World Cup Peak Draft - Pol vs Crappy

[Annahnomoss]

Some great points has been brought up by both sides. I'll remain neutral as I am the opposition in the next game.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

What is perhaps a bit odd when it comes to keepers is that you seemingly won't profit at all from sporting a truly a great one compared to a merely (in this context) functional one. Everyone will instantly recognize that having Moore, Figueroa, Baresi or Beckenbauer is significantly better than having, say, the likes of Aldair or José Luis Brown (both of whom were more than capable defenders and WC winners to boot) in your defense.

Pick a team of the tournament keeper and you're immune to unfavourable comparisons - which means that unless there are more than...let's see...nineteen managers in the draft, it's impossible to get it wrong (in a WC draft, that is).

It's not a major point, though - and it's natural that the focus will be elsewhere with the wealth of talent in these matches. Just an observation - it struck me from the very beginning how little was made of who was in goal. For all practical purposes keepers could've been left out of the draft altogether: "Generic WC keeper who isn't a complete liability" will feature in goal for all teams.

 

[Balu]

I'm not sure if I'm online later today, so I'll vote now. I don't really like Pol's attack in the sense of getting the best out of any of those all time greats with the exception of Boniek, but Anto has a point that his attacking options are so incredibly versatile that it's almost impossible to defend against. I can't say what the best way to goal is for Pol's team, but there's not a single way that is completely shut down.

Carlos' needs to be careful with his runs, Garrincha running in behind him is a nightmare. I can see Carlos doing a good job defensively on Garrincha in this setup actually, covering his runs with Kohler helping out, when Garrincha has the ball, but I'm not sure if he can balance it with his attacking contribution and Carlos providing width is crucial to score.

I'd say Garrincha will cause as much trouble as Carlos could against that 3 man defense. And if I compare the rest of the team, I can see Pol scoring more. It's still close, I still rate the Falcao, Beckenbauer midfield highly and can see them getting the ball forward to Zico, Baggio, not necessarily on the counter but in possession with Müller being effective in the box. I give Maradona to Boniek or Eusebio a slightly better chance and I also wouldn't underestimate a surprising Breitner to Garrincha pass for a goal, when Crappy manages to shutdown the other wing and forces the ball back to Breitner.

Sorry, Crappy/Theon, one more vote for Pol/Aldo.

 

[crappycraperson]

What is perhaps a bit odd when it comes to keepers is that you seemingly won't profit at all from sporting a truly a great one compared to a merely (in this context) functional one. Everyone will instantly recognize that having Moore, Figueroa, Baresi or Beckenbauer is significantly better than having, say, the likes of Aldair or José Luis Brown (both of whom were more than capable defenders and WC winners to boot) in your defense.

Pick a team of the tournament keeper and you're immune to unfavourable comparisons - which means that unless there are more than...let's see...nineteen managers in the draft, it's impossible to get it wrong (in a WC draft, that is).

It's not a major point, though - and it's natural that the focus will be elsewhere with the wealth of talent in these matches. Just an observation - it struck me from the very beginning how little was made of who was in goal. For all practical purposes keepers could've been left out of the draft altogether: "Generic WC keeper who isn't a complete liability" will feature in goal for all teams.

I agree with this, if keepers are going to add absolutely nothing then there is no point picking them what so ever

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think the difference between Yashin in his prime and David de Gea will matter a lot less than the difference of Maradona and Wayne Rooney.

 

[Balu]

It's not a major point, though - and it's natural that the focus will be elsewhere with the wealth of talent in these matches. Just an observation - it struck me from the very beginning how little was made of who was in goal. For all practical purposes keepers could've been left out of the draft altogether: "Generic WC keeper who isn't a complete liability" will feature in goal for all teams.

I gave Anto a lot of credit for his sweeper keeper and thought he was crucial to deny that long ball over the top counterattack option for a goal. I also was surprised that no one questioned Gilmar as a kind of sweeper keeper in my first game, though I didn't use him in a comparable extreme way as Anto did, because I knew that he wasn't one, but at least in my first game with the crazy high back line, it was a bit of a problem.

But it's difficult to question a worldcup winning goalkeeper with several great performances and say he's less likely to deny a goal in a one on one against Müller than Yashin is against Eusebio. I'm really clueless here, can you honestly say that there is a significant difference that will change the outcome of the game often enough here, so that it should influence the vote?

 

[Polaroid]

My central defense comprises of - Kohler, Scriea and Figueroa. I can't think of three better defenders to allow my wing backs to go forward even against that attack

And I have Maldini, Bobby Moore, Krol. Can't think of many better to do the job in this game.

So you reckon Carlos will occupy BOTH Zito and Maldini while leaving Kohler out on the flank alone will keep Garrincha quiet? not to forget Eusebio, Maradona, Zizinho and Boniek. Can't believe how underrated Zizinho is, he is a Golden Ball winner and arguably the best Brazilian player before Pele.

Yes Kohler will indeed cover for Carlos on any counters. And he is more than capable of doing so. Even if Mane does skip past occasional, he will have another two central players to contend with

And when your central defenders get drawn out desperately trying to stem a rampaging Garrincha, the likes of Eusebio, Maradona, Zizinho and Boniek will cut you open mercilessly.

 

[Polaroid]

Yeah, I just can't see Carlos dealing with Mane at all. I actually see that as a huge mismatch, and if he gets caught up front to leave Mane vs Kohler then it spells trouble for you IMO. As good as Kohler was, we are talking about a top one or two winger of all time here, he will get the better of him. If Scirea has to come across then it leaves too many holes for the likes of Eusebio, Boniek and Maradona to exploit. Your team just seems a bit more precarious to me whilst Pol, though also not perfect, just seems a little less susceptible.

It is close though..

Exactly, Crappy is dependent on Carlos and Andrade to provide limited width against a setup where he can least afford them to bomb forward with the likes of Garrincha and Boniek pushing high up behind them. Pull the centrebacks out to the flanks to cover and you leave the centre more vulnerable to Eusebio, Maradona, Zizinho and Breitner.

Crappy pushes up his defensive line and he will be exposed to the pace of Garrincha, Eusebio and Boniek. Play deep and he surrenders space for my midfield 4 of Maradona-Zizinho-Breitner-Zito to gain the upper hand over his midfield 3

Crappy is caught between a rock and a hard place

 

[crappycraperson]

Not really. I am obviously set up to soak up as much pressure as I can. Neither would I be over committing any players in search of goals. As already pointed out-

- both the wing backs won't be going forward at the same time.
- Beckenbauer will make his traditional forward runs to provide support to the attack and he is more than good enough to balance that with his defensive duties.
- Having someone like Figueroa in there also will allow me to launch quick counter attacks when you lose the ball in my area. If someone like Britener does commit forward and during the same phase I am able to launch a CA from the back, it will leave ample space for Zico, Baggio and a breaking Kaiser to use.

I have set up the team a for a hard fought 1-0 win against an attacking side. It may no be the most fancy approach but that is how tight football games are won.

 

[Polaroid]

- Both the full backs would hardly be venturing forward at the same time

So basically you are saying your width is pretty much handicapped
Perfect for my defensive setup to handle if anyone noticed

- Same with Kaiser. If a player knows when he can risk going forward, it is Beckenbauer.

Sure, take that risk with Maradona and Zizinho there with Falcao up to his nose
Like I said our team is happy to trade attacking punches with yours in an open attacking game, it plays right into our hands

- Both CBs would not be doubling up on your wingers at the same time. That makes zero sense.

I don't need both, with Carlos caught upfront, a lightning transition has Garrincha tearing into the heart of your defense. Kohler, who is far more suited to marking back-to-goal strikers, is exposed to Garrinhca running at/behind him at pace. Figueora scrambles across to cover while Scirea tries to keep track of Eusebio. Maradona, Boniek, Zizinho and Breitner go for the jugular with Andrade trying to keep up and your centre midfield two furiously backpedalling.

 

[Polaroid]

Not really. I am obviously set up to soak up as much pressure as I can. Neither would I be over committing any players in search of goals. As already pointed out-

- both the wing backs won't be going forward at the same time.
- Beckenbauer will make his traditional forward runs to provide support to the attack and he is more than good enough to balance that with his defensive duties.
- Having someone like Figueroa in there also will allow me to launch quick counter attacks when you lose the ball in my area. If someone like Britener does commit forward and during the same phase I am able to launch a CA from the back, it will leave ample space for Zico, Baggio and a breaking Kaiser to use.

I have set up the team a for a hard fought 1-0 win against an attacking side. It may no be the most fancy approach but that is how tight football games are won.

Most of the your points I have addressed in my post above
Sure, if you want Beckenbauer to make his traditional forward runs and leave Falcao alone against Maradona and Zizinho, by all means
Do you have the width and pace for this counterattacking game that you purports? or is it my team, with the pace and the width, with the runners and passers that will tear you apart on the counter?

 

[Polaroid]

Also when Carlos is on the touch line and Maldini is coming out to deal with him, is it not asking him to play the same role as a right back?

Says the guy asking Kohler to cover Carlos against Garrincha
Out covering the flank, I will have 10x more confidence in Maldini vs Carlos than Kohler vs Garrincha

 

[Polaroid]

I thought Andrade Jr played half back as well?

None of us bar antohan have seen or know much about Jose Andrade mate, so defining his role like based on very little knowledge doesn't make sense IMO - I understand where you are coming from though because he is often described as a half back. The fact is that the game was completely different then and in a 2-3-5 formation the team doesn't have a 'wingback', so its very difficult to make comparisons.

Antohan of course knows a huge deal about Jose Andrade and Uruguayan football in general - he played him at right back throughout the tournament in the last All Time draft, and in fact won the final with Jose Andrade at right back.

So who am I up against now? is it you and crappy? how about Edgar?

 

[crappycraperson]

fecking hell Pol, you are desperate for a win here, easy with the bold and size of the texts!

 

[crappycraperson]

Give me 10, I will reply to some of your points

 

[Polaroid]

You have to bear in mind this is World Cup Andrade, not the magnificent Olympian. He didn't have a particularly active attacking role, largely distributed from the halfway line or slightly deeper (as a DM would, indeed).

He had been out of a club for 2-3 months before the tourno and was partially blind in one eye from an injury sustained in the 1928 olympics final (hit his head hard against a post). He still was physically superior to any other option and knew the team, system, partners and opponents (argies) inside out, which allowed him to turn in superb defensive performances, particularly in the final. His role as halfback then would actually not be miles away from what Maldini is doing here. He kept tabs on the winger and inside left, but primarily concerned himself with the latter as that was the primary source of danger.

I can see him doing an excellent defensive job, but there is zero width on that flank.

Exactly, where is the width in Crappy/Theon's team coming from?
Andrade will find Boniek's game very befuddling - Boniek will be zipping all the place like a hyperactive energizer bunny on steroids

 

[Polaroid]

fecking hell Pol, you are desperate for a win here, easy with the bold and size of the texts!

sorry Crappy, something I picked up from Anto missed out the bulk of yesterday due to family (match started at bad time for me), and it looks like I could be up against 3 managers, so I have a lot of ground to catch up, pardon the font please

 

[Polaroid]

It just dawned on me that Pol's attack is setup exactly like Argentina's in 1930. Stabile as CF was the top scorer and Nasazzi was onto him (much like Figueroa on Eusebio here) which is why Andrade's role was more akin to an RCB, the dangerman (assister and occasional scorer) was Varallo, i.e. Maradona here. He largely made it his business to keep him nullified but in order to do so he relied heavily on the tracking winger (Dorado) supporting the flank. He would only deal with the winger to the extent that was needed to give Dorado time to catch up. There's no such tracking winger here... But then there's two central midfielders so Maradona would largely be Beckenbauer's job.

Not sure what it all adds up to, he is not being asked to do the job he would do best, but I think he would be competent enough to take care off the flank, but as a defensive fullback, not a wingback, that's not his 1930 persona at all.

Astute observation
Beckenbauer is on the wrong side though, for 2/3 of the match, Crappy has Falcao directly up against Maradona

 

[antohan]

Well I disagree. He has more outlets to attack but I am shutting him down at everyone of those. For example, for Mane to work his magic you are asking him to skip past Carlos, then Kohler and then counter Sciera to either beat Yashin or find one of the other attackers

You need Carlos at the other end if you are to have any chance of scoring. Not for what he can do, put to pull Maldini wide. That to me is Garrincha on Kohler from the off 50% of the time (I liked your odd looking teamsheet actually!).

Once he beats Kohler (which he will regularly enough) he doesn't also need to beat Scirea, the defence is in disarray and if he needs to "beat" Scirea then someone else is bound to be free to assist.

Same for my attacks, can Baggio 94 not weave a run to score or would my attack not create a single chance? Would Muller miss that chance?

I've gone on about that in my own game and Pol has a better defensive setup here. Two 9.5s who will not add up to as much as the sum of them individually. No pace upfront. All very central and laboured. You'll find a goal, not more though.

 

[crappycraperson]

- Regarding Beckenbauer. I will again leave it to the voters to decide on this one. I personally think that he was good enough to play a proper box to box role even in game like this.
- I still maintain that it is a mistake to play Diego in a magic square formation. Zizinhio for me will just another body in there. I don't see him having much impact here. That is not a comment on Zizinhio the player but his role in this system along side Maradona. Personally if I had gotten hold of Diego I won't have paired him up with Kopa at all since to me that would not have worked.
- As far as CA goes. Carlos's pace would be a big plus and Figerora was a master at starting quick counter attacks from the back. Then you have Baggio in there who is great at running at defenders. Space would be my friend when it comes to counter attacks. There is nothing stopping Zico or Baggio to drag your central defensive players wide with the ball.

 

[Polaroid]

Pol, how high is your defensive line? To choke them you would be better off pushing it up but, differently from Chilavert, Maspoli was no sweeper-keeper.

variation of 10-20 yards or so above the box where I can limit Muller's game
comfortable gap for Maspoli to cope and quickly counter via Garrincha and Boniek on the flanks

edit: typo

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I gave Anto a lot of credit for his sweeper keeper and thought he was crucial to deny that long ball over the top counterattack option for a goal. I also was surprised that no one questioned Gilmar as a kind of sweeper keeper in my first game, though I didn't use him in a comparable extreme way as Anto did, because I knew that he wasn't one, but at least in my first game with the crazy high back line, it was a bit of a problem.

But it's difficult to question a worldcup winning goalkeeper with several great performances and say he's less likely to deny a goal in a one on one against Müller than Yashin is against Eusebio. I'm really clueless here, can you honestly say that there is a significant difference that will change the outcome of the game often enough here, so that it should influence the vote?

No - I wouldn't go that far. But in a very tight match I think you can - generally speaking, I'm not talking about this particular match - make a case for Yashin or Banks being the difference if the other guy sports a more average keeper.

Anto's Chilavert move was excellent - that is true. And he actually included the keeper in his tactical arguments - which I liked very much.

 

[antohan]

I gave Anto a lot of credit for his sweeper keeper and thought he was crucial to deny that long ball over the top counterattack option for a goal. I also was surprised that no one questioned Gilmar as a kind of sweeper keeper in my first game, though I didn't use him in a comparable extreme way as Anto did, because I knew that he wasn't one, but at least in my first game with the crazy high back line, it was a bit of a problem.

And then you question why I never voted you... I could see Vava at full pelt against a stranded keeper. It didn't look very safe

 

[crappycraperson]

You need Carlos at the other end if you are to have any chance of scoring. Not for what he can do, put to pull Maldini wide. That to me is Garrincha on Kohler from the off 50% of the time (I liked your odd looking teamsheet actually!).

Once he beats Kohler (which he will regularly enough) he doesn't also need to beat Scirea, the defence is in disarray and if he needs to "beat" Scirea then someone else is bound to be free to assist.



I've gone on about that in my own game and Pol has a better defensive setup here. Two 9.5s who will not add up to as much as the sum of them individually. No pace upfront. All very central and laboured. You'll find a goal, not more though.

I have already said a single goal is all what I am looking for. I am confident in my defensive set up to stop Pol from scoring.

 

[Polaroid]

The fundamental issue here IMO is I can see Pol's attack scoring a couple at least while I struggle to see crappy scoring more than one.

It's all quite one-dimensional and far easier to defend against and keep under wraps. Pol instead screams goals and has a solid enough defensive setup which should be able to handle the task at hand.

Excellent summary

 

[crappycraperson]

I must say if people think Pol side is bound to score here then anto was extremely unlucky to lose by such a huge margin against Theon in the previous round.

He had an even more attacking team against the same set up. If Pol has Garrincha, Anto had two center forwards up front and Czibor at the left wing.

Here is what Aldo, assistant to Pol had to say then-

Can't see Theon's defense conceding here.

.....

That defense has only improved with Figueroa in there and Yashin at the back as well.

 

[Balu]

And then you question why I never voted you... I could see Vava at full pelt against a stranded keeper. It didn't look very safe

Vava was offside all the time, so it wasn't really a big problem. And I don't think Gilmar was much of an issue in the next two games with the way my team was set up and it's not like he isn't a great keeper, he was no sweeper keeper, but he still had quite a few attributes that could have seen him develop into a very balanced one in today's game. Also I never questioned why you never voted for me, I called the reason you gave in the last match nonsense .

 

[crappycraperson]

Oh boy there are a lot of posts from Aldo in that thread making my case here..

 

[Polaroid]

And as mentioned in OP, if Pol pits one of Zito/Brietnwe on Zico, then if may turn out to be a 4vs4 with width (Carlos) and equal battles always favour the strikers.

How many managers in the opposition team am I up against here? Theon may not have intended it, but it is a brilliant move to have 2 more people arguing for the team
Pity is these 2 managers now cannot vote
How does 4 vs 4 come about? I have Maldini-Moore-Krol-Breitner-Zito, 5 back there. Krol and Moore with their passing can play a quick release to Maradona/Zizinho or a devastating ball to Garrincha/Boniek on the counterattack. Watch the final of WC 66 for Moore's passing.

 

[crappycraperson]

How many managers in the opposition team am I up against here? Theon may not have intended it, but it is a brilliant move to have 2 more people arguing for the team
Pity is 2 managers cannot vote
How does 4 vs 4 come about? I have Maldini-Moore-Krol-Breitner-Zito, 5 back there. Krol and Moore with their passing can play a quick release to Maradona/Zizinho or a devastating ball to Garrincha/Boniek on the counterattack

I have asked Theon to refrain from posting.

Only one of me and Edgar will be posting at one particular time.

 

[antohan]

Exactly, where is the width in Crappy/Theon's team coming from?
Andrade will find Boniek's game very befuddling - Boniek will be zipping all the place like a hyperactive energizer bunny on steroids

I think Boniek's game is always overlooked, he just zips around but adds up to jack. Shame really. He is critical to these 4v4s AFC mentioned earlier. In the absence of a wide threat down his flank, he is supporting the midfield and defence effectively. Yes, Carlos pulls Maldini, but Boniek at the other end takes over from Breitner, letting him drop into the overstretched three to make it a four.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Astute observation
Beckenbauer is on the wrong side though, for 2/3 of the match, Crappy has Falcao directly up against Maradona

Caught my attention too. I'd switch 'em personally. Seems a recurring theme with Beckenbauer in this tournament - left or right? And does it really make a difference?

 

[antohan]

- Regarding Beckenbauer. I will again leave it to the voters to decide on this one. I personally think that he was good enough to play a proper box to box role even in game like this.

He is, I think the last thong you need is more people running through central channels. No point taking risks in defence for that. The side lacks width, it's been carrying the same problems as last time out, just happens to now face a less makeshift defensive setup. I missed Krol last time out

 

[crappycraperson]

Caught my attention too. I'd switch 'em personally. Seems a recurring theme with Beckenbauer in this tournament - left or right? And does it really make a difference?

I don't think it does since I am not using him to man mark Diego. In any case, Diego will be using that whole area.

 

[crappycraperson]

He is, I think the last thong you need is more people running through central channels. No point taking risks in defence for that. The side lacks width, it's been carrying the same problems as last time out, just happens to now face a less makeshift defensive setup. I missed Krol last time out

Fine. But still a lot of people thought an inferior defensive set up to this was good enough not to concede any against your team. Only thing Pol has changed attacking wise is - left his center forward isolated in the central area and added another AM who in my IMO is redundant with Diego in there. I love Mane, but is it really just him? Carlos + Kohler is definitely good enough to take care of him. I know Carlos gets no credit for his defensive abilities but seriously he was no mug. Only issue with him is how much attacking support he can provide with Mane in there, not that he is not good enough to provide resistance to Garrincha

 

[antohan]

Vava was offside all the time, so it wasn't really a big problem. And I don't think Gilmar was much of an issue in the next two games with the way my team was set up and it's not like he isn't a great keeper, he was no sweeper keeper, but he still had quite a few attributes that could have seen him develop into a very balanced one in today's game. Also I never questioned why you never voted for me, I called the reason you gave in the last match nonsense .

Now I remember! I felt a bit crap about highlighting the beauty that Rossi and Vava were so kept saying "if Vava can stay onside". It was a valid point, yeah, but surely he would be onside enough times?

 

[Polaroid]

Sorry lads, have to go away to spend quality family time, will be back in a couple of hours, hopefully before the match ends
Thank you for the quality inputs from all, for a healthy discussion on football
Crappy, sorry if any of the bolded font and size offended you, see you later

 

[crappycraperson]

Sorry lads, have to go away to spend quality family time, will be back in a couple of hours, hopefully before the match ends
Thank you for the quality inputs from all, for a healthy discussion on football
Crappy, sorry if any of the bolded font and size offended you, see you later

No mate. It is fine, I don't take these things any where near as seriously as some on here. I don't mean that as a jibe but just how it is. Ii actually understand why would you be a touch desperate to win against this team now. And yeah been a very good discussion.

 

[Polaroid]

Oh just before I leave, Zizinho is not redundant to this game - not just his ability to link up with great players in a central attacking trio ala Jair-Ademir-Zizinho but also his creativity, passing and shooting which will occupy Beckenbauer, leaving Falcao alone vs Maradona

 

[antohan]

Anyhow, i'm off as I'm not going to be very helpful when I obviously think I should have won last time out. Crappy has every right to cry wolf at those arguing for his side last time out though

But then, they could quote Theon's views on Ghiggia...

What goes around comes around