World Cup All-Time All-Stars Final: Team Annah vs Team Theon+Snow+Crappy

[Polaroid]

TEAM ANNAH

Offense
In 1996 Ronaldo had possibly the best season in his career when playing for Barcelona. He played with the then aged Stoichkov and they formed a great partnership and it had everybody intrigued in how hard it would be to defend to these two if they were both peaking. My team brings a peaking Ronaldo and a peaking Stoichkov on the right wing together. Stoichkov was with Baggio and Romario the best offensive player in the world between ’90-’95 and is regarded as one of the best wingers in history.

On the left wing we find Ronaldinho who was one of Ronaldo’s playdates from Brazil in ’02.

Ronaldinho provided an assist/goal per game and was part of the team of the tournament. Most importantly he showed that he could work brilliantly together with Ronaldo and Rivaldo who would have a very similar style as Ronaldo/Pele and even Stoichkov. The three will have free roles in the offense – the wingers will then track Carlos/Alberto in the defense.

Behind them the team superstar Pele will be orchestrating the teams offense together with his partner of ’58, Didi, and also Matthäus. Didi will dictate this game from deep and will make sure that whenever the opponent counters they do it severely outnumbered. Matthäus will use his intelligence to only move forward if it is completely sound defensively and won’t lead to counters. This ability was one of his trademark skills and why his defense was regarded so high.

One of the things which made Pele so great in ’70 was that he provided a numerical advantage all over the offense by moving out wide, or down to the midfield then suddenly in to the box.
Pele will have the perfect canvas to paint using the Samba football of Didi, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo or the powerhouse abilities of Matthäus and Stoichkov. Out wide one full-back at the time will move up to provide width on the side the ball is at. Carlos and Alberto will be outnumbered against Ronaldinho and Facchetti on the left and Stoichkov and Lahm on the right.

Didi and Matthäus is a brilliant DM pairing, Didi possesses maybe the finest range of passing, an incredibly stamina, and an amazing ability to win interceptions through positioning. Matthäus is strong, ruthless, a great leader, a hard tackler and also has impeccable stamina. He is at the same time brilliant in possession with his fearsome shots, passing and driving runs in to space.

Defense
The defense is led by arguably the best World-Cup performing central defender in history in Bobby Moore. Both Pele and Franz Beckenbauer rated him as a gentleman, friend and the greatest defender they ever played against.

He was the complete defender. "Strong in the air, clinical in the tackle and boasting impeccable distribution. He was no sprinter, but his ability to read the game meant that he was rarely caught out for pace. The legendary Celtic manager Jock Stein said:“There should be a law against him. He knows what's happening 20 minutes before everyone else!”

“That ability to read and anticipate the play accounted for Moore's exceptional positional sense, his uncanny use of space, and the timing and precision of his tackling. He rarely went to ground when making a tackle and was such a good judge of high balls that he often didn't need to head them; he would position himself expertly to chest the ball down and in one smooth movement deliver a measured pass to a team-mate further upfield.”

Next to him is Paolo Maldini who with amazing pace for a central defender, great technique, vision, reading and especially notorious sliding tackles. Rated as one of the best defensive players in history, capable of playing both as a left back and a centre back. He is a perfect partner for Moore with his great pace.

Facchetti is considered to be maybe the best full-back in history with Paolo Maldini among others. ”He would make marauding runs upfield using his wonderful dribbling and crossing. He could also play at centre-back where his tackling was used to great effect. He also possessed wonderful stamina and scored important goals.”

On the other side is Phillip Lahm, one of 4 players to be part of the World Cup team of the tournament as a full-back two times, with one World Cup to go in his career. Defensively sound, great reader of the game and possesses brilliant intelligence which allows him to handle the fastest of opponents by being at the right place.

------------------Team Tactics:
----------------------4-5-1

 

[Polaroid]

​

TEAM THEON/CRAPPY

FORMATION– 3-5-2

World Cup Inspiration – Italy 1982, Argentina 1986, Germany 1990, Brazil 2002- All four won the World Cup playing some variant of this formation.

Proven 3-5-2 defensive success – Scirea replicates his libero role from 1982, Kohler his stopper role in a back three from 1990 and Roberto Carlos will bomb up the flank as he did in 2002

DEFENCE

An impeccable array of talent at the back with unmatched World Cup pedigree – the defence comprises two of football’s greatest centre backs with the masterful Italian sweeper Gaetano Scirea, whilst devastating Brazilian wingbacks provide the width to open up the pitch.

As a last line of defence the imperious Lev Yashin marshalls the goal - the undisputed best goalkeeper of all time and only keeper to ever win the Ballon d'Or

1) Defensive Stability – Kohler/Figueroa– Arguably footballs greatest ever ‘stopper’ Jurgen Kohler compliments the classiness of the rest of the defence with his immense strength, mentality and ruthless man marking ability. Whoever Annah plays up top Kohler will make the game extremely difficult - sticking tight and winning every 50/50 challenge.

His partner Figueroa is rivalled only by Passarella as the best South American defender of all time – dominant in the air, impeccable at reading the game and fantastic in possession, Figueroa was the quintessential complete defender.

Pasarella: "Figueroa and Beckenbauer have been the only centre backs who are better than me in Football History".

Pelé: "If Figueroa would have won a World Cup would be the best defender in the history."

Beckenbauer: “I am the European Figueroa.”

Spoiler

2) The Perfect Libero– For a back three to work it is vital that the sweeper possesses expert positioning and reading of the game to cover any danger that gets through the initial defenders, whilst also being an excellent ball player in possession.

In Scirea we have the perfect foil to cover Kohler and Figueroa defensively, as well as the wonderful ability to play out from the back. The team will look to dominate possession against Annah’s side, and this begins in defence with the elegant Scirea.

MIDFIELD

Beckenbauer/ Falcão/Zico.. An absolutely perfect unit.

Two complete footballers, Falcão and Beckenbauer combine defensive solidity with exquisite technique and ability on the ball. They will dominate the game from deep whilst Zico roams across the midfield terrorising Annah’s midfield with his dribbling and wonderful passing, all the time threatening to break forward and score himself – a constant threat given his exceptional 48 in 71 record for Brazil.

1) Box to Box Kaiser– In both 1966 and 1970 Beckenbauer played central midfield, scoring 5 goals and utilising his fantastic range of passing, as well as his typical dominating defensive displayes – particularly in 1970.

Capable of exquisite skill and possessing the engine to get up and down all game, Beckenbauer solidifies the midfield defensively whilst offering a huge threat in both transition and attack.

2) Falcão/Zico Brazilian Magic- In the history of the World Cup there have been few midfields capable of matching 1982 Brazil, with Zico and Falcão the undisputed stars.

Zico – Despite Brazil getting knocked out in the Quarter Finals, Zico contributed the most goals in the entire tournament with 4 goals and 4 assists in just 5 games.

Falcão – The best player in one of the greatest ever World Cups, scored 3 goals and completely dominated games from midfield. Falcão was awarded the Silver Ball as the second best footballer in the tournament – despite Brazil getting knocked out in the Quarter Finals.

I don’t think we will ever see that again, but its testament to how good Falcão was.

Spoiler

ATTACK

An exceptionally talented and complimentary partnership – Eusébio with a free role will drop deep, peel into the channels and interchange with the oncoming Zico, whilst Müller spearheads the attack and terrorizes Moore with his movement, acceleration and ruthless finishing.

Unrivalled goal scoring record – Eusébio and Müller scored a remarkable 1,350 goals in 1,383 games, and in just two World Cups scored 19 in just 12 games – each scoring well over a goal a game.

1) Der Bomber– 617 goals in 638 games and a staggering 68 goals in 62 games for Germany, there is not a better goalscorer in the entire draft than Gerd Müller

His World Cup pedigree is unrivalled, scoring the winning goal to defeat Cruyff’s Holland in the 1974 World Cup Final, as well as scoring an incredible 10 goals in the 1970 World Cup – an exceptional record that has not been matched in over 50 years.

2) The Black Panther– 733 goals in 745 games and star of the 1966 World Cup with 9 goals for Portugal – Powerful, lightening quick, blessed with a ferocious shot and winning mentality, there are few in the history of the game who can rival Eusébio.

With Müller playing on the shoulder as a number 9 Eusébio has complete freedom to drop deep and pick up possession, causing chaos with his direct dribbles and lethal instinct for goal.

 

[Polaroid]

Either hide videos in spoilers or wait till the 2nd page onwards please - reasons are already stated earlier in main thread

 

[Annahnomoss]

Team Crappy/Theon/Snow.

The team will look to dominate possession against Annah’s side, and this begins in defence with the elegant Scirea.

A 5 man defense almost automatically means conceding possession as you chose to have a man extra in the defense instead of in the midfield.

You also have one striker more than me, meaning I have 5 midfielders against your three. I don't believe Beckenbauer, Falcao and Zico would dominate possession against Matthäus, Didi, Pele, Ronaldinho and Stoichkov.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Possession.

That's what is going to decide the game.

If Annah has more possession, Pele/Ronaldo will definitely score. It Theon could curb this, it will be a evenly ties, imho.

 

[sun_tzu]

I think carlos and alberto would end up pushed too far back to provide the width and potentially overloaded when facchetti and lahm overlapped and ronaldiniho / stoihkoff drifted inside

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think carlos and alberto would end up pushed too far back to provide the width and potentially overloaded when facchetti and lahm overlapped and ronaldiniho / stoihkoff drifted inside

Very good point. An interesting one to combine this with is that Müller scored 8 out of his 10 goals from wide/wing-play/crosses.

The only other goals he scored in 1970 was 1 from a penalty and 1 from a defensive mistake.

My opponents really need the width from those wing-backs, but Carlos can't provide it against Stoichkov and Lahm and Alberto can't do it against Ronaldinho and Facchetti.

 

[crappycraperson]

So the match is up! I got stuffed at work today and could provide no input.

I won't vote and leave that to Theon.
Since he is not online right now, I will post my thoughts, as soon as he is there I will refrain from posting.

 

[crappycraperson]

Couple of points -

- Falcao and Kaiser do not need a third man in MF to control it. I am also not sure how Pele qualifies as a third midfielder here. Zico is more likely to help out in the middle than him. Pele is a second striker for me here.

- Funny bit about Carlos again, this time he does not even have a Garrincha there, According to people on here in a winger less formations such as diamond, 4222 or 352, the wing backs or full backs have no chance of going forward and providing width if the opposition is playing wingers and full backs. That's not how it works. Here the whole point of having 5 in the back is that both Carlos and Alberto can attack at will. If they are caught upfield you have enough bodies back to cover.

Also Ronaldinhio is not going to help out defensively at all. So whenever Carlos goes upfield it is straight up him vs Fachetti.

 

[Moby]

Also Ronaldinhio is not going to help out defensively at all. So whenever Carlos goes upfield it is straight up him vs Fachetti.

They are on opposite sides of the pitch, though.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think you are unfairly pushing your opinion on how my team will play as a fact when it is tactical stuff.

Ronaldinho is not the best defensive player, if you had a winger Ronaldinho would be in trouble. But you have Roberto Carlos not Garrincha, Ronaldinho can easily do a positional job on Alberto that severely increases the difficulty level for Alberto. Even if Facchetti is of course the super-star in that left sided defense.

Beckenbauer and Falcao are not better than Matthäus and Didi. Beckenbauer is slightly better than Matthäus, but Didi is slightly better than Falcao and Matthäus as well.

Pele is of course better than Zico, so if I am nice and say those 3 central players are equally skilled. Then Ronaldinho and Stoichkov must surely provide the numerical advantage and possession domination for me in the midfield.

 

[crappycraperson]

They are on opposite sides of the pitch, though.

I meant Carlos Alberto!

 

[crappycraperson]

I think you are unfairly pushing your opinion on how my team will play as a fact when it is tactical stuff.

Ronaldinho is not the best defensive player, if you had a winger Ronaldinho would be in trouble. But you have Roberto Carlos not Garrincha, Ronaldinho can easily do a positional job on Alberto that severely increases the difficulty level for Alberto. Even if Facchetti is of course the super-star in that left sided defense.

Beckenbauer and Falcao are not better than Matthäus and Didi. Beckenbauer is slightly better than Matthäus, but Didi is slightly better than Falcao and Matthäus as well.

Pele is of course better than Zico, so if I am nice and say those 3 central players are equally skilled. Then Ronaldinho and Stoichkov must surely provide the numerical advantage and possession domination for me in the midfield.

To be honest, I am not sure it matters much which position Ronaldinhio takes up. If he goes wide, there is Alberto there, if he comes inside I have enough central players to deal with it. Infact given how crowded it will be there you probably need him to stay out wide.

I don' think you will be dominating possession at all. But even if I was to conceded that you do, still can not see you scoring. Only way it is happening is brilliant solo effort by Pele. Also the reason why I said Pele would need to act as a second striker is because as good as Ronaldo 98 was, asking him to occupy Kohler, Figueroa and Scirea is a bit much.

In fact in possession, your front 4 will be up against as many as 7 players of utmost quality. They are not doing anything unless you commit Didi and another full back forward. That in turn will help me open you up in counter attacks

 

[Annahnomoss]

Very well. Personally I believe I will dominate possession thanks to a 5 vs 3 numerical advantage and player for player similar quality.

The counter for a 3 man central defense is having one striker, as that means you are playing 3 vs 1 inside the box for little reason. Ronaldo will play his free role which means at times in this game you will have 3 central defenders up against 0 players which is a big waste.

Ronaldo can move out wide behind Carlos/Alberto or he can drop down towards the midfield unmarked.

I don't believe it is going to be in your advantage that I dominate possession considering how hard it is to defend against Pele, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Facchetti and Stoichkov throughout a game.

 

[Cutch]

Great matchup. I'm thinking at this stage that Theon/Crappy/Snow/Whoeverthefeckelse's side is better equipped to deal with Annahs offence than vice versa. Zico might be the player to profit in this game.

Looks like an epic midfield battle. A lot of nice pairings around the park too. 2 very well balanced sides.

Not going to vote until later on.

 

[Annahnomoss]

@Cutch Zico and Müller aren't players suited to counter-attacking and Müllers main competitive edge is his ability to turn crosses to goals and a general fox-in-the-box skillset. Zico was a passer who loved short passes, movement, find open space and receive the ball.

So I think the only time his offense is very functional is under the premise that he will dominate possession and the wings. Will he dominate possession 3 vs 5 and the wide areas with just 2 wing-backs?

My defense consists of Maldini who is extremely fast for a central defender, maybe the fastest of the top ones. Moore's vision allowed him to intercept passes and he was well known for his ability to handle faster strikers(including handling and beating Eusebio and his Portugal in '66 and his legendary performance against Jairzinho, Pele and Tostao in 1970.).

They will also be helped by either Facchetti who is extremely pacey and a good tackler, or Phillip Lahm who always plays smart football and is rarely gotten the best of even against Cristiano Ronaldo or Messi.

So I think under the premise that I win possession, my defense is also very well picked to handle his team. Moore is a great counter to Eusebio as history showed, he will have Maldini who complements him perfectly next to him and not Jack Charlton.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I don't think Ronaldinho being crowded will bother him too much, he's done well against teams who have placed 2-3 players on him.
Just a random video I found on youtube:



And that's without stating the obvious Stoichkov vs Carlos, where Carlos' willingness to roam forward might seriously hurt crappy's team.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

And another thing, incase Ronaldinho gets crowded, that always means you get other players less watched. When you got coming against you Annah's players in Pele, Ronaldo, Stoichkov, Matthaus, Didi... I don't think goals will be an issue.


I must say though, this wasn't an easy call, crappy got some of my personal all time favorites.. Figueroa, Eusebio, Zico... Jesus.. You don't make it any easy for me huh?..


P.S, although I voted for Annah, I think crappy deserves some recognition for Yashin too. Keepers tend to be forgotten in these drafts, because usually you look at a keeper and think to yourself:"Will he be a game changer?.. Is he prone for mistakes, or maybe you know he's just the keeper to be there and save the possible shots and come out when needed and have good control of the box...", But no. Yashin is a game changer by himself, and that's extra credit for Crappy.

Great teams for a final lads, well done. I'm already looking forward to participate in the next draft, hopefully Aldo's sheep draft.

 

[Theon]

I don't think Ronaldinho being crowded will bother him too much, he's done well against teams who have placed 2-3 players on him.
Just a random video I found on youtube:

And that's without stating the obvious Stoichkov vs Carlos, where Carlos' willingness to roam forward might seriously hurt crappy's team.

Pol's post at the top - videos in spoilers.

Also I'm not sure why you posted a random video of a prime Ronaldinho doing tricks for Barcelona - this is a World Cup draft and club form doesn't get taken into account. That video is extremely misrepresentative, so I'm not sure why you are posting it.

Ronaldinho is actually quite comfortably the worst attacker on the pitch here - based on World Cup form. He was good in 2002 but he was only 22 years old, far from his peak, and still playing in France. He was comfortably the worst out of Ronaldinho/Rivaldo/Ronaldo.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Here is how he played in the World Cup of '02 to avoid discussion about club-form. An assist/goal per game and a difficult job to provide width on both the left and right side. Was part of the team of the tournament. I want to add that he is picked for his proven brilliant connection with Ronaldo as well as for the fact that Pele-Ronaldo-Ronaldinho will be quite similar to Rivaldo-Ronaldo-Ronaldinho.

Stoichkov played great with Ronaldo in that samba style too, and he is one of the very finest wingers who also performed in the World Cup.

Spoiler

 

[Theon]

Here is how he played in the World Cup of '02 to avoid discussion about club-form. An assist/goal per game and a difficult job to provide width on both the left and right side. Was part of the team of the tournament.

Zico contributed 8 assist/goals in 5 games, and the scoring record of Eusébio and Müller is absolutely not matched - 19 goals in 12 World Cup games.

Also,

Either hide videos in spoilers or wait till the 2nd page onwards please - reasons are already stated earlier in main thread

 

[Theon]

Possession.

That's what is going to decide the game.

If Annah has more possession, Pele/Ronaldo will definitely score. It Theon could curb this, it will be a evenly ties, imho.

Aye, possession always plays a key role with attackers of this quality.

I certainly don't think Annah will have more possession, he seems to think that having two wingers in the team the ball will be dominated, when it clearly doesn't work like that. Possession is built from the back and in Scirea/Figueroa/Carlos Alberto there is absolute top quality passers from deep.

Ignoring that level of ability from defence, but highlighting two wingers is very strange IMO.

 

[Theon]

Ronaldo will play his free role

Are you not using 2002 Ronaldo, who was much more of a goalscorer?

If you're going for the earlier version I think you may have a problem scoring here. You already have the playmaking version of Pele from 1970.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Surely you know that Ronaldinho cuts in constantly and Stoichkov did the same. They will play free roles and alternate between providing width and cutting in.

Your three midfielders will never be able to cut the passing option to Ronaldinho and Stoichkov. That is why Ronaldinho and Stoichkov will make sure that I dominate possession.

Like I said before though, Pele, Matthäus and Didi is at the very least equally as good as Zico, Falcao and Beckenbauer.

Didi is the only golden ball winning central midfielder in history, Matthäus is the only one that can be said to deserve one who didn't get it. Pele is of course the second best performer in WC history after Maradona - quite a few levels above everybody else in both teams.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Are you not using 2002 Ronaldo, who was much more of a goalscorer?

If you're going for the earlier version I think you may have a problem scoring here. You already have the playmaking version of Pele from 1970.

Stoichkov is one of the highest scoring wingers in WC history with 6 goals(1 assist)
Pele scored 4 and assisted 5
Ronaldo scored 4 and assisted 3 but was awarded the Golden Ball for his mesmerizing performances
Ronaldinho scored 2 and assisted 3
Didi scored 1 and assisted 3
Matthäus scored 4

This would average to what 3 goals per game and 2 assists per game? Bit of a daft point, it doesn't work like that - but if it did I would still have enough goals and assists.


Goals/assist scored aren't as important as the overall play and team cohesion.
Nevertheless I have goals and assists coming from all over the pitch. In a game against your defense that is exactly what you need, someone is going to get a goal-chance and I have the players capable of taking the chances whatever the chance may be.

Here is Ronaldo from 1998 and you will realize why he is perfect against strong defenses.

Spoiler

 

[Theon]

Pele didn't score 5

Where are you getting those stats? I'll have a look and post my players

 

[Annahnomoss]

He scored 4 while at the same time providing the record amount of 5 assists. Anyhow, the point remains that every player in the offense is capable of providing the one goal I need.

If I do score first there is little chance that you can come back after it.

It is important that you have players capable of providing assists and players who can score goals. But if all you needed to do to create the best team was to get the most goals Real Madrid/Chelsea/City wouldn't have had so much troubles.

 

[Theon]

My opponents really need the width from those wing-backs, but Carlos can't provide it against Stoichkov and Lahm and Alberto can't do it against Ronaldinho and Facchetti.

Not this nonsense again. It's a miracle any team lines up without wingers, let alone manage to win the World Cup that way

The first thing to remember is that Wingbacks get up and down the pitch all the time and 90% of runs result in no problems - we see this all the time watching sides like this play - they get back in position after tracking back and the game carries on. Attacking fullbacks wouldn't be such a common tactic if it was so vulnerable.

If either Roberto Carlos or Carlos Alberto do get caught out then playing a back five means there is very little risk of damage coming from it, Kohler could step out to Stoichkov and still leave Figueroa/Scirea in the middle, meanwhile Roberto Carlos is running back up the pitch and getting back into position which won't take more than 10 seconds.

You really cannot get a formation that offers better cover for attacking wingbacks than a back five like this - yet the opposition is trying to paint it as being especially vulerable. No chance.

Brehme managed to bomb up the flank in a 3-5-2 without wingers tracking back, as did Carlos himself at both Madrid and Brazil. For Milan Cafu and Maldini managed it in the diamond - without the security of an extra centre back as that formation just has a back four. Likewise with the Italian national team, they have played the same way and had no problems.

When you play these formations - which lots of Continental teams do - the wingbacks need to get forward, it isn't a rare thing at all and wouldn't happen if it was a liability. When you consider the calibre of wingback it is even more ridiculous that this is being presented as an issue - Roberto Carlos became the most valuable fullback in the world doing exactly this, he won the World Cup doing exactly this.

Carlos Alberto has a shout at being the best right back of all time - particularly in a World Cup draft, due to his exceptional performances captaining Brazil in 1970.. Yet a 22 year old Ronaldinho is apparently pinning him back?

 

[Annahnomoss]

If it is your desire to push up both Carlos and Alberto out wide to provide width against Stoichkov and Lahm on one side, Facchetti and Ronaldinho on the other - then that is your choice.

That just means Stoichkov and Ronaldinho will be allowed to counter freely all down the wing whenever I regain possession.

Carlos/Alberto won't receive many balls being positionally marked by Stoichkov and Ronaldinho who have the help of Facchetti/Lahm.

If you insist on trying to play the ball to them because you require that width, which you do, then that is just a bonus for me. Anyhow it is your team and your tactics so you decide what they do.

 

[Theon]

He scored 4 while at the same time providing the record amount of 5 assists. Anyhow, the point remains that every player in the offense is capable of providing the one goal I need.

If I do score first there is little chance that you can come back after it.

It is important that you have players capable of providing assists and players who can score goals. But if all you needed to do to create the best team was to get the most goals Real Madrid/Chelsea/City wouldn't have had so much troubles.

Are you not even going to edit it and correct it? And where did you get those stats for Didi?

No idea what you're trying to get at with the assists comment - Zico/Falcao/Beckenbauer is a fantastically creative and talented midfield.. Surely you agree with that. On the flanks Roberto Carlos and Carlos Alberto are two of the most devastating offence fullbacks in World Cup history.

Even Muller contributed 3 assists in 1970, in addition to his 10 goals.

 

[Annahnomoss]

You have lined up with a very defensive formation with 5 defenders, just 3 "midfielders" and 2 strikers. Pretty much a counter-attacking formation. You also claim you will get the width from Carlos/Alberto and you will also dominate possession against a 5 man midfield of brilliant passers.

I just don't see you winning the wing-battle nor the midfield battle.

 

[Theon]

Carlos/Alberto won't receive many balls being positionally marked by Stoichkov and Ronaldinho

Your views on this are really wrong and I actually don't think you believe what you're saying - you're ignoring what has actually been seen in countless teams that have played this way. The whole thing is mental.

And the idea that Carlos Alberto won't be involved much because he is being positionally marked by a 22 year old Ronaldinho is outrageous.

 

[Annahnomoss]

He is up against Ronaldinho and Facchetti, maybe the best left back in history. Of course it is easy to get an advantage if you remove a player from the opposition.

 

[Theon]

You have lined up with a very defensive formation with 5 defenders, just 3 "midfielders" and 2 strikers. Pretty much a counter-attacking formation. You also claim you will get the width from Carlos/Alberto and you will also dominate possession against a 5 man midfield of brilliant passers.

I just don't see you winning the wing-battle nor the midfield battle.

No, that is wrong again. And it most certainly isn't defensive when you actually look at the players. Really only someone trying to be deliberately misleading would try and use Carlos Alberto and Roberto Carlos as an indication of being defensive. They aren't 'defenders' here and will offer a huge threat in attack.

You're claim on the possession battle was once again very deceptive - trying to portray it as a simple '5 always beats 3' because you have wingers. You actually omitted someone with the technique and passing ability of Scirea when talking about possession. Very strange, and like I said very misrepresentative.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Facchetti is there, even if you remove him from your posts he will still be there. Of course it sounds great for you if we remove one of the best left-backs in history from his wing.

Also I have absolutely nothing against 5-2-1-2's in general. It is not a flawed formation and it can work if you replicate it well with the right sort of players.

So which sort of proven 5-2-1-2 have you gone for? Germany '90?

Also I have Bobby Moore, Maldini, Facchetti and Lahm in the defense as well as a sweeper keeper. That is why I don't bother answering regarding Scirea who admittedly is good in possession. Why? Lahm plays for one of the greatest possession club teams in history, Facchetti/Maldini were superb in possession and Bobby Moore was one of the very best defenders in history in that regards.

Anyhow mate, we need to relax a bit with the comments and wait for crowd participation. I think we have stated a lot of what we need to state.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I'm very surprised by how one-sided the voting is so far. I don't see any decisive advantage in either tactics or personnel for either team. I can't really buy this 5 vs 3 line in midfield that Annah's selling either! To view Stoichkov and in particular Ronaldinho as both keeping width and thereby pinning the two Carlos back, and also creating a numerical advantage in the middle of the park, is a big leap. Particularly when Pele is another one of the 5 in the middle.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I'm very surprised by how one-sided the voting is so far. I don't see any decisive advantage in either tactics or personnel for either team. I can't really buy this 5 vs 3 line in midfield that Annah's selling either! To view Stoichkov and in particular Ronaldinho as both keeping width and thereby pinning the two Carlos back, and also creating a numerical advantage in the middle of the park, is a big leap. Particularly when Pele is another one of the 5 in the middle.

To clarify as I by no means meant the above. Players have one job in the defense, and one job in the offense.

In the offense Ronaldinho and Stoichkov will be unmarked passing options meaning I can keep possession with ease as he just has 2 central midfielders and an AM centrally - exactly what I have too in Pele, Didi, Matthäus.

In the defense, Ronaldinho and Stoichkov will be defending in front of Facchetti and Lahm. Carlos and Alberto has to get the best of two players to provide the width he is expecting them too.

If you then assume Carlos and Alberto would still beat these two players and provide crosses after crosses - you must surely also think that for example Alberto alone can't stop say Facchetti and Ronaldinho.

It is just a natural effect of playing a 5-2-1-2, you have a solid defense, no bodies in the midfield and 2 strikers.

I have 5 players in the midfield instead in a 4-5-1 or 4-2-3-1 where do I have 1 player less than him? I have one less striker and one less defender.

 

[antohan]

Pele-Ronaldo-Ronaldinho will be quite similar to Rivaldo-Ronaldo-Ronaldinho.

There's an understatement! Plus Stoichkov to boot!

 

[Theon]

In the offense Ronaldinho and Stoichkov will be unmarked passing options

Why would your wingers be unmarked?

And Pat was spot on - The impression was that Stoichkov/Ronaldinho are not only dominating the midfield, but also somehow preventing Roberto Carlos and Carlos Alberto getting forward.

I think you have been OTT in a lot of your comments - Roberto Carlos splits opinion so I'm not going to argue his case again, I think he's absolutely top, top class in a role like this but its been debated a few times in this draft already.

Carlos Alberto though.. He deserves far more credit than you're giving him.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Why would your wingers be unmarked?

So who in your team prevents Didi/Pele/Matthäus to pass a ball to the wide area where you don't have any players? What happens when Ronaldinho leaves his wing and runs towards the midfield unmarked? Will Alberto man mark him to prevent the free passing option? Will that then not leave Facchetti completely free on the left side without Alberto there.

You can't keep the cake and eat it too. You are playing a defensive and counter-attacking set up - but you want to pretend it is also one of the best possession keeping tactics/formations as well.

Every formation and tactic has its weaknesses, just seems like you are playing yours off as the master formation at everything. Greatest for possession, defense, counter-attacks, wing-play.

I can state again that you have 1 more CB than me and 1 more striker. Therefore your defense will have one man more than mine, and you will have one more striker. However I have sacrificed that for a stronger wing-play and possession.

Whereas you have a stronger defense and counter.