Would Ole have succeeded with a proper football structure?

sglowrider said:
Didnt we have Jose and LVG prior to Ole and ETH after?

Unless you mean the hipster's choices of best coaches and tacticians? How here actually are good enough to gauge who the best managers or tacticians are? We have had some pretty big name ones like Jose and LVG. Failed.
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Both LVG and Mourinho had already been showing serious signs of being past their best. We just hoped that it was the situations they'd been in more than their own failures and that they'd turn it around with us and get back to their previous best. Unfortunately in both cases it turned out that it was the fault of the manager no longer being at the top level. It was basically the managerial equivalent of us signing Schweinsteiger, Matic, Sanchez, Cavani, Ronaldo, etc (and increasingly likely Casemiro and Varane).

Ten Hag is the first time we signed the right profile of manager, but no club will ever have a 100% success rate. And there is still a chance he can turn it around. If not, it's still a similar type of profile that we should be looking to replace him with.
 
Robbie Boy said:
As I said, it was fun at times but never looked remotely sustainable, and it wasn't.

ETH actually had us playing good football for a spell and then it fell to shit. Ole's football was generally quite poor despite a few good spells/results. Some want to romanticise his tenure now and pluck out some results which prove he played good football. In real-time, there was a reason why many were never convinced by him, and the football wasn't very good.
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What do us fans know? We were convinced by ETH up to a few months ago.
 
I don't think any of us have much of a clue as to what a proper footballing structure is, or how far we are away from having one, if at all.
 
He's an old school manager of the Mourinho mould. Depends if you think that lot can be successful in this era. Their whole thing was to build a quality team, keep the motivated and let them get on with it.

He actually could've had that quality team if we managed to pull off the Haaland, Bellingham signings. Losing those two to Dortmund set us back by 10 years atleast.

There's always a place for this style of management but I don't think he has it in him to match Pep / Klopp levels of sophistication.
 
sglowrider said:
What do us fans know? We were convinced by ETH up to a few months ago.
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Well we should judge in real-time, not get hung up on one particular manager working out. ETH done a good enough job, but now he isn't. Ole done well at times too until it went to shit.
 
MadDogg said:
Both LVG and Mourinho had already been showing serious signs of being past their best. We just hoped that it was the situations they'd been in more than their own failures and that they'd turn it around with us and get back to their previous best. Unfortunately in both cases it turned out that it was the fault of the manager no longer being at the top level. It was basically the managerial equivalent of us signing Schweinsteiger, Matic, Sanchez, Cavani, Ronaldo, etc (and increasingly likely Casemiro and Varane).

Ten Hag is the first time we signed the right profile of manager, but no club will ever have a 100% success rate. And there is still a chance he can turn it around. If not, it's still a similar type of profile that we should be looking to replace him with.
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I think so much of it is luck unless you are getting a sure thing like Pep and really there are very few of them around. I would have put Carlo into that group but he failed badly at Everton. Would Zidane despite the silverware haul at RM do well at United? Has the CV.

Who even heard of Ange and yet he has got Spurs playing pretty well -- arguably even better than ETH ever had in his first season. Its a crap shoot.
 
A LOT of vitrol for the manager that came 3rd and 2nd with a squad Ten Hag has supposedly strengthened after the last project failed in its third year
 
Robbie Boy said:
Well we should judge in real-time, not get hung up on one particular manager working out. ETH done a good enough job, but now he isn't. Ole done well at times too until it went to shit.
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But whats the difference between real-time and hipster's choice?
 
sglowrider said:
But whats the difference between real-time and hipster's choice?
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When it was clear Ole wasn't going to work, his supporters screamed 2nd place and cup final at you. Same with ETH supporters screaming 3rd place and cup win.

That's not really judging the here and now. For me, even though Ole and Jose got us second place finishes, the red flags in real-time were glaring. Likewise with how last season ended for ETH; though tbf fatigue seemed a plausible rationale
 
amolbhatia50k said:
He won nothing for 3 and half years. That puts him below the others. Shocking stuff really.
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We can make all kinds of points against our managers like why is ten Hag struggling after spending £400m, why couldn't Mourinho get Pogba to play in system that suits him, why couldn't van Gaal get the team to score more goals etc...
 
Tom Cato said:
A LOT of vitrol for the manager that came 3rd and 2nd with a squad Ten Hag has supposedly strengthened after the last project failed in its third year
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And he had us scoring truckload more goals. We knew we still had a chance even if we went behind.

This feckin' ETH regime that produces so few goals is just heartbreaking. This isn't the United Way. I would take Ole's approach (other than the last few months) than any of this rubbish we have been fed the last 5 months.

A -5 goal diff after 10 games is shocking. And we have Liverpool coming up.
 
I am more convinced than before that Ole with McKenna and Carrick could be successful eventually if there was right structure.
 
Robbie Boy said:
When it was clear Ole wasn't going to work, his supporters screamed 2nd place and cup final at you. Same with ETH supporters screaming 3rd place and cup win.

That's not really judging the here and now. For me, even though Ole and Jose got us second place finishes, the red flags in real-time were glaring. Likewise with how last season ended for ETH; though tbf fatigue seemed a plausible rationale
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I agree. I am not saying that Ole is the long-term solution. But the vitriol towards him is just disproportionate and underserving. Everyone uses his last few months as an example of his crapness. Thats just a lazy comparison. You can use that on any manager prior to being sacked.

Christ everyone thought ETH was the dog's bollocks 12 months ago despite being humiliated by the Scousers. Yet we defended him. I wanted him to work but I think he has lost his way in recent months. Doesnt seem to have a plan B.

At the moment, we are so desperate as a fan base, we are being so reactionary and jumping from one perceived silver bullet to another.

Its sad.
 
cyril C said:
Ole did OK 1st season but failed completely in 2nd (1st few months). Do you think a new structure would have prevented his failure?

Even ETH cannot blame the structure, because he did operate under a DOF structure under his rein, and the Club did invest considerable sum per his request.
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I really don't get this. It's yet another similar comment I read on here.

Ole finishing 2nd on 74 points, getting to Europa League final and losing on penalties, while finishing with 73 goals scored and +29 GD is considered an utter failure and embarrassment.

ETH finishing 3rd on 75 points and winning League Cup (after beating a bunch of mediocre teams + Newcastle), while scoring only 58 goals and having +15 GD, with virtually the same team + 200 million worth of signings is considered a huge miracle that very few managers are capable of.

What am I missing?
 
city-puma said:
I am more convinced than before that Ole with McKenna and Carrick could be successful eventually if there was right structure.
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Maybe we pulled the trigger too early on them. I am convinced that we were un an upward trajectory until the Billy Big Balls rolled back into town and fecked up the way we were trying to play before. Plus they had to work under Woodward.
 
Tom Cato said:
A LOT of vitrol for the manager that came 3rd and 2nd with a squad Ten Hag has supposedly strengthened after the last project failed in its third year
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Agreed, there's a lot of cope going on in this thread.
 
sglowrider said:
I agree. I am not saying that Ole is the long-term solution. But the vitriol towards him is just disproportionate and underserving. Everyone uses his last few months as an example of his crapness. Thats just a lazy comparison. You can use that on any manager prior to being sacked.

Christ everyone thought ETH was the dog's bollocks 12 months ago despite being humiliated by the Scousers. Yet we defended him. I wanted him to work but I think he has lost his way in recent months. Doesnt seem to have a plan B.

At the moment, we are so desperate as a fan base, we are being so reactionary and jumping from one perceived silver bullet to another.

Its sad.
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The vitriol needs to be separated from people not really rating him, though.

I can understand some felt he done a good job, and I can also understand why some feel he didn't. For me, it was all fairly meh, and that's just being honest. Unfortunately with both Ole and Jose; people became entrenched in a keep or sack camp, and this led to the majority of the vitriol.

For me, all post-Fergie appointments have been terrible to different degrees, and ETH certainly looks like joining that illustrious group.

I feel we need to stop treating managers as deities and treat them as employees of the club. I would happily implement a world class structure and cycle through managers regularly when we start failing.
 
Tom Cato said:
A LOT of vitrol for the manager that came 3rd and 2nd with a squad Ten Hag has supposedly strengthened after the last project failed in its third year
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They were adamant that the manager(s) after him would do far better. He's just embarrassed those posters that we're so sure.

And that's because ultimately it's down to quality of players in the end. Ole messed up recruitment and paid for it. Ten Hag is looking like going the same way.
 
Robbie Boy said:
For me, all post-Fergie appointments have been terrible to different degrees, and ETH certainly looks like joining that illustrious group.

I feel we need to stop treating managers as deities and treat them as employees of the club. I would happily implement a world class structure and cycle through managers regularly when we start failing.
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A Roman Chelsea structure?
 
sglowrider said:
A Roman Chelsea structure?
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Well that was one man sacking managers at will, though they were highly successful still.

I would rather implement a structure like City, Brighton etc: Identify a clear plan and philosophy and only sign players/appoint managers that fit the model. That way, we might get it right much quicker. But yeah, sticking with managers until we hit absolute rock bottom is ludicrous, as is appointing a broad array of random managers.
 
Leftback99 said:
They were adamant that the manager(s) after him would do far better. He's just embarrassed those posters that we're so sure.

And that's because ultimately it's down to quality of players in the end. Ole messed up recruitment and paid for it. Ten Hag is looking like going the same way.
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Everyone thought the next manager would do so much better than the last, post-Fergie. This isn't exclusive to Ole.

Here we are a decade and a billion quid later with 2 League Cups, 1 FA Cup and a EL.
 
Robbie Boy said:
Well that was one man sacking managers at will, though they were highly successful still.

I would rather implement a structure like City, Brighton etc: Identify a clear plan and philosophy and only sign players/appoint managers that fit the model. That way, we might get it right much quicker. But yeah, sticking with managers until we hit absolute rock bottom is ludicrous, as is appointing a broad array of random managers.
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City I can see it since the build-up was meticulous. But can we do all that with the debt that restricts us from buying 40 million defenders or players in general who would just sit on the bench? With raising interest rates, our debt will become a huge factor in our approach going forward.

Brighton reminds me of Southampton from a while back. A selling club that eventually caught up on them. They had to get things perfectly right or they would struggle.
 
sglowrider said:
Maybe we pulled the trigger too early on them. I am convinced that we were un an upward trajectory until the Billy Big Balls rolled back into town and fecked up the way we were trying to play before. Plus they had to work under Woodward.
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I was extremely disappointed at the time Ole was let go. I don’t understand why they didn’t let him finish the season and get him replaced.
With the right structure, Ronaldo would be a no go transfer no matter how Ole and the club executives liked the idea to get him in.
 
sglowrider said:
City I can see it since the build-up was meticulous. But can we do all that with the debt that restricts us from buying 40 million defenders or players in general who would just sit on the bench? With raising interest rates, our debt will become a huge factor in our approach going forward.

Brighton reminds me of Southampton from a while back. A selling club that eventually caught up on them. They had to get things perfectly right or they would struggle.
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Well, we have to try something new, because our current 'model' has cost us a billion quid in transfer fees on utter shite and multiple failed managers.
 
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horsechoker said:
We can make all kinds of points against our managers like why is ten Hag struggling after spending £400m, why couldn't Mourinho get Pogba to play in system that suits him, why couldn't van Gaal get the team to score more goals etc...
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You can but you’d still realise that they actually won stuff which is the entire point of hiring and paying managers. The odd one out - Ole and his trophies are for ego mantra.
 
city-puma said:
I was extremely disappointed at the time Ole was let go. I don’t understand why they didn’t let him finish the season and get him replaced.
With the right structure, Ronaldo would be a no go transfer no matter how Ole and the club executives liked the idea to get him in.
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Ole was having an absolute nightmare and had completely lost the dressing room. As much as a I love the guy, he absolutely needed to go when he did. People go on and on about how bad Rangnick was but in reality he actually did better than Ole that season.

LVG is the only manager we've had this last decade that could have any argument that he should have been kept on longer (not that I think he should have been, but he's the only one where everything hadn't turned toxic). Moyes, Mourinho and Ole had completely lost control and needed to go.
 
city-puma said:
I was extremely disappointed at the time Ole was let go. I don’t understand why they didn’t let him finish the season and get him replaced.
With the right structure, Ronaldo would be a no go transfer no matter how Ole and the club executives liked the idea to get him in.
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Agree.
 
Robbie Boy said:
Well, we have to try something new, because our current 'model' has cost us a billion quid in transfer fees on utter shite and multiple failed managers.
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For sure. The problem is whats a proper structure? What is it we need that we don't have now?

Will Ratcliffe's team bring their French experiences into the PL? Will that be any different from the heavy Eredivisie influence of ETH but from a management structure approach? Or are club management structures applicable to all leagues?
 
Robbie Boy said:
Everyone thought the next manager would do so much better than the last, post-Fergie. This isn't exclusive to Ole.

Here we are a decade and a billion quid later with 2 League Cups, 1 FA Cup and a EL.
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I said the same with Mourinho, that the next guy wouldn't do better with the same players. Same again now.

We need to get away from thinking a manager will be our savour unless he's also a recruitment expert.
 
No, he made mistake after mistake as manager. For example, upper management had nothing to do with him fecking up the Europa League final.
 
Leftback99 said:
I said the same with Mourinho, that the next guy wouldn't do better with the same players. Same again now.

We need to get away from thinking a manager will be our savour unless he's also a recruitment expert.
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We need to get rid of the notion of a manager being a saviour full stop.
 
sglowrider said:
For sure. The problem is whats a proper structure? What is it we need that we don't have now?

Will Ratcliffe's team bring their French experiences into the PL? Will that be any different from the heavy Eredivisie influence of ETH but from a management structure approach? Or are club management structures applicable to all leagues?
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Well I'm no expert on this so that's not for me to decide. I know that setting up an actual structure drawing on how other successful clubs operate, would be a start. Then we could actually employ qualified people into these roles.
 
Sarni said:
I really don't get this. It's yet another similar comment I read on here.

Ole finishing 2nd on 74 points, getting to Europa League final and losing on penalties, while finishing with 73 goals scored and +29 GD is considered an utter failure and embarrassment.

ETH finishing 3rd on 75 points and winning League Cup (after beating a bunch of mediocre teams + Newcastle), while scoring only 58 goals and having +15 GD, with virtually the same team + 200 million worth of signings is considered a huge miracle that very few managers are capable of.

What am I missing?
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Probably short memories or signs of standards going down the drain. I remember that even Jose's 2nd place finish with +40 GD was seen as a failure because we didn't challenge for the title. Suddenly finishing 3rd and winning League Cup is some sort of a miracle. Remember when we used to call it the Mickey Mouse cup?
 
No, because even when we finished 2nd and reached two cup finals, many of you complained that wasn't good enough.

The minute we achieve stability and a modicum of relative success, fans and the media pile the pressure on, the club make reckless/ill-thought out decisions and we blow-up.
 
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