Way too grammatically correct for that.
Why Florian Wirtz is perfect for Amorim's system
- Thread starter Raees
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) review both the Everton and Bodø/Glimt victories at Old Trafford. Listen to the guys discuss 2 wins and 7 goals in the last week, analyse of the Amorim formation, focus on Amad and how he is playing, and also take a look at Hojlund, Rashford & Zirkzee – who starts v Arsenal?
Can only do that when you have the money for it and CL football. For right now we don't know how Hojlund and Zirkzee will develop. We don't know how or where Garnacho or Amad will develop. Likewise with Mainoo. We don't know if Mount will turn into a key player. We know for sure that we won't sell any of these players in January or next summer, so you also need room in your squad to buy someone. So there's no use talking about players we can't afford in positions we currently have promising players in and sufficient depth, and with us likely finishing outside of the competition needed to attract the top players.
It's not realistic for our current situation. I'd expect January 2025 to be entirely uneventful and summer 2025 to be quiet, with mainly a focus on the left wing back position and replacing older guys like Casemiro and Eriksen to get better suited midfielders.
I highly doubt we do anything to our front 3 positions until 2026, because that's realistically when we'd be able to move on guys like Rashford and have a better idea on the crop we currently have. Best hope would be Gyokeres at CF if neither Hojlund or Zirkzee impress. But the 2 #10s we have loads of options for now.
Perhaps Bruno off to Saudi could finance some of it?
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Though Madrid signing Wirtz would mean players moving on you would assume, as you have suggested.
I disagree and think we will be active.
The club will operate more sustainably for sure but the myth it’s broke needs to end as it’s nonsense.
You aren’t going to be getting top 4 though if you are scoring 50-60 goals a season. That’s sort of my point.
Also I was speaking in terms of the 2025 summer, not January. Relying on Garnacho/Rashford/Bruno as inside 10’s is a recipe for failure barring a huge jump in production randomly happening.
I don’t disagree that we need midfield (and defensive) help as well, but just trotting out the same attackers hoping it eventually clicks *as of now* next season is a poor plan. We don’t execute close to well enough in the final third consistently and doing so can cover up holes in the team more than any other place on the pitch.
Yes. Bellingham was generally seen as a 10 last season but looking at his heat map, he usually played deeper than a typical 10. IMO, that is because he lacks the low center of gravity to function when there is very few space. His natural position is a bit deeper. For us, Alonso usually lined up with a "anchor" CM (Xhaka) and besides him a more free roaming role both with and against the ball. Usually, Palacios played in that spot and he was allowed to both press relatively risky and attack the box quite often. I think that would be ideal for Bellingham as well who is not very disciplined in pressing situations and obviously has a box presence like few other midfielders.
I think Madrid right now lacks a bit of balance between directness and subtletly. Vinicius, Mbappe, Bellingham, Valverde and Rodrygo are straightforward while Camavinga and Tchouameni are technical but not your typical technical and pressing resistant distributors. It was all knitted together by the brillant Modric and Kroos who were polar opposites to that but with them gone respectively declined, they clearly need to add certain attributes to their team again. If that means that players have to go, they will have to move some of them on one way or another but I don't necessarily think they have to.
Moreover, Alonso is playing a very different line up to Ancelotti. He usually plays a very fluent 3-4-3 formation in which 5 players are rather attack minded. Grimaldo for instance is constantly shifting between a midfield role and an attacking wing back, constantly trying to get into positions for a long shot. I could for instance imagine that Alonso tries Valverde in a similar setup. It might not look that attacking minded on paper but the formation sometimes resembles a 3-3-4 formation.
Me too, it was my first thought that he’d created a new oneNot broke broke but we don't have the money to do what we did the last few windows. We also have owners who don't want a bloated squad and we aren't going to pull a Chelsea here.
So if you list positions and players per position... You gotta realistically sell people first:
- CF - Hojlund, Zirkzee
- CAMs - Garnacho, Rashford, Bruno, Mount, Amad?, Mainoo?
Hoping for a jump in product from Garnacho is pretty reasonable, as he's already undergoing one and even still is missing loads of chances. He's constantly involved in chances, both scoring and creating and I doubt we spend serious money that ends up firmly benching him. That's not what a club like United has ever done, it's dumb business, and again... We don't have the money for it. So at best you're replacing Rashford with someone who will compete and rotate with Garnacho, while the other 10 is Mount or Bruno or Amad. None of those are being sold.
Most likely is we give up on a CF and spend on Gyokeres. But I don't see any scenario for a 10 coming in 2025.
I don’t trust most players coming out of Germany, they are either old, injured and after a final big contract or they are young and overhyped
Remember Havertz. He was getting this hype too. Supposedly he was the new Scholes etc
Remember Havertz. He was getting this hype too. Supposedly he was the new Scholes etc
Wirtz has recovered from a ruptured ACL but he is every bit as good as before the injury. Goes to show his technical ability.
For me the hype is more justified than with Havertz who, by the way, seems to be doing fine with Arsenal.
To many Box to Box, no Redondo in Madrid this days.
PD OFF TOPIC: I want Palacios to gain a place in the NT, I really like his polivalent attributes while still having a brain, I've seen his last two games and he looked quite great, but dunno if he won't be injured again, did he recover his place? or still kind of a super sub like prior to become first team for that relative short period of time before getting injured as usual? I really like for him to have Xabi as a coach.
He’s not streets ahead of Bellingham at all, but then again with the way you rate Wirtz I was expecting some Messi like ascension this season.
I think he'll end up at City to replace KdB.
Fabulous player, who would be brilliant for United.
I’m a big fan of the channel, but some of the conclusions in the video are pretty odd, I must admit.
- Looking at Real, concluding Bellingham would have to be sold to fit him in, and simultaneously including Rodrygo as a false nine when Bellingham played there last season and scored what? 23 goals? If anyone would be playing false 9 it would be Bellingham. With a midfield 3 of Camavinga, Valverde and Wirtz. So I don’t agree with that conclusion at all. In fact I would say a player like Wirtz, given his proclivity to play ale from deep, as earlier illustrated in the video, would be ideal to feed Mbappe and Vinicius and link up with Bellingham.
- Looking at the United team, some bizarre selections with Evan’s starting at LCB (ignoring Martinez and Shaw), Casemiro and Eriksen in midfield, instead of Mainoo and Ugarte. And it can’t be because of injury, because Yoro was included in the side. Complaints of no width, highlighting Amad on the right (and replacing him with Garnacho), when it turns out that Amad has been our best player in that attacking RWB role. And while Dalot was listed as not a player to get the best out of Wirtz, it’s also true that Amorim has mostly played a winger on one side and an inverted defensive wingback on the other. A role with suits Dalot (and Mazroui) and is consistent with Amorim’s history. Davies would be amazing as a LWB but it would also be a departure from Amorim’s preference for an inverted player on each side.
- Last nitpicking point. Is the assertion that Wirtz could transition to being a Regista later in his career, when his second biggest highlighted weakness is his physicality and defensive contribution. He certainly has some of the elements of a regista, but those are pretty big weaknesses for the role. He doesn’t have anything like the long passing range of a Scholes to make such a transition, nor the physicality. What a player like Busquets lacked in physicality he overcompensated for in defensive positioning and reading of the game.
Otherwise, as always, highly detailed and excellent video.
I’m a big fan of the channel, but some of the conclusions in the video are pretty odd, I must admit.
- Looking at Real, concluding Bellingham would have to be sold to fit him in, and simultaneously including Rodrygo as a false nine when Bellingham played there last season and scored what? 23 goals? If anyone would be playing false 9 it would be Bellingham. With a midfield 3 of Camavinga, Valverde and Wirtz. So I don’t agree with that conclusion at all. In fact I would say a player like Wirtz, given his proclivity to play ale from deep, as earlier illustrated in the video, would be ideal to feed Mbappe and Vinicius and link up with Bellingham.
- Looking at the United team, some bizarre selections with Evan’s starting at LCB (ignoring Martinez and Shaw), Casemiro and Eriksen in midfield, instead of Mainoo and Ugarte. And it can’t be because of injury, because Yoro was included in the side. Complaints of no width, highlighting Amad on the right (and replacing him with Garnacho), when it turns out that Amad has been our best player in that attacking RWB role. And while Dalot was listed as not a player to get the best out of Wirtz, it’s also true that Amorim has mostly played a winger on one side and an inverted defensive wingback on the other. A role with suits Dalot (and Mazroui) and is consistent with Amorim’s history. Davies would be amazing as a LWB but it would also be a departure from Amorim’s preference for an inverted player on each side.
- Last nitpicking point. Is the assertion that Wirtz could transition to being a Regista later in his career, when his second biggest highlighted weakness is his physicality and defensive contribution. He certainly has some of the elements of a regista, but those are pretty big weaknesses for the role. He doesn’t have anything like the long passing range of a Scholes to make such a transition, nor the physicality. What a player like Busquets lacked in physicality he overcompensated for in defensive positioning and reading of the game.
Otherwise, as always, highly detailed and excellent video.
Agreed, obvious hyperbole. He’s a different player to Bellingham for a start. In terms of direct running, physicality, aerial presence, goal scoring threat, it’s hard not to argue that Bellingham is miles ahead. In most other categories it’s a close run thing between them. With Wirtz being ahead in terms of his line and defence splitting passes.
It's a strong possibility. If he ends up in Manchester, I'm afraid it would be in blue.
From City's side anyway, he is the one they absolutely must get, if they want to have any chance at maintaining their status at the top. They won't get away with having a team full of Dokus, Savinhos and Lewises, with De Bruyne, Gündogan, Silva fading out and Pep only still being there out of courtesy. They need one of the few next world class players or they will slip into mediocrity. That is Wirtz and they'll try very hard to get him.
The thing is though, he's a kid managed by his dad, and they have handled his career calmly and are informed about the world of European football. I wouldn't be surprised if they are wary of the 115 charges and that this will keep him from committing to City. Fingers crossed City aren't cleared and that a meaningful punishment will put them off the map of potential world class signings for a while.
Right now, I'd bet on him going to Bayern. The Leverkusen boss is trying to block that but I don't think there will be too much he can do if Wirtz and his father make a decision. Real is obviously a possibility, especially if Alonso takes over.
Us, we have little to no chance I would say, no matter how much bravado our fans like to project about it. It can't hurt to try, obviously.
I think this seems to come down to you think Garnacho is a pretty consistent starting caliber player whereas I absolutely do not. His production this year is a bit smoke and mirrors where he racked up 4 involvements against Barnsley and has scored some easy chances in other lesser games but his overall performances over 90 minutes has been pretty crap so far. We can’t afford to keep allowing for players who don’t have a good floor for performances to continuously feature as marquee attackers in our team. It can’t happen. We’ve done it for far too many years with too many players and wonder why our overall teams have always been inconsistent game to game. Now maybe Garnacho has a revelation and Amorim works some magic to where the kid looks completely different as a player by April but until then he is what he is.
For the record I don’t think Bruno and Mount should also just be assumed as top tier options in that spot as well. The former doesn’t fit there ideally (but we can make it work right now) and the latter hasn’t shown himself to be enough of an impact there in almost 4 years as well.
But my overall point is our prospects as a team going into next season are still very capped ceiling wise if we just roll the same attacking options out there while signing a good DM and another CB/LWB or something. There’s just not enough of a floor between all of the mentioned names when I’ve seen almost all of them drop genuine 0/10 level performances in the past year.
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Dont do this to yourselves my dudes. I can see City spending big money to get him. They need a mini overhaul in the summer
Jude it's more box to box, has a Great size, a long stride (that works better with space) and a really very talented and polivalent player...yet Wirtz it's a better dribbler, better passer while carrying the ball, an eye for through balls and great composure in one/twos in tight spaces. He is closer to a real number 10 than Jude. Regarding goals, neither has an extraordinary output, yet Florian so far has a better ratio.
Zehner more than probably rates quite a lot more Florian, because he sees in him, a more intelligent, more pause, more in control player; while at the same time with enough dinamic and dribbling to impose himself or bring other players to play (with or without space). A player with a lesser tendency to mostly make a great pass on the break, or a run on the break, like Jude (Florian can do that too, yet with less pace maybe and less physical presence).
That's why Madrid in part struggles nowadays in the mid, Jude it's more in the mold of a Gerrard than a true dinamic number 10/support striker/second forward and he is surrounded with more or less similar players.
The thing about Wirtz is his attacking decision making is unreal while his technical ability means he can pull it off even under pressure and in the tightest of spaces.
Would obviously be a dream signing but it's not happening, not only because of his options, but also we'd need to upgrade so many other positions before we think about spending it all on upgrading the no 10 position.
Would obviously be a dream signing but it's not happening, not only because of his options, but also we'd need to upgrade so many other positions before we think about spending it all on upgrading the no 10 position.
But in reality it's not, I doubt he's interested in us.
In what positions?
Garnacho is 20. It's dumb to make definitive conclusions and it's also dumb to stop the development. Of course we aren't going to be challenging for the title next season, our general target is 2028 to be at that level. Chasing an instant title is a dumb process as it leads to expensive mistakes and harming the development of your team, rather than accepting it'll take a few years, letting some players develop when you believe they have top potential and addressing the other positions to build around them. For once, I think we are doing this. So guys like Amad, Mainoo and Garnacho in particular aren't going to get blocked by the squad builders.
Bruno is going to be a key starter this season and next season at the minimum. Past 2026 it's hard to say due to age, but it's not living in reality if you think we'll change so much in our squad that Bruno will be sitting on the bench before summer 2026. Mount, fair but his biggest thing is fitness.
It comes with an acceptance of inconsistencies, but also an expectation of proper coaching for once so they can get there.
Bellingham is not “miles ahead“ of Wirtz when it comes to goal scoring. What makes you say that? I believe Wirtz has a better goal (and g+a) ratio than him this season.
Wirtz would be world class in most systems. Every club will be in for him once he’s “available”
Yes
I'm also not that tribal when it comes to player influences. I alwqys rated Sancho way higher than Havertz when both played in the Bundesliga for instance. I've simply seen a lot of Bellingham and think he has always been a bit overhyped despite being a great player, obviously. And the stats back that up as well by the way.If he signs for Madrid, I hope we go for Güler, Ödegaard style deal.
A well worded response, thank you. I both agree and disagree with elements. Certainly the polyvalence of Bellingham is a feature of his worth to a team, as he can effectively play right through the midline, from central midfield, attacking midfield and forward. The assertion, however, that he is more of a Gerrard than a true dynamic 10, support striker or second forward I think is only partially true. While I will agree that Wirtz is a better 10 under the definition of a number 10 being a technical player, good in tight spaces, able to create time and space on the ball to pick the right pass etc., is true, it is also quite a narrow interpretation of the position. And one thing we know for sure is that the definition of what is expected from each role in a team, changes over time.
When Bellingham moved to Real Madrid, I think the assumption was that he would play as part of a midfield 3, in a box to box role. Instead he spent most of his first season playing more like a shadow striker or false nine. And in that role he had the best season of his career, registering 23 goals and 12 assists. He also carried a tremendous work rate from that position and often dropped back to helped create overloads in midfield. I would say, at this point, that the jury is out on what his best position actually is, which is potentially a problem for Jude. My interpretation would be that Madrid should be playing with two fast forwards (Vini and Mbappe), who split to run the channels, and get in behind, creating space for the false nine or shadow striker in Bellingham to come through the middle. This is the same system they played last year, but replaces Rodrygo with Mbappe. Personally, I think that's Bellingham's best position, and where he should also play for England. Wirtz playing as the most advanced and attack minded of a central three (with Camavinga and Valverde), would make one hell of a team in my opinion.
I think England likely would've won the Euros in the summer if they had dropped Kane and played Bellingham as the false 9. I'd have played Grealish or Gordon off the left, Saka off the right, Palmer ahead of Rice and Mainoo. Bellingham, for me, is the very definition of dynamic. His physical gifts are extraordinary, but he also has phenomenal awareness, movement, and technical ability. He really is a freak in so many ways. As a pure number 10, especially in the traditional sense of what the role means, I can see people rating Wirtz higher. But in terms of their quality as players, and impact on the pitch, anyone callign Wirtz "streets ahead" of Bellingham is either being extremely hyperbolic, or just delusional.
Personally, I prefer to subscribe to the school of thought that it's not necessary to engage in these endless and pointless comparisons of players. There are so many metrics by which to judge players, the debate is almost inevitable framed in a biased manner to support the hypothesis that one wants to come to; which is more often than not, purely subjective. They are both absolutely brilliant players, two of the best of their generation I would wager (although there is a long way to go for both), and I would give my left nut for either at United. They'd instantly be our best player and one of the best in the league. In a world where the number 10 position was declared "dead" mot long ago, we have three young players in Bellingham, Wirtz, and Musiala, who are all potentially at their best there and, again potentially, world class. Three very different interpretations of the role too. I find that interesting. You can also add players like Palmer, Foden, Pedri, Simons, who have often come from wider or deeper positions, who are all potentially best in a number 10 role. And that's before we even get to Odegaard, who is one of the best exponents of the role, or Bruno Fernandes. It seems, more and more, that the cycle begins anew and 10s will be back in vogue again. Which is a good thing. 10s are always the best players to watch.
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He is miles ahead of Bellingham at the moment.
I think the whole point of bringing Amorim in this season is to use the rest of it to figure out where we need upgrades. You are probably right about having a quiet January. Summer though will be different. We are bloated on the front line and need to get lean. World class players or world class talent. Anyone else needs to leave.
That's because this season Bellingham has played mainly deeper in midfield or on right midfield. But he scored 23 goals last season when deployed as a forward. And he did it in La Liga and the CL, which is a much higher standard than the BL and EL.
We need Champions League football minimum. This is a wonderkid entering the peak of his powers.
I didn't say anything about "chasing an instant title", I literally said you won't get top 4 if you're scoring in the 50-60 range every year. Top 4 SHOULD be our aim next year, this whole "build and develop for 3 years before trying to accomplish anything" is a false mindset when the reality is a quality coach and a good window of transfers can change a team drastically. I'm also not saying to "stop development" but you seem content on him starting almost every game as a marquee part of our attack just to "develop" when the truth is we haven't seen any sort of run of performances to give him that high of a role. Right now his ability is best suited as an impact sub off of the bench most nights. He's not a Ronaldo-esque talent (or even Vini level) where you just take the lumps because you know once he figures it out he'll be unstoppable. I like Garnacho but the fact is his best attributes currently are how hard he works game to game and his ability to not let failure discourage him. Those are great traits to have for any player, and it's why I think no matter what he'll have a solid career at the top level, but his raw ability doesn't warrant the treatment of "oh well let him get his lumps in" as he drops 5/10's and fails to impact games with quality.
Proper coaching can do wonders, and as I've already stated there's a decent chance one of these young forwards makes a leap forward to being a real quality player who can consistently deliver as they continue being coached by RA and acquit themselves with the new system. But just relying on that development and saying it's all okay if they are inconsistent because you're crossing your fingers Garnacho turns into Eden Hazard and Hojlund is Gyokeres v2 is the sort of blind hope that will see us making threads on why we don't score enough goals a year from now again.
The thing it's that the number 10 notion it's anything but just a single notion. It would fit many diff profiles and taks.
Jude for me should play as Jude, his box to box it's him, it suits him, it's what it seems he feels closer and it's more comfortable.
Yet if Madrid continues to be so disjointed, too much chaotic, the main thing that would help Jude to be closer to a "general" notion that includes that number 10 role: it's more pause in his game, to become more oganizative, less in a hurry box to box fella, to restrain himself and trust his talent to hold the ball without constantly carrying it or going into spaces.
I think that he has the physique and enough talent to be more calm, play with more composure and distribute more the ball. Even not necessarily loosing his presence in the area, yet be smarter on when to do it.
Yet at the same time I watched Veron/transition from a beautiful dinamic 8 (cerezo alike) menace with a mean shot, to a more "lazy"/or languid sort of 5/10 that I digged a lot less, so I would not like that much Jude changing his style, while worse, possibly loosing himself in that task.
Also players that do not played the number 10...meaning 5s or 6s for instance, depending the culture and place, but that played more involved in the management of the tempo of their own team, where: Busquets, Redondo, Rikjaard (when he contained himself), Mauro Silva (diff main atributes and styles with all of them).
In fantasy world Jude can try to do that in order to for instance also add a Wirtz and release him in a more dinamic, dribbler, closer to a forward oriented mediapunta/enganche/10 to do dammage upfront. Florian at the same time, when age advances, can become a more organizative type too.
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He’ll be sold to Bayern for €35 million.
Bundesliga Feather Buddies.
Bundesliga Feather Buddies.
You sure about that?
All stats per 90 minutes for the 23/24 season, all club competitions:| Goal creating actions | Shot creating actions | Progressive Passing Distance | Key passes | Passes into final third | Passes into penalty area | Crosses into penalty area | xAG | Successful take-ons | Progressive carrying distance | Carries into final third | Carries into penalty area | Progressive passes received | |
| Bellingham | 0.51 | 3.85 | 157 | 1.87 | 5.33 (+48%) | 1.75 | 0.12 | 0.21 | 1.95 | 134 | 2.84 | 1.01 | 6.89 |
| Wirtz | 0.91 (+78%) | 6.3 (+64%) | 213 (+36%) | 2.77 (+48%) | 3.6 | 3.11 (+78%) | 0.27 (+125%) | 0.29 (+38%) | 2.99 (+53%) | 157 (+17%) | 4.09 (+44%) | 1.7 (+68%) | 11.6 (+68%) |
What's really remarkable is that Wirtz is ahead of Bellingham in both categories of playmaking: Ball progression stats that are usually dominated by central midfielders (since they don't operate as high up the pitch and have it easier to amass progressive distance because of that) as well as chance creation stats which are usually dominated by attacking players. The difference between them in terms of scoring is actually much smaller than the difference in playmaking.
I would rule out Madrid, even if there are rumors in the future.
Long contract and very expensive.
I see reasonable to create an Mbappe-Vini competition but spend so much to upset our beloved Jude?
What @Fobal says, about fitting him in the middle... I love taking attackers and reinventing them in the middle but it tends to be unbalanced.
We need a profile Casadó, Rodri, Enzo Fernández, Fabián Euro version, etc.
Long contract and very expensive.
I see reasonable to create an Mbappe-Vini competition but spend so much to upset our beloved Jude?
What @Fobal says, about fitting him in the middle... I love taking attackers and reinventing them in the middle but it tends to be unbalanced.
We need a profile Casadó, Rodri, Enzo Fernández, Fabián Euro version, etc.
It'll be interesting to see who turns out to be the better player in him or Musiala. I think they're both great but I enjoy watching Musiala more.
The good thing for Germany is that they're fantastic together:
If I were a Bayern Munich fan, Wirtz would be my dream signing just to see them doing this week in, week out for my club.
The good thing for Germany is that they're fantastic together:
If I were a Bayern Munich fan, Wirtz would be my dream signing just to see them doing this week in, week out for my club.
That's the time to move for Güler.