Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

Sack or Keep OLE?

  • Sack Ole & appoint new coach ASAP

  • Keep Ole & back him to finish rebuild


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What I really like about britsh fans is, that you do not forget what a player did for a club. This is a nice trait. That said, we all will never forget the player Solskjaer and everything he has done during those great years. But as mentioned here a lot: If we put the sympathy for him as a player beside, there are not a lot positives to mention about Ole as a manager. I know, the place looks quiet and the spirit seems to be good in the squad. Maybe also because a lot of our players do not care as much as they should. I would be ashamed with this season.

Yesterday was as bad as it gets. And what is Ole doing? Just sitting there, watching the game. If he was that pi**ed with the first 45 minutes, why he didn't change anything? Well because he has no clue. It is really hard to watch us at the moment. I was really looking forward for the festive period, starting with the game yesterday. But oh boy, this was as bad as it gets.

I can't see us turning this around with those coaches. Yes, the squad depth isn't great but still we should be in reach of the 4th place. We are at the same point as last year but I am sure that we won't have a run like last year. There are absolutely no signs for that. I hope that some players still want to join us to improve us.
 
I don’t think some people appreciate how poor some of our players are and how young the rest are.

Most of United’s starting XIs this season have been on average the youngest in the PL and it shows

The senior players are amongst the worst in their positions in the league. De Gea is the worst GK in the league, Lingard and Mata are the worst #10s in the league. We don’t actually have a senior CF at the club

It’s no wonder we struggle at times. Mark my words it will be 2022/23 before we have another “good” season and that’s only IF we make good decisions between now and then

Mother of God... United fan who is trying to defend Ole, yea nah, dont buy it.
 
I don’t think some people appreciate how poor some of our players are and how young the rest are.

Most of United’s starting XIs this season have been on average the youngest in the PL and it shows

The senior players are amongst the worst in their positions in the league. De Gea is the worst GK in the league, Lingard and Mata are the worst #10s in the league. We don’t actually have a senior CF at the club

It’s no wonder we struggle at times. Mark my words it will be 2022/23 before we have another “good” season and that’s only IF we make good decisions between now and then
De Gea is the worst GK in the league apparently. I swear all Ole in people have some brain issues.
 
I want him to succeed however the performances against Everton and Watford are abysmal.

Where are pressing the opponents in their own half and quick passing that we see during pre seasons with the same set of players. There are no improvement in the style of play. It is always passing to the wings and cutting inside.

Will Ole realised that he is not good enough and resign from the post?
 
Peoples excuses for Ole are starting to sound like robots on twitter posting stuff in support of the Tories. Majority of the arguments make very little sense.
 
This thread has reached some all new low ebbs. The 'Ole in' crowd are back to blaming missed penalties, bad referee decisions, poor players, missed chances, etc etc etc. Now De Gea is the worst keeper in the league. I mean, all of this to defend a manager who clearly has absolutely no business managing this club. Wow, just wow.

Against everything I believe in, I changed my vote after the Everton game to keep. I somehow let myself believe that maybe, just maybe, Ole was starting to turn things around. But nah, I got sucked in by some good results and blind optimism. His tenure has been a real low for us and standards have once again been lowered.
 
I highly respect you as poster, so I'd genuinely love to hear any positives that you see to warrant him such leasure. I mean it's practically unheard of, to let someone continue with what we're seeing. I mean I want Ole to succeed but by feck he's making me believe you can get blood out of a stone at the minute.

I appreciate your vote of confidence.

I’ve said before that, despite the current results, there are some things I like about what I’m seeing at the moment, and I know/believe that with the right foundations - results can change quickly.

The kind of success I want for us is the one that is built to last, and for that, the foundations need to be deep and structural. The club needs an identity throughout. I think that is the stage we are at currently, and it remains to be seen whether we can go on to the next phase, which I refer to as ‘the butterfly’.

The main thing that has given me some hope is this - for the first time since Fergie left, I am satisfied that pretty much all of our players are playing to their best. That is unusual for us. For years our players have been called shite, even though the day before they got here, their stock was higher. With the exception of the keeper, who looks finished tbh - the players are playing to roughly the level, as individuals, that I think they are capable of. The next stage is to get better players and a clear plan, but having a good culture/attitude and buy-in from the squad is a great foundation to have.

The hope is, over the next couple of windows, we can simply assemble a squad that is capable of more. I also think the margins have been very fine with a lot of the points we have dropped this season, and the hope is with more work and strengthening, those will go in our favour next season.

I think if you want to change manager, it should not be done just because that’s what people do in football. I think you should be able to explain SPECIFICALLY what you hope a change will achieve, rather than it just being another roll of the dice. I look at us outside the top 4, and look at the points we have dropped this season. We should have beaten Liverpool, Arsenal and Wolves for starters. I don’t think a new manager will have changed anything in those games, and we played well, especially injuries considered, and should have won. I think we dropped points against West Ham and Newcastle largely due to the squad being decimated. I can’t trace all of our issues this season down to the manager. I’m also wary of starting again all the time, not until I’m sure that this version is doomed for sure.
 
How long has the problem of breaking down a well organised team been ongoing? It’s at the point where expecting it to change is a bit delusional. The rest of the season will play out exactly as it has been so far. A couple of good wins, followed by lots of toothless performances. I don’t see why after all this time it will suddenly change and a change is needed.
 
The good news is that these players are capable of dominating the European champions, beating a great City side away from home and beating other top four contenders ‘comfortably’ The bad news is that against the mediocre teams we a) don’t look motivated and b) are clueless on how to create decent chances!

The massive positive (and reason I’m still optimistic about Ole) is that improving our attacking against the fodder is much easier to fix than taking points off the top six! I believe we’re a couple of signings away from a big turnaround and therefore happy to give Ole two more transfer windows
Against the big teams Ole got his tactics more or less spot on but do you think these teams won't learn from it? That's the difference between average managers and top managers. The top managers will learn from their mistakes and change tactics accordingly. Ole seemingly only has one tactic so it wouldn't surprise me when we play each of the top teams in the return fixtures we won't have nearly as much joy.
 
Two words: brainless sentimentality. There is no other possible reason.

Were any other available manager presiding over us this season that poll would be 80+% sack. Literally any other available manager on the planet. Maybe with the exception of Cantona.

Exactly which was always the danger putting a legend ex player in charge. They get way way way more leeway & time then they actually deserve if you look at it logically
 
Surly fingers need to be pointed at Kieran Mckenna and Carrick, too. These two have been under both Jose and Ole now and our football, for the most part, hasn't changed when it comes to breaking down teams. As many people have said, this isn't a new thing under Ole - this has been going to for some time. This isn't meant to absolve Ole of all blame because the man is clearly out of his depth, but if he isn't the one doing a lot of the work on the training field, then questions need to be asked of those two.

Because we haven't progressed at all in the last few seasons.
 
All have been clear penalties, where we'd likely have scored anyway. Add in the 4 we missed, 2 of which would have changed the result.

That stat is basically meaningless to both sides of the argument.

Considering our finishing this season, I wouldn't be so sure.
 
Surly fingers need to be pointed at Kieran Mckenna and Carrick, too. These two have been under both Jose and Ole now and our football, for the most part, hasn't changed when it comes to breaking down teams. As many people have said, this isn't a new thing under Ole - this has been going to for some time. This isn't meant to absolve Ole of all blame because the man is clearly out of his depth, but if he isn't the one doing a lot of the work on the training field, then questions need to be asked of those two.

Because we haven't progressed at all in the last few seasons.

They are out of their depths.

I know looks isnt everything, but if you're sitting there with a blank look when your team is down by watford by 2-0 then you probably are clueless indeed.

If you knew something was wrong, you'd communicate, you take notes, you bark instructions, you fix the players positioning, you tell them, cheer them, not sitting in a slump like 3 stooges.
 
Blame the individual errors in this game, by all means. What would have happened if those two errors didn't occur?

A 0-0 draw with the bottom team in the league, and perhaps one of THE worst teams ever seen in 27yrs of PL football, with no clear-cut goalscoring chances.

Even that would be fecking unacceptable.
 
So, 2nd lost game last 10 Premier League games. This time because of two individuall errors. I know it is Watford and it looked bad but comon. Results will go up and down this season. We all know that. Now we lost and suddenly there is witchhunt again. Talk about knee jerk reactions.
 
It's not nice at all to see how supposed fans of this club consistently seem to underestimate how much of a weapon it can be to keep a manager for the long term. Sir Alex was probably the best example imaginable ever. Sadly a lot of people's brains don't work properly and they literally can't think ahead for more than two weeks, that's also why they are unsuccessful in real life and they can't help but poison our club with the same incompetent mentality. If the wishes of our emotionally fickle fanbase would be followed there will be another ten managers in the next ten seasons, all short term solutions that will actually hurt the long term perspective of our club instead of making us stronger.

It's like Warren Buffet beating the world's supposed top hedge fund managers over a five or ten year period by simply putting his money in an index fund: ,,Making money on the stock market "does not require great intelligence, a degree in economics or a familiarity with Wall Street jargon," he wrote. "What investors then need instead is an ability to both disregard mob fears or enthusiasms and to focus on a few simple fundamentals." "

In his first year in charge Ole might not have been perfect, but he does seems intelligent and a great natural fit, had good results against some of the best opponents we faced, and he knows this club inside out. Giving him better players and another couple of years of time will most likely create the best environment for Manchester United to thrive at this point. So that's what we need to do, simple as that.
 
It's not nice at all to see how supposed fans of this club consistently seem to underestimate how much of a weapon it can be to keep a manager for the long term. Sir Alex was probably the best example imaginable ever. Sadly a lot of people's brains don't work properly and they literally can't think ahead for more than two weeks, that's also why they are unsuccessful in real life and they can't help but poison our club with the same incompetent mentality. If the wishes of our emotionally fickle fanbase would be followed there will be another ten managers in the next ten seasons, all short term solutions that will actually hurt the long term perspective of our club instead of making us stronger.

It's like Warren Buffet beating the world's supposed top hedge fund managers over a five or ten year period by simply putting his money in an index fund: ,,Making money on the stock market "does not require great intelligence, a degree in economics or a familiarity with Wall Street jargon," he wrote. "What investors then need instead is an ability to both disregard mob fears or enthusiasms and to focus on a few simple fundamentals." "

In his first year in charge Ole might not have been perfect, but he does seems intelligent and a great natural fit, had good results against some of the best opponents we faced, and he knows this club inside out. Giving him better players and another couple of years of time will most likely create the best environment for Manchester United to thrive at this point. So that's what we need to do, simple as that.
. Yeah because there have been so many Alex Ferguson's in football. If you can't see that there is no improvement against the so called lesser sides then nothing is going to change your mind. None so blind and all that
 
The levels people will go to defend Ole :lol:


De Gea is the worst GK in the league? Seriously? Do you feel not ashamed typing that?

It’s not even close either, he’s the worst in the league by a mile.

Pinned to his line, never comes for a cross, never rushes out of his area to clear a ball over the top, distribution is god-awful. Has zero presence when closing down a one vs one and is also a bit of a coward (see his technique for turning his face away from the ball/opponents

We used to forgive him all of this because his reflexes were almost super human. Now that they are on the wane we’ve just got one very poor GK

I could understand the push back if this were one game but it’s been two years now

I’m always one of the first to call out a decline, get hammered for it and the within 12-18months it’s universally accepted on here
 
So, 2nd lost game last 10 Premier League games. This time because of two individuall errors. I know it is Watford and it looked bad but comon. Results will go up and down this season. We all know that. Now we lost and suddenly there is witchhunt again. Talk about knee jerk reactions.
Results will be up and down, correct; however, the shite, drab performances on the field appear to be becoming more and more often, especially against lower opposition.

This is one of the many reasons us fans are sick of it and want him out. We look absolutely nothing like a top half of the table football team at the moment. His ineptitude in substitutions is alarmingly apparent yet people like you come on and say that it is a knee-jerk reaction from those who are creating a witch hunt against him?

He doesn't have a plan as to how to break down defensive teams!!!, but you want him to stay?, seriously?

Obviously his coaching team are as inept and clueless as he so they should also be gone.
 
Some context - of the 20 youngest XIs fielded in the PL this year, 9 have been fielded by Utd

We’ve no CF, neither of our #10s have scored in the PL and our GK is virtually costing us a goal a game

It’s taken us 15yrs to get ourselves into this mess and 50% of this forum think we can undo that in one Summer?

Absolutely mental
 
It’s not even close either, he’s the worst in the league by a mile.

Pinned to his line, never comes for a cross, never rushes out of his area to clear a ball over the top, distribution is god-awful. Has zero presence when closing down a one vs one and is also a bit of a coward (see his technique for turning his face away from the ball/opponents

We used to forgive him all of this because his reflexes were almost super human. Now that they are on the wane we’ve just got one very poor GK

I could understand the push back if this were one game but it’s been two years now

I’m always one of the first to call out a decline, get hammered for it and the within 12-18months it’s universally accepted on here

I agree one hundred percent. I've been saying this ever since he signed for us. The only thing he has is reflexes.

Schmeichel and VDS were both complete goalkeepers. Romero and Deano are both better, and way cheaper than DDG.

His status is so overblown, it's ludicrous.
 
Remove OGSs affiliations with the club and people will look at tenure and say “Why did Utd hire a permanent manager whose primary experience is a decade in the Norwegian league?”

And that 25 points in total... Just over half of that total is made up of wins against Chelsea, Leicester, City, Spurs and draws against Liverpool and Arsenal. The rest of that was garnered from the other 13 teams we’ve played. 11 points from those 13 other teams. It’s alarming.

Any manager should be getting absolutely slaughtered. LVG and Moyes certainly would have been and rightfully so, but some people will defend OGS to the death and point fingers at individual player mistakes in games as the main reason we lost, and not the 90 minutes of looking completely clueless and not creating chances.

You're right, of course, but generally speaking, this argument is as daft as the "we've tried proven managers already" nonsense the other side often resorts to. It's not needed when more solid arguments can be made, that's my take on it. Football management is a closed occupation with a very limited pool of newcomers into the job to choose from. In this sense, the lure of giving an ex-player of the club a try and see how he performs isn't exactly a crime that warrants the death penalty. Especially at a club like United which has enjoyed two large periods of great success under two managers who both put a lot of emphasis on making Manchester a primary destination for the best British/Irish talent and who both based the foundations of their success around a family atmosphere within the club. Most clubs do it, sometimes it works and some others it doesn't. Leaving the most prolific examples aside (discussed to death at this point), a good example is the Inzaghi brothers: Both appointed at around the same time at the clubs they had spent their best years at with very limited (or nonexistent) previous managerial experience. Philippo was sacked after a season at Milan while Simone is slowly but steadily building something in Rome with Lazio. Philippo was all about talks of aggressive football while Simone, without much fanfare, started working on his 352 which suited Lazio and it was a good fit for the Serie A.

At the time of his appointment as a caretaker manager, Solskjaer was worth the punt. The club was in disarray, Mourinho had decided to sabotage the whole season and he was just waiting for his compensation and the dressing room was as toxic as it could possibly have been. Solskjaer enters and lifts up the spirits and he attempts to turn United into a proper organization again by instilling the same principles that had previously made him decide to spend his entire career with us as a super-sub (when he could have got more playing time elsewhere). The impact he achieves is immediate and it justifies the appointment as a caretaker.

Then, the problems started to pop up. The drop of form was so meteoric that it started raising legitimate questions. Excuses could be made at this point (not his squad, not his pre-season to implement tactics, not a chance to sign his own players) and some (or even most) of them were valid up to a certain degree. But besides all that, the truth of the matter was that the performances he got from his players by being a bringer of change and of a new ethos quickly vaporized into thin air when the dust settled and the feelgood factor eventually started to become less important on a game to game basis. Why? Because that's when tactics become important. The ability to win games more often than losing/drawing them through your gameplan. When it came to that, Solskjaer was found lacking many good ideas. That's why our deteriorating form last season was a major warning bell. We should have waited and he should have never got the permanent job.

But, by that time, Woodward had already made up his mind. As a non-footballing person, he needs to be sold a story. LvG came with a promise of a modern football philosophy while Mourinho walked in with his swagger, proclaiming that it's going to be easy-peasy with "four specialists". And make no mistake about it, they were both heavily backed in the transfer market. Moreso, they were allowed to do their thing. After their failures, Solskjaer presented Woodward his project of "looking toward the past to secure the future". And it's no surprise that Ed was all for it because it's a sound plan as well as a convenient one. I mean, when you admit that you can't land difficult transfer targets what's better than a manager who advocates for youth players to be tried until you can get some of the deals over the line? Especially when you have wasted a small country's GDP on dross to support the previous managers. Think about it: Maguire on 60 million is surplus for "the specialist" Mourinho but it's ok to splash 80 million on him when he becomes a part of the "new core of players at the right age who get the club". For a player who both Mourinho and Solskjaer wanted for the same tactical reasons. But who cares about tactics, right?

And this is exactly where things get fecked up. Solskjaer, despite his good intentions, is not a good manager at this level. He can't make the first team look more than the sum of its parts and he's constantly dropping points left, right and centre. In an age when the game with the ball has become prominent, his best performances come when his team sees as little of the ball as possible. His first three signings and his decision to give both Rashford and Martial the leading roles in the attack and to make McT a mainstay in the midfield attest that counter-attacking football is his game.

Does he need better players because the state of the squad is terrible? He most certainly does but he's not going to get them. One of the main reasons he got the job was because he told Woodward that no immediate spending spree was necessary. No pressure on Ed to provide the goods, he's doing a perfect job and it's just the internet fans who are spoilt that make a lot of noise (that was Solskjaer last summer). If he backs down now and holds Ed responsible for not signing players, the vision of a "slow, gradual cultural rebuild" goes out of the window and Ed will pull the trigger. Instead, he asks for more time and he has convinced many people that the squad will look completely different in a three-years time when he's the one who renews (or agrees to renew) the contracts of Young, Pereira, Lingard, Jones, Lindelof, Mata etc. The other day he was talking about the importance of "the Lingards" who understand what this club is all about... Yet, in three years, we're going to have a title-winning side... Dream on.

But you know something? It could still have worked. I wrote last summer that his status among the fanbase gives him the opportunity to push for things others could or can not. The fact that he's doing so poorly and so many people are still vehemently behind him is proof of that. This club doesn't need a cultural rebuild, it needs an electroshock of epic proportions. Someone who will get in with a mind that 80-90% of this squad won't be here two-three years down the line. And with the tactical nous to have us in the whereabouts of CL qualification (this is what Klopp has done at Liverpool) in the meantime. Not someone to toe the party line. Because the people who still trust Solskajer because they don't trust Woodward are basically supporting a manager who remains in his position because he covers up for Ed's failures. Until time runs up and he becomes the scapegoat. Which will be sad no matter if you're Ole-in or out.
 
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You're right, of course, but generally speaking, this argument is as daft as the "we've tried proven managers already" nonsense the other side often resorts to. It's not needed when more solid arguments can be made, that's my take on it. Football management is a closed occupation with a very limited pool of newcomers into the job to choose from. In this sense, the lure of giving an ex-player of the club a try and see how he performs isn't exactly a crime that warrants the death penalty. Especially at a club like United which has enjoyed two large periods of great success under two managers who both put a lot of emphasis on making Manchester a primary destination for the best British/Irish talent and who both based the foundations of their success around a family atmosphere within the club. Most clubs do it, sometimes it works and some others it doesn't. Leaving the most prolific examples aside (discussed to death at this point), a good example is the Inzaghi brothers: Both appointed at around the same time at the clubs they had spent their best years at with very limited (or nonexistent) previous managerial experience. Philippo was sacked after a season at Milan while Simone is slowly but steadily building something at Rome with Lazio. Philippo was all about talks of aggressive football while Simone, without much fanfare, started working on his 352 which suited Lazio and it was a good fit for the Serie A.

At the time of his appointment as a caretaker manager, Solskjaer was worth the punt. The club was in disarray, Mourinho had decided to sabotage the whole season and he was just waiting for his compensation and the dressing room was as toxic as it could possibly have been. Solskjaer enters and lifts up the spirits and he attempts to turn United into a proper organization again by instilling the same principles that had previously made him decide to spend his entire career with us as a super-sub (when he could have got more playing time elsewhere). The impact he achieves is immediate and it justifies the appointment as a caretaker.

Then, the problems started to pop up. The drop of form was so meteoric that it started raising legitimate questions. Excuses could be made at this point (not his squad, not his pre-season to implement tactics, not a chance to sign his own players) and some (or even most) of them were valid up to a certain degree. But besides all that, the truth of the matter was that the performances he got from his players by being a bringer of change and of a new ethos quickly vaporized into thin air when the dust settled and the feelgood factor eventually started to become less important on a game to game basis. Why? Because that's when tactics become important. The ability to win games more often than losing/drawing them through your gameplan. When it came to that, Solskjaer was found lacking many good ideas. That's why our deteriorating form last season was a major warning bell. We should have waited and he should have never got the permanent job.

But, by that time, Woodward had already made up his mind. As a non-footballing person, he needs to be sold a story. LvG came with a promise of a modern football philosophy while Mourinho walked in with his swagger, proclaiming that it's going to be easy-peasy with "four specialists". And make no mistake about it, they were both heavily backed in the transfer market. Moreso, they were allowed to do their thing. After their failures, Solskjaer presented Woodward his project of "looking toward the past to secure the future". And it's no surprise that Ed was all for it because it's a sound plan as well as a convenient one. I mean, when you admit that you can't land difficult transfer targets what's better than a manager who advocates for youth players to be tried until you can get some of the deals over the line? Especially when you have wasted a small country's GDP on dross to support the previous managers. Think about it: Maguire on 60 million is surplus for "the specialist" Mourinho but it's ok to splash 80 million on him when he becomes a part of the "new core of players at the right age who get the club". For a player who both Mourinho and Solskjaer wanted for the same tactical reasons. But who cares about tactics, right?

And this is exactly where things get fecked up. Solskjaer, despite his good intentions, is not a good manager at this level. He can't make the first team look more than the sum of its parts and he's constantly dropping points left, right and centre. In an age when the game with the ball has become prominent, his best performances come when his team sees as little of the ball as possible. His first three signings and his decision to give both Rashford and Martial the leading roles in the attack and to make McT a mainstay in the midfield attest that counter-attacking football is his game.

Does he need better players because the state of the squad is terrible? He most certainly does but he's not going to get them. One of the main reasons he got the job was because he told Woodward that no immediate spending spree was necessary. No pressure on Ed to provide the goods, he's doing a perfect job and it's just the internet fans who are spoilt that make a lot of noise (that was Solskjaer last summer). If he backs down now and holds Ed responsible for not signing players, the vision of a "slow, gradual cultural rebuild" goes out of the window and Ed will pull the trigger. Instead, he asks for more time and he has convinced many people that the squad will look completely different in a three-years time when he's the one who renews (or agrees to renew) the contracts of Young, Pereira, Lingard, Jones, Lindelof, Mata etc. The other day he was talking about the importance of "the Lingards" who understand what this club is all about... Yet, in three years, we're going to have a title-winning side... Dream on.

But you know something? It could still have worked. I wrote last summer that his status among the fanbase gives him the opportunity to push for things others could or can not. The fact that he's doing so poorly and so many people are still vehemently behind him is proof of that. This club doesn't need a cultural rebuild, it needs an electroshock of epic proportions. Someone who will get in with a mind that 80-90% of this squad won't be here two-three years down the line. And with the tactical nous to have us in the whereabouts of CL qualification (this is what Klopp has done at Liverpool) in the meantime. Not someone to toe the party line. Because the people who still trust Solskajer because they don't trust Woodward are basically supporting a manager who remains in his position because he covers up for Ed's failures. Until time runs up and he becomes the scapegoat. Which will be sad no matter if you're Ole-in or out.

Not a bad post but the difference between Solskjaer and the other three managers we’ve had post SAF is that he at least appears to have a long term plan

Moyes had no plan

LvG stated he would do three years max

Jose lost sight of any long term vision and started looking for quick fixes

That has to count for something. If it were only about achieving the best possible finish in any given season I’m sure Ole might have approached the summer window differently

In my mind, I’d written off this season and next before a ball was kicked. I think it wouldn’t hurt a few others to take this more laid back approach and just allow ALL managers who take the Utd job a minimum of two full seasons
 
Results will be up and down, correct; however, the shite, drab performances on the field appear to be becoming more and more often, especially against lower opposition.

This is one of the many reasons us fans are sick of it and want him out. We look absolutely nothing like a top half of the table football team at the moment. His ineptitude in substitutions is alarmingly apparent yet people like you come on and say that it is a knee-jerk reaction from those who are creating a witch hunt against him?

He doesn't have a plan as to how to break down defensive teams!!!, but you want him to stay?, seriously?

Obviously his coaching team are as inept and clueless as he so they should also be gone.
But we look like Barca playing top 6 teams. Ok, not like Barca but like a dominant force. You got to give time to fix things. We now see that we got to start winning against lesser good teams and we have to change our approach in those games. For that you need players. If Solskjaer doesn’t see and don’t try to fix that in januari and summer then I would become little bit more critical. But he needs time to do that before people calling for his head and to be replaced by Howe, Potter, Farke, Poch and other names being written in here.
 
You're right, of course, but generally speaking, this argument is as daft as the "we've tried proven managers already" nonsense the other side often resorts to. It's not needed when more solid arguments can be made, that's my take on it. Football management is a closed occupation with a very limited pool of newcomers into the job to choose from. In this sense, the lure of giving an ex-player of the club a try and see how he performs isn't exactly a crime that warrants the death penalty. Especially at a club like United which has enjoyed two large periods of great success under two managers who both put a lot of emphasis on making Manchester a primary destination for the best British/Irish talent and who both based the foundations of their success around a family atmosphere within the club. Most clubs do it, sometimes it works and some others it doesn't. Leaving the most prolific examples aside (discussed to death at this point), a good example is the Inzaghi brothers: Both appointed at around the same time at the clubs they had spent their best years at with very limited (or nonexistent) previous managerial experience. Philippo was sacked after a season at Milan while Simone is slowly but steadily building something at Rome with Lazio. Philippo was all about talks of aggressive football while Simone, without much fanfare, started working on his 352 which suited Lazio and it was a good fit for the Serie A.

At the time of his appointment as a caretaker manager, Solskjaer was worth the punt. The club was in disarray, Mourinho had decided to sabotage the whole season and he was just waiting for his compensation and the dressing room was as toxic as it could possibly have been. Solskjaer enters and lifts up the spirits and he attempts to turn United into a proper organization again by instilling the same principles that had previously made him decide to spend his entire career with us as a super-sub (when he could have got more playing time elsewhere). The impact he achieves is immediate and it justifies the appointment as a caretaker.

Then, the problems started to pop up. The drop of form was so meteoric that it started raising legitimate questions. Excuses could be made at this point (not his squad, not his pre-season to implement tactics, not a chance to sign his own players) and some (or even most) of them were valid up to a certain degree. But besides all that, the truth of the matter was that the performances he got from his players by being a bringer of change and of a new ethos quickly vaporized into thin air when the dust settled and the feelgood factor eventually started to become less important on a game to game basis. Why? Because that's when tactics become important. The ability to win games more often than losing/drawing them through your gameplan. When it came to that, Solskjaer was found lacking many good ideas. That's why our deteriorating form last season was a major warning bell. We should have waited and he should have never got the permanent job.

But, by that time, Woodward had already made up his mind. As a non-footballing person, he needs to be sold a story. LvG came with a promise of a modern football philosophy while Mourinho walked in with his swagger, proclaiming that it's going to be easy-peasy with "four specialists". And make no mistake about it, they were both heavily backed in the transfer market. Moreso, they were allowed to do their thing. After their failures, Solskjaer presented Woodward his project of "looking toward the past to secure the future". And it's no surprise that Ed was all for it because it's a sound plan as well as a convenient one. I mean, when you admit that you can't land difficult transfer targets what's better than a manager who advocates for youth players to be tried until you can get some of the deals over the line? Especially when you have wasted a small country's GDP on dross to support the previous managers. Think about it: Maguire on 60 million is surplus for "the specialist" Mourinho but it's ok to splash 80 million on him when he becomes a part of the "new core of players at the right age who get the club". For a player who both Mourinho and Solskjaer wanted for the same tactical reasons. But who cares about tactics, right?

And this is exactly where things get fecked up. Solskjaer, despite his good intentions, is not a good manager at this level. He can't make the first team look more than the sum of its parts and he's constantly dropping points left, right and centre. In an age when the game with the ball has become prominent, his best performances come when his team sees as little of the ball as possible. His first three signings and his decision to give both Rashford and Martial the leading roles in the attack and to make McT a mainstay in the midfield attest that counter-attacking football is his game.

Does he need better players because the state of the squad is terrible? He most certainly does but he's not going to get them. One of the main reasons he got the job was because he told Woodward that no immediate spending spree was necessary. No pressure on Ed to provide the goods, he's doing a perfect job and it's just the internet fans who are spoilt that make a lot of noise (that was Solskjaer last summer). If he backs down now and holds Ed responsible for not signing players, the vision of a "slow, gradual cultural rebuild" goes out of the window and Ed will pull the trigger. Instead, he asks for more time and he has convinced many people that the squad will look completely different in a three-years time when he's the one who renews (or agrees to renew) the contracts of Young, Pereira, Lingard, Jones, Lindelof, Mata etc. The other day he was talking about the importance of "the Lingards" who understand what this club is all about... Yet, in three years, we're going to have a title-winning side... Dream on.

But you know something? It could still have worked. I wrote last summer that his status among the fanbase gives him the opportunity to push for things others could or can not. The fact that he's doing so poorly and so many people are still vehemently behind him is proof of that. This club doesn't need a cultural rebuild, it needs an electroshock of epic proportions. Someone who will get in with a mind that 80-90% of this squad won't be here two-three years down the line. And with the tactical nous to have us in the whereabouts of CL qualification (this is what Klopp has done at Liverpool) in the meantime. Not someone to toe the party line. Because the people who still trust Solskajer because they don't trust Woodward are basically supporting a manager who remains in his position because he covers up for Ed's failures. Until time runs up and he becomes the scapegoat. Which will be sad no matter if you're Ole-in or out.
Great post.
 
You're right, of course, but generally speaking, this argument is as daft as the "we've tried proven managers already" nonsense the other side often resorts to. It's not needed when more solid arguments can be made, that's my take on it. Football management is a closed occupation with a very limited pool of newcomers into the job to choose from. In this sense, the lure of giving an ex-player of the club a try and see how he performs isn't exactly a crime that warrants the death penalty. Especially at a club like United which has enjoyed two large periods of great success under two managers who both put a lot of emphasis on making Manchester a primary destination for the best British/Irish talent and who both based the foundations of their success around a family atmosphere within the club. Most clubs do it, sometimes it works and some others it doesn't. Leaving the most prolific examples aside (discussed to death at this point), a good example is the Inzaghi brothers: Both appointed at around the same time at the clubs they had spent their best years at with very limited (or nonexistent) previous managerial experience. Philippo was sacked after a season at Milan while Simone is slowly but steadily building something at Rome with Lazio. Philippo was all about talks of aggressive football while Simone, without much fanfare, started working on his 352 which suited Lazio and it was a good fit for the Serie A.

At the time of his appointment as a caretaker manager, Solskjaer was worth the punt. The club was in disarray, Mourinho had decided to sabotage the whole season and he was just waiting for his compensation and the dressing room was as toxic as it could possibly have been. Solskjaer enters and lifts up the spirits and he attempts to turn United into a proper organization again by instilling the same principles that had previously made him decide to spend his entire career with us as a super-sub (when he could have got more playing time elsewhere). The impact he achieves is immediate and it justifies the appointment as a caretaker.

Then, the problems started to pop up. The drop of form was so meteoric that it started raising legitimate questions. Excuses could be made at this point (not his squad, not his pre-season to implement tactics, not a chance to sign his own players) and some (or even most) of them were valid up to a certain degree. But besides all that, the truth of the matter was that the performances he got from his players by being a bringer of change and of a new ethos quickly vaporized into thin air when the dust settled and the feelgood factor eventually started to become less important on a game to game basis. Why? Because that's when tactics become important. The ability to win games more often than losing/drawing them through your gameplan. When it came to that, Solskjaer was found lacking many good ideas. That's why our deteriorating form last season was a major warning bell. We should have waited and he should have never got the permanent job.

But, by that time, Woodward had already made up his mind. As a non-footballing person, he needs to be sold a story. LvG came with a promise of a modern football philosophy while Mourinho walked in with his swagger, proclaiming that it's going to be easy-peasy with "four specialists". And make no mistake about it, they were both heavily backed in the transfer market. Moreso, they were allowed to do their thing. After their failures, Solskjaer presented Woodward his project of "looking toward the past to secure the future". And it's no surprise that Ed was all for it because it's a sound plan as well as a convenient one. I mean, when you admit that you can't land difficult transfer targets what's better than a manager who advocates for youth players to be tried until you can get some of the deals over the line? Especially when you have wasted a small country's GDP on dross to support the previous managers. Think about it: Maguire on 60 million is surplus for "the specialist" Mourinho but it's ok to splash 80 million on him when he becomes a part of the "new core of players at the right age who get the club". For a player who both Mourinho and Solskjaer wanted for the same tactical reasons. But who cares about tactics, right?

And this is exactly where things get fecked up. Solskjaer, despite his good intentions, is not a good manager at this level. He can't make the first team look more than the sum of its parts and he's constantly dropping points left, right and centre. In an age when the game with the ball has become prominent, his best performances come when his team sees as little of the ball as possible. His first three signings and his decision to give both Rashford and Martial the leading roles in the attack and to make McT a mainstay in the midfield attest that counter-attacking football is his game.

Does he need better players because the state of the squad is terrible? He most certainly does but he's not going to get them. One of the main reasons he got the job was because he told Woodward that no immediate spending spree was necessary. No pressure on Ed to provide the goods, he's doing a perfect job and it's just the internet fans who are spoilt that make a lot of noise (that was Solskjaer last summer). If he backs down now and holds Ed responsible for not signing players, the vision of a "slow, gradual cultural rebuild" goes out of the window and Ed will pull the trigger. Instead, he asks for more time and he has convinced many people that the squad will look completely different in a three-years time when he's the one who renews (or agrees to renew) the contracts of Young, Pereira, Lingard, Jones, Lindelof, Mata etc. The other day he was talking about the importance of "the Lingards" who understand what this club is all about... Yet, in three years, we're going to have a title-winning side... Dream on.

But you know something? It could still have worked. I wrote last summer that his status among the fanbase gives him the opportunity to push for things others could or can not. The fact that he's doing so poorly and so many people are still vehemently behind him is proof of that. This club doesn't need a cultural rebuild, it needs an electroshock of epic proportions. Someone who will get in with a mind that 80-90% of this squad won't be here two-three years down the line. And with the tactical nous to have us in the whereabouts of CL qualification (this is what Klopp has done at Liverpool) in the meantime. Not someone to toe the party line. Because the people who still trust Solskajer because they don't trust Woodward are basically supporting a manager who remains in his position because he covers up for Ed's failures. Until time runs up and he becomes the scapegoat. Which will be sad no matter if you're Ole-in or out.




Very good post.

We should never have given him the job full-time without seeing how he finished last season. There was no need at all to jump the gun, no other teams wanted him, he wasnt in demand or similar. However, I don't really begrudge the board's decision per se because it was a gamble but a gamble that seemed to at least have something appealing to it.

A romanticised, sentimental appeal, but an appeal nonetheless. "What a fairytale this could be...." isn't really a great way to make decisions at the helm of a football club but it's not completely ridiculous I suppose. It had 'something' to it. But that something died within a couple of months this season, the tail-end of last season was proven to be, not a fluke, but the norm. Business as usual.

There is also no shame in putting up your hands and saying "we took a gamble, the gamble didnt pay off."
 
Not a bad post but the difference between Solskjaer and the other three managers we’ve had post SAF is that he at least appears to have a long term plan


Delusional.

Most managers have 'long term' plans, most get the sack when their plans don't survive their encounter with reality.
 
Delusional.

Most managers have 'long term' plans, most get the sack when their plans don't survive their encounter with reality.


So much this.

The vast majority of managers sell a 'long term plan' to their prospective employers when interviewing for the job. If they're shite at their job, they don't get the time to implement that long-term plan. Simple as that - we are no different to any other football club and the sooner we start basing our behaviour in reality rather than fantasy and sentiment, the better.
 
So, 2nd lost game last 10 Premier League games. This time because of two individuall errors. I know it is Watford and it looked bad but comon. Results will go up and down this season. We all know that. Now we lost and suddenly there is witchhunt again. Talk about knee jerk reactions.
Knowing it does not make acceptable. We are not fecking West Brom or Norwich to think losing more than winning is acceptable. This fecking maddens has to end, and that only happens by sending this novice manager back to where his level is, the Norwegian league.
 
It's not nice at all to see how supposed fans of this club consistently seem to underestimate how much of a weapon it can be to keep a manager for the long term. Sir Alex was probably the best example imaginable ever. Sadly a lot of people's brains don't work properly and they literally can't think ahead for more than two weeks, that's also why they are unsuccessful in real life and they can't help but poison our club with the same incompetent mentality. If the wishes of our emotionally fickle fanbase would be followed there will be another ten managers in the next ten seasons, all short term solutions that will actually hurt the long term perspective of our club instead of making us stronger.

It's like Warren Buffet beating the world's supposed top hedge fund managers over a five or ten year period by simply putting his money in an index fund: ,,Making money on the stock market "does not require great intelligence, a degree in economics or a familiarity with Wall Street jargon," he wrote. "What investors then need instead is an ability to both disregard mob fears or enthusiasms and to focus on a few simple fundamentals." "

In his first year in charge Ole might not have been perfect, but he does seems intelligent and a great natural fit, had good results against some of the best opponents we faced, and he knows this club inside out. Giving him better players and another couple of years of time will most likely create the best environment for Manchester United to thrive at this point. So that's what we need to do, simple as that.
Cut this nonsense, and talk objectively. If you are coming up with lame excuses and instead accusing posters and fans of being incompetent mentality, you should never discuss on forums. How do you know posters here are unsuccessful in real life? do you have access to everyone's fecking private life?
 
Precisely why my so called negative tune never changes regardless of the result. We're going nowhere slowly. It doesn't matter if we get a big win or not. We are simply going nowhere. Mind you high quality coaches like Ten Hag, Luis Enrique and Allegri are walking around unemployed. This is nothing short of madness.

Even Arsenal is trying to sort something out. Everyone is showing more ambition than we are. We've really forgotten all the great man built here and that's a damn shame.
 
So much this.

The vast majority of managers sell a 'long term plan' to their prospective employers when interviewing for the job. If they're shite at their job, they don't get the time to implement that long-term plan. Simple as that - we are no different to any other football club and the sooner we start basing our behaviour in reality rather than fantasy and sentiment, the better.

What has fantasy and sentiment got to do with it?
 
Having an incompetent manager for a long period of time is only going to lead a worse situation than we are in now. Why don't some understand that?
 
There was a reason I was hesitant to change my vote to keep as I wanted to see how he does against these so called bottom teams and not to my surprise we are falling in the same trap. Under Ole we go one step forward and two steps backward. He has no idea how to win games when a goal down or two. Yesterday his body language was so negative.

don't think he will be sacked any time soon. We have to let him finish the season and go for the next target in the meantime. Unless the manager we have chosen as out target is ready to take over then maybe Ole should be informed and let go, but with this board I doubt anything good can happen.
 
Just changed my vote again to sack. Prolly the 3rd time I’ve changed my vote :lol:

I changed it once, we had a good month and I changed it after the Everton game. I swiftly changed it back this morning and I can't envisage that I'll be changing it again.
 
Not a bad post but the difference between Solskjaer and the other three managers we’ve had post SAF is that he at least appears to have a long term plan

Moyes had no plan

LvG stated he would do three years max

Jose lost sight of any long term vision and started looking for quick fixes

That has to count for something. If it were only about achieving the best possible finish in any given season I’m sure Ole might have approached the summer window differently

In my mind, I’d written off this season and next before a ball was kicked. I think it wouldn’t hurt a few others to take this more laid back approach and just allow ALL managers who take the Utd job a minimum of two full seasons

It's one thing to have a long-term plan and stick to it and it's a whole different deal to sit and watch the band play with a glass of wine in hand while the Titanic is slowly sinking. And while i'm not sure we have reached the point of no return for Solskjaer, i can't help but fear that we're heading toward this direction.

In my post, i admitted that Solskjaer's intentions are noble and the plan, in its basic principles, is as good as any we had before. In fact, it resonates with a huge portion of the fanbase (even Ole-out posters who crave for wholesome changes in the squad and a new approach) and given the universal (or close to it) dissatisfaction for Woodward and the way he's been dealing with the footballing matters of the club, it could have bought Solskjaer a lot more credit.

The reason it hasn't is because he has failed to (yet) produce anything sustainable on a week by week basis. Something to hold on to besides the sporadic wins against better sides who will take the initiative and allow us to play on the counter. How many goals have we created by stealing the ball high on the pitch and hitting the opposition between transitions? On how many occasions have we managed to pin down opponents by collecting second balls or regaining possession high up the pitch? Because these should be the benefits of high-pressing tactics and a demanding pre-season. And these were the things Solskjaer told us to expect from him. It's also OK to give youth a chance and keep a thin squad because you want to wait until the right players become available. I can get behind that, especially after seeing the club waste millions on players who offered next to nothing. But when one injury (Martial) changes roles in the rest of our attacking options (Marcus centrally, James on the left, Andreas as a RW) and another (Pogba) makes us completely unable to move the ball through the lines with purpose and urgency (which is the only gameplan we have atm), you look like someone who hasn't put much thought in how the season is going to pan out.

I'm mentioning such things because, to me, they're as important as the good things Solskjaer is trying to instil. And in my book, this is the number one reason managers are being paid the big bucks: To plan out the season, work with worst-case scenarios and come up with tactical solutions that will allow them to avoid deadends when things really go south. I know where you're coming from. The need for this club to become a family again, the need for the first team to develop a central core of players who will carry the team through thick and thin, the need for the fans to feel that the United we have known is close to being materialized again. These are traits we should look in our manager.

I'd be OK with writing this season (and the next one too) off, if by "writing off" we mean that we're not going to see any title challenge and it will be a 50/50 chance of us achieving CL qualification. And, believe it or not, this is what Solskjaer was suggesting at the end of last season too. That's where he set the bar himself (look for his presser after GW38 last season on YT). What we're seeing right now doesn't look good. And with Woodward in charge, it will probably not become better any time soon. Solskjaer is on his own and he has to come up with some answers for his own sake.

And if we're being honest here, the fact that all clubs except for Liverpool and Leicester are either going through the motions or are in a transitional state like us, makes things look much better than they actually are. No way we could have been in sight of CL qualification with a "cemented" top-four after losing/drawing so many games. And other clubs, like Spurs and Chelsea, seem to be ahead of us in the race of reinventing themselves. This situation bears resemblance with LvG's first season when we thought we were going places (wins in big games, good form in the final stages of the season) but it was just everyone else around us being mediocre or just good at best that made us look better than we were. The difference is that they are better run than us and they eventually found their way.

I can also understand the argument that sacking and then finding his replacement is more complex than it seems. For instance, take a look at Poch. If he agrees to take the United job on the premise that he will have to work with these players and squeeze every ounce of quality he can get from them, he'll be a dead man walking in no time. After all, the reasons that made him lose the plot at Spurs (no backing in the transfer market) will be ever-present at United. And Allegri is a master tactician but he's not a miracle worker. On the other hand, Solskjaer must do a bit better. We have to do a bit better on the pitch. Because if we admit that there's absolutely nothing he can do (completely and utterly write the season off), then there's no reason to keep him. Is there? Because the few good players we have or will get will always search for greener pastures and the rebuilding will never end unless we stumble upon the new Class of '92.

Just my two cents on the matter.
 
He will get us to play better with better players obviously as better players have better technical ability.
But he will not win us anything as he doesn't have a clue to set up in this period. His space utilisation and space denial is non existent.
You simply cannot play like the way he wants to play against most of the teams.
That shows he has very basic flaws to his coaching. Anyone can get a coaching badge. Honestly this coaching badge is simply a scam and a money spinner for UEFA. The great coaches of SAF, Cruijff never had a coaching badge from UEFA. Why should they? They are better than the so called UEFA coaches.
Anyone with any sense can see our movements are non existent and we don't know how to use space or most importantly deny space.
You simply cannot play like that. Man City was stupid to play so open against us from the start.

As Advocate said this is going to end up badly for us. No player worth his salt is going to come to United to be coached by a non entity. I bet Maguire is looking bemused now as he would be playing in the CL if he had stayed in his old club.
I would understand if Pogba wants to go. He is a world class players who has to play in a mid table club under a manager who has not won anything of note and moreover doesn't even know how to coach properly.
He can go anywhere and be coached by top coaches and win trophies and maybe even the CL.
Ole needs to be sacked ASAP.
 
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