As long as the Glazers are still running things even the resurrection of Sir Matt wouldn’t change this “Reign of Error”
Will our next managerial appointment be any different to the last four?
- Thread starter sullydnl
- Start date
If I was in charge my thinking would be:
- Assuming we don't already have an ideal successor to Ole in mind, we have to assess the candidates based on their both their quality as managers but also how they align with the vision of "fast, fluid, attacking football" the club has espoused. That assessment should be carried out by the likes of Murtough and Fletcher with input from whoever else they like from the football side of the club.
- Once we have a shortlist of ideal candidates and order them by preference, we would contact them to ascertain whether they want the job and whether they will be free either now or at the end of the season.
- If the highest preference candidate who wants the job is available now, you get them now. If they're only available at the end of the season, you agree to bring them in at the end of the season. You don't sacrifice the best candidate because they aren't available immediately.
- What happens to Solskjaer then depends on the above. If the ideal candidate is available now, Solskjaer goes asap. If the ideal candidate isn't available now, you have to either stick with Solskjaer until the end of the season or appoint an interim manager. You would also need to assess who the best interim option available would be.
- All of that would perhaps mean there is logic in intending to give Solskjaer the next three games. It effectively gives you a timeframe (between now and the international break) in which to assess, contact and decide on who the next appointment would be. And it also gives Solskjaer a chance to prove whether (as with Mourinho) an interim manager is needed or (as with Van Gaal) things might stabilise enough for an interim manager to be unnecessary, should the ideal candidate not be available until the end of the season.
If I'm doing my best to be positive (take note @MvG) I could argue that maybe our current actions are in line with that process. And that maybe following that process is the optimal way of making the decision from this point. And maybe that selection process led by more football-orientated people with current positions at the club and a more holistic view of what fits our working proccesses will mean things are different this time. A lot of maybes.
In a way I don't care which manager we appoint, because all the names mentioned have their merits. What I'm more interested in is whether we can see evidence that we've learned anything from the way we go about selecting them, so the candidate we end up with actually is the one most likely to succeed.
- Assuming we don't already have an ideal successor to Ole in mind, we have to assess the candidates based on their both their quality as managers but also how they align with the vision of "fast, fluid, attacking football" the club has espoused. That assessment should be carried out by the likes of Murtough and Fletcher with input from whoever else they like from the football side of the club.
- Once we have a shortlist of ideal candidates and order them by preference, we would contact them to ascertain whether they want the job and whether they will be free either now or at the end of the season.
- If the highest preference candidate who wants the job is available now, you get them now. If they're only available at the end of the season, you agree to bring them in at the end of the season. You don't sacrifice the best candidate because they aren't available immediately.
- What happens to Solskjaer then depends on the above. If the ideal candidate is available now, Solskjaer goes asap. If the ideal candidate isn't available now, you have to either stick with Solskjaer until the end of the season or appoint an interim manager. You would also need to assess who the best interim option available would be.
- All of that would perhaps mean there is logic in intending to give Solskjaer the next three games. It effectively gives you a timeframe (between now and the international break) in which to assess, contact and decide on who the next appointment would be. And it also gives Solskjaer a chance to prove whether (as with Mourinho) an interim manager is needed or (as with Van Gaal) things might stabilise enough for an interim manager to be unnecessary, should the ideal candidate not be available until the end of the season.
If I'm doing my best to be positive (take note @MvG) I could argue that maybe our current actions are in line with that process. And that maybe following that process is the optimal way of making the decision from this point. And maybe that selection process led by more football-orientated people with current positions at the club and a more holistic view of what fits our working proccesses will mean things are different this time. A lot of maybes.
In a way I don't care which manager we appoint, because all the names mentioned have their merits. What I'm more interested in is whether we can see evidence that we've learned anything from the way we go about selecting them, so the candidate we end up with actually is the one most likely to succeed.
Ha, that's a fair point.
But good or not, they're who our new manager will have to work with. So from that POV it makes sense for the selection of the new manager to be led by them, on the basis of not only who is the best but who fits in with the overall vision (if there is one) for the club. They should be the ones making the call.
Better that than Ferguson (who doesn't and shouldn't have an active role in these processes any more) or non-football board members.
Define what is fast, fluid, attacking football? Its such a blanket nonsense statement that could mean anything. Man City and Chelsea have completely different styles but Chelsea still play fast fluid attacking football. They are top of the league and have scored more goals than City so far.This is the kind of sht that is the reason where we are. The Man Utd way - whats that/ Umm I dunno play youth and stuff. Fast attacking football - whats that - umm you know attacking and sht. It means nothing. This is like when companies start with the whole Family atmosphere and we are all one team and all sorts of blanket statements that mean jack sht because no one knows what it means.
In answer to the question. No it wont be any different. But the reason is that we have so many ex players and old school board members wondering about with loads of influence trying to define what we should do based on romance and blanket statements and basically nonsense.
In answer to the question. No it wont be any different. But the reason is that we have so many ex players and old school board members wondering about with loads of influence trying to define what we should do based on romance and blanket statements and basically nonsense.
Unfortunately, power is like a drug and SAF seems to be an addict.
Now that he has recovered from his health scare (I wish no ill-will on the man by the way, I was glad when he overcame that brain problem) he seems to be heavily involved in decision making at the club again. Because of the power he built up in the 90s and 2000's I don't think there is anyone big enough at the club who dare tell him to just be a fan and I suppose that whilst he continues to be on the payroll, his argument would be: why should he?
I actually feel sorry for his wife. She probably hoped that after his resignation, certainly after his recent illness, he would be able to just step back, but like I said: once an addict, always an addict. Realistically, the only people who might be able to stand up to him (the Glazers) probably don't want to because right now they probably think Sir Alex, with Ole as his puppet, is probably they best (and cheapest way) to get a top-four slot, which is really all they care about.
I agree it should be led by them, and I hope for their sake it is. Even so I can't see any signs that we actually have a vision. I'd rather see a total overhaul at the club. A new CEO, DOF, and manager. All qualified with the right experience. And preferably not related to United in any way in the past. Hiring old legends just doesn't work 99%. It's an utopia at this point though.
Sick of all the false dawns mate.
At this point, I'm not sure if Pep even would succeed here. I'll only be happy when we win things. These days it feels like our highs are only when we change managers or during the transfer windows.
Which is as it should be. Ole isn’t the only problem as such because we all know he doesn’t do the tactics really. All 4 need to go, and if we’re getting Conte in then we need all the coaches attached to him who made his previous successes happen. There’s no point just swapping Ole for Conte and leaving the other 3 sat where they are.
No, No and it will be an erratic decision made by people who don't know what they're doing.
John Murtough became technical director in March, since then with Ole we haven't played anywhere close to fluid, fast attacking football. In fact, in all of Ole's 3 years in charge there's never been a consistent 4 games of fast, fluid attacking football. But he did get a new 3 year contract.
The people that run our club wouldn't know fluid, fast attacking football if it smacked them over the head with a brick.
Nice words from Murtough, but in my opinion, its bollocks.
Do we currently play this style of football that he talks about? No we definitely do not.
But why not, when we have players such as Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood etc etc.
Our play is often, slow, laborious, predictable and cautious, and we play with two deep MFs that don't shift the ball forward quickly or imaginatively.
Also, if there is any truth to the short list of new managers, Conte, Zidane, Ten Hag, Pochettino, they seem like a right old mixed bag to me, and the word continuity doesn't spring to mind.
We might luck our way to a good coach this time in Antonio Conte (or Ten Hag, who would have other risks).
Van Gaal is a good coach - but was way too possession obsessed, risk averse, had multiple fall outs at club level where his ways caused problems and has weird transfer targets where the quality of squad was just not good. Won the FA Cup at least though.
Moyes was never suited to a big club and never of the required level. Same with Ole.
Mourinho had a few fallout by the time we brought him in, and had been on the decline, while everyone knew 3 seasons in he tends to collapse. Still though, won a few trophies, finished 2nd with 81 points, lost in the FA Cup final before the collapse.
With Conte, you have a proven recent winner in multiple big leagues, proven to be an excellent coach wherever he's been, and we have a very high quality squad that he'd walk in to, so his job is to coach it to be on par with expectations for each of those players. Just doing that would have us challenging for trophies.
Van Gaal is a good coach - but was way too possession obsessed, risk averse, had multiple fall outs at club level where his ways caused problems and has weird transfer targets where the quality of squad was just not good. Won the FA Cup at least though.
Moyes was never suited to a big club and never of the required level. Same with Ole.
Mourinho had a few fallout by the time we brought him in, and had been on the decline, while everyone knew 3 seasons in he tends to collapse. Still though, won a few trophies, finished 2nd with 81 points, lost in the FA Cup final before the collapse.
With Conte, you have a proven recent winner in multiple big leagues, proven to be an excellent coach wherever he's been, and we have a very high quality squad that he'd walk in to, so his job is to coach it to be on par with expectations for each of those players. Just doing that would have us challenging for trophies.
Excellent post. If the board woke up on Monday suddenly shocked because of a result many of us thought was coming (I thought we'd get pumped 4-0 for example), and suddenly lost faith in Ole because of that, I'm afraid it doesn't look as though there is a deep, confident and well understood plan being developed from the top of the football club downwards. It again appears reactive. Why did it take this result for them to realise that something was wrong, and if they did, why was Ole still in place for the game?
I agree, we don't.
However you could possibly argue that our transfer dealings and squad building have been in line with this? Even in Ronaldo's case, at 36 he still doesn't lack for pace.
In which case the new manager would still have to be in line with that idea. i.e. the best person to get the most out of a fast and attack-orientated group of players rather than a more conservative manager (as Mourinho was, for example).
I made a joke about it earlier, but reading you point: serious question: should the club consider sacking its most famous living manager from his role as club Ambassador (on £1m* a year) because until they do, he will always be casting a shadow over whomever is in the managers role, in the foreseeable future.
This is why Conte is probably the preferable choice right now, he is probably strong-willed enough to ignore the past and to tell the great man to just leave him alone. Any younger manager, or anyone with links to Sir Alex and his golden age will never be able to develop a new era for MUFC.
*People will come straight back at me and say £1,000,000 a year is nothing to Manchester United, but if it is true that Sir Alex phoned Ronaldo and persuaded him to return on half a million a week! then Sir Alex's continued employment by the club has cost Utd. much, much more than his own personal 'Ambassadors' salary.
P.S. Please don't try to tell me that the Ronaldo signing will pay for itself, through 'shirt sales', that is a myth.
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Well, how about hiring a manager then that is of the modern game?
You hire Erik Ten Hag for example I guarantee that given some time we would see massive changes on the pitch to the way we play, in an attacking sense. We may not have liked it because it was boring as hell at the time but the way we played under LVG was vastly diffrent to how we play now, it was different.
Ole's football isn't exactly free flowing, fast and modern is it, and Mourinho's has always been dour, Moyes I don't even know at this point i've almost forgotten that season, or blanked it out.
Get in a younger, modern manager/coach, you know, an imaginative appointment and I guarantee it will be different, Ten Hag, Marco Rose, someone like this, but I don't have any hope that they target someone like this
You hire Erik Ten Hag for example I guarantee that given some time we would see massive changes on the pitch to the way we play, in an attacking sense. We may not have liked it because it was boring as hell at the time but the way we played under LVG was vastly diffrent to how we play now, it was different.
Ole's football isn't exactly free flowing, fast and modern is it, and Mourinho's has always been dour, Moyes I don't even know at this point i've almost forgotten that season, or blanked it out.
Get in a younger, modern manager/coach, you know, an imaginative appointment and I guarantee it will be different, Ten Hag, Marco Rose, someone like this, but I don't have any hope that they target someone like this
You're mistaken my friend.
There is another
I don't think Man Utd fans would accept Jamie Carragher as a Utd. manager.
Nono, this man just beat Mourinho with a squad worth Pogbas lunchmoney
I was optimistic that the next manager could build on Ole's work with the squad, but after witnessing the last few days - we're fecked no matter who we get in. Too much politics, inexperience and nostalgia. Just a matter of time before we see a rumoured shortlist of Conte, Quieroz, Phil Neville and Darren Ferguson.
I'm not sure where you lot are getting your info from but if you read the Telegraph articles by Jason Burt and Jim White they clearly state that SAF wasn't at Carrington yesterday for footballing reasons. He was there with Martin Edwards for a prior engagement. The only time he's stepped in during Ole's reign was after the EL final to put an arm around De Gea and give encouragement to the players after the loss. He isn't in the best of health still so not sure how you lot think he's secretly running things behind the scenes. Yes he has influence because he's on the board but I highly doubt he's making decisions.
No comment about Ronaldo and if a phonecall was made.....
And no Utd. fan in the know has yet denied the rumour that the managers car parking space is still left free by Ole for the great man - a petty point I know, but it is things like this that tell you what is really going on at Man Utd.
You are aware that everybody at the club was on board with signing Ronaldo?
Because everyone at the club is on board with anything Sir Alex Ferguson thinks is for the best (even when it isn't) that is my whole point. If Sir Alex rang Ronaldo and persuaded him to return - would you then expect Ole to look glum about it? of course not, because it would be disrespecting his former manager. He had to go along with it.
I'd love to know what OGS really thinks about the signing now, because in actual fact it has been the death knell on his tenure at the club and it was not even his decision.
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Well if everyone goes along with what SAF thinks why didn't we sign Ronaldo in 2019 or the other times since 2013 he told people at the club that we should move for him? Ole made it pretty clear in press conferences over the last two years that he would love to have Ronaldo back at United. As if he would be against the idea of bringing a player of Ronaldo's quality to the club.
Fergie played a key role in signing Ronaldo because he's one of the only few people Ronaldo still defers to but it's ridiculous to suggest that the club didn't love the idea too. The Glazers were also made aware of the financial benefits by Woodward.
Yes I agree the squad is loaded for this style but, those players are not being deployed in this way.
I watched quite a lot of Sancho over the past three years at Dortmund, fantastic player that gets people out of their seats..
He would roam across the front three, take people on, be there for a quick a one two, always looking to make something happen.
When he signed I said to my mate, watch Sancho closely and see if he plays the same way at United.
The answer so far, is that he doesn't.
A heat map showed that whatever side he plays on, he stays in that position and doesn't roam freely.
He isn't taking defenders on, or if he does, he has no support around him for a one two.
He isn't making those forward passes, he is knocking it safely into MF.
If he is doing this by his own choice, then Solskjaer needs to take hold of him and tell him to play the style that he did at Dortmund, but personally, I think its more likely that he is being told to not take risks, keep the ball, keep it simple, keep it safe.
If I'm right, then this flies in the face of the comments being made by both Murtough & Solskjaer.
Well we will see. If another youngish, subservient manager comes in, rubber-stamped by Sir Alex, we will know I'm right.
If Conte comes in, I shall accept you are.
Before anyone mentions the Mourinho time to counter this argument, can I say this: he should have come to Utd. when Sir Alex stepped aside. But apparently that was blocked by SAF and Sir Bobby Charlton as they didn't think Mourinho was the right sort of 'character' for Old Trafford. That is one view, another is Sir Alex didn't want somone as big as Mourinho taking over from himself. They only relented a few years later out of desperation and possibly, as their health declined (especially with regard to Sir Bobby) their influence waned.
But Sir Alex seems to be 100% fit again now and I applaud him for that, but is that any reason for him to be making key decisions all over again? We can't dispute the Ronaldo one, it was a key decision he was involved with and it totally undermined the sitting manager, who couldn't do anything but accept it, due to his previous links to the legendary manager and indeed the player too.
I think the club needs to be realistic and stop thinking that our manager should always be there for the long term.
Football has changed a lot and we can't be obsessed with finding the next Sir Alex. Get in a guy with a 2 year contract which will be auto extended based on incentives hit.
If the manager can't hit the target expected, move on to the next one instead of dragging it out.
Football has changed a lot and we can't be obsessed with finding the next Sir Alex. Get in a guy with a 2 year contract which will be auto extended based on incentives hit.
If the manager can't hit the target expected, move on to the next one instead of dragging it out.
A friendly reminder that Ole Gunnar Solskjaer’s hugely successful 3 year “cultural reboot” of Manchester United, has allowed us to start most games this season with merely 12 players from the Jose Mourinho era in the matchday squad, and only about 7 in the team.
“Long term planning” is relative.
“Long term planning” is relative.
If we build properly with a good plan then we can win the league in next 2-3 seasons even with a manager who is not the best in world. Football changes very quickly. You just have to be there or there about to take your chances. It has always been Barcelona and R Madrid but whilst atheltico madrid have remained there. They’ve taken advantage of situations.
but sadly we are getting nowhere near to give me hope.
but sadly we are getting nowhere near to give me hope.
It will be better. We won't be singing someone who will make us take another turn at the round about. Just because he has the best CV available.
Agree with this. I don’t see what we achieve other than “relief” for some fans by sacking Ole now and installing Fletch as manager.
Mourinho’s scorched Earth Strategy when things aren’t going his way is a different story, but even in the leaked reports of players having no confidence in Ole, they tend to also mention that he’s still very much liked as a person.
I think the club likely are focusing on three options, Poch, Conte and Ten Hag; there will be many phone calls to agents and top level meetings with the board, advisory board, Murtough & Joel before they can all agree on which option is best and how to proceed. Yet apparently some see this as proof of a poorly run club?
A poor defeat this weekend though and the pressure will be enormous, it’ll be extremely hard for them to resist bringing down the axe so I seriously hope they have come to an agreement within the club and with the next manager before the weekend. If not, we’ll likely see Fletch in the dugout regardless.
I doubt it.
We're trapped in a straight jacket as there aren't many top managers available. Rumors coming out of the club are saying that they want a manager like Pochettino as opposed to Conte because he doesn't rock the boat so much and would not put pressure over the higher ups. That makes sense considering that most of our higher ups are incompetent people most of whom on their first job in the current role.
We're trapped in a straight jacket as there aren't many top managers available. Rumors coming out of the club are saying that they want a manager like Pochettino as opposed to Conte because he doesn't rock the boat so much and would not put pressure over the higher ups. That makes sense considering that most of our higher ups are incompetent people most of whom on their first job in the current role.
What makes you so sure
This question reminds of this scene from Parks & Recs :
I don’t believe any of it. “Fast, fluid, attacking football” is as vague a football philosophy as you could get. Meaningless drivel really.
More likely they want a manager who’s fine working within the structure they’ve spent 3 years creating, with a transfer board and with Murtough.
People like Poch and Klopp have spent the last decade working in similar scenarios whereas Conte is known to lose his shit at clubs and is very demanding in what he wants as a manager. He left Juve pissed off, Chelsea pissed him off royally in the market, and when Inter said they needed to “save money” he left them instantly.
I think they could work with Conte, but their ideal choice would be someone like Poch.
I personally think Conte would be fine, he doesn’t build a Conte team in the same way Mourinho wants a team precisely to his wishes, he’s much more flexible than Mourinho. I can however understand why it’d be something for them to consider before deciding on the next step.
I have reservations on Conte as well. My biggest issue is that his main tactic would mean a serious restructuring of the team which will lead to tens of millions worth of investment thrown in the bin. However let's been honest here, what structure are we defending exactly?
- Woodward is horrendous as CEO and is one of the main people who gave the nod to LVG, Mou and Ole as managers. He's supposed to soon be replaced by Arnold someone with a similar background and zero football knowledge. God only knows when Woodward will step down though.
- Murtough had zero experience as DOF prior to when we have given the job and had been around since Moyes. That means that similarly to Woody he had a finger in every disaster we've had since SAF left
- Judge had been horrendous. He overpaid for players and he gave them ridiculous salaries. Instead of firing the guy we've demoted him
- Fletcher was promoted to technical director after 10 minute coaching experience. Similarly to most of the guys he have zero experience in the role
- our coaching staff borders to the ridiculous. Most are vastly inexperienced and were given the job because of their ties with Ole or/and the club.
Its easy to pin everything over Ole. However who put him there? Who allowed him to built a heavily unbalanced side? Why have we signed Heaton and McShane? Why have we allowed him to rely on this inexperienced coaching staff including Carrick/Mckenna who were Mou's no 2s during his last disastrous campaign? Why have we given contract extensions to Jones, Mata, Matic and Grant? Don't take me wrong I am Ole out like most people in here. However there's more that meets the eye. So let's not kid ourselves that there's a structure worth saving here. It's the same incompetent people/job for the boys mentality that had infested the coaching department.
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Oh I agree Dev, you can also add the advisory board to that list, of which Gill and Fergie have a place. They seem more desperate in reliving a bit of nostalgia and maintaining as much of the “old way” in the club as possible, hence for example Phelan/Ole than they do about dragging the club into the modern era.
It’s a bit of a shit show from top to bottom. That said, we all thought the same about the scousers till a certain Klopp came around.
It’s a bit of a shit show from top to bottom. That said, we all thought the same about the scousers till a certain Klopp came around.
I think this is a key point. All indications are Carrick and McKenna are if anything a bigger part of the problem than Ole is. They are after all the ones who are primarily tasked with the setup and tactical instructions and drills on the training field, it seems. If there's going to be a caretaker, it seems obvious he needs to come from outside the current setup. Not that that is necessarily a prohibitive problem - we've done that before, as you will all recall.
And regardless of how you see Ole's tenure as a manager, there's no denying he was an extremely successful caretaker.This is it and I agree. It is worth noting that our recruitment has gotten much better since Ole came and started working under a new recruitment structure. We need a manager that will continue that and I'm not sure sure manager is Conte
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