I have not seen enough of Garner but from what I have seen, and from some Forrest fans I know, they think he's very good but not necessarily top level for a top PL club.Do you think Fred+Garner midfield may work? I feel Garner is a good passer and maybe good option for us, if we failed to land our midfield targets this summer.
Exactly. Midfielders who can keep possession between them will improve us as much as any DM you’d put in a 3 alongside McFred who often gift the ball away too easily.
The idea a DM would solve our issues is nonsensical if unaccompanied by other midfielders who don’t give the ball away, even Bruno is a huge culprit. You could have Fabinho in front of our back 4 & he’d struggle with the workload.
Do we really need a 'DM' though? What do we even mean by a 'DM'?
It seems to me that what many posters want when they talk about 'DMs' is a player like Bissouma or Ndidi, but these two are miles off being good enough on the ball to really take us to the level we aspire.
I'm not sure we need a 'DM'....we just need some good midfield players!
I have not seen enough of Garner but from what I have seen, and from some Forrest fans I know, they think he's very good but not necessarily top level for a top PL club.
So I have zero expectation of Garner.
Exactly.Conversely you could sign a ball playing midfielder but without a DM they'll struggle. For me you really need both. We've seen it when we've asked Pogba to play without a DM, asked Fred to play both as a DM and a midfielder, last season when Fabinho was shifted into defence.. all the top teams play with a specialised DM. Rodri, Fabinho, Casemiro etc, the exception being teams that play 5 at the back and get solidity that way.
The problem we're going to face is that we're going to sign De Jong, and then probably stick one of Fred or Mctominay as the DM when all 3 are box to box players.
Not calling you out - but genuinely curious, have you watched much of Bissouma? Every Brighton game I watched he stood out to me as being excellent on the ball. Having a guy that plays like this would be a game changer on our team imo
Yes, I too think Fred is very underrated on the caf. Agree with your point regarding how he might operate in a well coached team too. But Fred is not a defensive midfielder, and I do believe that filling this role is really important if the team is to improve next season.I have not seen enough of Garner but from what I have seen, and from some Forrest fans I know, they think he's very good but not necessarily top level for a top PL club.
So I have zero expectation of Garner.
I think Fred's skillset is going to be very valuable to ETH though, and I think his value add is very underrated on the caf, particularly if he's part of a well coached system. I think he can be a pivotal cog in our wheel, but thats just a sneaky feeling.
In this case you've had about five different people try and explain it to you, and they're right. Madrid didn't play a true 4-3-3 in the final. I do agree with your point on playing a 4-3-3 and having a DM though.
Okay there Tiger… The pundits mentioned it, the commentators mentioned it, we’ve said it here. Not sure what your footballing background is, but anyone with two eyes could see that Valverde was playing as a RM.
Back to your original point, “the best teams play a 4-3-3”, which is the cousin of “the best teams play possession football”, it’s not really true. I gave you an example of other formations that work, Chelsea’s 3-4-2-1, Bayern played a 4-2-3-1 with Muller behind the striker, and if you look back over the last 20 years, there are two sides who have won the CL with a classic 4-3-3, Liverpool and Barcelona. You may argue that Real Madrid used a 4-3-3, but actually Isco frequently played at the tip of a midfield diamond with Ronaldo and Benzema as the strikers during their CL runs. When utilizing Bale, they did morph into a conservative 4-3-3 and were deadly on the counter. But if you go down the list, Chelsea, United, Inter, Milan, Bayern, Porto… none of them played a classic 4-3-3.
I’m not criticizing the formation of 4-3-3, I’m merely saying the formation is not a determining factor on whether you are a “great” team. SAF bounced between a 4-4-2 and 4-5-1 and won his fair share of trophies and played really entertaining football.
The problem we're going to face is that we're going to sign De Jong, and then probably stick one of Fred or Mctominay as the DM when all 3 are box to box players.
I don’t like the idea of him as a no6 on his own whether that is his best position or not.
I want a 4-3-3 because that's how top teams play. They play with a proper DM and two midfielders who can retain possession (that is the opposite of Bruno). As it stands, we don't have a proper #6 in our squad even if we sign Frankie. And by the way...he doesn't even want to play for UNited. Haven't we learned our lesson yet?
Surely players playing in their best position is a positive, desirable notion? 'On his own' - I mean, it's not like there won't be other midfielders playing?
Are you of the opinion that we really need a combative, destructive type of holding midfielder? That players such as Carrick, Busquets, Xabi Alonso, Thiago Motta or Jorginho would not be suitable?
I thought we had established that that is simply untrue. Two midfielders who can retain possession? Does that description really fit De Bruyne? No, it does not.
What do you actually mean by 'proper' DM? Are the players I've listed in my response to another poster above not proper DMs?
Actually a player like Carrick or Busquets would be perfect. They can/could operate as a true #6. What I want is to see a #6 and two #8's. I don't want to see two #8's and a #10 like we have seen for the past couple of years. Someone disciplined like Carrick who can sit in front of the back two and dictate play would be the dream. And no, I don't think of a DM as a "combative or destructive" type.. Carrick was 10 times the player Scott Parker was.
It's very strange, we're not going to get the best out of De Jong with our current options
(Christ where have I heard that before when talking about a big money midfield signing)
Actually a player like Carrick or Busquets would be perfect. They can/could operate as a true #6. What I want is to see a #6 and two #8's. I don't want to see two #8's and a #10 like we have seen for the past couple of years. Someone disciplined like Carrick who can sit in front of the back two and dictate play would be the dream. And no, I don't think of a DM as a "combative or destructive" type.. Carrick was 10 times the player Scott Parker was.
Well he's not the only player that he'll sign in that area though. Sure, it might not be this season but the rebuild has to start somewhere and De Jong is a bloody good start.
But the logical thing if you're accepting its going to take several windows is focus on one area of the pitch at a time, so get the midfield functioning 100% the way you want it so it's easier for the attackers you end up bringing in in the next window or the defenders etc etc
Doing 50% of this area of the pitch, 30% here, 20% there makes little sense unless there's targets too good to turn down
I find it very odd that ETH isn't prioritizing this position. What does he have in mind? Has the club already decided it's Rice next year? I just don't get it.
It's very strange, we're not going to get the best out of De Jong with our current options
(Christ where have I heard that before when talking about a big money midfield signing)
Maybe he wants to make sure to find the most suitable defensive partner for FDJ, after FDJ move is secured.I find it very odd that ETH isn't prioritizing this position. What does he have in mind? Has the club already decided it's Rice next year? I just don't get it.
De Jong fits that mould for me. Especially the De Jong of Ajax. The question then is can you get the best out of Bruno in the #8, which I think you could. His starting position has been far too high for my liking.
Maybe he wants to make sure to find the most suitable defensive partner for FDJ, after FDJ move is secured.
Care to explain ? At Ajax his partner was Schonne - an attacking midfielder. ETH has a different understanding of DM role. You have no idea how he wants to implement the system.It's very strange, we're not going to get the best out of De Jong with our current options
(Christ where have I heard that before when talking about a big money midfield signing)
Care to explain ? At Ajax his partner was Schonne - an attacking midfielder. ETH has a different understanding of DM role. You have no idea how he wants to implement the system.
De Jong would be a great addition to our CM. Pogba was a liability defensive wise and McFred while being decent in winning the ball were horrible in retaining ball possession. I have a feeling that United will try and get top 4 with McFred only to try and get Rice the summer next. He's the player the club wants
Care to explain ? At Ajax his partner was Schonne - an attacking midfielder. ETH has a different understanding of DM role. You have no idea how he wants to implement the system.
I hope not. Declan Rice is the midfield version of Harry Maguire.
De Jong would be a great addition to our CM. Pogba was a liability defensive wise and McFred while being decent in winning the ball were horrible in retaining ball possession. I have a feeling that United will try and get top 4 with McFred only to try and get Rice the summer next. He's the player the club wants
See that's where it gets interesting. Can that stuff work in the Premier League?
That's a bit silly. First off Maguire isn't as bad as last season. He just needs to play in a well defined system that works to his strengths and hides his weaknesses (which will probably not be high press but never mind.) Secondly Rice is one of the best DMs around.
It's well known that several figures at the club really love and rate McTominay.
I agree with you that, clearly, Rice is the one people at the club love. However, what if our lack of a proper screening midfielder sees us finish 6th again next year? What if Chelsea compete for trophies, Kante finally moves on and Chelsea are like: 'Hey Declan, come back to your boyhood club. Kante's gone now and we're fighting for Champions League unlike Man Utd?'
Sometimes the hierarchy at Man Utd behaves like this is 2002 not 2022. Like we can just put markers down with players and come back to them. There seems to be little acknowledgement that the last 10 years has seen us become less and less attractive to players.
We may well be planning to go for Rice next year. However, in the meantime, if we don't do well enough to be attractive to him this year, we might not get him. Getting a proper defensive midfielder, even a cheap one who has the right instincts (unlike McTominay and Fred who wanna go chasing the ball), could be the difference between looking like a club on the way up or down. I just don't understand how the hierarchy at United doesn't see that.
Harry Maguire wasn't worth the fee paid for him. Declan Rice won't be worth the 100m+ West Ham will want for him.
