World Class players under Alex Ferguson

LankyHoggie said:
Michael Carrick is a really interesting case.
He went from being underrated and overlooked by United supporters up until the 2012/2013 season, to being quite possibly the most overrated player in history by the same set of fans.

He was a very very good player at his best, great passing range, positionally exceptional, read the game great, however there are 3 things that are going against him, imo:

- His forgettable England career, which is nothing like Scholes’ case really, Paul Scholes was one of the first names on the team sheet for Hoddle, Paul Scholes was very good for England, although not as good as he was for United, for obvious reasons.
Carrick never really played well for England, but you could say the same about many others, so fair enough.

- No one outside of Manchester United supports would consider him world class, you won’t struggle to find even some hardcore Liverpool fans who will admit that Paul Scholes, Rooney, Ferdinand and the likes were world class at their best.

Its really nice that Pep said he’s great, Pep also said that Antonio Valencia was the best winger in the world prior to the CL 2011 final.
I’m sure Pep rates Carrick but I’m also sure he knows he’s not even remotely as good as his holding midfielder at the time was, or currently is.
Which is fine, both Rodri and Busquets are all time greats with Busquets being the best ever in his position.

- The biggest reason for me personally and why I actually believe Carrick would’ve been rated significantly lower if he played in today’s game:
He was poor under press, he played at a time where only the very best teams pressed, nowadays almost every team in the PL does.
Forget the Barcelona matches, I remember Poch’s Southampton coming to Old Trafford and playing us off the park with intense pressing, we managed to win that game but we were thoroughly outplayed and Carrick was poor in that match.

So in my opinion, although having played a big part in United’s success he was not a world class midfielder.
United of 06-13 wasn’t a team that needed to have the best midfield in the world to dominate the premier league, and reach 3 CL finals, we had a world class defense and world class attackers, we didn’t play good teams off the park away from home or even at home like Pep’s City and midfield oriented teams, we went to be solid and hit them on the break, and we did it exceptionally well.

So to me, he had too many flaws and several aspect of his career going against him to be in that discussion imo, the lack of physicality, lack of agility and occasional softness that cost us at times.
That doesn’t mean he wasn’t very very good, and a fantastic signing because he clearly was.
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COmpletely agree, very good for us, very intelligent and a good guy to boot. He really came into his own later on his career here. But as much as I liked him in the latter years, he wasnt world class.
 
Truly world class.

Rio
Vidic
Scholes
Giggs
Rooney
Ronaldo
Keane

The list for elite and a fraction off being the best of the best we've had is staggering though.
 
100% world class:

Cristiano
Scholes
Rio
Rooney (for a brief period when people said he was the 3rd best behind Messi and CR7)
Cantona

Debatable:
Vidic (not the best on the ball but didn't make mistakes)
Giggs
Beckham
Stam
VDS
Keane
 
Scottynaldinho said:
100% world class:

Cristiano
Scholes
Rio
Rooney (for a brief period when people said he was the 3rd best behind Messi and CR7)
Cantona

Debatable:
Vidic (not the best on the ball but didn't make mistakes)
Giggs
Beckham
Stam
VDS
Keane
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Vidic won more awards and was on more world and European teams than Ferdinand. If Ferdinand is 100% world class then Vidic was.
 


Was at a evening with Henrik Larsson, sir Alex pays tribute to him.
 
Scottynaldinho said:
100% world class:

Cristiano
Scholes
Rio
Rooney (for a brief period when people said he was the 3rd best behind Messi and CR7)
Cantona

Debatable:
Vidic (not the best on the ball but didn't make mistakes)
Giggs
Beckham
Stam
VDS
Keane
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All of those debatable ones were world class.

On a wider point, they all had the intelligence to perform and thrive in different eras/teams.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
The only United players on actual multiple Fifa World XIs voted are Ronaldo and Vidic yet you have various posts here without Vidic
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Fifa World 11s have huge Spanish League bias.

I'm not a United fan but Rooney, Ronaldo, Keane, Stam, Cantona, Ferdinand, Vidic, VDS, Schmeichel, RVN, Beckham were easily World Class.
 
TenonTen said:
Fifa World 11s have huge Spanish League bias.

I'm not a United fan but Rooney, Ronaldo, Keane, Stam, Cantona, Ferdinand, Vidic, VDS, Schmeichel, RVN, Beckham were easily World Class.
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I agree, Marcelo, Dani Alves, Ramos used to get in based on reputation, Iniesta too sometimes in later years. They were all great players, but felt like they were picked every year regardless.

But my point at the time was that even with that bias, Vidic was picked multiple times. 100% a world class defender.
 
There is a disturbing lack of Alex Buttner mentions in this thread.

On a more serious note: what to me would be interesting is people s thoughts on players who we assumed would be WC for us and failed. That list is probably disturbingly long and full of "big" names.
 
Redplane said:
There is a disturbing lack of Alex Buttner mentions in this thread.

On a more serious note: what to me would be interesting is people s thoughts on players who we assumed would be WC for us and failed. That list is probably disturbingly long and full of "big" names.
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Veron being of the most obvious ones.
 
Irish Bhoy said:
Veron being of the most obvious ones.
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For the quality of the fella? yes.
Yet not for his style and role. It was pretty much a rare purchase given how many passers and long balls players he already has in the team. Plus Veron wasn't the old guard number 8 of his youth, he was alerady becoming less and less dinamic and it was adding another similar player to the mix, with already having excellent ones in that role.It was kind of expected some sort of issue to actually be able to use him at his best version. All in all, he didn't backup his high price and his huge name in those days, yet he didn't do that bad also.
 
Fobal said:
For the quality of the fella? yes.
Yet not for his style and role. It was pretty much a rare purchase given how many passers and long balls players he already has in the team. Plus Veron wasn't the old guard number 8 of his youth, he was alerady becoming less and less dinamic and it was adding another similar player to the mix, with already having excellent ones in that role.It was kind of expected some sort of issue to actually be able to use him at his best version. All in all, he didn't backup his high price and his huge name in those days, yet he didn't do that bad also.
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His technical ability was so high that he wasn't far off Iniesta in terms of pure technical ability. That's how naturally gifted he was, technically, in my opinion.

I think the intensity and fast paced nature of EPL football, he struggled with. He was used to a more sedate paced tempo in Italy and he struggled to adjust in my opinion. Sensational talent, massive let down considering yee paid 28.1 million, if memory serves me.

Probably also struggled with size of Utd and the demands to win every game.
 
Irish Bhoy said:
His technical ability was so high that he wasn't far off Iniesta in terms of pure technical ability. That's how naturally gifted he was, technically, in my opinion.

I think the intensity and fast paced nature of EPL football, he struggled with. He was used to a more sedate paced tempo in Italy and he struggled to adjust in my opinion. Sensational talent, massive let down considering yee paid 28.1 million, if memory serves me.

Probably also struggled with size of Utd and the demands to win every game.
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I recall thinking when he came to us that it was almost unfair having him, Keane, Scholes, Beckham, Giggs, RVN in the same team. I thought he would be sensational for us.No doubting his ability.
 
Can't believe there was a post on this thread that Said it was debatable whether Keane was world class.

He's probably the most nailed on other than Ronaldo for me, performed at that level for longer than anyone else during Sir Alex,s time.
 
AdNani said:
Can't believe there was a post on this thread that Said it was debatable whether Keane was world class.

He's probably the most nailed on other than Ronaldo for me, performed at that level for longer than anyone else during Sir Alex,s time.
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Nothing is hard to believe on here!
 
Non negotiable:

Ronaldo
Scholes
Rooney
Schmeichel
Van Der Sar
Vidic
Rio
Keane
Beckham
Ruud
Stam
Hughes
Robin Van Persie

Debatable:
Giggs
Carrick
Bruce
Gary Neville
Cantona
De Gea
Cole
Yorke
Evra
Irwin
 
The Brown Bull said:
I recall thinking when he came to us that it was almost unfair having him, Keane, Scholes, Beckham, Giggs, RVN in the same team. I thought he would be sensational for us.No doubting his ability.
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In signing Veron, I assume Fergusons thinking was we'll continue to win plenty of EPL titles with Veron added, but he will alsi give the team that extra bit of technical ability to win another European Cup or 2.

Yee had some team, no doubt with the players u mentioned.

That midfield 4 of Keane, Scholes Beckham and Giggs was a phenomenal midfield. One of, if not, the greatest midfield 4 in EPL history.

Keane, for what it's worth, is my joint favourite player of all time ( with Henrik Larsson ) Obviously being a Celtic fan and being Irish, those 2 are kinda self explanatory.

Yee had such an array of talent in that period. Stam, Vidic, Ferdinand also.

Yee played some brilliant football and had phenomenal players in terms of mentality and desire to win. Your clashes with Arsenal from 1998 to 2004 were the stuff of legend, high quality games and proper hatred.

We actually had similar with Rangers in that period, we got to a Uefa cup final in 2003 and only lost after extra time to Jose Mourinhos Porto 3-2, Larsson scored 2 absolutely cracking headers, Porto won champs league following season. The quality of old firm games was very high - obviously not as high as Man Utd v Arsenal but exceptionally high for Scottish standards. I was fortunate enough to be at pretty much every old firm whether at Celtic Park, Ibrox or Hampden. Rangers had both the De Boer brothers in their team. Great days, I miss them.

I also Miss Utd v Arsenal games and Barca v Real Madrid when Pep, Jose, Ronaldo and Messi were there. Those El Classicos were unforgettable, extreme quality and proper nastiness and hatred. The good old days.

Really hope a massive rivalry emerges in EPL. Not sure we will ever see the quality and pure hatred of the Arsenal v Utd games again though. Some of the players on both teams would be in the conversation for getting in to an all time EPL team.
 
Irish Bhoy said:
His technical ability was so high that he wasn't far off Iniesta in terms of pure technical ability. That's how naturally gifted he was, technically, in my opinion.

I think the intensity and fast paced nature of EPL football, he struggled with. He was used to a more sedate paced tempo in Italy and he struggled to adjust in my opinion. Sensational talent, massive let down considering yee paid 28.1 million, if memory serves me.

Probably also struggled with size of Utd and the demands to win every game.
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It's more about the issue of too many players with almost the same type of style.
There was no real place for him and people gives too much importance to Leagues, yet it's rarely the case, always has more to do with the team and coach you land.
Remember that he came from an Italian Serie A of constant pressing, always trying to force rivals to comitt a mistake, his teams in Italy didn't played a low tempo style, way less those frantic Bielsa's NT.

In fact on contrast, that United was more keen to not loose the ball than the Italian Seria A of those days, to attack with great passing and many people involved, yet Veron was just too similar to other players already in the team with roles and spaces where they were already accostume to move.
Finally any Argie player deals with the insanity it's argie football that demands to win no matter what team, plus he played in the NT that is just beyond ridiculous that sort of pression.

He was already a more lazy version, he wasn't really a mid with equall qualities regarding defending and attacking and he didn't add like the fella you've mentioned, Iniesta, a great dribbling, at least like when he was younger with more pace and long strides a lo Tonino Cerezo, that version from 2001 was another Veron.
 
Fobal said:
It's more about the issue of too many players with almost the same type of style.
There was no real place for him and people gives too much importance to Leagues, yet it's rarely the case, always has more to do with the team and coach you land.
Remember that he came from an Italian Serie A of constant pressing, always trying to force rivals to comitt a mistake, his teams in Italy didn't played a low tempo style, way less those frantic Bielsa's NT.

In fact on contrast, that United was more keen to not loose the ball than the Italian Seria A of those days, to attack with great passing and many people involved, yet Veron was just too similar to other players already in the team with roles and spaces where they were already accostume to move.
Finally any Argie player deals with the insanity it's argie football that demands to win no matter what team, plus he played in the NT that is just beyond ridiculous that sort of pression.

He was already a more lazy version, he wasn't really a mid with equall qualities regarding defending and attacking and he didn't add like the fella you've mentioned, Iniesta, a great dribbling, at least like when he was younger with more pace and long strides a lo Tonino Cerezo, that version from 2001 was another Veron.
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The constant pressing in Italt only happened in final 3rd of thr pitch. You had as much time as u wanted up until about30 yards from oppositions goal so I strongly disagree with u there.

I disagree also, he was too similar to other midfielders, he was languid but had the best technical ability of any United midfielder.

I think it was obvious he struggled with the demands at United, his performances were so poor. He was even struggling with simple 10/15 yard passes which were getting intercepted.
 
Depends what if you mean world class for his era or all eras because the latter is only a small group of players.
 
Irish Bhoy said:
The constant pressing in Italt only happened in final 3rd of thr pitch. You had as much time as u wanted up until about30 yards from oppositions goal so I strongly disagree with u there.

I disagree also, he was too similar to other midfielders, he was languid but had the best technical ability of any United midfielder.

I think it was obvious he struggled with the demands at United, his performances were so poor. He was even struggling with simple 10/15 yard passes which were getting intercepted.
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We are not going to agree man, I dunno think either at that level and with the players involved we can talk about a clear gap between them technically. Yet there would always be gap in terms on how those already there were accostume to their roles and how a welll oiled machine United was at that moment while the new fella with a very very high profile goes to menace some roles without actually being that different in his atributes (mainly a launcher and bit reckless at that point due to his prior stage in Italy). He would struggle more with the tag and money over himself while still trying to find out what was what he was suppose to add there than United perse.
 
Fobal said:
We are not going to agree man, I dunno think either at that level and with the players involved we can talk about a clear gap between them technically. Yet there would always be gap in terms on how those already there were accostume to their roles and how a welll oiled machine United was at that moment while the new fella with a very very high profile goes to menace some roles without actually being that different in his atributes (mainly a launcher and bit reckless at that point due to his prior stage in Italy). He would struggle more with the tag and money over himself while still trying to find out what was what he was suppose to add there than United perse.
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We aren't going to agree mate. Total respect your opinion but respectfully disagree.

for ne, It's was a big change culturally in terms of intensity and pace of premship compared to Italy. He struggled with it, and nobody will convince me otherwise that he didn't struggle with the size of the club. United at that time was developing in to arguably the biggest / second biggest club in world.

Veron simply struggled with everything, probably struggled with language and weather also.

Top, top talent though. Phenomenal technical ability.

So.etimes, no matter how gifted a player is, they struggle when going to a different country. It happens regularly.
 
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