the best way to do it would be to buy the player and then send them on loan to one of the portugese clubs to develop them and give them regular minutes and champions league/Europa experience.
Why don’t we scout Sao Paulo and other Brazilian clubs instead of overpaying feeder clubs?
- Thread starter UnofficialDevil
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They're not PL proven though. I've no doubt Casimero will be a success because he's undoubtedly one of the world's best DMs but £100m for Antony from the Dutch League? It may well work out but it's a big gamble.
He was €100m, which is £84m. Still a shit ton of money though.
Dunno how really big obstacle is whole work permit, always thought that if we represet fgn player as a big talent, they shouldnt have an issue to get it. Also, guess most of players coming from that part of the world. would rather play in Spain, guess only thing that we could do is to pay and then send on 2 year loans in Dutch/Portugal leagues etc.
He played for two seasons at ajax not one
Its not like we don't try. We signed Amad and Pellestri. Before that we poached talent from Athletico and Barca. We have Garnacho in the wings due to that. We have players who are struggling to make the step up from Championship level to Uniteds first team, even McTominay isn't good enough. My point is we can go all out for South Americans but realistically the odds of them becoming a 100m players are extremely low and not worth the time and effort financially to gamble on them, and the ones that are usually are taken already at 15/16.
Watford have extensive scouting links in South America and signed Richarlison and Joao Pedro at the ages of 16, so it clearly can be done in England but alot of it comes through the pre-existing scouting networks that dominate those lower leagues. I remember hearing stories of Elite clubs trying to cancel Watfords agreements with Joao Pedro, but he agreed to honour the contract under the promise of first team football and a premier league experience.
Watford have extensive scouting links in South America and signed Richarlison and Joao Pedro at the ages of 16, so it clearly can be done in England but alot of it comes through the pre-existing scouting networks that dominate those lower leagues. I remember hearing stories of Elite clubs trying to cancel Watfords agreements with Joao Pedro, but he agreed to honour the contract under the promise of first team football and a premier league experience.
That's the real problem. Our scouts are terrible. We don't know about the younger players that Bayern or Real will get to replace the likes of Casemiro or Ronaldo so we throw money at 30 something stars.
Both had Portugese citizenship iirc. They were both eligible to play for Portugal.
You are all seeing the hits and not the misses, let alone the relative probability of being one or the other depending on which club you move to.
In 2020 Ajax signed Antony and we signed Pellistri. Both had a single season under their belt. Two years later we spunk 100M on the former and have no idea what to do with the latter.
Not a single Peñarol fan would have told you Darwin Nuñez was a bigger talent than Pellistri. None, only a lunatic would. However, Darwin moved to Alavés and then Benfica and has somehow delivered the top/top 3 transfer revenues ever to the 3 clubs he played for.
We can and should be better at spotting and developing talent, but that's not what Manchester United need to excel at.
In 2020 Ajax signed Antony and we signed Pellistri. Both had a single season under their belt. Two years later we spunk 100M on the former and have no idea what to do with the latter.
Not a single Peñarol fan would have told you Darwin Nuñez was a bigger talent than Pellistri. None, only a lunatic would. However, Darwin moved to Alavés and then Benfica and has somehow delivered the top/top 3 transfer revenues ever to the 3 clubs he played for.
We can and should be better at spotting and developing talent, but that's not what Manchester United need to excel at.
Isn't it? That's our biggest problem.
Personally, we should be scouting leagues like Portugal, Belgium or the Netherlands. Most top teams don't sign players directly from South America. There's too many possible issues. Signing a player from SA who's succeeded in Portugal is better because they've shown they can adapt to playing outside of their own country.
They do have scouts in Manchester. Boy Scouts.
Yes. Thanks for the correction but my point stands.
I am more worrying about the state of Amad and Pellestri than any 12 years old Brazilian prospects. These 2 are not cheap finding, they have had some European professional football exposure, and if eventually not good enough to start for Utd., let alone being potential superstar, then how good is scouting network and decision making?
Our biggest problem this last decade hasn't been spotting and developing talent.
However shite we've been at it, we do have the resources to do without that and just buy the finished product.
Problem is we've had no clue what we are playing at and passed on SAF targets to move onto Moyes targets, delivered those to LVG, then landed Mourinho with an LVG side... and so on. Throughout marketability and other non-football considerations have been the prime concern.
That has been our recruitment problem, not lacking the resources or being unable to develop players. We just pissed the money away.
Even when we had CL football under Ole, with hindsight we're not a good destination for rawer talent. No pathway to first team football. Ole hoarding players lead to a bloating squad, but then only used small pool of his own trusted players.
If you're ambitious, you don't go straight to us. Develop and come here later then you get better financial package and a better chance to show case your talent.
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I'm not sure anyone can afford to buy the finished product every time. We've definitely pissed money away but I think part of that is that we don't find any cheaper alternatives. Ajax could charge us 100 million for Antony because, frankly, he's probably the only decent striker we could think of.
These CL/EL Portuguese clubs are no fool. They don't develop players for other clubs for non profit. For example, when they can pick Bebe out of the Portuguese street and sell him for 7 mil, why would they loan in some players to develop and get nothing in return money wise?
While Portguese league looks to be good development ground for South American fresh off the boats, it's also a selling market for raw talent at the right price. They're more profit oriented than result oriented than someone like to think. There is a reason for Mendes' agency network can run havoc with those shady raw talent export to Valencia, Wolves...
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For every hit there's 10 misses. The clear talents from Brazil go for big fees, like Neymar, Vinicius Jr, Rodrygo, Robinho, etc
For every Antony and Luis Suarez Ajax signed there's also a bunch of David Neres, Lisandro Magallan, Orejuela, Cassierra, Cvitanich, Lodeiro, etc
As some have mentioned before, we tend to focus on the hits but behind them there are a bunch of failures. Without mentioning Ajax is a superb club to develop young talent and the eredivise is a league that allows it.
There's no warranty that Antony would have developed the same way if he had signed directly from Brazil to a premier league league team. He most likely wouldn't have been a starter and that would slowed his development. Just see Amad and Pellistri, two years here and their progress is slim at best.
I don't mind signing big talents from Brazil and South America and we should definitely be scouting there. But our focus should be more from middle leagues in Europe like Portugal's and Nederland's, etc where the step up isn't as big.
For every Antony and Luis Suarez Ajax signed there's also a bunch of David Neres, Lisandro Magallan, Orejuela, Cassierra, Cvitanich, Lodeiro, etc
As some have mentioned before, we tend to focus on the hits but behind them there are a bunch of failures. Without mentioning Ajax is a superb club to develop young talent and the eredivise is a league that allows it.
There's no warranty that Antony would have developed the same way if he had signed directly from Brazil to a premier league league team. He most likely wouldn't have been a starter and that would slowed his development. Just see Amad and Pellistri, two years here and their progress is slim at best.
I don't mind signing big talents from Brazil and South America and we should definitely be scouting there. But our focus should be more from middle leagues in Europe like Portugal's and Nederland's, etc where the step up isn't as big.
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The entire revenue model for most Portuguese clubs is acquiring South American talent cheaply, training them up while they get EU citizenship and selling them on at a profit. They're not going to be interested in developing players for other clubs unless they are being paid for it.
It really is an obstacle. Mostly they need international caps or experience in Europe.
Otherwise you would have many Brazilians playing in PL, but also in the Championship and even League One, I imagine.
Yes, they FC Liefering is used like an U21 in the Austrian 2nd devision. Salzburg signs a talent, sends him to FC Liefering, after 1 or 2 years they get the chance to play for FC Salzburg or go out on loan. All the youth players have the same chance.
This is incorrect. Post-Brexit, work permits really are not much of an obstacle any more - if you had read my posts on the previous page you'd have seen that it is now actually pretty easy to sign players from the Brazilian and Argentinian leagues, as long as they are players who play a reasonable amount for their clubs (i.e. haven't spent the last year rotting on the bench). It is also now easier than it was previously to sign players from the Mexican and Colombian leagues, as well as from other South American clubs if they are competing in the Copa Libertadores or Copa Sudamerica.
There have already been a few cases this summer of Championship clubs signing South American players who prior to the post-Brexit rule change would not have qualified for work permits. The most notable of these are 22 year-old Brazilian central midfielder Gabriel Sara to Norwich, and the very promising 18 year-old Colombian attacking midfielder Yaser Asprilla to Watford.
It is not surprising though that it is only really the larger of the clubs in this division who have taken advantage so far, as lots of Championship and League One clubs will simply not have the scouting network or financial resources to make such signings.
As a club, we are unfortunately in a sort of "no-mans land" when it comes to attracting players on good deals.
For the top-talented youngsters, most want to go to clubs where they are more or less guaranteed a lot of gametime, while at the same time play without the massive expectations it is to play for a top club like United. Good examples of these are Haaland and Bellingham before they joined Dortmund.
And when many of these players become world stars, like Haaland, a dysfunctional Man United side without CL football is not an easy sell (although I know there are exceptions).
I really hope we can turn this around - whether it comes from better results and CL football, being able to attract top young talent and develop them in the team or both.
We really need a strategy and a better scouting setup - hopefully the changes we've made this summer will see us benefit.
For the top-talented youngsters, most want to go to clubs where they are more or less guaranteed a lot of gametime, while at the same time play without the massive expectations it is to play for a top club like United. Good examples of these are Haaland and Bellingham before they joined Dortmund.
And when many of these players become world stars, like Haaland, a dysfunctional Man United side without CL football is not an easy sell (although I know there are exceptions).
I really hope we can turn this around - whether it comes from better results and CL football, being able to attract top young talent and develop them in the team or both.
We really need a strategy and a better scouting setup - hopefully the changes we've made this summer will see us benefit.
Good point. luckily thats changed now.
I think it's reasonable that we can afford to buy proven players and not rely on super raw talents who have shown themselves on tier 3 leagues.
Also, we cannot afford these very unproven, super raw talents in our team, because the standards, pressure and expectations are very high compared to playing in Portugal, Austria or wherever. There you can develop, adjust with new continent, its culture, the language etc.
The greatest system would be that we'll have feeder clubs in every reasonable league where it's easy to pick up the talent (Portugal, Netherlands, Switzerland, Belgium, Poland etc) and if they are promising, then we can test them in our team. But dunno how these things work - no big club has these agreements, although City is trying to build sth like this, but cannot see any real results yet.
Also, we cannot afford these very unproven, super raw talents in our team, because the standards, pressure and expectations are very high compared to playing in Portugal, Austria or wherever. There you can develop, adjust with new continent, its culture, the language etc.
The greatest system would be that we'll have feeder clubs in every reasonable league where it's easy to pick up the talent (Portugal, Netherlands, Switzerland, Belgium, Poland etc) and if they are promising, then we can test them in our team. But dunno how these things work - no big club has these agreements, although City is trying to build sth like this, but cannot see any real results yet.
Just have to pray our scouting network has gotten better, we desperately need some good buys that are cheap.
Wasn't there significant visa issues in the UK for non international players from South America/elsewhere? Might be wrong but i think that was obstacle 1.
Okay you're surely just trolling now.
Sorry man, I'm not from the UK and didn't really read this thread completely - just saw your above post on this page. For some reason I always thought one of the biggest obstacles was the work permit/visa. I stand corrected - and no, i wasn't trolling, just misinformed.I think part of the reason is that it was most likely negative 'expected value' in the SAF years.
Why go to all the trouble of trying to unearth a "one in a million" talent from South America, who you then have to integrate into the UK (remember, not that easy when you consider climate, language and cultural barriers as compared with Portugal or Spain) when you could just wait for the cream to rise to the top and buy them for £30m?
Trouble is now, that £30m has become £80m and there are also more clubs competing with us for those players.
Its a club decision really. If we do decide we want to start going down the "bargain hunting" route, we need to think about how we will integrate these players.
Imagine being a teenager growing up in a poor area of Sao Paulo, starting to play a bit of first-team football for your local side and then suddenly finding yourself in the midst of a Mancunian winter, no friends, no family, gets dark at 3pm, don't speak the language, don't like the food...competing with full internationals to get a few minutes in a ridicuslously tough and competitive league.
See....you don't really have to think about these things on Football Manager!
Why go to all the trouble of trying to unearth a "one in a million" talent from South America, who you then have to integrate into the UK (remember, not that easy when you consider climate, language and cultural barriers as compared with Portugal or Spain) when you could just wait for the cream to rise to the top and buy them for £30m?
Trouble is now, that £30m has become £80m and there are also more clubs competing with us for those players.
Its a club decision really. If we do decide we want to start going down the "bargain hunting" route, we need to think about how we will integrate these players.
Imagine being a teenager growing up in a poor area of Sao Paulo, starting to play a bit of first-team football for your local side and then suddenly finding yourself in the midst of a Mancunian winter, no friends, no family, gets dark at 3pm, don't speak the language, don't like the food...competing with full internationals to get a few minutes in a ridicuslously tough and competitive league.
See....you don't really have to think about these things on Football Manager!