What the hell is this thread? My word......
With Sancho & Camavinga in, do we soon surpass Liverpool & City's squad?
- Thread starter luke511
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It's become an absolute mess because people don't read properly before spouting an aggressive opinion fuelled by ignorance. I'd delete it if I had the choice.
Mate ffs, if you're topping the tackle charts on both the amount and success rate in Europe it's a pretty solid indication that you excel at tackling, then you combine that with actually watching the player then you can make a fair call as to how good they are defensively, again Wan Bissaka a perfect example. Your stupidity makes my brain hurt.
I know we've been sniffing around Sancho for a while, but Camavinga? Is there something new I dont know about linking him to us? Last I read Zidane has his little french paws around him in Rennes
Mohamed Bouhafsi has said that we're closely monitoring his situation, which translates to we want him and know how good he is but Real Madrid have first dibs!
Again, you're conflating making lots of tackles with being a great defensive player. He doesn't have the highest tackle success rate in Europe either. And if you did watch him you'd know he isn't a great defensive player because he doesn't play in a positionally disciplined role and he's quite rash. He's a very frequent tackler, but he only has to tackle anywhere near as much as he does because of the way Rennes play and his lack of experience which is reflected in his relatively low success rate. It's an entire world away from "Rooney winning the golden boot at 17".
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And just for reference, in the league this season Camavinga attempted 6.1 tackles per game with a success rate of 69%. Even someone like Fomba has a higher success at 75% not to mention Gueye (73%) and Girroto (70%).
In the Premier League Ricardo Pereira is at 70%, Ndidi is at 74% and Wan-Bissaka is at 84%. He's only marginally better than Declan Rice (67%) who is clumsy and positionally unsound.
In the Premier League Ricardo Pereira is at 70%, Ndidi is at 74% and Wan-Bissaka is at 84%. He's only marginally better than Declan Rice (67%) who is clumsy and positionally unsound.
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To be fair Wan Bissaka is one of the best defensive RBs I’ve seen and he has plenty of time to develop so it’s unfair to compare him to Cole.
Also it depends on the player with regards to defensive midfielders making tackles. Ideally you want the job done by positioning as that generally is a longer lasting ability into the 30s but it depends on the system you play in. Most DMs though screen the back 4 by positioning
I wasn't saying he should be as good as Cole right now, I was pointing out that making lots of tackles doesn't make you great defensively.
Same point I was making really. The top defensive midfielders don't make loads of tackles.
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Fair enough but equally it doesn’t make you a bad defender.
Was agreeing with you essentially but also highlighting that some DMs still do a great job by being proactive in their tackling and gaining possession but it’s rarer these days.
I like Camavinga a lot, but I completely agree with you and respect your patience in explaining your points without resorting to insults like some have done towards you when you've been mostly correct in everything you've said.
And what you've said doesn't mean Camavinga is not going to be that great player some believe he can be, but midfielders are going to take time to develop and he's no different, this is his first professional season ffs. We can see the attributes, qualities, etc. He's definitely going to be a solid player, but it's still too early and people put WAY too much emphasis on his performance against PSG. He's been rated the second best talent in world football recently, and while I think he's great I have to wonder how silly or correct that will look in 5-10 years; it's just too soon to tell.
First team wise we're a CB, DM, RW and probably STK away from seriously competing for the EPL. Reserves wise we need another RW and a RB as well. Meanwhile Ole is more suited to be a director then a manager. His plan makes sense and his heart is set on Manchester United but he struggles in terms of tactics
Regarding Camavinga I haven't followed him enough to give an opinion. However United is already well stocked with kids (Laird, Greenwood, Mejbri, Chong, Henderson, Tuanzebe, Dalot and James). What it lacks are leaders who would make sure that these kids don't turn into the next Lingards or worse still Ravel Morrisons.
Regarding Camavinga I haven't followed him enough to give an opinion. However United is already well stocked with kids (Laird, Greenwood, Mejbri, Chong, Henderson, Tuanzebe, Dalot and James). What it lacks are leaders who would make sure that these kids don't turn into the next Lingards or worse still Ravel Morrisons.
You think 69% is a relatively low success rate? When he's 16/17 playing as a CDM in a men's league? I personally think he's a very good player defensively by watching him with my own eyes, especially for his age, and you don't, fair enough end of.
1) It's not the highest success rate in europe (far from it) and 2) it's not high at all for a defensive midfielder.
Nice work chopping my quote up, he's 2% off Kante and these numbers are coming from a 16/17 year old, what is the average success rate for a top league defensive midfielder if you don't mind me asking to back up the call that it's a "relatively low success rate"? Successful tackles per game/90 was what I was mainly talking about, which involves the success rate that you've become so focused on (success rate*total attempted tackles), and that's the statistic that Camavinga excels at which goes back to my main point back on Thursday:
And your reply to that:
So you've gone from saying successful tackles per game isn't a great measure, to saying that the success rate is a good measure, I feel like that's a contradiction when success rate*total attempted tackles per game = successful tackles per game
I chopped up the relevant bit of your quote for brevity. And you said he has the highest success rate in Europe. He does not. Making lots of tackles and getting run past a lot is a bad trait for a central midfielder. Making the most successful tackles is not the same as having a high tackle success.
If I look for a pilot I look for someone who sticks the landing every flight, not someone who flies lots but crashes 1/3rd of the time. The reason he gets ran past so often is that he gets into positions where making a tackle is the wrong call, because he's young and rash.
If I look for a pilot I look for someone who sticks the landing every flight, not someone who flies lots but crashes 1/3rd of the time. The reason he gets ran past so often is that he gets into positions where making a tackle is the wrong call, because he's young and rash.
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But can't you see that the statistic he tops in Europe involves the success rate as well? I used the quote " if you're topping the tackle charts on both the amount and success rate in Europe" it is sloppy English but it still relates back to my original point, successful tackles per 90 being a great measure, as it is them multiplied together. You've ended up contradicting yourself by using the success rate against Camavinga when it's a variable of the statistic that he excels at the most out of any midfielder in Europe.
If we could buy those two, we'd have one of the best squads in the world alongside Juve, Barca, Bayern, Liverpool, Taylor Swift and Manchester City.
This doesn't make much sense and it seems a lot like you're trying to bend an argument to anything because you've realised his tackling success rate isn't the highest in Europe.
Player A scored 6 penalties and missed 1 in 38 games, Player B scored 8 penalties and missed 4 in 38 games.
Player B has a higher successful penalties per 90, who is the better penalty taker?
No I've known and I've been saying all along that he topped the successful tackles per 90 chart for midfielders and I've even quoted myself back from Thursday saying so, I'm not bending the argument at all. I've been saying how successful tackles per 90 is a "great measure" for how good a player is defensively, something that takes the attempted tackles and success rate into account, and you responded saying "It's absolutely not". Now you've ended up using the success rate against Camavinga which is a contradiction, it makes all the sense.
I'm sorry but enough of this revisionism. You said "you're topping the tackle charts on both the amount and success rate". Two individual things. He has very high amounts of tackles but is not high at all on success rate.
And this still doesn't mean that you can combine those stats and it means they don't matter individually. A player who only has to make 4 tackles but wins 3 of them and cuts off the other two without having to dive in is better than the player who has to make 6 tackles and wins 4.
Quantity is not substitute for quality.
And this still doesn't mean that you can combine those stats and it means they don't matter individually. A player who only has to make 4 tackles but wins 3 of them and cuts off the other two without having to dive in is better than the player who has to make 6 tackles and wins 4.
Quantity is not substitute for quality.
Back to topic,
Putting Camavinga who is an unknown aside, Sancho would definitely improves our squad just because we barely have any natural right winger. Did very well at Bundesliga. Would be interesting to see how he would handle the EPL's faster pace and physical challenges.
Will that be enough to surpass City and Pool squad?
= No way, not even close.
The only edges we have are GKs and Midfield depth.
EDIT: At least not yet as our younger core and key players are still maturing. And theirs are ageing and seemingly not like their past seasons best.
Putting Camavinga who is an unknown aside, Sancho would definitely improves our squad just because we barely have any natural right winger. Did very well at Bundesliga. Would be interesting to see how he would handle the EPL's faster pace and physical challenges.
Will that be enough to surpass City and Pool squad?
= No way, not even close.
The only edges we have are GKs and Midfield depth.
EDIT: At least not yet as our younger core and key players are still maturing. And theirs are ageing and seemingly not like their past seasons best.
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Ignoring systems, Best 11?
United x City
(4:7 or 5:6)
Sane/Rashford -- Aguero -- Sterling
Pogba/Bruno -- KDB
Fernandinho
Shaw(?) -- Laporte -- Maguire -- Walker
DDG
United x Pool
(3:8 or 4:7 or 5:6)
Mane/Rashford -- Firmino/Martial -- Salah
Pogba -- Bruno
Fabinho
Robertson -- VVD -- Maguire - TAA
Alisson
Okay, those are somewhat interesting.(4:7 or 5:6)
Sane/Rashford -- Aguero -- Sterling
Pogba/Bruno -- KDB
Fernandinho
Shaw(?) -- Laporte -- Maguire -- Walker
DDG
United x Pool
(3:8 or 4:7 or 5:6)
Mane/Rashford -- Firmino/Martial -- Salah
Pogba -- Bruno
Fabinho
Robertson -- VVD -- Maguire - TAA
Alisson
I know you struggle with analogies but it's like using the conversion rate against a striker who's scored the most goals in Europe, it's stupid, it's obvious he's a good goalscorer. When Camavinga's tackle success rate is 69% and someone like Kante is 71%, the margins are too insignificant to use against him anyway.
I think you should stop insulting me personally. It does you and your arguments no favours.
There are a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you only need to compare Messi to Ronaldo to see that often raw goals doesn't show who is the better player and that is the most obvious example. Wassam Ben-Yedder has a higher Gp90 than Benzema or Lukaku, that doesn't make him a better striker than them. Playing in a league where the style features lots of tackling is going to result in players making more tackles than they would in other leagues.
Secondly, scoring goals is pretty much the defining hallmark of a strikers success, all the great strikers by and large score lots of goals. Making tackles isn't the defining hallmark of a defensive midfielder, the best defensive midfielders generally do not make lots of tackles. What they don't do is be beaten frequently, something Camavinga allows to happen to him at a rate twice as frequently as Busquets or Kante.
You've said it yourself, our squad getting a year older is a big plus, whereas it's the big negative for our two rivals. I've tried breaking it down by position comparatively, it's a lot closer in some positions than others, but our potential attack has been underrated a lot in this thread and you can see our options aren't as thin as they seem.
GK
MU: De Gea, Romero, Henderson
L: Alisson, Adrian
MC: Ederson, Bravo
LB
MU: Shaw, Williams
L: Robertson, Milner
MC: Mendy, Zinchenko
CB
MU: Maguire, Bailly, Lindelof, Tuanzebe
L: VVD, Gomez, Lovren, Matip
MC: Laporte, Stones, Otamendi
RB
MU: Wan Bissaka, Baird
L: Alexander Arnold, Gomez?
MC: Walker, Cancelo
CDM
MU: Camavinga, Fred, McTominay
L: Fabinho, Henderson, Milner
MC: Fernandinho, Rodri
CM
MU: Pogba, Fred, McTominay, Bruno, Camavinga
L: Wijnaldum, Henderson, Keita, Milner
MC: De Bruyne, Gundogan, Rodri
CAM
MU: Bruno, Pogba
L: Chamberlain, Keita
MC: B. Silva, De Bruyne, Foden
LW
MU: Rashford, Sancho, James, Martial
L: Mane, Chamberlain
MC: Sterling, Sane (verge of leaving)
CF
MU: Martial, Greenwood, Rashford
L: Firmino, Origi
MC: Aguero, Jesus
RW
MU: Sancho, James, Greenwood
L: Salah, Shaqiri, Minamino, Mane
MC: B. Silva, Mahrez, Sterling, Sane (verge of leaving)
Camavinga dribbled past figure is very close to Fabinho's, does that mean Fabinho is beaten frequently as well thus rendering him a worse player defensively? No it doesn't. Camavinga's dribbled past stat is smaller than Casemiro's, does that mean Casemiro is a worse player defensively? No it doesn't. Picking stats as you see fit doesn't play out well when you don't take the whole picture/average into consideration.
So you're saying Ronaldo isn't an incredible goalscorer because of his conversion rate compared to Messi? Incorrect. Goals per 90 is used by all the statisticians as the most honest figure when it comes to goalscoring so you're going down a rabbit hole you don't want to go down. If a player has the highest goals per 90 in Europe's top leagues, regardless of the team, it's pretty conclusive you excel at scoring goals. Exactly the same thing with successful tackles per 90 and tackling.
Lastly, using the league average for tackles comparatively to other leagues as a reason why it's not as impressive doesn't hold much strength either. It's like saying Ronaldo or Messi's goal tallies aren't as impressive because it was in the La Liga, the league that has the most goals per game by average. No one says that.
I think you've chosen two poor examples there. Firstly, Fabinho hasn't been anywhere near as good defensively as he was last season, no and Casemiro plays as the lone stopper in an attacking team who play an aggressive forward press (unlike the Rennes team who have both Grenier and Bourigeaud).
Which is why Javier Hernandez is a better goal scorer than Alan Shearer? Just like any stat it has its flaws based on team strength, play-style, player role etc. Just for that one stat alone you can see a cursory glance sees that it favours players who come on late in the game for strong teams over players who are starters for weaker teams (Hernandez, OGS being obvious examples).
I'm not saying they're irrelevant, I'm saying that they should be viewed in context. For instance it's clearly much easier to score a high volume of goals at Man City than it is at Southampton or Norwich, which is why even though Jesus has scored a similar number of goals to Pukki (at a much better Gp90 too), one has been considered to have a good season while the other one has had a poor season (Mo Salah and Danny Ings are another comparison).
If you play in a league or a team where lots of tackles are common (Like Ligue 1 and Rennes) then you're going to have high tackling numbers. It's why you have to be careful of scoring numbers in the German league when judging players for instance, it's a high scoring league across the board.
I don't have the energy to reply to 3 posts that say largely the same thing, but I think my reply to your first post is largely applicable to those three as well.
Oh you rewrote the post and then deleted it 3 times rather than posting 4 replies, apologies.
Yes I rushed my response then edited that, then decided to edit out the point ending in 'good one' to try and cut out the snottiness, a literal mess. The point about Hernandez and Shearer is very inconsistent because over Shearer's career there will have been 12 month period's/season's where his goals per 90 would've been much superior to Hernandez's. I see Hernandez's goal per 90 is 0.47 over his career and Shearer's was 0.59*? But I agree with you, one stat alone doesn't tell the full story, all I'm saying if you top a main performance statistic across Europe's top leagues, it's a good indication. Let's just call it a day, I'm done with the arguing
*Edit: Premierleague.com is per match, not per 90, trying to find out Shearer's correct per 90 stat now
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Hernandez was 142 minutes (at least until his stint with West Ham, no idea what it is now) and Shearer was 147 minutes per goal.
And again, the problem simply boils down to the fact that making lots of tackles isn't always a good thing, in the same way making lots of long passes isn't (where as scoring obviously is, unless you play for Pep Guardiola). Defending is primarily about risk management, you know the old saying about the attacker only having to get lucky once where as the defender has to get lucky every time. There are numerous ways to prevent the threat of a player on the ball in football, tackles, interceptions, cuttings off aggressive passing angles etc. and arguably tackling is the most high risk of those options in a position where you don't want to take risks. If your defensive midfielder is taken out of the game by a failed tackle then your xGA will skyrocket because the attacker is suddenly against your exposed backline. The reason Camavinga makes relatively few interceptions is because he dives in early and aggressively, which is fine (and expected of a young player) if you have a holding player behind him to sweep up, but not as the deepest of the midfield (which seems to be why they were looking at Nzonzi, although I'm not sure he's the answer).
And again, the problem simply boils down to the fact that making lots of tackles isn't always a good thing, in the same way making lots of long passes isn't (where as scoring obviously is, unless you play for Pep Guardiola). Defending is primarily about risk management, you know the old saying about the attacker only having to get lucky once where as the defender has to get lucky every time. There are numerous ways to prevent the threat of a player on the ball in football, tackles, interceptions, cuttings off aggressive passing angles etc. and arguably tackling is the most high risk of those options in a position where you don't want to take risks. If your defensive midfielder is taken out of the game by a failed tackle then your xGA will skyrocket because the attacker is suddenly against your exposed backline. The reason Camavinga makes relatively few interceptions is because he dives in early and aggressively, which is fine (and expected of a young player) if you have a holding player behind him to sweep up, but not as the deepest of the midfield (which seems to be why they were looking at Nzonzi, although I'm not sure he's the answer).