This is a terrible argument. Titles in Norway mean nothing compared with Pochettino’s work with Spurs.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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This is a terrible argument. Titles in Norway mean nothing compared with Pochettino’s work with Spurs.
Its not obvious unless you've prejudged it to be so. Whats obvious is that he genuinely cares about the club. If it all starts going to shit you won't see articles about him distancing himself from the players and talking about being tired and going home (as you have with both Jose and Poch). He's probably the only manager we have had who has had a terrible run of form and didn't lose all the players and looks like he could actually turn it around.
Also nobody's saying he's going to be another SAF - thats a straight up strawman to deflect from the real point - the point is if your attitude was adopted back in '89 neither would SAF have been what he was.
You give ridiculously talented world class striker to a manager and the striker will make him look really good.
I am not telling others what to do, seems you have a reading issue. Failing happens to every manager at different points in time. Whether consistently they could do with less failure is what matters.
Seems consistently finishing in 2,3,4 in PL except 1 season is worth less than winning a season in Norway for you. Winning in Norway is less than getting a team promoted from Championship.
With 3 main players in last year of contract in spurs and Poch too guilty of looking for other jobs after CL final, Spurs current season was destined to fail. They need a new start with a different manager.
I can't see Ole lasting till end of season unless United is okay with midtable finish outside Europa league. My point is we will need a better manager in near future, we should get one when they are available.
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You have to ask is the current manager doing anything that Poch couldn't have done here at United?
I look at the positives that Ole is ceremoniously praised for and check to see if they could be replicated or bettered by another top flight manager like Poch
Ole's achievements
Now let's look at Pochs achievements and ask if Ole would have been able replicate or better them
I look at the positives that Ole is ceremoniously praised for and check to see if they could be replicated or bettered by another top flight manager like Poch
Ole's achievements
- Make three good instant impact signings after spending 130 million
- Sell players on high wages(im refraining from calling them dead wood while we have the likes of young, Mata, Jones not only still on our books but rewarded with big new fat contracts)
- Promote youth from within
- Bring back United DNA(whatever that means)
- Attacking football(in spells so far)
- 6th place finish in first half season
- Current season dragged us up from 14th place to 7th while insisting there will be peaks and valleys before we can even hope to become a top 6 team.
Now let's look at Pochs achievements and ask if Ole would have been able replicate or better them
- Took a team consistently flirting with relegation and transformed them into a top 10 team having them finish 8th in his first full season after making three vital signings in Osvaldo for 15million, Lovren 8mil and Victor Wanyama for 12 million. Also developed Luke Shaw, made players out of Schneiderlin, Lallana who were considered average nobodies and had this team who were heading for relegation before he took over play high intensity free flowing attacking football on a regular basis
- Took over mid table Spurs and promoted the likes of Dier, Lamela, Dele Alli and Harry Kane, moulding the latter two into world class players and transforming spurs into becoming a regular top 4 team despite losing key players in Bale and Modric after taking over
- With no spending last summer managed to take Spurs to their first ever CL final and finish 4th at the same time.
Prejudged? I've watched every game since Ole took over. It's obvious to everyone in the footballing world except the pro-Ole section of United fans. Caring about the club means nothing if you don't produce the results. Your second point is a tiresome contradiction. If you don't want people saying to you that we're not getting another SAF then don't invoke SAF's time at the club. What happened with him was both a long time ago and unique to him and only him. His example is a once in a lifetime example. Every other successful club in the world changes managers who are out of their depth or not producing results and then replace them with someone who can.
I did say competitive achievement. For me winning a league in a domestic environment as weak as the Norwegian league is minute compared to that of the league or any of Spain / Germany / Italy / England / France.
The reason why Poch deserves more credit is because he wasn't given the resources to succeed at Spurs and still had them competitive challenging for the league and UCL. If you want an example of the magnitude of it, let's give Solskjaer 4 years to build a top team with a NET spend of 29 million and see how far he gets.
You got more wrong than right there. That's impressive.
- Spurs were in no way a mid-table team when Poch took over. It's a tired myth that needs to die.
- He promoted none of the players you mentioned.
- Lamela has had one good season under Poch. He was also signed before Poch arrived, as a first team player for big money.
- Bale and Modric both left before Poch joined.
applause to every word. Football is human resource driven business: it takes a lot of time and structural changes to build a successful team. Ole is way ahead of schedule, he outperformed my expectations in every department after just one transfer window. Do you realize he’s not just a coach, he is in charge of the whole Football things at Manchester United Football Club? The club told us so directly, and no one cares to listen to the Club they are supposed to support. Are Poch lovers here proposing to replace a Manager with a coach again? A coach might play beautiful football, win against a Real Madrid, get to the CL finals but he will not build a bloody Manchester United empire! Ole is a Manager. A very good one who turned a provincial Molde team (Molde population is only 27.000!!!) into a respectable Club, a contender on par with clubs from Oslo, Bergen or Stavanger. It’s not about coaching, it’s about management. And you always get right coaching when you have a right management. Proof is Sir Alex Ferguson. Now, for those deluded FM fans here: we are not hiring a DOF, or Football Director because we are Manchester United and we have a Manager!
now, Poch is a an outstanding coach, but he doesn’t have credentials as a Manager. I’m not saying he’s not good as a manager, he just didn’t have a chance. Ole, on the other hand, is delivering results as a manager not only at Molde, but here at United. Don’t be blind
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Spurs had only finished twice in top 4 in their entire prem history, before Poch took over.
Before that Spurs consistently finished either 5th/6th or below. That's mid table no matter how you want to dress it up
Anyway you've missed the point of the post
The point is to assess and ask the question would Poch be able to achieve the same as Ole and vice versa.
The fact that you dodged the question and instead decided to deflect by inaccurately nitpicking things tells me you can't objectively answer the question.
Btw which players that I mentioned did he not promote into first team regulars and develop into becoming world class players?
Auch. If you're not into the norwegian league, it of course means nothing, and vice versa it means everything. Somehow i therefore find that a terrible argument too..
It was a normal question.
Yeah, well 5th is hardly relegation material is it?
When Poch took over from Villas Boas Spurs had a very good spine to work with and everyone there was nearing their peak years. Then they had Kane come through the academy and suddenly they had the best striker in England as well.
Spurs has done well at Tottenham no doubt, but "would Poch be able to achieve the same as Ole and vice versa" is impossible to answer and anyone claiming one or the other would have done better is pure speculation
You just can't sack Ole just because suddenly another manager is available.
Klopp was sacked by Dortmund when the season ended. Although Liverpool persisted with Rodgers, they knew they could pull the trigger and get Klopp in. They were lucky that Klopp wasn't poached by anyone else.
If Woody does sack Ole now and appoints Poch, it again shows that this club is run purely on reactionary basis. Giving Ole the job prematurely, sacking him when another candidate is available etc etc.
However this puts Ole under tremendous pressure. 1-2 bad games and Poch and his agent will be knocking the doors at Carrington.
Klopp was sacked by Dortmund when the season ended. Although Liverpool persisted with Rodgers, they knew they could pull the trigger and get Klopp in. They were lucky that Klopp wasn't poached by anyone else.
If Woody does sack Ole now and appoints Poch, it again shows that this club is run purely on reactionary basis. Giving Ole the job prematurely, sacking him when another candidate is available etc etc.
However this puts Ole under tremendous pressure. 1-2 bad games and Poch and his agent will be knocking the doors at Carrington.
So Kane He just picked and coached himself into the player he is today? . There was no coaching involved to develop his game? We're going to disingenuously take credit away from the job Poch did to help improve their young players and make them mainstays in the first team?
Brandon Williams was floating around in the academy likewise Greenwood. If they turns out to be great consistent first team players in the future, I'm sure you'll be the first to assign credit and praise Ole for his work in coaching them and maintaining trust in them, which would be the right thing to do. You wouldn't try and twist it and say they were already in the academy when he arrived.
As for the squad he took over, you're rewriting history here.
Was this team superior to the United team Ole took over?
Lloris
Danny Rose
Younès Kaboul
Jan Vertonghen
Tom Huddlestone
Zek Friyes
Chad Dawson
Aaron Lennon
Scott Parker
Capoue
Emmanuel Adebayor
Jamaine Defoe
Arron Lennon
Onomah
Mousah Dembele
Naughton
Kyle Walker
Clint Dempsey
Winks
Kane
Who were these guys who were in their peak and primed? Kane was a itty bitty boy at 17 years old who no one had heard of and so was Winks.
So much of those players look like deadwood to me.
The only exception young talents who were ready to be the spin of the team as you say were Walker, Erikson and Vertonghen
Poch finished 5th with that team after they finished 6th the previous season, while having them play attacking football.
Compare that to the team Ole took over which has
De Gea
Smalling
Lindelof
Tuazenbe
Darmian
Dalot
Jones
Rojo
Baily
Shaw
Young
Matic
Fred
Fellaini
Herrera
Pogba
Sanchez
Lingard
Martial
Rashford
Lukaku
With that same team we finished 6th in Ole's first half season in charge. After Ole has put his stamp on the team through pre season and signings, now we're languishing mid table, having periods where we flirt with settling in the bottom of half the table. Top 4 out of the equation where many would be ecstatic if we finished 6th again.
And you say there is no way of knowing whether Poch would have been able to replicate or improve on that
Which resume will they be knocking the door with? Staying lower in the table with a better squad or saying trophies are for egos? Give me a break
I wasn't comparing it to Pochs achievement though. I just pointed out your innacurate assertion that Ole's best achievement was getting relegated with Cardiff.
Pogba was the world record signing that Jose benched by the time he left.
Bailly was awful
Ibra was 35 and effectively retired after twelve months.
It's mind boggling that people are arguing that whether Mkhi or Bailly were crap signings.
So all Poch would have to do is finish 5th while playing attacking football?So Kane He just picked and coached himself into the player he is today? . There was no coaching involved to develop his game? We're going to disingenuously take credit away from the job Poch did to help improve their young players and make them mainstays in the first team?
Brandon Williams was floating around in the academy likewise Greenwood. If they turns out to be great consistent first team players in the future, I'm sure you'll be the first to assign credit and praise Ole for his work in coaching them and maintaining trust in them, which would be the right thing to do. You wouldn't try and twist it and say they were already in the academy when he arrived.
As for the squad he took over, you're rewriting history here.
Was this team superior to the United team Ole took over?
Lloris
Danny Rose
Younès Kaboul
Jan Vertonghen
Tom Huddlestone
Zek Friyes
Chad Dawson
Aaron Lennon
Scott Parker
Capoue
Emmanuel Adebayor
Jamaine Defoe
Arron Lennon
Onomah
Mousah Dembele
Naughton
Kyle Walker
Clint Dempsey
Winks
Kane
Who were these guys who were in their peak and primed? Kane was a itty bitty boy at 17 years old who no one had heard of and so was Winks.
So much of those players look like deadwood to me.
The only exception young talents who were ready to be the spin of the team as you say were Walker, Erikson and Vertonghen
Poch finished 5th with that team after they finished 6th the previous season, while having them play attacking football.
Compare that to the team Ole took over which has
De Gea
Smalling
Lindelof
Tuazenbe
Darmian
Dalot
Jones
Rojo
Baily
Shaw
Young
Matic
Fred
Fellaini
Herrera
Pogba
Sanchez
Lingard
Martial
Rashford
Lukaku
With that same team we finished 6th in Ole's first half season in charge. After Ole has put his stamp on the team through pre season and signings, now we're languishing mid table, having periods where we flirt with settling in the bottom of half the table. Top 4 out of the equation where many would be ecstatic if we finished 6th again.
And you say there is no way of knowing whether Poch would have been able to replicate or improve on that
And Klopp finished 8th in his first season. United struggled for years under SAF. This is not a short term thing. You need to stop looking so much into early results. It's about rebuilding the squad properly over a couple of seasons. That's all that matters.So Kane He just picked and coached himself into the player he is today? . There was no coaching involved to develop his game? We're going to disingenuously take credit away from the job Poch did to help improve their young players and make them mainstays in the first team?
Brandon Williams was floating around in the academy likewise Greenwood. If they turns out to be great consistent first team players in the future, I'm sure you'll be the first to assign credit and praise Ole for his work in coaching them and maintaining trust in them, which would be the right thing to do. You wouldn't try and twist it and say they were already in the academy when he arrived.
As for the squad he took over, you're rewriting history here.
Was this team superior to the United team Ole took over?
Lloris
Danny Rose
Younès Kaboul
Jan Vertonghen
Tom Huddlestone
Zek Friyes
Chad Dawson
Aaron Lennon
Scott Parker
Capoue
Emmanuel Adebayor
Jamaine Defoe
Arron Lennon
Onomah
Mousah Dembele
Naughton
Kyle Walker
Clint Dempsey
Winks
Kane
Who were these guys who were in their peak and primed? Kane was a itty bitty boy at 17 years old who no one had heard of and so was Winks.
So much of those players look like deadwood to me.
The only exception young talents who were ready to be the spin of the team as you say were Walker, Erikson and Vertonghen
Poch finished 5th with that team after they finished 6th the previous season, while having them play attacking football.
Compare that to the team Ole took over which has
De Gea
Smalling
Lindelof
Tuazenbe
Darmian
Dalot
Jones
Rojo
Baily
Shaw
Young
Matic
Fred
Fellaini
Herrera
Pogba
Sanchez
Lingard
Martial
Rashford
Lukaku
With that same team we finished 6th in Ole's first half season in charge. After Ole has put his stamp on the team through pre season and signings, now we're languishing mid table, having periods where we flirt with settling in the bottom of half the table. Top 4 out of the equation where many would be ecstatic if we finished 6th again.
And you say there is no way of knowing whether Poch would have been able to replicate or improve on that
People being one person?
I doubt you'll hear any but the staunchest Mourinho or LvG fan argue against their signings largely being awful nor will you hear many people argue against Ole's signings being, at a minimum, an improvement on theirs (so far, anyway). But the main defense of Ole on here always seems to be "he made good signings when our previous managers didn't" which is a damp squib itself because it's not exactly difficult to improve on how awful they were. If being an improvement in one area on two managers who basically failed here is Ole's biggest selling point then god fecking help us.
Don't know what SAF and Klopp have to do with comparing Poch(who is now available) to Ole. Nevertheless let's get into it.
How many times does it need to be said. Ole is and never will be Fergie. We could hire any sub standard and let them struggle, and pretend that they will come good because SAF onced struggle once upon a time in Manchester.
Tell me why didn't Liverpool give Roy Hodgson time because SAF once struggled? Should they have had more patience and kept him instead of choosing Klopp?
What about Stuart Pearce, caretaker and Man City Legend, who got sacked from his dream job after an impressive first season in charge? SAF struggled so they should have kept him according to your logic? instead of changing until they got the right man in Pep? They should've realised Pearce was destined to become like Fergie if given time and just ignored the results and football on the pitch?
Btw Klopp didn't have a pre season when he first took over Liverpool
Still had them playing the best most fruitful attacking football in the league behind Man City in numbers of goals scored. They didn't go on long runs without scoring more than 1 goal or struggle to land more than handful of shots on target.
Regardless of their league finish, he earned goodwill and trust from his reputation and accomplishments in Dortmund whilst having to compete against the mighty juggernaut Bayern Munich . A tale which has been repeated over and over again.
He also reached two Finals in his first season, again I will stress without a pre-season and not spending a single penny.
And no one is looking at this from early results, I'm looking at this from as far wide as spectrum as possible, going back to Ole's time and methods at Cardiff. The same complaints Cardiff fans have of him, are the same opinions current objective united supporters have of him, who are not blinded by player legend status and nostalgia
If you think it takes years to take a club that finished 2nd the season before last, to go full circle in trying to get back them into the top 6, then give me some of that Ole koolaid you got so I can start believing in this regressive devolving plan which you seem to think is progress.
I won't be able to reply to your response since daily limit, but be interested in hearing if those managers who I mentioned were were wrongly sacked because SAF once struggled somewhere back in 1989
It's only a matter of January or February or march or may now . Hopefully Poch is still available when it happens
Yes and you conveniently missed out on the part that the 2 seasons they finished top-4 were how long before Pochettino took over ? One could perhaps say that is relevant.
Spurs sacked one of their greatest ever manager after a Cl final season before United sacked Ole . This is just surreal
It is - they were without doubt crap signings!
And boy is he under pressure but I think Poch needs a sabbatical to rid himself of any toxicity and lingering bitterness from the Spurs fall out.
So Kane He just picked and coached himself into the player he is today? . There was no coaching involved to develop his game? We're going to disingenuously take credit away from the job Poch did to help improve their young players and make them mainstays in the first team?
Brandon Williams was floating around in the academy likewise Greenwood. If they turns out to be great consistent first team players in the future, I'm sure you'll be the first to assign credit and praise Ole for his work in coaching them and maintaining trust in them, which would be the right thing to do. You wouldn't try and twist it and say they were already in the academy when he arrived.
As for the squad he took over, you're rewriting history here.
Was this team superior to the United team Ole took over?
Lloris
Danny Rose
Younès Kaboul
Jan Vertonghen
Tom Huddlestone
Zek Friyes
Chad Dawson
Aaron Lennon
Scott Parker
Capoue
Emmanuel Adebayor
Jamaine Defoe
Arron Lennon
Onomah
Mousah Dembele
Naughton
Kyle Walker
Clint Dempsey
Winks
Kane
Who were these guys who were in their peak and primed? Kane was a itty bitty boy at 17 years old who no one had heard of and so was Winks.
Let me see if I get this - you are claiming Harry Kane was a 17 year old when Pochettino took over ?
I can't say that Mikhi was bad signing because in his only full season in club he was our main man in winning Europa league. I just can't ignore that.
He was not a hit but he wasn't a flop neither
I think he will go if we lose again, especially if it's a side we should beat or if it's a heavy defeat to a top side. I think Poch being available might make things move along quicker.
This doesn't mean that Ole will eventually turn out as good as them, them guys had managerial pedigree whilst Ole's managerial record wouldn't get him a coaching job in the Premiership let alone Manchester United manager without his legendary status earned through his playing career. Pochettino has proven that he can do well at everything Ole says he wants to do as in he has proved that he has a great playing style and he has faith in and the ability to improve young players.
Original post also questions if di Maria and Falcao were crap... So...
So Kane He just picked and coached himself into the player he is today? . There was no coaching involved to develop his game? We're going to disingenuously take credit away from the job Poch did to help improve their young players and make them mainstays in the first team?
Brandon Williams was floating around in the academy likewise Greenwood. If they turns out to be great consistent first team players in the future, I'm sure you'll be the first to assign credit and praise Ole for his work in coaching them and maintaining trust in them, which would be the right thing to do. You wouldn't try and twist it and say they were already in the academy when he arrived.
As for the squad he took over, you're rewriting history here.
Was this team superior to the United team Ole took over?
With that same team we finished 6th in Ole's first half season in charge. After Ole has put his stamp on the team through pre season and signings, now we're languishing mid table, having periods where we flirt with settling in the bottom of half the table. Top 4 out of the equation where many would be ecstatic if we finished 6th again.
And you say there is no way of knowing whether Poch would have been able to replicate or improve on that
Neither of those squads is superior to the other, not by much anyway. Rashford, Martial and Pogba would clearly improve that Spurs team, while Kane, Verthongen, Eriksen, Rose and Walker would clearly improve the other one. I would argue Huddlestone as well, but thats because i always thought he was underrated.
No matter how you spin it, Ole has outperformed Poch points wise since he was appointed. http://solskjaertabellen.com/. And if you check the table we are also above them this season. So even if we are langushing in midtable, Spurs are even worse off and hes been there 5 years now.
Managers in general tend to get way to much credit for "developing players". Good managers spot talent and give them chances and build their confidence, but ultimately its the players themselves who have to put in the hard labor. Are we going to credit Ole for "developing" Haaland as well?
And since you are so certain Poch would do a better job i would like some evidence. If Poch is so great why is he getting sacked now then? Levy might be a lot of things, but stupid is not one of them
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Poch has also managed that team for 5 years. Eventually, without championship results managerial styles get out dated and exhausted in teams. Thats clearly whats happened to Tottenham this season, and it happens with even experienced top managers at other clubs (e.g why Pep/Bayern moved on, Allegri recently, etc.)
Poch is a manager whose still relatively young and made Tottenham a top 4 mainstay, he also plays a decent brand of football. The only thing he lacks is winning credentials, which OGS clearly doesnt have. His tactical nuance is clearly better and has been demonstrated over 5 years consistently, rather than a few game spells. You can't honestly think OGS is a better manager than Pochettino because of their results in the last year or so... Poch went to a UCL final in the middle of the year...
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OGS till the Summer and get Poch in after. Its usually good for managers that are burnt out to have some time off and realign their strategy. The only sign I'd keep OGS is if we get top 4 somehow with decent results, right now I'd be shocked if we have top 6.
In an ideal world I'd say keep Ole til the end of the season, give Poch some time off and then get him but I don't think that'll happen. I think the only way we'd get Poch in now would be if we had another stinking run of form under Ole, he was sacked, and the board were forced to go for Poch mid season which I really wouldn't be a fan of either.
Ultimately I think Ole is improving his results now and probably won't go on a run that bad again (thank feck) meaning there's no way we will get Poch so right now I'd say we probably just need to hope for the best under him and forget about the idea of him being sacked. I still think we will go absolutely nowhere under Ole but I really hope I'm wrong.
Ultimately I think Ole is improving his results now and probably won't go on a run that bad again (thank feck) meaning there's no way we will get Poch so right now I'd say we probably just need to hope for the best under him and forget about the idea of him being sacked. I still think we will go absolutely nowhere under Ole but I really hope I'm wrong.
Poch will surely be committed to a new Gig by Christmas. Strike now or dont strike at all
Dunno, he was at Spurs for five and a half years and will probably have his pick of clubs in the summer. Right now Bayern are probably the only big club he could go to. I wouldn't be surprised if he took a break.
This club is reactionary to everything. Would be like us to sack Ole a month after Pochettino has signed a contract elsewhere. This club is rudderless. Pochettino won't be our next manager.
Spurs becoming a top 4 mainstay was not only down to Poch dragging them up from the mud, our fall from grace and Liverpool and Chelsea being as unstable as ever is also relevant. And i know people love to shit on Ole for his trophies in the Norwegian league, but shitty trophies is still better than no trophies
Im sorry, but i am just not that impressed with what he has done there. Levy assembled a very decent squad of players for him, and 5 years and no trophies is not particularly impressive. If Poch had taken over a Spurs in full blown crisis and rebuilt them himself, it would be a different story. https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...rs-job-title-tranfers-real-madrid-gareth-bale
Good coach? Yes, Good manager? I dont know and certainly on the big stage he has zero credentials and is entirely unproven. Him making an objectively good Spurs squad into top 4 mainstays is very different from the current job at United.
Agree with your last paragraph. Poch needs to take a short sabatical as he clearly was under huge pressure under Spurs so throwing him right into a job with even more pressure would be insane. If there are no signs of improvement under Ole when we get to May then Poch should be given a chance, but swapping managers now would be a really bad idea
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