Would Ole have succeeded with a proper football structure?

The guy finished 2nd and 3rd - our only manager post SAF to have back to back top 4 finishes.

Now whether, he'd have won us the league with a DOF, is based on hypotheticals. But all I know is that if we're saying a DOF wouldn't have benefitted him, then I can't think of a rational argument for us to say that a DOF would have helped ETH or Mou or LVG.

Afterall, he had no tactics and completely relied on individual brilliance, in which case, a bit more of tactics, which we have under ETH now, should result in us winning all games - players are clearly good enough as they got us 2nd without any coaching, right?
 
city-puma said:
I am more convinced than before that Ole with McKenna and Carrick could be successful eventually if there was right structure.
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Certainly a great pairing behind him too that we didn't really appreciate at the time.

I believe Kieran McKenna will be a great manager
 
Ole wouldn't have got the permanent gig if we have had a proper football structure. It was utterly mindless to give him a contract in the middle of a purple patch. The least we could have done is waited till the end of the season and asses the situation. It was not like Ole was coveted by other top clubs. However, that would have been to sensible for the management of this club. This was another Woodie special.
 
Ole his football was to have defenders play near their own goalkeeper, put two midfielders in front of that and have fast players at the front to blast the ball towards. Then there was that time Ole talked about tactics as if tactics are some nonense and football is just about 'who wants it more'.

So no, i dont think he would have succeeded long time. He would have done better if a director of football gave him better defensive midfielders than Fred and McT or a better forward than Dan James. However i dont think that brand of football will win the Premier League. More chance to win the CL than the Premier League with that brand of football.

Ole succeeded as a caretaker manager. He did that job excellent but he should not have been appointed as full time manager based on his results as a caretaker manager and a fluke against PSG.
 
Sarni said:
I really don't get this. It's yet another similar comment I read on here.

Ole finishing 2nd on 74 points, getting to Europa League final and losing on penalties, while finishing with 73 goals scored and +29 GD is considered an utter failure and embarrassment.

ETH finishing 3rd on 75 points and winning League Cup (after beating a bunch of mediocre teams + Newcastle), while scoring only 58 goals and having +15 GD, with virtually the same team + 200 million worth of signings is considered a huge miracle that very few managers are capable of.

What am I missing?
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Being at the club 2 and a half seasons and the best he could do was a 73 point finish and a EL Final; nah not really anything amazing.

Being at a club 12 months and getting 75 points and winning a cup; yeah decent first season.

Ultimately both will likely be failures.
 
Ole wasn't good enough, irrespective of the structure he had around him. He would be sacked at a club like City or Bayern not long into his hypothetical tenure.

Would he have done better? Probably. But it wouldn't have been to the standard we would have ultimately wanted, and a club with a good structure wouldn't give him the job permanently anyway.
 
Fortitude said:
Why can’t people let go of our post-Fergie ex-managers?
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Some think this is solely about those post-fergie ex managers, but the others focus on the missteps of the owners. Manager after manager, we always find ourselves in dire situation two or three seasons, periodically.
A lot of people here truly believe Ole is elementary school PE teacher, even though it’s so ridiculous not matter how you think about it. That’s the real reason people here will always argue about those managers.
 
Ah, more romanticism that some just can't let go.

If the club had established a more modern structure like say Bayern or City, a guy like Ole would never have been on the radar for United as whoever had been hired post-Ferguson (or post-Moyes) would not have been floundering most likely. The club would have a set ethos and philosophy and hired the proper manager to coach the squad with the talents the scouting department signed through the DOF who held all personnel power; this means no LVG - past his expiration date - and probably no Mourinho - his style would go against the philosophy although he can produce on the short term (I like him but an honest admission).

But let's say said manager was axed, having a set ethos would have seen another proper manager signed versus panic-hiring a former player then handing him a contract off the back of handful of fluke wins. The club ethos would not be Mates FC/Moments FC. They may have well have axed a manager mid-season and asked Ole to interim, but a proper DOF structure likely would not have seen Ole as the long-term solution.
 
Revaulx said:
Yes yes yes! People are so addicted to worshipping/hating individuals these days that they fail to see this.
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The fact of the matter is we are where we are due to the sheer neglect/incompetence of the owners. Woodward obviously played a starring role in that, but this is squarely on the Glazers. They’ve hollowed the club and haven’t cared for it. As long as the dividends came in and the valuation steadily went up, they’ve been happy to leave the club to fester under a banker with no experience, whose objective was short-term profiteering and bottoming out commercial possibilities.

How can anyone expect a manager to succeed in that structure? It’s not about needing some slick, state of the art footballing structure for a manager to operate in, it’s simply having someone in power who actually gives a shit about the club. We haven’t had that for a long time.
 
Yes. It should be evident by now how good Ole did under the circumstances. But reading the comments on here about ETH from last year to now, I’m not sure people want to see the whole picture.
 
Robbie Boy said:
Being at the club 2 and a half seasons and the best he could do was a 73 point finish and a EL Final; nah not really anything amazing.

Being at a club 12 months and getting 75 points and winning a cup; yeah decent first season.

Ultimately both will likely be failures.
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I did point out that a) 74 points was a bit misleading because we were preparing for EL final and dropped 10 points in the last 6 games, b) our League Cup win last season was very much down to an exceptionally easy draw.

Ole also finished 3rd in his first full season too. To be fair if he was able to keep that up he’d probably still be here.

I don’t actually think Ole’s seasons were that amazing, it just doesn’t sit right to me to call one’s time here as embarrassing failure and the other’s as overwhelming success.
 
Sarni said:
I did point out that a) 74 points was a bit misleading because we were preparing for EL final and dropped 10 points in the last 6 games, b) our League Cup win last season was very much down to an exceptionally easy draw.

Ole also finished 3rd in his first full season too. To be fair if he was able to keep that up he’d probably still be here.

I don’t actually think Ole’s seasons were that amazing, it just doesn’t sit right to me to call one’s time here as embarrassing failure and the other’s as overwhelming success.
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If ETH gets the bullet now; he's also a failure. If he stays and somehow turns this around, then we'll see.

Our standards as fans really are on the fecking floor. All of our post-Fergie managers have been failures.
 
MrMarcello said:
Ah, more romanticism that some just can't let go.

If the club had established a more modern structure like say Bayern or City, a guy like Ole would never have been on the radar for United as whoever had been hired post-Ferguson (or post-Moyes) would not have been floundering most likely. The club would have a set ethos and philosophy and hired the proper manager to coach the squad with the talents the scouting department signed through the DOF who held all personnel power; this means no LVG - past his expiration date - and probably no Mourinho - his style would go against the philosophy although he can produce on the short term (I like him but an honest admission).

But let's say said manager was axed, having a set ethos would have seen another proper manager signed versus panic-hiring a former player then handing him a contract off the back of handful of fluke wins. The club ethos would not be Mates FC/Moments FC. They may have well have axed a manager mid-season and asked Ole to interim, but a proper DOF structure likely would not have seen Ole as the long-term solution.
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Not disagree about structure part in most. But you don’t indicate why Ole is bad to convince people why the club shouldn’t appoint him. You just simply say no other big clubs would do the similar, but the facts are almost all of those clubs appointed ex-players many times, either experienced or newbie in management, including Bayern, city, Barcelona, Real Madrid, juventus, inter milan, ac Milan, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, etc. of course, some work out and the other didn’t.
 
Sarni said:
I did point out that a) 74 points was a bit misleading because we were preparing for EL final and dropped 10 points in the last 6 games, b) our League Cup win last season was very much down to an exceptionally easy draw.

Ole also finished 3rd in his first full season too. To be fair if he was able to keep that up he’d probably still be here.

I don’t actually think Ole’s seasons were that amazing, it just doesn’t sit right to me to call one’s time here as embarrassing failure and the other’s as overwhelming success.
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That season is the only one post-Fergie many feel we have a real chance to launch title challenge. But it’s so short and we all came back to reality during February’s brutal run.
 
I don't think Ole would have been able to lead the club. Even with the right structure, He would have got on with many players but He definitely had his favourites and I don't think he would be the type to drop players for a given reason. He briefly touched on Sancho in an interview I think he was and probably still is afraid to speak his mind openly on why it went wrong for him.
 
Zen86 said:
The fact of the matter is we are where we are due to the sheer neglect/incompetence of the owners. Woodward obviously played a starring role in that, but this is squarely on the Glazers. They’ve hollowed the club and haven’t cared for it. As long as the dividends came in and the valuation steadily went up, they’ve been happy to leave the club to fester under a banker with no experience, whose objective was short-term profiteering and bottoming out commercial possibilities.

How can anyone expect a manager to succeed in that structure? It’s not about needing some slick, state of the art footballing structure for a manager to operate in, it’s simply having someone in power who actually gives a shit about the club. We haven’t had that for a long time.
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Absolutely!

Lots of people can’t see that though. Plenty have realised that hoping for a managerial messiah isn’t doing any good so they’re now pinning their hopes on a messianic Director of Football.

Just having competent recruitment people who can be on the same page as the manager and understand what’s needed would be a massive step in the right direction. But someone at the top (the owners) needs to regard that as important.

Despite Arnold’s obvious recognition that the Woodward Way was no good, he’s not been able to instigate real change. That’s either because he’s a twat or because he’s constrained by those above him. I reckon the latter is more likely.
 
NewUser777 said:
Yes. It should be evident by now how good Ole did under the circumstances. But reading the comments on here about ETH from last year to now, I’m not sure people want to see the whole picture.
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We’ve had 5 managers post SAF and Ole is literally the only one to have completed a full season as manager and ended up trophyless.

3 post SAF managers ended up with Silverware.

He did shite and took us off a cliff in his final season. People are lamenting ETH now, despite him winning silverware in his first season and gaining 74 points (more than Ole ever managed) after inheriting an absolute shitshow, yet we’re in an infinitely better position now than we were in late November 2021.
Now at this point Ole in his third season, where you’d be expecting him to finally be coming into his own, had 17 points and had already seen Watford & Leicester smash 4 past us and 5 by Liverpool. He lost 4 of his final 5 games.

Now I get people are pissed with ETH and I agree he’s in deep water now due to performances, especially in the CL, but feck me he’s pissing on Ole’s tenure, and he may well be another ultimate failure.
 
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Regulus Arcturus Black said:
He did shite and took us off a cliff in his final season. ... we’re in an infinitely better position now than we were in late November 2021.
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Am I the only one who thinks that had less to do with Ole and was largely PRonaldo's arrival? We were still shite with Rangnick, started shite with ETH and only went into a good run of form after the World Cup.

Essentially, we were alright in 20/21 and at our best played better football than we have since (personal opinion, we all have one). We needed a midfield, clearly, so we went and signed a player we didn't need out of nowhere and turned into a complete shitshow under three managers until he left.

Personally, while I agree Ole wasn't going to win us the league, I think basing his appraisal so heavily on those five games is somewhat unfair. He lost control of the dressing room and as manager he has to shoulder much of the blame, but frankly we should have never signed PRonaldo to begin with. I wouldn't have, so sure as feck a proper structure wouldn't.
 
High 80s or low 90s points finishes would've been possible with Ole if we were a well-run football club. I would've fancied us vs a lot of European teams in the CL too. Occasional domestic cup win too
 
Ole was the best caretaker we had, but he should've never gone beyond that. The fact that he's still unemployed so long after, is very telling.

He can still become a great manager as he's got the tools for it, but he needs loads of experience before he's there.
 
Sir Erik ten Hag said:
Everyone goes on about how the weak structure of our football club hampers the manager. A proper DOF and structure may have prevented the Ronaldo signing and gotten new midfielders for Ole instead.

In that case his tenure may have turned out differently?
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Problem was that players didn’t care at that time. They played only for money and boosting their own egos. Just like it was with Mourinho and Rangnick. No structure of the club can help some players mentality. Solskjaer was a good manager.
 
Ole was simply not good enough. He failed at EPL level at both United and Cardiff and he's struggling to find a decent club to employ him.
 
Lentwood said:
No, because even when we finished 2nd and reached two cup finals, many of you complained that wasn't good enough.

The minute we achieve stability and a modicum of relative success, fans and the media pile the pressure on, the club make reckless/ill-thought out decisions and we blow-up.
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You are right that an overrated 2nd place finish miles off the champion and a trophy-less stint was not good enough.

A well structured and well run club would not have bowed down to popular demand and hired Ole as a permanent manager in the first place anyway.
 
Rojofiam said:
Casual ;)
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The man can’t even find a club to employ him, he failed at Cardiff, getting relegated & then sacked in the Championship. He won nothing at United (3 post SAF managers have won stuff), where his best achievement is finishing on a 3rd best points total of managers post Fergie.

But yeah, he’d have posted points totals that only 3 teams have managed in the past decade if we just had a well run club. In which case, following that logic, Mourinho would have got over 100 points? :lol:

As the poster above said, a well run club wouldn’t ever have brought in Ole as manager to start with.
 
We don't have a proper structure that's why Ole got a permanent contract in the first place.
 
Sir Erik ten Hag said:
Everyone goes on about how the weak structure of our football club hampers the manager. A proper DOF and structure may have prevented the Ronaldo signing and gotten new midfielders for Ole instead.

In that case his tenure may have turned out differently?
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If something had happened differently, would something different have happened?

Yes
 
antohan said:
Am I the only one who thinks that had less to do with Ole and was largely PRonaldo's arrival? We were still shite with Rangnick, started shite with ETH and only went into a good run of form after the World Cup.

Essentially, we were alright in 20/21 and at our best played better football than we have since (personal opinion, we all have one). We needed a midfield, clearly, so we went and signed a player we didn't need out of nowhere and turned into a complete shitshow under three managers until he left.

Personally, while I agree Ole wasn't going to win us the league, I think basing his appraisal so heavily on those five games is somewhat unfair. He lost control of the dressing room and as manager he has to shoulder much of the blame, but frankly we should have never signed PRonaldo to begin with. I wouldn't have, so sure as feck a proper structure wouldn't.
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Like Ten Hag has, he messed up the transfer window (it was obvious at the time) otherwise he'd probably still be here.

A well run club wouldn't have made such a mess of that window.
 
cyril C said:
Ole did OK 1st season but failed completely in 2nd (1st few months). Do you think a new structure would have prevented his failure?

Even ETH cannot blame the structure, because he did operate under a DOF structure under his rein, and the Club did invest considerable sum per his request.
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Er, sorry, but that's too simple. I don't think we had the squad for anything much more than we got in that early part of his second season. After Bruno arrived, we didn't lose another game for the rest of the season.

As for the OP question though, I think probably nevilles-wear-prada nails that in the very first reply.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
The man can’t even find a club to employ him, he failed at Cardiff, getting relegated & then sacked in the Championship. He won nothing at United (3 post SAF managers have won stuff), where his best achievement is finishing on a 3rd best points total of managers post Fergie.

But yeah, he’d have posted points totals that only 3 teams have managed in the past decade if we just had a well run club. In which case, following that logic, Mourinho would have got over 100 points? :lol:

As the poster above said, a well run club wouldn’t ever have brought in Ole as manager to start with.
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Imagine thinking Mourinho was better at United than Ole...some people really just watch football but don't see what they're watching
 
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This talk about Ole being inept tactically is rubbish. His tactics for some of the big games were spot on. In one season he beat City in all competitions. We had a very good team and we scored a ton of goals. He was the first manager post Sir Alex to score 5 goals in a game and did that a number of times. The players loved him. Yes he wasn't able to win a trophy but I do believe with the right structure behind him, he would have challenged and maybe won us a trophy.
 
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