sacked Dalglish, Hodgson and the likes before getting Klopp? Given the outcome, giving Dalglish more time because he has "Liverpool DNA" would've been completely ridiculous.
The more he talks after games, the clearer it becomes that he is not the person to lead us. I was Ole in, then was in the give him the rest of the season but upgrade him. Now I wouldn't mind if we fired him if someone decent was bought up.
It is becoming clear that there's no clear plan apart from empty promises.
- After the break we'll start scoring goals.
- We'll be the hardest working team in Europe.
- Jurgen Klopp took 4 years. Klopp actually finished on 76 points in his first season. He has never finished below 75 points in his time at Liverpool. Solskjaer is on 35 points after 25 games after now spending £200 million.
He signs an attacking midfielder for £50 million and puts him straight in at the deep end playing him a full 90 minutes as a CDM in a brand new league and leaving the poor guy open to stick from the press. He could have eased him in.
His substitutions and their timings are something out of Championship manager.
His handling of players and is abysmal. From the Rashford injury, Pogba playing injured, putting unnecessary pressure on 15m Championship to be our starting winger.
The fact that he has now spent £200 is going to really put pressure. With that kind of money we should be higher in the league.
We need 30 points from 13 games to match our points from last years. It's taken us 25 games to get 35 points. At this point, I don't see us matching our tally from last year. Therefore, despite some positives and getting some players to build on, Ole has been a massive failure that has made us regress from an already poor position.
I really hope we are talking with other managers such as Poch, Rose and Nagelsman who will be able to get more out of these players.
It is becoming clear that there's no clear plan apart from empty promises.
- After the break we'll start scoring goals.
- We'll be the hardest working team in Europe.
- Jurgen Klopp took 4 years. Klopp actually finished on 76 points in his first season. He has never finished below 75 points in his time at Liverpool. Solskjaer is on 35 points after 25 games after now spending £200 million.
He signs an attacking midfielder for £50 million and puts him straight in at the deep end playing him a full 90 minutes as a CDM in a brand new league and leaving the poor guy open to stick from the press. He could have eased him in.
His substitutions and their timings are something out of Championship manager.
His handling of players and is abysmal. From the Rashford injury, Pogba playing injured, putting unnecessary pressure on 15m Championship to be our starting winger.
The fact that he has now spent £200 is going to really put pressure. With that kind of money we should be higher in the league.
We need 30 points from 13 games to match our points from last years. It's taken us 25 games to get 35 points. At this point, I don't see us matching our tally from last year. Therefore, despite some positives and getting some players to build on, Ole has been a massive failure that has made us regress from an already poor position.
I really hope we are talking with other managers such as Poch, Rose and Nagelsman who will be able to get more out of these players.
Maybe i missunderstood Ole but what he means by what teams can break Wolves, they kinda conceded in last 9 in row, maybe 2 cleensheat in last 15.
People thinking that sacking the previous managers is evidence our issues are more on the club side are dumb or brainwashed by the "man united way".
Our previous appointments were:
- Moyes - a manager that proved absolutely nothing at every level he managed
- LVG - a manager that should be given 3-4 years at a club, you bring him in for the foundation not for the results
- Jose - a guy who won a lot of years ago, who never was recognized as playing a football that should be even close to what Man United should play. Also a very toxit cnut.
- Ole - Average ex player somehow made to be a legend because he scored a few. Below average as a manager.
Stop using the "we sacked X managers" argument, it's boring and dumb.
Thing is, I suppose, the Ed got into a few issues when recruiting managers:
1. All the important ones asked for half the team to be changed
2. All the important ones knew we're in dogshit and refused
3. Ed found the "YES man" ones and appointed them (Moyes, Jose to an extent, Ole) .
Our issue is the current manager but our bigger issue is that top managers will say a blunt no.
A more qualified manager would get a top 4-5 finish with this squad, maybe even a cup. The OLE IN guys need to realize that, if we continue playing like this, we're finishing 10th if we're lucky.
Our previous appointments were:
- Moyes - a manager that proved absolutely nothing at every level he managed
- LVG - a manager that should be given 3-4 years at a club, you bring him in for the foundation not for the results
- Jose - a guy who won a lot of years ago, who never was recognized as playing a football that should be even close to what Man United should play. Also a very toxit cnut.
- Ole - Average ex player somehow made to be a legend because he scored a few. Below average as a manager.
Stop using the "we sacked X managers" argument, it's boring and dumb.
Thing is, I suppose, the Ed got into a few issues when recruiting managers:
1. All the important ones asked for half the team to be changed
2. All the important ones knew we're in dogshit and refused
3. Ed found the "YES man" ones and appointed them (Moyes, Jose to an extent, Ole) .
Our issue is the current manager but our bigger issue is that top managers will say a blunt no.
A more qualified manager would get a top 4-5 finish with this squad, maybe even a cup. The OLE IN guys need to realize that, if we continue playing like this, we're finishing 10th if we're lucky.
Well that's sort of my whole point...?
If we're going down the same path as them, and we obviously are with Ole's appointment, then it's better to recycle these crap managers faster than they did. Maybe we won't have to wait so long.
Yeah, and he literally asked "which other manager" (singular), then gets annoyed that you only rustled up one example.
There may be no other examples, and it might not be very reassuring, but you just literally accurately answered his question, and he’s making you wrong for doing so.
The proof is in the pudding, Ole.
You are an absolute shocker of a manager. How on earth anyone can defend this horseshit any longer is beyond my comprehension I'm afraid.
Liverpool
Sacked Benitez nothing changed
Sacked Woy nothing changed
Sacked Dalghlish nothing changed
2nd with Rodgers, then nothing changed
Klopp now Liverpoll are the best team in the world.
Should have sacked him obvs....
@Eriku, you do surely realise I said last 3 decades so that the poster wouldn’t try to invoke Fergie? Literally the only manager that anyone can recall has ever managed it, 30 years ago, a man that had proven his worth at both Aberdeen AND at United before doing so.
Quite clearly Fergie is the exception, not the rule.
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