Sorry about that, for some reason I thought Elliott made senior debut at LFC
Why have our academy products become so bad?
- Thread starter Nani Nana
- Start date
Sorry about that, for some reason I thought Elliott made senior debut at LFC
Not convinced tbh. It'd be like claiming Gerard Pique was a United academy product
He’s not some teenager like you’re making out, he’s two years younger than Rashford. Are you saying you rate Smith Rowe higher than him?
Some are claiming Mejbri as an academy talent despite him costing 5 to 10 Million. There isnt an academy talent anywhere near the likes of Rashford and Greenwood thats for sure. Notice Smith Rowe played in Arsenals first team at 18. Be some fast track for the players mentioned to get to that level in a side struggling to get top 4 football with a Manager under pressure to succeed.
Greenwood is off with good reason, I think most football fans would call Saka and Smith Rowe a much better value proposition than Rashford and Garnacho. Not to mention Balogun who ripped Ligue 1 apart last season.
I do feel we have regressed and not as many good players come through the youth system as before. Looking at the state of Old Trafford, I'll say if you don't put enough focus on development, it won't just happen by itself.
Saying that, giving opportunity for younger players to play at top level is equally important. Clubs with lower expectations can do so with lesser consequences but for top tier clubs, you can afford to play young players more when the majority in the team is playing well and you can risk a couple of players under performing.
Manchester United unfortunately, isn't investing enough and can't afford to risk playing inexperienced players in the current team. Otherwise, why isn't Garnacho starting more games?
Saying that, giving opportunity for younger players to play at top level is equally important. Clubs with lower expectations can do so with lesser consequences but for top tier clubs, you can afford to play young players more when the majority in the team is playing well and you can risk a couple of players under performing.
Manchester United unfortunately, isn't investing enough and can't afford to risk playing inexperienced players in the current team. Otherwise, why isn't Garnacho starting more games?
As @Grande listed: ”Mainoo evidently intended for first team action this year, Garnacho last year, Greenwood two years before that, Henderson sold now, Rashford through before that.”
The list goes on. We’ve recently sold Premier League level players we produced such as Pereira, Garner, Elanga, Lingard, Pogba & Chong. Angel Gomes is a regular starter for Lille and was one of England U21’s best players in their Euros triumph in the summer.
People seem to have unrealistic expectations that we should be able to produce top class talents every single year or bring another class of ’92 up just like that. As many have pointed out that was an anomaly. Not even Barca, Ajax & co. manage to produce mega talents every season.
Garnacho isn’t starting more games because he just turned 19 and has a lot to learn. It’s not like Sir Alex threw teenagers into the starting eleven on consistent basis either. Yes after the Co ’92 there was Rooney and Ronaldo but again, they were rare world class talents.
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I'm interested in the 'and so on' actually. So the class of 1992 produced a raft of top talents, many of which had a long career at United. Absolutely. But what other major players broke through from United's academy to become first team mainstays in, say, the 1990s and 2000s?
You will never see another class of 92..
In the last 30-40 years , we had ours .. Barca had theirs.. Ajax had theirs..
Nobody else has had the level of talent like these three had..
We might get 1 -2 players to go play the highest level.. That is all it is..
We have a class academy. Absolutely brilliant. It constantly gets us players for our first team.
I’m not expert on our youth players but I don’t see why a few squad spots can’t be given to them. Instead of bringing on VdB with 10 minutes to go, give Hannibal a shot. Instead of relying on a loan as your third choice LB, give the kid you have a chance. We don’t need to throw unproven kids in giving them key roles or anything but these 4th /5th choice spots, I’ve always felt should be handed to the youth talents who are performing at the time.
The investment that Man City have put into their academy over the last decade makes it the most attractive destination in the north west. If you're not getting the brightest and best coming into the process, then you're not going to deliver on the other side.
Exactly. Why can’t we use our academy to bolster the squad is my addition. Are the young talents coming through that bad ? I doubt it.
So how is TAA not a seasoned EPL player?
The class of 92 did not appear out of thin air. United's tradition of bringing up homegrown talent dates back to the 1950s.
It has become more difficult to break through as the Premier League became more competitive, yet I see other English clubs doing just as well if not better.
At the moment it seems our criticism is levelled at lack of transfer funds or poor use thereof, yet academy performance seems overlooked.
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He also is of course.
My point was Garnacho and Fernandez are both raw academy products whilst Rashford has league experience.
Ok, so the 'and so on' pointed back in time. So which EPL top clubs have done significantly better than United since 1992 then? Or just in the last 10 years? I really wouldn't know.
In case it's not clear: I'm thinking the conclusion here is that people underestimate United's output by focusing too much on failures, and overestimate other clubs' outputs by extrapolating from the few widely known examples - while there isn't actually much extrapolation to be made. (I.e., those few examples are petty much it in terms of high-profile breakthroughs.) And so that, all in all, United's academy doesn't actually significantly underperform compared to other academies. (Which is not to say that it couldn't so better, but that e.g. the thread title is a vast overstatement.)
Wasn't Mainoo in line for an important role this season?
I think the United academy used to be a competitive advantage with regards to key rivals Liverpool, CFC, Arsenal, City. It certainly was at the turn of the century.
To me the aforementioned clubs have all fared better in the last 10 years except for City, who have done just as well (Foden).
The issue I have is none of these clubs were renowned for their academy providing a comparative advantage, as opposed to ours based on Sir Matt Busby's and Sir Alex Ferguson's legacy. Yet we now overpay for a CFC academy product (nothing against Mount, hope he comes good)
So between 1997 and 2010, which major player broke through? Brown, Fletcher, Welbeck, Evans come to mind (and Healy, Gibson, Cleverley, Rossi to a lesser extent). The subsequent 13 years has produced Pogba, Lingard, Januzaj, Rashford, Greenwood, Henderson, McTominay, Garnacho, Elanga, Mainoo, Gomes. I'd actually say we're doing well in this side averaging 1 major potential/year. What we need to get better at is creating a better career path for our prospects who don't make it to our first team. City is far ahead of us here. We've done well this year in this front selling Kovar, Savage, Iqbal and potentially Mejbri/Fernandez for low fee with high sell on and buy back.
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Quite sure twelve Hag would sell his kidney to get prime Fletcher to do the laundry in our starting XI
Similar to how SAF would have loved Rashford, Januzaj, Garnacho & Greenwood. Also, remember that we had to go through several years of "non-prime" Fletcher who was viewed in similar light to today's McTominay before we hit prime Fletcher for a couple of years.
You present a claim that out academy products are ‘so bad’ and ‘terrible’, and that our academy has fallen way behind others. While simultaneously you seem to ignore or not know much about the academy nd other academies available even in threads here, you seem to overlook facts that don’t fit your claim, and avvoid honest comparisons with other academies in place of twisting arguments as if you goal is to win some argument.
If you wonder about the quality of our academy, you must wonder what part they had in bringing the talent of Greenwood to the first team just as much as you wonder about Arsenal and Smith Rowe and Liverpool and Harvey Elliot. Do you think the academy is at fault for Greenwood being a misogynist brute, or Arsenal for Smith Rowe being multiply injured? Does it matter to you if Elliot is in fact from the Liverpool academy or not?
This is not the way to further knowledge. An honest discussion starts with an honest question and humility about the premises.
don't know but pretty sure nothing gets fixed before we change owners, every fan should protest as much as possible and stop buying things from the club and liking shit and so on on social media
Nketiah is a Chelsea graduate.
Elliott was Fulham,
Up to 2021 United had produced the most amount of Premiership football players, which says something about it's academy.
There's an argument to say Chelsea and City's Academy have overtaken Uniteds, but Arsenal's amount of time given to academy graduates has over taken United purely on Saka not having missed a game for god knows how long.
If things didnt turn out they way they did with Greenwood we would have 200m+ assets from the Academy with Greenwood and Rashford. We probably don't spend 80m on Antony and Address our striker situation last season. The academy is doing well as far as I am concerned.
Then you have the rest. Henderson, Mctominay, Garner, Angel Gomes doing well in France, Elanga. They are all prem level players.
Then you have the rest. Henderson, Mctominay, Garner, Angel Gomes doing well in France, Elanga. They are all prem level players.
Not really on board with the OP here. Firstly, two academy players played A LOT last season in Rashford and McT, not to mention that of course Greenwood should have been in that group.
For Arsenal only Saka is a consistent starter. Liverpool only TAA. City...yeah. Chelsea - given how many youth players they purchaes it's really hard to tell who is an academy player versus a random signing, but maybe? Let's see what happens this season.
Top clubs in England don't rely on their acadmies for first XI players. Haven't done for years. City have won the majority of the last 10 titles and have Foden. That's it.
Further unless things have changed a lot in a year, Manchester United's academy had produced more players playing in the prem than any other, and of coures we've fielded an academy grad in the first time squad every match for like 50 some years.
For Arsenal only Saka is a consistent starter. Liverpool only TAA. City...yeah. Chelsea - given how many youth players they purchaes it's really hard to tell who is an academy player versus a random signing, but maybe? Let's see what happens this season.
Top clubs in England don't rely on their acadmies for first XI players. Haven't done for years. City have won the majority of the last 10 titles and have Foden. That's it.
Further unless things have changed a lot in a year, Manchester United's academy had produced more players playing in the prem than any other, and of coures we've fielded an academy grad in the first time squad every match for like 50 some years.
Yea, and As we know, neither Ronaldo nor Rooney where anything faintly resembling academy products. They where bought for top Euro to go straight into the first team.
Fletcher, O’Shea and Brown were heroes to me and an important part of our success. Yet when suddenly they are re-presented as some super stars thrown straight into the first team like pearls on a string.
They came through over a five year period of time (98-03), they had maybe three seasons among them where they were first choice in their positions, and I remember having to defend them countless times from people claiming they where not ‘Man Utd standard’.The difference between them and say, Januzaj, Pereira, Rashford, McTominay and Greenwood (2013-18), was that we won big titles with Fergie, and that the time distance makes people talk about it as some mythic fairytale linked to the narrative of Fergie’s fledgelings. That’s wonderful for a campfire story, but bloody useless for an analysis of how well the academy functions.
You say “and so on”, but what’s the “so on”? We still produce first team players from the academy.
The Glazers and City are snapping to the best young talent. There is a reason why lot of ex players kids, including our own, are at City.
They spent like 250 million on their youth academy, I believe they have a full school there aswell. The set up is insane.
So when we are trying to recruit kids from the area or even wider UK, when you have can send your kids to the academy at City Vs ours, you can see why the talent pool is drying up.
City may not be bringing youth all the way through but they do make a sizeable chunk of change out of the players that sell.
They spent like 250 million on their youth academy, I believe they have a full school there aswell. The set up is insane.
So when we are trying to recruit kids from the area or even wider UK, when you have can send your kids to the academy at City Vs ours, you can see why the talent pool is drying up.
City may not be bringing youth all the way through but they do make a sizeable chunk of change out of the players that sell.
Our much taunted LB 
So funny
So funny
I think that's fair comment. With the Co92 the very fact it's a particular year shows how rare that blend was.
I do think our academy should be delivering skilled, well educated and happy people, MUFC as an institution has that as an obligation to the sport imo.
Liverpool signed Harvey Elliott for pretty big money for a youngster from Fulham
Yeah that got me a funny look on the bus, sniggering to mesel'.Our much taunted LB
So funny
Players need to be given a chance in the first team and not ousted on 1-2 matches. I can imagine a lot of the class of 92 not even being given a chance by the modern manager. I think for example someone like SAF would have given Fernandez a chance at LB rather go out to market for another player. Why have we signed another back up keeper and not promoted Kovar as a backup as another example. Look at places like Dortmund who play youngsters like Sancho and Bellingham. Youngsters know that and prefer to join those clubs knowing they will be given first team football. Hopefully Mainoo can come in and cement his place.
We should just close threads like this, the premise is completely false so any discussion is basically pointless.
Our Academy remains amongst the most productive in World football.
Our Academy remains amongst the most productive in World football.
Saka is class. But as a tandem I’m taking Garnacho and Rashford.
Compared to others it’s still pretty good. This is the issue with United, we’ve had a success story that probably can’t be replicated but we want it to be. Was mostly pure luck that so many brilliant players came up at the same time in the 90s.