World Cup Peak Draft - Pol vs Crappy

Who is more likely to win based on players solely in their World Cup peak?

  • Total voters
    22
  • Poll closed .
crappycraperson said:
:lol: No mate. It is fine, I don't take these things any where near as seriously as some on here. I don't mean that as a jibe but just how it is. Ii actually understand why would you be a touch desperate to win against this team now. And yeah been a very good discussion.
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you are a good sport Crappy, its been a pleasure to have you in this discussion :)
 
It's crappys team all right. The Players Theons choice and tactics crappys! My contribution is zilch!

Being termed assistant or not, I did vote for this team last round and still fancy it now. No offence Pol, but the choice has nothing to with the assistance.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
It's crappys team all right. The Players Theons choice and tactics crappys! My contribution is zilch!

Being termed assistant or not, I did vote for this team last round and still fancy it now. No offence Pol, but the choice has nothing to with the assistance.
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I don't think you should vote. You can be my official assistant and we can just leave it at that
 
Polaroid said:
So you reckon Carlos will occupy BOTH Zito and Maldini while leaving Kohler out on the flank alone will keep Garrincha quiet? :lol:
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This isn’t really a response to this post but just generally the points about Roberto Carlos because it gets brought up in every draft we do on the Caf

In this situation Roberto Carlos will definitely get forward and IMO 1) it makes complete sense given the huge amount of space up there, and 2) it is not the huge defensive issue that you make it out to be - particularly due to Crappy's instructions with Kohler

For number 1 – the way I see it Pol you don't have a right back and Garrincha is the last person on the pitch to track runs from defence, so who will track Carlos when he shoots off? There is just a huge void right up the pitch to attack and no body is well placed to stop it.

This is bread and butter for Roberto Carlos - He became the most valuable left back in the world doing exactly this.

For number 2 – Crappy's defensive idea with Kohler is that when Carlos does bomb forward leaving Garrincha up top (because he won’t track him) then Kohler moves over to man mark Garrincha.

The first thing to remember is that wingbacks get up and down the pitch all the time and 90% of runs result in no problems, they get back in position after tracking back and the game carries on. Attacking fullbacks wouldn't be such a common tactic if it was so vulnerable.

But obviously there is some risk (the 5-10%) – but that is where Kohler comes in. Playing a back five means that Garrincha isn’t stood on his own out there, he has the most ruthless man marker since Gentile on his case and any long balls to him will be snuffed out – Garrincha isn’t winning any long balls against Kohler.

Meanwhile Carlos is running back up the pitch and getting back into position which won't take more than 10 seconds.
 
Pol will do well to win this being up against 3 or 4 managers!
 
Fergus' son said:
Pol will do well to win this being up against 3 or 4 managers!
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:confused: Who are they then?

Edgar isn't involved at all and has made one post but still isn't going to vote. I've made two. Crappy and Pol have made 46.

You have made more posts than me..
 
Theon said:
The first thing to remember is that wingbacks get up and down the pitch all the time and 90% of runs result in no problems, they get back in position after tracking back and the game carries on. Attacking fullbacks wouldn't be such a common tactic if it was so vulnerable.
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Yet we see the likes of Evra leaving the flank exposed time and again. At the other end Rafael gets loads of support from the likes of Valencia, but Carlos has no winger here who would be on alert as well.

Attacking fullbacks wouldn't be such a common tactic if they faced Garrincha every week.

I'd say 50% of he time Kohler is the one dealing with Garrincha, and say he only beats him 1out of 5 (generous) that's a very compromised position to be in 1/10 times he attacks down that flank. It will result in one goal at the very least, and we haven't got to Maradona yet...
 
antohan said:
Yet we see the likes of Evra leaving the flank exposed time and again. At the other end Rafael gets loads of support from the likes of Valencia, but Carlos has no winger here who would be on alert as well.

Attacking fullbacks wouldn't be such a common tactic if they faced Garrincha every week.

I'd say 50% of he time Kohler is the one dealing with Garrincha, and say he only beats him 1out of 5 (generous) that's a very compromised position to be in 1/10 times he attacks down that flank. It will result in one goal at the very least, and we haven't got to Maradona yet...
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Exactly what I was thinking when I saw that post.
 
antohan said:
Yet we see the likes of Evra leaving the flank exposed time and again. At the other end Rafael gets loads of support from the likes of Valencia, but Carlos has no winger here who would be on alert as well.

Attacking fullbacks wouldn't be such a common tactic if they faced Garrincha every week.

I'd say 50% of he time Kohler is the one dealing with Garrincha, and say he only beats him 1out of 5 (generous) that's a very compromised position to be in 1/10 times he attacks down that flank. It will result in one goal at the very least, and we haven't got to Maradona yet...
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Agreed on Evra recently but he has been in huge decline for a few years now - 07-09 Evra had no problems getting up and down and it wasn't a liability.

Brehme managed it in a 3-5-2 without wingers tracking back, as did Carlos himself at both Madrid and Brazil. Brazil obviously had the 3-5-2 but Madrid themselves had periods without wingers during the Galacticos era

For Milan Cafu and Maldini managed it in the diamond, without the security of an extra centre back as that formation just has a normal back four - so here there is even more security with Kohler moving over. Likewise with the Italian national team, they have played the same way and had no problems. When you play these formations - which lots of Continental teams do - the wingbacks need to get forward, it isn't a rare thing at all and wouldn't happen if it was a liability.

Completely disagree with Kohler dealing with him 50% of the time, Carlos doesn't stand up there. He gets up and gets down and will be back with Garrincha 9 times out of 10. The only time it would be Kohler one on one is where Carlos breaks forward, loses possession somehow, and Pol can transition quick enough to play the ball to Garrincha in the 10 seconds or so it takes Carlos to get back.
 
Crappy's attack is identical to the one in the last game. A key difference here though is Boniek relative to Czibor in supporting the midfield, and Krol relative to Junior.

Junior was no CB or LCB, that's why I had him moving forward to pick up Zico. When Andrade had to come out for Carlos Figueroa was stuck on Muller and it was all hugely dependent on Bozsik tracking Baggio effectively. It was indeed fine lines and I had little room for error.

That's why I wanted Krol there, it's a completely different cup of tea here: Maldini goes wide to pick Carlos, Moore tucks rightwards and takes Baggio, Krol likewise taking Muller and Breitner drops to Krol's position as the spare man, having been covered appropriately by Boniek.

It would be far trickier if both wingbacks were operational in attacking phases, but they aren't. Have no idea how a 5-man defence ever made sense without two proper wingbacks to rely upon. If there's nothing going on on the right you may as well stick to a four!
 
antohan said:
Maldini goes wide to pick Carlos, Moore tucks rightwards and takes Baggio, Krol likewise taking Muller and Breitner drops to Krol's position as the spare man
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How would he be the spare man - who has Zico? Or one of Falcão/Beckenbauer breaking forward?
 
Theon said:
Agreed on Evra recently but he has been in huge decline for a few years now - 07-09 Evra had no problems getting up and down and it wasn't a liability.

Brehme managed it in a 3-5-2 without wingers tracking back, as did Carlos himself at both Madrid and Brazil. Brazil obviously had the 3-5-2 but Madrid themselves had periods without wingers during the Galacticos era

For Milan Cafu and Maldini managed it in the diamond, without the security of an extra centre back as that formation just has a normal back four - so here there is even more security with Kohler moving over. Likewise with the Italian national team, they have played the same way and had no problems. When you play these formations - which lots of Continental teams do - the wingbacks need to get forward, it isn't a rare thing at all and wouldn't happen if it was a liability.

Completely disagree with Kohler dealing with him 50% of the time, Carlos doesn't stand up there. He gets up and gets down and will be back with Garrincha 9 times out of 10. The only time it would be Kohler one on one is where Carlos breaks forward, loses possession somehow, and Pol can transition quick enough to play the ball to Garrincha in the 10 seconds or so it takes Carlos to get back.
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The winger thing isn't crucial, obviously, but an attacking fullback being a credible stratagem against Garrincha isn't right. Yes, there have been successful 3-5-2s but 1. They usually threatened down both flanks, 2. They didn't face players like Mane, so it was rarely an issue if the WB didn't get back. The cover would be effective enough.

Look at Facchetti against Brazil in 1970, his entire attacking game went out of the window, Italy simply couldn't afford it. He had done the back and forth effectively for almost a decade, but in that game he knew, and his manager knew, it was completely manic to expect to get away with it.
 
Theon said:
How would he be the spare man - who has Zico? Or one of Falcão/Beckenbauer breaking forward?
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Zito has Zico. Boniek has whichever breaks forward.

Personally, I would expect Falcao to be the one breaking frward, if at all, no idea why crappy insists on Beckenbauer. I would sooner leave Beckenbauer behind keeping an eye on those two than Falcao, and Andrade can do a Junior covering him. There's more -much needed- variation in Falcao's attacking game as well.
 
antohan said:
The winger thing isn't crucial, obviously, but an attacking fullback being a credible stratagem against Garrincha isn't right. Yes, there have been successful 3-5-2s but 1. They usually threatened down both flanks, 2. They didn't face players like Mane, so it was rarely an issue if the WB didn't get back. The cover would be effective enough.

Look at Facchetti against Brazil in 1970, his entire attacking game went out of the window, Italy simply couldn't afford it. He had done the back and forth effectively for almost a decade, but in that game he knew, and his manager knew, it was completely manic to expect to get away with it.
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Except that's why Kohler is there. Pol have only one striker in there, that too against Figueroa and Scirea allows me the luxury of having Kohler man mark Mane when Carlos is bombing forward
 
antohan said:
Zito has Zico. Boniek has whichever breaks forward.

Personally, I would expect Falcao to be the one breaking frward, if at all, no idea why crappy insists on Beckenbauer. I would sooner leave Beckenbauer behind keeping an eye on those two than Falcao, and Andrade can do a Junior covering him. There's more -much needed- variation in Falcao's attacking game as well.
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Zico 82 would relish the challenge of beating just one man to work his magic for either Muller or Baggio
 
antohan said:
Look at Facchetti against Brazil in 1970, his entire attacking game went out of the window, Italy simply couldn't afford it. He had done the back and forth effectively for almost a decade, but in that game he knew, and his manager knew, it was completely manic to expect to get away with it.
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I actually watched that game quite recently - few months ago - and didn't even notice Facchetti which was strange when I thought back on it. But anyway.

Aye he might not have gotten forward but I think its just one counter example when there are lots that point the other way. That 1970's team is widely considered the best of all time and you really were going to be on the back foot there, not just Facchetti against the Jairzinho/Carlos Alberto right flank.. But just everyone all over the park! One team just was better than the other there, but that isn't the case here.

There is no chance of Beckenbauer/Falcão getting dominated for example and that does have an effect throughout the team i.e. there actually will be lots of opportunities for Carlos to get forward. If Beckenbauer takes possession in the middle it really is a clear, lovely attacking move just to spray a 30 yard pass into the space for Carlos to run onto.

On your main point though - I agree - of course Carlos won't take out Garrincha. You know I rate him very highly because we've argued this before, but its always been primarily his attacking game and I know he can't stop Garrincha on his own. Kohler is a huge help there though, its a tough task to get past Carlos plus a covering Kohler/Scirea even for Garrincha.

This is an excellent defence so deserves some credit IMO - obviously Pol has mouthwatering names in attack though.
 
in short, you have inverted Brazil 82's fullback setup. Carlos is an improvement on Leandro, Andrade is a defensive improvement on Junior, and Beckenbuer a vast one on Cerezo.

However, you have limited Zico's impact by doubling him up with Baggio, and added a sweeper at the expense of Socrates.

Overall, much sturdier defence, but not as expansive in attack. I'd much rather see the 82 side I posted earlier!
 
antohan said:
Zito has Zico. Boniek has whichever breaks forward.

Personally, I would expect Falcao to be the one breaking frward, if at all, no idea why crappy insists on Beckenbauer. I would sooner leave Beckenbauer behind keeping an eye on those two than Falcao, and Andrade can do a Junior covering him. There's more -much needed- variation in Falcao's attacking game as well.
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Fair enough on Zito, that is a lot of 1 vs 1's though and is by no means a great way to stop the attack. Zico will have lots of success against Zito for example, and I would fancy Muller 1 vs 1 against any CB in the world once we approach the penalty box - a burst of acceleration and quickly fired shot is all it takes.

Aye Falcão does have more fluidity - playing in that narrow 4-2-2-2 he actually ran the channels extremely well which you would never expect. Brwned posted this in the last game and you can see it here in parts,

 
Theon said:
Fair enough on Zito, that is a lot of 1 vs 1's though and is by no means a great way to stop the attack. Zico will have lots of success against Zito for example, and I would fancy Muller 1 vs 1 against any CB in the world once we approach the penalty box - a burst of acceleration and quickly fired shot is all it takes.
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Lots of 1v1s, as is usually the case when you look for "who is dealing with who". In practice they aren't man marking each other but keeping a shape, and you are overlooking Breitner as a "spare" in the 1v1 collection. He drops back to form a back four.
 
antohan said:
Attacking fullbacks wouldn't be such a common tactic if they faced Garrincha every week.
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Hehe - probably not.

I think this sort of sums up the fantasy match concept, though - or rather the fantasy match concept when you have access to so many historically great players. In the real world very few - if any - managers would try to attack, say, Pep's Barcelona or Brazil '70 to death. It's just not done. Against a side of such quality you're bound to be on the cautious side - and you won't have ultra offensive fullbacks running wild when a Messi or a Pelé looms. Beckenbauer had Matthäus man-mark Maradona in '86 - and the Kaiser himself man-marked Charlton in '66. That's reality. But if you're up against Maradona AND Garrincha AND Eusebio - well, conventional tactics aren't really on. I suppose you just have to try to kill the other bloke before he kills you - and in that kind of scenario you aren't going to be worried about Carlos not getting back in time. You have to gamble, basically.
 
crappycraperson said:
Twat Annah.. u want pens :rolleyes::p:D
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I've had the same post up now every time it isn't a draw because he wanted it to be a draw! Whenever it turns to a draw I remove the post. Previously you were behind and the quote was up I think.

For my own benefit in terms of reinforcements I want you to win.
 
crappycraperson said:
Surely you are not going to shoe horn Maradona in your side?
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I want them all.
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Congrats to Crappy mate for a well managed match! Pol showed a lot of balls lining up like he did and it was incredibly close.
 
Wow.. I can't believe I won :lol:. Wish Pol was here to at the end to drum up a support a bit more. I kinda feel bad for him losing this now. I am not sure what the protocol now is.
 
Pol was winning with 2 votes when he left I believe so it is possible that it interfered with it. Still not your fault in any way Crappy! How will you celebrate this? WC final.
 
@Annahnomoss Got sidetracked and didn't see your heads-up till now! But it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Congrats to crappy - and well played to both of you. It was a good match - several interesting points being debated. Now, lads - I want that final to end in a penalty shootout - or I demand my money back!
 
I thought I had won you over to my side with that free WC final ticket. Pff, worthless spent money that was.
 
Bah - you didn't even get me one of them VIP seats: I'm a prawn sandwich kind of fan, you know.
 
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