Why United shouldn’t settle so quickly for Poch over Hag

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That's essentially risking medium to long term success for possible short term success. Let's be clear - one of the biggest question marks about Poch is his lack of trophies. It isn't too controversial an opinion to say even if he was hired, there is a very likely chance we finish the season trophyless when taking into account his personal history and our current predicament.

I think the club as a whole needs to be modernised, something a modern coach would be able to implement, whether that's Ten Hag or otherwise. Otherwise we potentially risk making the incorrect managerial decision again, wasting another 3 years or so.

All managers come with risk of course, but I just think signing a manager like Ten Hag, who has already illustrated he can implement a progressive style, over a more pragmatic manager in Poch who has a history of winning no trophies is probably less of a risk.

I'm a big fan of Poch btw, I think what he did at Southampton even before Spurs was very impressive, I just don't think he is what we need now and I'd personally be happy to wait until the end of the season for a more progressive coach.

Yep, bolded is what a few posters are not fully considering.

and to @Damien ‘s post, I don’t think it’d be a worry if we figured out Ten Hag isn’t acquirable in the summer for whatever reason. Poch could be had then as odds are he’s either stuck the szn through at PSG or got sacked by them for Zidane.

…speaking of which…this may open up another conversation but I’d prefer Zidane over Poch as well!
 
For feck's sake enough of this Ten Hag or bust bullshit. From the board's perspective it's clear to see why they think that Poch is the safer choice. He's a good manager who will do well here providing he is backed financially.
 
That is all assuming that Ten Hag would want to come here - personally I think City have already moved and secured him for 2023.

We've got a situation where Poch wants us now. If we don't "settle" and decide to hire an interim manager to wait until summer to try and get Ten Hag only for him to reject us, we would then have to look for another manager, Poch might no longer be available, Pogba gone on a free, lots of deadwood to deal with and if the interim didn't do well we might not even have European football to offer prospective signings.

Ten Hag is top of my list too but I don't want to see us pretty much give up on the rest of the season by appointing an interim when there's a very good manager who wants to come here now and we can still fight for something.
I tend to agree. But only if we did properly sound out Ten Hag and he said it's unlikely. I mean we could agree a move for him in advance, would avoid the gamble aspect.

I reckon we never tried. It's clear Poch is the chosen one of the board et al.
 
Rock and a hard place now. The board have to get this right.

Sign Poch and do shit, they'll get reamed, Sign Ten Hag and do shit, they'll get reamed.

The have to get this decision right. I think it needs a top to bottom shake up. If you get Ten Hag, you get him VDS as CEO, you get him Overmars as Technical Director. Leave that Arnold bloke to sort out official tampon sponsors, and get a pure footballing CEO in with experience of running a top level team.
 
Our infrastructure is nothing like PSG if this is what you're insinuating. We give manager as much autonomy as is feasible to build out the squad. Leonardo on the other hand is a rogue nutter who doesn't give 2 shits of what his manager has as a positional preference let alone player reference. This is a gripe that Poch and Tuchel have both had.

He got sacked for falling away from top 4. If he had won a token FA Cup that would not have changed matters. But his squad did not play well because it was in a dire need of a refresh. I agree there were a couple of big signings that were bad, like Ndombele for example, but he barely had much time to bed him in.

I think this is really presumptuous. It's a lot easier to look formidable in Eredivisie with Ajax than it is to keep abreast of City/Liverpool/United/Chelsea who spend multiples more and have more resources themselves. All whilst moving stadiums too which is far from easy.

This is just the fickle nature of our viewers. A lot are casual watchers of Ten Hag. If he has an early exit from the CL against a half decent side you'll see the wind blow in the complete other direction. When Poch reached the CL final he was the Ten Hag then. All you can do is really look at the pedigree of both and realize there's very little between them.
I'm not, but the power at United is moving away from the manager. Levy is greedy, but Spurs didnt have the structure that United is now working towards.

His squad did need a refresh, but I fear that his coaching might not be as detailed for that drop in form. Ten Hag lost his best players and in the mean time still had to have Ajax play at a worthy level.

Ofcourse it is easier to look formidable with Ajax, although this level Ajax hasnt reached in over 10 years. Poch wasnt the Ten Hag when he reached the CL Final, as impressive as it was, Spurs' football wasnt as rated as the football Ajax was playing. It isn't only results I think that makes people like Ten Hag so much, but also the style of play. Blowing Juventus, Real, and also Spurs away like that, is something Poch didn't do like that. Whilst a win is a win, and that with such a young side full of inexperienced players with no status, which he is doing again.

Ajax didnt do as well result-wise in the 2 seasons after 18/19 but still Ten Hag his praises are being sang, that is mainly because of how he has coached his side and the performance level he achieves with them.
 
the PL proven Poch got sacked at Spurs which makes you question what he exactly proved.

The fact that he could outperform both Klopp and Guardiola (2017) as well as Conte (2018) over a league campaign, for one. With a fraction of the resources.

People have very short memories.
 
I'm not, but the power at United is moving away from the manager. Levy is greedy, but Spurs didnt have the structure that United is now working towards.
It's really not. Ole was one of the least deserving managers you can think of and they backed him with almost 400m to spend how he liked. It's really not moving anything like PSG whatsoever. The only blocks we've made and would continue to make, would be for bizarre suggestions like Perisic at 31 or Wilian at 32, or declining manager wishes when they have a foot out the door.
His squad did need a refresh, but I fear that his coaching might not be as detailed for that drop in form. Ten Hag lost his best players and in the mean time still had to have Ajax play at a worthy level.
His coaching is such that you need a feck load of work off the ball. The pressing is vital to his game and that will burn out a squad after 3 years easily. Klopp was completely destroyed with Dortmund as he was not far from Relegation with them by Christmas before turning it around. Pressing sides need refreshing and Levy was never going to refresh his squad the way Poch needed him to. Levy was all about the money especially with the new stadium and that severely hampers the manager.
Ofcourse it is easier to look formidable with Ajax, although this level Ajax hasnt reached in over 10 years. Poch wasnt the Ten Hag when he reached the CL Final, as impressive as it was, Spurs' football wasnt as rated as the football Ajax was playing. It isn't only results I think that makes people like Ten Hag so much, but also the style of play. Blowing Juventus, Real, and also Spurs away like that, is something Poch didn't do like that. Whilst a win is a win, and that with such a young side full of inexperienced players with no status, which he is doing again.

You're really starting to exaggerate here. You were convincing in the 1-1 draw for sure and probably deserved to win, but in the second tie you didn't blow Juventus away - it was evens on possession and you won the leg 3-2. Shots and shots on target were roughly even on this tie. And with Real, with respect it was a great achievement but beating Lopetegui's Real isn't the same as Poch beating Zidane's Real.

We're splitting hairs here but all I'm saying is Ten Hag hasn't proven anything results or pedigree wise over Poch. He plays nicer football but that's about it. You seem intent to take Ten Hag's CL runs to boast about how great he can be with a fraction of the money but forget Poch has beaten Pep, Conte, Zidane too. They are both very capable managers. Ten Hag plays better football but one can argue Poch is more flexible in how he approaches a team set up.
Ajax didnt do as well result-wise in the 2 seasons after 18/19 but still Ten Hag his praises are being sang, that is mainly because of how he has coached his side and the performance level he achieves with them.
I'm not denying that, but whatever he has achieved has not been proven at the highest level. Which brings me back to asking what he's done to warrant such blind faith over Poch.
 
That's essentially risking medium to long term success for possible short term success. Let's be clear - one of the biggest question marks about Poch is his lack of trophies. It isn't too controversial an opinion to say even if he was hired, there is a very likely chance we finish the season trophyless when taking into account his personal history and our current predicament.

I think the club as a whole needs to be modernised, something a modern coach would be able to implement, whether that's Ten Hag or otherwise. Otherwise we potentially risk making the incorrect managerial decision again, wasting another 3 years or so.

All managers come with risk of course, but I just think signing a manager like Ten Hag, who has already illustrated he can implement a progressive style, over a more pragmatic manager in Poch who has a history of winning no trophies is probably less of a risk.

I'm a big fan of Poch btw, I think what he did at Southampton even before Spurs was very impressive, I just don't think he is what we need now and I'd personally be happy to wait until the end of the season for a more progressive coach.
We're very likely to finish the season trophyless anyway, we could hire Jesus to perform miracles and that would be the case.

We're out of league contention, we're no way near good enough for the CL, we're just one of many teams with a ticket for a cup competition. I don't see how this would be any different with Ten Hag or anyone else.

Also what does progressive really mean? I thought his Spurs sides were one of the most forward thinking teams around. It didn't mean ridiculous attacking as we've seen occasionally this season, but it was a very structured press, good attacking, a very clear team plan that could compete with the best without simply going into a shell. They could compete with Pep etc on level terms in games, it wasn't cynical or reactive. Of course they lack ultimate quality because they're Spurs but the level he extracted was clear enough to see.
 
The fact that he could outperform both Klopp and Guardiola (2017) as well as Conte (2018) over a league campaign, for one. With a fraction of the resources.

People have very short memories.
That City lacked the defenders Pep needed (a criticism of Pep) and that Liverpool team was nowhere near ready. Conte massively collapsed, still impressive though nonetheless. A bit like Ole outperforming Klopp (2020), what a great manager he is.
 
I want Ten Hag as manager too but the thing is the board obviously feel that this season is salvageable.

We've much more chance of qualifying for the UCL with Poch than an interim/Carrick.
 
We're very likely to finish the season trophyless anyway, we could hire Jesus to perform miracles and that would be the case.

We're out of league contention, we're no way near good enough for the CL, we're just one of many teams with a ticket for a cup competition. I don't see how this would be any different with Ten Hag or anyone else.

Also what does progressive really mean? I thought his Spurs sides were one of the most forward thinking teams around. It didn't mean ridiculous attacking as we've seen occasionally this season, but it was a very structured press, good attacking, a very clear team plan that could compete with the best without simply going into a shell. They could compete with Pep etc on level terms in games, it wasn't cynical or reactive. Of course they lack ultimate quality because they're Spurs but the level he extracted was clear enough to see.

I agree, but when I guess when I'm using the word 'progressive' I'm referring more to the modern approach wherein managers don't really deviate from their style. Poch is more than happy to sit back and attempt to counter to try and nullify an opponent - that's not something I'd consider a progressive style. See PSG vs City this year, as an example. He has (IMO) by far the most talented squad on the planet, yet set his team up very defensively against City. That is what I'm alluding to, I guess. We need to be looking for managers that are able to get lesser players (even though City are obviously a ridiculously talented squad), to a level where they can perform to that standard.

I don't consider Poch a 'progressive' manager, purely because he doesn't have a set style, you wouldn't necessarily associate his sides as a possession one, or one that utilises veritcal tiki-taka (a modern approach to the style) etc. He is a good tactician/coach who can build teams that play good football but are adaptable. If that's you're thing, all power to you, I just don't think it's what will bring this club success when compared to a more 'progressive' manager (again, one who places larger emphasis on possession retention, vertical movements etc.)
 
I want Ten Hag as manager too but the thing is the board obviously feel that this season is salvageable.

We've much more chance of qualifying for the UCL with Poch than an interim/Carrick.

Their plan was to initially sign an interim, as their statement suggested. We don't need to sign Poch or continue with Carrick, it's not like those are the only two options. There are reports that Rangnick would be happy to take us on as an interim until the end of the season, for example
 
It's really not. Ole was one of the least deserving managers you can think of and they backed him with almost 400m to spend how he liked. It's really not moving anything like PSG whatsoever. The only blocks we've made and would continue to make, would be for bizarre suggestions like Perisic at 31 or Wilian at 32, or declining manager wishes when they have a foot out the door.

His coaching is such that you need a feck load of work off the ball. The pressing is vital to his game and that will burn out a squad after 3 years easily. Klopp was completely destroyed with Dortmund as he was not far from Relegation with them by Christmas before turning it around. Pressing sides need refreshing and Levy was never going to refresh his squad the way Poch needed him to. Levy was all about the money especially with the new stadium and that severely hampers the manager.


You're really starting to exaggerate here. You were convincing in the 1-1 draw for sure and probably deserved to win, but in the second tie you didn't blow Juventus away - it was evens on possession and you won the leg 3-2. Shots and shots on target were roughly even on this tie. And with Real, with respect it was a great achievement but beating Lopetegui's Real isn't the same as Poch beating Zidane's Real.

We're splitting hairs here but all I'm saying is Ten Hag hasn't proven anything results or pedigree wise over Poch. He plays nicer football but that's about it. You seem intent to take Ten Hag's CL runs to boast about how great he can be with a fraction of the money but forget Poch has beaten Pep, Conte, Zidane too. They are both very capable managers. Ten Hag plays better football but one can argue Poch is more flexible in how he approaches a team set up.

I'm not denying that, but whatever he has achieved has not been proven at the highest level. Which brings me back to asking what he's done to warrant such blind faith over Poch.
I didn't say we were moving towards a PSG structure, but we are moving towards a structure where players and youth players are identified by a technical team for example. Where we want to develop a long term style of play, and identity of players that fit the club.

Bayern and maybe City seem to be the only side that have played a pressing game and have been succesful and competing for over 3 years, but regardless of the style of play, very few team stay at the highest level for many consecutive years in a row so I am not entirely sure if that is to pressing, or just general. Interesting discussion nonetheless.

I should have added at times, that Ajax teams could go periods where they blew the opposition away and create many dangerous plays consecutively whilst dominating. Rarely for the entire match.

It is false to say that what he has achieved at Ajax isn't at the highest level. Especially when you look at it in the context of an Eredivisie team, reaching the CL semi-final, now winning the group with such a goal difference, it is completely unthinkable. Many metrics have Ajax as a current top 10 team in the world based on machine learning models.

On top of that, especially relative, even what he is achieving in Holland, is remarkable but ofcourse difficult to compare with Pochettino as he has managed clubs in a completely different context.

Domestically, now finally, Pochettino and Ten Hag are in somewhat similar situations, although PSV/Feyenoord are far more competition for Ajax than Lille/Lyon/Marseille are to PSG. Pochettino did poor in his 1st half year, and results-wise is doing very good. Still the fans are un-amused by the coaching and the football he plays.
 
Problem at the moment:
Good players but poor tactician as manager.


Solution:
Bring in good tactician who can take us further

Tactics are universal in football and Ajax equals tactics

Ten hag is a good tactician

Bring in Ten Hag, a good tactician, who can guide these good players.


Whats so difficult

Well, if he brought the Ajax staff over here with him, including VDS and Overmars, I think we'd see a massive improvement. Trouble is, he'd be coming here on his own and he'd have Woodward to deal with, or maybe Arnold, plus the coaches already in place.
 
Ten Hag is more exciting, but we can't afford to write off the season. If Poch wants to come now its probably better to just get
 
I agree, but when I guess when I'm using the word 'progressive' I'm referring more to the modern approach wherein managers don't really deviate from their style. Poch is more than happy to sit back and attempt to counter to try and nullify an opponent - that's not something I'd consider a progressive style. See PSG vs City this year, as an example. He has (IMO) by far the most talented squad on the planet, yet set his team up very defensively against City. That is what I'm alluding to, I guess. We need to be looking for managers that are able to get lesser players (even though City are obviously a ridiculously talented squad), to a level where they can perform to that standard.

I don't consider Poch a 'progressive' manager, purely because he doesn't have a set style, you wouldn't necessarily associate his sides as a possession one, or one that utilises veritcal tiki-taka (a modern approach to the style) etc. He is a good tactician/coach who can build teams that play good football but are adaptable. If that's you're thing, all power to you, I just don't think it's what will bring this club success when compared to a more 'progressive' manager (again, one who places larger emphasis on possession retention, vertical movements etc.)
Sure, but I think PSG are a difficult side to setup to press and go for the jugular against Manchester City. They have abundant talent but the forwards aren't going to be busting a gut out there and they don't have the same technical players in midfield either to dominate the ball against City's press.

There is no point in trying to outmanoeuvre City in that style with that set of players when they can be deadly when playing with field in front of them. There's a thin line between sticking to principles and just being a bit silly and not utilising player strengths in my opinion.

I think at Spurs is a far more conclusive body of work because it was more aligned to himself rather than being anchored to a set number of superstars. It was also over a long period. Even his Saints days seemed to me progressive.
 
I'd be happy with Pochettino as well with ten Hag. Think Poch is always a favourite to our board, they've been in contact with him for years and he wouldn't require changes in ceo/dof positions like ten Hag probably would.
 
For feck's sake enough of this Ten Hag or bust bullshit. From the board's perspective it's clear to see why they think that Poch is the safer choice. He's a good manager who will do well here providing he is backed financially.
How is he the safer choice?
 
I'd like Ten Hag because, like I saw somebody say last night, there is a mystery aspect to him. He's done well in a small league and could be the next big thing or the next AVB/Jardim. I personally seriously doubt he will be a Pep Guardiola level manager, I don't think he is that level. Still one of the best options right now, but no better than Poch for me, who has successfully implemented his style at 2 PL clubs already. That can't be sniffed at.

This idea of Ten Hag or bust is daft.
 
How is he the safer choice?
From the boards point of view; consistent top 4 finishes in the Premier League four seasons on the bounce with a team who spend considerably less than we do while also consistently giving opportunities to younger players.
 
That City lacked the defenders Pep needed (a criticism of Pep) and that Liverpool team was nowhere near ready. Conte massively collapsed, still impressive though nonetheless. A bit like Ole outperforming Klopp (2020), what a great manager he is.

Pochettino got 86 points in 2017, which is more than we've managed in a single season despite the billion pounds spent since Fergie retired . Ole got 74 last season when he beat Klopp (City won the league with ... 86). I don't need to keep bringing up the gulf in transfer and wage spending between Spurs and the rest of the old "big six".

But I have a feeling you're fully aware of this and just prefer Ten Hag. Which is perfectly fine, as long as we don't need to resort to taking shots at one manager over the other.
 
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*Disclaimer: not saying Poch is shit.



Everyone knows what Poch brings to the table. He gets players playing an exciting style of football irregardless of results (aka for better or worse). It’s why he’s prone and known to having bad stretches with his teams which doesn’t seem like a recipe for long term sustainability for the top of the top clubs like United.

Ole brought us the right mindset and turned the ship around; tactically he was out of his depth. Poch would bring much better offensive flow; however he’s known to be a bottler. Sort of the inverse José you can say. Of all the pros and cons or things these managers lack, Ten Hag has a mixture of all the pros with virtually no signs of the cons or at least very limited in comparison. Another thing is Ten Hag could truly be an up and coming manager prodigy to match the likes of a Pep or Klopp. Poch we know is good but a tier or 2 below them.

…it’s also at least a bit of a worry Poch is so easily ready to run away from the challenge at PSG. Seems he’s having troubles managing players/egos, along with their board, which is exactly what he’d have to face at United. Ultimately Ten Hag excites me more having more managerial potential to unearth and become someone truly special to which he+United could say they are the creators of a potentially great project/new era. I feel like if United secure Poch mid szn, it’ll be because it’s the easier thing to do simple as that.


Maybe I’m wrong who knows. It’s that in all honesty, Ten Hag seems to make most sense in terms of longevity and sustainability. If Poch were to be hired tomorrow I wouldn’t be mad - glad in fact seeing the state the club is in. But it would annoy me had it become known later on through reports or whatnot that United went with Poch because it was the easiest path when they could’ve got Ten Hag had they been a little patient.

I'm not Pochs biggest fan, but this idea that he is a bottler is a based on some flaky evidence.

Are we saying because he didn't win the league with Spurs he is a bottler or is it because he didn't win the league in half a season at PSG after tuchel had been sacked for a poor run of form with the same players in the somewhat odd pandemic season.

Spurs were shit before he joined and shit after he left the only time they have been good in recent history is when Poch was in charge.

Poch also knows the Premier league which is a bonus.

At the end of the day if poch is willing and available to take over now then it's a no-brainer. Why would we go through the hassle of an interim manager that we are struggling to find to wait till the summer to then appoint ten hag (who may turn us down anyway) and has only ever managed at first team level in the Dutch league. Yes his teams look very good and fluid and tacitally astute and he had some success in the CL, but that is a whole different ball park to managing Manchester United in the PL.
 
From the boards point of view; consistent top 4 finishes in the Premier League four seasons on the bounce with a team who spend considerably less than we do while also consistently giving opportunities to younger players.
He's underachieved as much as he's overachieved.
 
He's proven himself at 3 clubs, 2 in the PL. Took Spurs to 2nd place, 4/5 CL place finishes for the first time in decades, finished above Pep and Klopp (iirc). CL Final. Beat Ten Hag in the CL.
Which 3 clubs?
 
What if we don't go for Poch ( if he is indeed available ) and instead wait for the close season; and in so doing, with an interim, fail to get top 4? This being the case we may not be an attractive destination for either Poch or ETH, or, in fact, any other top-ranked candidate.
 
Rock and a hard place now. The board have to get this right.

Sign Poch and do shit, they'll get reamed, Sign Ten Hag and do shit, they'll get reamed.

The have to get this decision right. I think it needs a top to bottom shake up. If you get Ten Hag, you get him VDS as CEO, you get him Overmars as Technical Director. Leave that Arnold bloke to sort out official tampon sponsors, and get a pure footballing CEO in with experience of running a top level team.
:lol:
 
Ten Hag is the clear best choice, but I've become used to horrible appointments that I'd take Pochettino just to ensure we don't miss out on Ten Hag and end up with Rodgers next summer... Basically, Pochettino is meh, Rodgers is awful, rather take the meh now than end up with the awful choice after a wasted season.
 
Either manager would an excellent acquisition.

Thread should be ended with this.

People will always have their preferences but the fact that each side has to put down the other to make their guy appear better is stupid.
 
What if we don't go for Poch ( if he is indeed available ) and instead wait for the close season; and in so doing, with an interim, fail to get top 4? This being the case we may not be an attractive destination for either Poch or ETH, or, in fact, any other top-ranked candidate.

Or wait till summer for ETH and he goes to Bayern/City/Juventus/whoever. Zidane is a no-go, Poch would have been fecked off and would then be a no-go, Conte a no-go.

You'd all have to potentially make peace with Rodgers if you want to pass on Poch and wait for Ten Hag.
 
Or wait till summer for ETH and he goes to Bayern/City/Juventus/whoever. Zidane is a no-go, Poch would have been fecked off and would then be a no-go, Conte a no-go.

You'd all have to potentially make peace with Rodgers if you want to pass on Poch and wait for Ten Hag.

Tbf, the club could very easily hire an interim and then agree a contract with ETH to take over in the summer, at the same time. Hiring an interim doesn't mean negotiations can't take place straight away for the successor.
 
What if we don't go for Poch ( if he is indeed available ) and instead wait for the close season; and in so doing, with an interim, fail to get top 4? This being the case we may not be an attractive destination for either Poch or ETH, or, in fact, any other top-ranked candidate.
Realistically there are 4 teams fighting for 4th. West Ham, Arsenal, Spurs, and United. I'd put my money on West Ham or Spurs at the moment with us being least likely out of those 4. We could be 9 points off 4th by Sunday afternoon. If we don't get an experienced manager to at least see out the season, 4th is gone. Not the end of the world and we have far greater problems at the moment. If this is the plan the board and owners have and finally going for the right manager at the end of the season, I can get on board with that. However, if they want Poch, and all he has to do is verbally put in the request to PSG, and we dither only to get Poch in the summer, that would have been a massive mistake. If Poch is available now and Ten Hag doesn't want to give an answer until the end of the season, get Poch now. Save the season and give him a head start on assessing the task at hand.
 
Tbf, the club could very easily hire an interim and then agree a contract with ETH to take over in the summer, at the same time. Hiring an interim doesn't mean negotiations can't take place straight away for the successor.

Is 'agreeing a contract to take over in the summer' a legally binding agreement? Or just like any other agreement that happens in football where the player/club/manager clear off at the first sign of a better offer?
 
Problem at the moment:
Good players but poor tactician as manager.


Solution:
Bring in good tactician who can take us further

Tactics are universal in football and Ajax equals tactics

Ten hag is a good tactician

Bring in Ten Hag, a good tactician, who can guide these good players.


Whats so difficult
All of this.

Poch is also thin skinned. Couldn't handle any small criticism at Spurs without getting defensive. How on earth is he going to be at United? Plus not the greatest with transfers.
Not a good idea at all.
 
Pochettino got 86 points in 2017, which is more than we've managed in a single season despite the billion pounds spent since Fergie retired . Ole got 74 last season when he beat Klopp (City won the league with ... 86). I don't need to keep bringing up the gulf in transfer and wage spending between Spurs and the rest of the old "big six".

But I have a feeling you're fully aware of this and just prefer Ten Hag. Which is perfectly fine, as long as we don't need to resort to taking shots at one manager over the other.
86 points is a very good mark, it's impressive and I think he could achieve similar with this side.
 
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