World Cup All-Time All-Stars Final: Team Annah vs Team Theon+Snow+Crappy

[Theon]

So who in your team prevents Didi/Pele/Matthäus to pass a ball to the wide area where you don't have any players?

I don't understand what you think the two fullbacks are doing?

Let me get this straight - you have said that Ronaldinho and Stoichkov will be pinning back Carlos/Alberto and that they won't see much possession because they will be positionally marked..

Carlos/Alberto won't receive many balls being positionally marked by Stoichkov and Ronaldinho

So your wingers are marking out my wingbacks, yet when you have possession your wingers are completely unmarked passing options.

Ronaldinho and Stoichkov will be unmarked passing options

You can see how that is bullshit, right?

 

[Annahnomoss]

Positional marking aka Zonal marking. The wingers together with the full-backs provide the wide defense together. I have a numerical advantage there meaning even if Alberto gets past Ronaldinho - he has one of the best left backs in history to beat as well.

I have one more player out wide mate, you have one striker more and one defender more. You are fighting a pointless battle here, you should be going on about "Yeah I have less players in the midfield and out wide, but I have X and Y instead".

If Alberto follows Ronaldinho towards the midfield battle, it means Facchetti will be free on the wing against no defender.

But if Ronaldinho follows Alberto to the midfield battle when you have possession. Facchetti will be unchallenged on the left side as Alberto is in the midfield battle.

 

[antohan]

Aye, possession always plays a key role with attackers of this quality.

I certainly don't think Annah will have more possession, he seems to think that having two wingers in the team the ball will be dominated, when it clearly doesn't work like that. Possession is built from the back and in Scirea/Figueroa/Carlos Alberto there is absolute top quality passers from deep.

Ignoring that level of ability from defence, but highlighting two wingers is very strange IMO.

5-3-2 is not something I would ever associate with possession. Bore and dull the feck out of everyone by soaking and countering, yups, but not possession. Never, no matter how good the players are at passing (and I struggle to work out who would be crap at it on either side). That passing from deep fo yours is only relevant to trigger a counter, which is why I banged on about the need for pace and width before (or someone like Maradona at his darned best providing the pause and orchestrating, which is more a Socrates than a Zico trait).

There's no getting away from the fact that you have a truckload more defenders dealing with a single striker, that is bound to lead to a shortfall elsewhere.

In attack Annah would have his front 4 + Matthaus + Facchetti attacking (6) vs. 7 players, but three of yours are sitting deep for one striker and the potential need for cover so there's plenty of room and options for Annah to work with. In your attack you have 2+2WBs+Zico+Falcao (6) vs. 7 players as well (the back 4+2DMs+Stoichkov) but he has a lot more men pressing you across the board, not just sitting back and waiting for the ball to get to the box for numerical advantage to be exercised.

Thus, Annah's setup is more conducive to dominating possession, not just as a result of numbers but also because his wide options are Ronaldinho and Stoichkov instead of Bobby and CA. Comparing those providing width alone tells you the whole story: which is the side best suited for possession and which is the one setup to counter? Both can counter, the difference is you do that almost exclusively because you can't dominate or control the game in midfield. I know, all great players, but his are as well, so that's when the setup and fit-for-purpose necessarily kicks in.

 

[antohan]

I'm very surprised by how one-sided the voting is so far. I don't see any decisive advantage in either tactics or personnel for either team. I can't really buy this 5 vs 3 line in midfield that Annah's selling either! To view Stoichkov and in particular Ronaldinho as both keeping width and thereby pinning the two Carlos back, and also creating a numerical advantage in the middle of the park, is a big leap. Particularly when Pele is another one of the 5 in the middle.

I see his point on midfield dominance, just think it's badly articulated. Assuming wingbacks are pinned back is indeed a ridiculous notion, but if you run through the phases of the game you can clearly see a problem, which boils down to the logical repercusions of three men in central defence to deal with the one striker (+ covering needs IF the wingback gets beaten). It's 3 chaps vs. 1 stuck on the periphery... until you are under a feckload of pressure.

How is that not conceding possession and the initiative?

 

[Fergus' son]

Brilliant team that Annah has assembled. He winged it for a couple rounds with those cbs but it paid off and now he has a great final team.

No chance for crappy here IMO, 10-1 down it seems like it's already over. Didn't want to say in the main thread but looking at annahs team, only a prime Maradona (in the exact formation he excelled in no less!) would have stood a chance of overcoming this opposition. Scandalous that he was passed over IMO.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Hm. I'm going to do something I would've never done in a sober state. Use bullet points.

• This was a major uncertainty for me. And now I see that Annah has indeed gone for Ronaldinho over Charlton. I don't agree with that decision. On WC form Sir Bob wins that hands down for me.
• Stoichkov is immense. On WC form too. I feel he's a bit underrated here, perhaps, in terms of what he actually offers. But it's evident that he isn't really a player you can sell as an asset in a fullback + wide man combination that will be of significant value in a defensive sense. And the same obviously goes for Ronaldinho on the opposite side - times two and a half.
• I don't see the great benefit of lining up crappy's/Theon's/Snow's team in a 3-5-2. I would prefer to see those players utilized differently. To me there is something unbalanced to using Eusebio (who is explicitly described as dropping deep, starting attacks from there, etc.) in that role with Zico in the same set-up.
• Annah is using Pelé to great effect in my opinion. And that in itself is almost a match winning move. One that could have been countered - again in my opinion - by using Maradona in that 3-5-2 set-up. I don't like saying it, because the team should be judged on who is there - not on who is missing - but it's hard to ignore when it's so obviously a tactical disposition AND the formation is being positively sold as, precisely, a 3-5-2.
• The whole fullback or wingback situation is neither here nor there for me. Now, keep in mind that I am not sober. But for me these cats, great as they may be, as fullbacks or wingbacks, are clearly just sidekicks here. They have "sidekick" written all over them when you look at who is actually grabbing this match by the proverbial scruff of its proverbial neck.

Right, that should be a bit pro and a bit contra, eh? Now, I look forward to the second half, as it were. And I promise not to vote until I'm hung over, bitter and focused tomorrow!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Good Lord. I didn't see the vote until now. That is wild.

 

[antohan]

No chance for crappy here IMO, 10-1 down it seems like it's already over. Didn't want to say in the main thread but looking at annahs team, only a prime Maradona (in the exact formation he excelled in no less!) would have stood a chance of overcoming this opposition. Scandalous that he was passed over IMO.

Aye, and I got shit for even daring to suggest it and make the case. Go figure...

 

[Fergus' son]

Aye, and I got shit for even daring to suggest it and make the case. Go figure...

I couldn't believe it, I actually thought Annan might be slightly irked that you made it so explicitly clear how they could draft and utilise Maradona before I realised that they weren't even going to take up the suggestion!

 

[Gio]

Thoughts:

• Not buying this 5 v 3 debate. Football's a bit more fluid than that, especially when the likes of Ronaldinho and Pele are included in the five.
• In terms of that 'midfield battle', I can see Beckenbauer, Falcao, Matthaus and to a lesser extent Stoichkov putting a shift in. Matthaus might feel a little stretched when Crappy/Theon has the ball, because the Brazilians aren't offering much graft in the way of getting it back.
• There's plenty of scope for Scirea or Figueroa to join the midfield when Crappy/Theon has the ball.
• I think Crappy/Theon will have plenty of the ball albeit most of it far away from Annah's goal as it's recirculated between Figueroa, Scirea, Falcao and Beckenbauer.

 

[Fergus' son]

Hm. I'm going to do something I would've never done in a sober state. Use bullet points.

• This was a major uncertainty for me. And now I see that Annah has indeed gone for Ronaldinho over Charlton. I don't agree with that decision. On WC form Sir Bob wins that hands down for me.
• Stoichkov is immense. On WC form too. I feel he's a bit underrated here, perhaps, in terms of what he actually offers. But it's evident that he isn't really a player you can sell as an asset in a fullback + wide man combination that will be of significant value in a defensive sense. And the same obviously goes for Ronaldinho on the opposite side - times two and a half.
• I don't see the great benefit of lining up crappy's/Theon's/Snow's team in a 3-5-2. I would prefer to see those players utilized differently. To me there is something unbalanced to using Eusebio (who is explicitly described as dropping deep, starting attacks from there, etc.) in that role with Zico in the same set-up.
• Annah is using Pelé to great effect in my opinion. And that in itself is almost a match winning move. One that could have been countered - again in my opinion - by using Maradona in that 3-5-2 set-up. I don't like saying it, because the team should be judged on who is there - not on who is missing - but it's hard to ignore when it's so obviously a tactical disposition AND the formation is being positively sold as, precisely, a 3-5-2.
• The whole fullback or wingback situation is neither here nor there for me. Now, keep in mind that I am not sober. But for me these cats, great as they may be, as fullbacks or wingbacks, are clearly just sidekicks here. They have "sidekick" written all over them when you look at who is actually grabbing this match by the proverbial scruff of its proverbial neck.

Right, that should be a bit pro and a bit contra, eh? Now, I look forward to the second half, as it were. And I promise not to vote until I'm hung over, bitter and focused tomorrow!

Good post mate, particularly being inebriated!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

"They think it's all over..." And it bleedin' well is. Unless a miracle occurs. That was a bit of a let-down, I must say. I was dreaming of penalties and whatnot here!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Good post mate, particularly being inebriated!

Thanks, mate! I think I'm better whilst inebriated, though. Up until a certain point, that is. And that point is fast approaching, so I should probably shut the feck up now.

 

[Fergus' son]

Thanks, mate! I think I'm better whilst inebriated, though. Up until a certain point, that is. And that point is fast approaching, so I should probably shut the feck up now.

With regards to Charlton vs Ronaldinho, I actually agree that I probably would prefer Sir Bobby in there. However, it isn't a straight choice given the pre and post '72 restrictions.

 

[Annahnomoss]

@Gio Very fair points but I must add that Didi would get back and work hard as well and shouldn't be grouped in as defensively equal to Pele/Ronaldo/Ronaldinho. (Eusebio/Muller/Zico suffer from this as well though)

@Chesterlestreet Can just take a quote about why Bulgaria made it out of the group-stage in '94 to highlight just how much Stoichkov would help in the defense. "Bulgaria managed to advance thanks to the sensational work rate of Stoichkov and Balakov.".

Also I would never be mad with Antohan for providing the tactical tips to Theon/Crappy/Snow. I am here because I want interesting match-ups with great tactical battles and discussions. I didn't say a word about the 2 pages consultation he had because I was just happy for him.

I really liked the Maradona idea and was hoping I would face it because I knew it would be the best match-up. Pele vs Maradona, just how this final was supposed to go down whoever made it here.

 

[antohan]

• This was a major uncertainty for me. And now I see that Annah has indeed gone for Ronaldinho over Charlton. I don't agree with that decision. On WC form Sir Bob wins that hands down for me.

Was the only way to fit in Bobby Moore. He could have gone with Santamaría, who would have been absolutely fine, but is grossly underrated. What Charlton has on Ronnie is somewhat made up by how well he would sync with Ronaldo, Pelé and, from a Barca-style point of view, Stoichkov at the other end.

• Stoichkov is immense. On WC form too. I feel he's a bit underrated here, perhaps, in terms of what he actually offers. But it's evident that he isn't really a player you can sell as an asset in a fullback + wide man combination that will be of significant value in a defensive sense. And the same obviously goes for Ronaldinho on the opposite side - times two and a half.

I think Stoichkov is the one tipping the balance actually. That to me is indeed not an attacking but a defensive wing. Lahm tucks into a three when Facchetti attacks and Stoichkov makes a big difference contributing to recovery with his characteristic rausa (passion).

The other is the attacking wing. Facchetti bombs forward, the best attacking left back in history, covered by no less than the best defensive leftback in history. That's Facchetti and Ronnie 2v1 on Carlos Alberto, that's Ronnie in his element, and they take him out over and over again, which requires Figueroa to come out in support, as is his job. Before he can do much about it the cross goes in...

Either Facchetti or Ronnie will be excellent delivering, from deep, the byline or the corner of the box. Who is in there? Ronaldo, of course, with Scirea in close attention, but also Pelé and Stoichkov attacking the ball at the far post. Bobby Carlos is hopeless dealing with that, Kohler can take one, but not both. Header at goal or knockdown for someone else to bang it in. There's a couple of goals there, no doubt in my mind.

It's the clearest, most straightforward and proven route to goal on the entire pitch and they can keep doing it over and over again for 90 minutes. There's nothing even remotely as clearcut at the other end. Basically, they are fecked.

 

[antohan]

I couldn't believe it, I actually thought Annan might be slightly irked that you made it so explicitly clear how they could draft and utilise Maradona before I realised that they weren't even going to take up the suggestion!

Aye, I was feeling a bit bad about it but it was outrageous it wasn't even being contemplated when it was right in front of them. Maradona out of an All-Time Peak WC Final, WTF?????? With a side playing 3-5-2... If you planned it it wouldn't have been so perfect, seriously.

I even noticed Annah stoking them by saying "but I'm not going to ask Matthaus to man-mark Maradona". It worked, although the obvious reaction would have been "then you are fecked too mate"

 

[antohan]

• There's plenty of scope for Scirea or Figueroa to join the midfield when Crappy/Theon has the ball.

Not too far up though or else the whole concept of having cover against Ro-Ro and even Pelé himself is out of the window. I agree though he can keep knocking it about in his own half, that's all the credible possession I would expect that side to exercise, pointless time-wasting one.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Was the only way to fit in Bobby Moore. He could have gone with Santamaría, who would have been absolutely fine, but is grossly underrated. What Charlton has on Ronnie is somewhat made up by how well he would sync with Ronaldo, Pelé and, from a Barca-style point of view, Stoichkov at the other end.



I think Stoichkov is the one tipping the balance actually. That to me is indeed not an attacking but a defensive wing. Lahm tucks into a three when Facchetti attacks and Stoichkov makes a big difference contributing to recovery with his characteristic rausa (passion).

The other is the attacking wing. Facchetti bombs forward, the best attacking left back in history, covered by no less than the best defensive leftback in history, no less. That's Facchetti and Ronnie 2v1 on Carlos Alberto, that's Ronnie in his element, and they take him out over and over again, which requires Figueroa to come out in support, as is his job. Before he can do much about it the cross goes in...

Either Facchetti or Ronnie will be excellent delivering, from deep, the byline or the corner of the box. Who is in there? Ronaldo, of course, with Scirea in close attention, but also Pelé and Stoichkov attacking the ball at the far post. Bobby is hopeless dealing with that, Kohler can take one, but not both. Header at goal or knockdown for someone else to bang it in. There's a couple of goals there, no doubt in my mind.

It's the clearest, most straightforward and proven route to goal on the entire pitch and they can keep doing it over and over again for 90 minutes. There's nothing even remotely as clearcut at the other end. Basically, they are fcuked.

Aye - absolutely. Stoichkov had...rausa? You got me there, jefe - that ain't Spanish, is it? Well, he was one hell of a fighter at any rate. And one hell of a player. My criticism was more specific: I don't think it's fair to portray him as a defensive asset as such, as part of a fullback + winger combination.

Unless I'm horribly mistaken Stoichkov's nickname in Bulgarian translates as "The Dagger". Which strikes me as particularly fitting.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Aye - absolutely. Stoichkov had...rausa? You got me there, jefe - that ain't Spanish, is it?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

C'mon, man! It seems appropriate, don't it?

 

[Annahnomoss]

Damn right it was appropriate. Antohan is inofficially known as "El jefe" in these fantasy drafts.

 

[antohan]

Aye - absolutely. Stoichkov had...rausa? You got me there, jefe - that ain't Spanish, is it? Well, he was one hell of a fighter at any rate. And one hell of a player. My criticism was more specific: I don't think it's fair to portray him as a defensive asset as such, as part of a fullback + winger combination.

Unless I'm horribly mistaken Stoichkov's nickname in Bulgarian translates as "The Dagger". Which strikes me as particularly fitting.

Rauxa in fact, the s is Spanish adoption. In latin, it means outburst.

The Laudrup-Stoichkov combo was referred to/described as seny-rauxa, the constant efervescent tension between reason/nous and passionate outbursts. Pelé-Stoichkov fits that definition well too.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Rauxa in fact, the s is Spanish adoption. In latin, it means outburst.

The Laudrup-Stoichkov combo was referred to/described as seny-rauxa, the constant efervescent tension between reason/nous and passionate outbursts. Pelé-Stoichkov fits that definition well too.

Ah! As in sense and passion. Rauxa. Could it be the same root as in arousal?

 

[antohan]

BTW, agree Stoichkov won't be supporting the fullback deep, he will mostly track Carlos, then concern himself with Falcao more than Carlos. That's what I would naturally expect to happen. It also gives him a headstart on Carlos down that flank, not that I think that will be exploited as much as the other one. I'm sure Stoichkov can torment Carlos down that flank, but I'd rather see the other flank being worked and the tormenting happening at the far post.

Just take any clip and look up how many times he shows up utterly free at the far post. Everyone knew he was a beast and particularly dangerous, yet he had a knack for completely losing his mark with his movement when the play was at the other end.

Actually, just watch this short one. Unplayable really.

 

[antohan]

Ah! As in sense and passion. Rauxa. Could it be the same root as in arousal?

Most likely, yes. It was a beautiful balance between Laudrup and Stoichkov, could never get bored of watching them play together.

 

[Moby]

Hablo espanol un poco pero tampoco no comprendo "rausa".

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Most likely, yes. It was a beautiful balance between Laudrup and Stoichkov, could never get bored of watching them play together.

Oh, don't start. Barca in them days was something. The tiki-taka bunch have nothing on 'em in terms of aesthetic value. They had flair, potency and unpredictability. The latter-day version had flair, no doubt, and potency in terms of actually being able to put the deciding ball into the net. But they never had that unpredictability. They never had that air of...effortlessness. And the latter is what I detect time and time again when it comes to true greatness. It ain't forced, it ain't even fully contained, it has an aspect to it which is just pure...well, it's pure and it somehow flows beyond whatever limits are set for it.

Alright, now I'm truly drunk.

 

[antohan]

Oh, don't start. Barca in them days was something. The tiki-taka bunch have nothing on 'em in terms of aesthetic value. They had flair, potency and unpredictability. The latter-day version had flair, no doubt, and potency in terms of actually being able to put the deciding ball into the net. But they never had that unpredictability. They never had that air of...effortlessness. And the latter is what I detect time and time again when it comes to true greatness. It ain't forced, it ain't even fully contained, it has an aspect to it which is just pure...well, it's pure and it somehow flows beyond whatever limits are set for it.

Alright, now I'm truly drunk.

In short: too much seny, but little rauxa It's the perfect balance between both that captures both mind and spirit.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Hablo espanol un poco pero tampoco no comprendo "rausa".

Es tiempo para español en la nivel de escuela ahora! Quien quiereis hablar sobre un estupido Fantasy Draft cuando podemos hablar en Castellano todo la dia.

 

[antohan]

Quiero ovejas, y no por animalofilia!

 

[Moby]

My teacher would be so proud to see that I'm practicing my Spanish, even when I am on the internet.

 

[antohan]

Que?

 

[Annahnomoss]

Was the only way to fit in Bobby Moore. He could have gone with Santamaría, who would have been absolutely fine, but is grossly underrated. What Charlton has on Ronnie is somewhat made up by how well he would sync with Ronaldo, Pelé and, from a Barca-style point of view, Stoichkov at the other end.



I think Stoichkov is the one tipping the balance actually. That to me is indeed not an attacking but a defensive wing. Lahm tucks into a three when Facchetti attacks and Stoichkov makes a big difference contributing to recovery with his characteristic rausa (passion).

The other is the attacking wing. Facchetti bombs forward, the best attacking left back in history, covered by no less than the best defensive leftback in history. That's Facchetti and Ronnie 2v1 on Carlos Alberto, that's Ronnie in his element, and they take him out over and over again, which requires Figueroa to come out in support, as is his job. Before he can do much about it the cross goes in...

Either Facchetti or Ronnie will be excellent delivering, from deep, the byline or the corner of the box. Who is in there? Ronaldo, of course, with Scirea in close attention, but also Pelé and Stoichkov attacking the ball at the far post. Bobby Carlos is hopeless dealing with that, Kohler can take one, but not both. Header at goal or knockdown for someone else to bang it in. There's a couple of goals there, no doubt in my mind.

It's the clearest, most straightforward and proven route to goal on the entire pitch and they can keep doing it over and over again for 90 minutes. There's nothing even remotely as clearcut at the other end. Basically, they are fcuked.

Some great points in there mate.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I see his point on midfield dominance, just think it's badly articulated. Assuming wingbacks are pinned back is indeed a ridiculous notion, but if you run through the phases of the game you can clearly see a problem, which boils down to the logical repercusions of three men in central defence to deal with the one striker (+ covering needs IF the wingback gets beaten). It's 3 chaps vs. 1 stuck on the periphery... until you are under a fcukload of pressure.

How is that not conceding possession and the initiative?

That's a fair point. I said something similar to Annah, but I think the point Theon was making was that both teams will see plenty of the ball. Its not going to be 70-30% possession in favour of Annah, for example, not by a long shot. Also, I do feel that several of Theon/Crappy's team are going to be quicker and more adroit at transitioning back to defence from attack than Annah's - both wingbacks compared to Ronaldinho and to a lesser extent Stoichkov for example, arguably Zico vs Pele, certainly both Falcao and Beckenbauer vs Didi.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Didi and Matthäus will play very conservative especially Didi. He will play a deep holding role and won't venture forward but dictate from deep. So he won't really need to turn defense to offense the way a box-to-box Beckenbauer/Falcao needs to. Matthäus is certainly more adept than Falcao(but less than Beckenbauer) in terms of stamina and pace at getting back in to position.

The rest I agree with! Even if I think my possession will lead to shots/crosses/corners/freekicks more often than his.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I did mention this is the main thread too, a 3 man defence is only effective if your opponent is playing 2 attackers. Against less, it will become a liability as the team is vulnerable to pressing elsewhere.

Theon's 3 man defence with Kaiser shielding them is just overkill. Still, Theons is most suited for soak up pressure and it will almost be difficult to score against them....almost. But then with RoRoSto and Pele behind, it kinda evens out. If opponent is playing a 4-4-2, then maybe, but against a 4-2-3-1, wingbacks are not that effective. With them forward, Ronaldinho/Stoichkov will defeinitely stretch the defence on Annah's counter and that will definitely lead to a goal.

I still think the midfield battle is Annah's. I still rate Matthaus/Didi as more balanced that Kaiser/Falcao.

I think either in attack or in a counter, Annah has a better chance at scoring. If not Maradona, then dropping Scirea for Scorates is still a tasty option!

Well played to both teams!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Where is @Balu ?

 

[Annahnomoss]

I did mention this is the main thread too, a 3 man defence is only effective if your opponent is playing 2 attackers. Against less, it will become a liability as the team is vulnerable to pressing elsewhere.

Theon's 3 man defence with Kaiser shielding them is just overkill. Still, Theons is most suited for soak up pressure and it will almost be difficult to score against them....almost. But then with RoRoSto and Pele behind, it kinda evens out. If opponent is playing a 4-4-2, then maybe, but against a 4-2-3-1, wingbacks are not that effective. With them forward, Ronaldinho/Stoichkov will defeinitely stretch the defence on Annah's counter and that will definitely lead to a goal.

I still think the midfield battle is Annah's. I still rate Matthaus/Didi as more balanced that Kaiser/Falcao.

I think either in attack or in a counter, Annah has a better chance at scoring. If not Maradona, then dropping Scirea for Scorates is still a tasty option!

Great summary really you hit the nail with the hammer. Like you say the biggest counter to a three man defense is playing just one striker. Suddenly you have 3 players against just 1 and the striker occupies three players on his own without doing anything. Which in itself is a remarkable job no player can force on the opponents.

 

[Moby]

There's a VERY NSFW picture that could resemble the feelings at the end of this game between Pele and Beckenbauer.