Do we think there are players who didn’t make it out there who would be true top PL/La Liga/Serie A players if they had made different club moves? I’m saying as a hypothetical, players we never even heard of or only thought of briefly. Does it make a huge difference? Would Casemiro have made it without his year at Porto? Or does talent always rise to the top regardless if they’ve got to the professional and professional contract status?
Why don’t we scout Sao Paulo and other Brazilian clubs instead of overpaying feeder clubs?
- Thread starter UnofficialDevil
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We prefer dealing with middle men who want million per cent profit margins.
Utd do scout south america and other parts of the world outside of europe. All the big clubs do.
You win some and lose some, I think Amad and Pellestri cost £40 million?
We have essentially tried to replicate the Ajax sao paulo Antony purchase here. We have gone down the sensible buy and loan approach but we may not even get half back, we make this mistake with 5-6 players and we lose out on buying an almost sure thing in Antony.
Also if we go sniffing teams will add the 50 percent united rip off tax because Ed has caused it by overpaying all the time. I think the strategy here is to buy young (very cheap) ala Garnacho or buy at 23/24 when its sure a sure thing which is perfectly fine. Almost every club top club does this, we have just been incredibly shit at this recently.
We have essentially tried to replicate the Ajax sao paulo Antony purchase here. We have gone down the sensible buy and loan approach but we may not even get half back, we make this mistake with 5-6 players and we lose out on buying an almost sure thing in Antony.
Also if we go sniffing teams will add the 50 percent united rip off tax because Ed has caused it by overpaying all the time. I think the strategy here is to buy young (very cheap) ala Garnacho or buy at 23/24 when its sure a sure thing which is perfectly fine. Almost every club top club does this, we have just been incredibly shit at this recently.
The problem isnt identifying them. Most south American prospects are already taken. The big agents has their networks and have been banking and financing them from as early as 10 years old.
United cant go billy big balls and poach them like cowboy. They'd be told to feck off back to Manchester.
Players etc have long been groomed, from early ages they've been subsidized, given stipend, etc up until they're 17ish then they're sold to clubs. Not just any clubs but clubs that can guarantee game time. Game time when they still make mistakes, something we cant afford. There are some mutual agreement. Play our kids, sell them for big money, give us some cut. Win-win.
Finding them is easy. Most agents already have their profile, footages, video compilation etc
United cant go billy big balls and poach them like cowboy. They'd be told to feck off back to Manchester.
Players etc have long been groomed, from early ages they've been subsidized, given stipend, etc up until they're 17ish then they're sold to clubs. Not just any clubs but clubs that can guarantee game time. Game time when they still make mistakes, something we cant afford. There are some mutual agreement. Play our kids, sell them for big money, give us some cut. Win-win.
Finding them is easy. Most agents already have their profile, footages, video compilation etc
Oh no way. I do not doubt their is some under the table dealing but, English players good or bad are the most over priced and over hyped players in the market. Look at the lad Chelsea are supposedly buying for 60M + from Everton meanwhile Sporting got a small 45M for Nunes as an example.
Being English alone adds 20M to a players price tag, no idea why though.
The same could be said for Argentina and River Plate. If you look at the amount of internationally renown Argentine players who came through there and then moved on, including of course Lisandro Martinez who we signed for a big fee this summer from Ajax, Man City's Julian Alvarez and Enzo Fernandez who went to Benfica this summer.
Yes of course some make it and plenty dont live up to their potential at a younger age. But lets not pretend that isnt the case with all our transfers.
Yes of course some make it and plenty dont live up to their potential at a younger age. But lets not pretend that isnt the case with all our transfers.
Is a construction like Salzburg and Liefering possible in England?
Salzburg wanted a professional youth team in the Austrian second division, but it was not allowed (which changed). So Salzburg founded Liefering, a club which only reason of existence is development. They develop players, coaches, analysts. If you are successful, the next step is FC Salzburg.
One important benefit is, that young players can play against men, but without pressure, the only must is not being relegated.
Salzburg wanted a professional youth team in the Austrian second division, but it was not allowed (which changed). So Salzburg founded Liefering, a club which only reason of existence is development. They develop players, coaches, analysts. If you are successful, the next step is FC Salzburg.
One important benefit is, that young players can play against men, but without pressure, the only must is not being relegated.
Work permits if FM has taught me anything.
Talent alone never rises to the top and the decisions you make in your career he ain’t impact how far or low you go.
Some players are confidence players usually technical players and wingers, once that confidence is gone and they lose themselves as a player it’s hard to get back.
Sometimes the environment they go in is not the best or the tactical set up does not bring out the best in their abilities causing their progression to stagnate etc.
The only time talent is too strong not too fail is when your elite/S tier level talent like Ronaldo or Messi.
Ronaldo could have gone to Arsenal instead of United and he would have still Been a GOAT, Messi could have stayed at Rosario and been picked up by another club and still would have been a GOAT. Guys like them are anomalies.
Is that really how Salzburg operates? I ask because it feels like over 50% of the starting team is 18-21 years old so defeats the perfect or a youth team when they tend to buy talents across the world and throw them into the first team.
He never reached that level, but Rooney when we bought from Everton probably falls into that. Likely Rio when Leeds bought him too. But, those guys went for record fees for their age at the time. What Rooney would cost in the current market coming off the 2004 Euro's boggles my mind.
I don't think it's the same case. These players were signed as 15-16 years old. It's much harder to evaluate players at this age. But players playing regular in the Brazilian or Argentinian league should be scouted.
Because we don’t have enough scouts in South America.
Hernandez, Forlan, Kleberson and Pellestri as well. Henriquez and Varela too.
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Salford City could play a partial feeder role for us when they are in the Championship/PL. That may be the financial sweet spot for clubs and there's room in the English market for such a club.
Chicharito is from North America/Central America depending on how you classify Mexico..
We do have a player from Sao Paulo, his name is Casimiro and we're also looking to sign Antony.
You don't say!
We have plenty of scouts in South America.
United scouts trawl South America constantly. We upgraded our scouting network there a few years ago.
They were watching Joao Gomes recently, so are doing exactly what the OP is questioning!!
Gabriel Veron was another that was supposedly being looked at.
The issue with it is for every Neymar found, there's a Mosquito...a player who every big club looks at, scouts go wild for, only to turn out to be painfully average.
They were watching Joao Gomes recently, so are doing exactly what the OP is questioning!!
Gabriel Veron was another that was supposedly being looked at.
The issue with it is for every Neymar found, there's a Mosquito...a player who every big club looks at, scouts go wild for, only to turn out to be painfully average.
Brighton are doing a pretty good job of brining in young South American talent, our focus has definitely been there since Brexit, though we bring in young talent from the EY as well.
Our owner Tony Bloom also co owns Union SG in Belgium and a lot of our players go on loan there first, it's where Caicedo went when we first bought him for example.
But Mac Allister, Caidedo, Sarmiento, Enciso are all young South American talents we've developed or are developing I would include our Colombian international, Alzate but we picked him up from Leyton Orient! A few go wrong like Billy Arce and Percy Tau (South African but the same idea applies) but it's a strategy that's working well for us so far.
Our owner Tony Bloom also co owns Union SG in Belgium and a lot of our players go on loan there first, it's where Caicedo went when we first bought him for example.
But Mac Allister, Caidedo, Sarmiento, Enciso are all young South American talents we've developed or are developing I would include our Colombian international, Alzate but we picked him up from Leyton Orient! A few go wrong like Billy Arce and Percy Tau (South African but the same idea applies) but it's a strategy that's working well for us so far.
We signed a potential top quality player in Amad. Madrid signed Rodrigo for similar cash at a similar age.
Difference is their coaches seem to progress players better than ours when they make the step to first team football. Hopefully this will change with Ten Hag in place I hope.
Amad might has world class abilities to the ball for example, it’s upto the coaches to beef him up a bit physically and improve his all round game.
A massive part of that is players coming into a settled playing style. Cheaper youngsters from across the world I think it’s best they have a stop gap club.
Madrid tend to pay a lot for the best young players and the cheaper prospects like Kubo struggle when they hit later teenage years when it’s time to step up. Very hit and miss.
Difference is their coaches seem to progress players better than ours when they make the step to first team football. Hopefully this will change with Ten Hag in place I hope.
Amad might has world class abilities to the ball for example, it’s upto the coaches to beef him up a bit physically and improve his all round game.
A massive part of that is players coming into a settled playing style. Cheaper youngsters from across the world I think it’s best they have a stop gap club.
Madrid tend to pay a lot for the best young players and the cheaper prospects like Kubo struggle when they hit later teenage years when it’s time to step up. Very hit and miss.
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This thread would be relevant 20 years ago 
For whatever reason, we just don't usually sign SA talents in SA.
Work permits are another reason its difficult.
For whatever reason, we just don't usually sign SA talents in SA.
Work permits are another reason its difficult.
Work permits and now Brexit are the main challenges on why it can prove to be difficult.
What impact does Brexit have on signings from outside of Europe?
How can you join a club in February? Anyway my bad yes it was the summer of 20 not last summer.
Surely money talks though? Offer them top wages, give the agents a big cut, I mean we do that anyway don’t we.
I think this will come into play in the long-run providing the jobs for the lads culture ends as promised.
So many people bought into the Ole-led culture reset we were fed via the media, but it turns out that could've been the most damaging approach under this regime, setting us back another few years.
Scouting is one thing, but until the football structure at United enables a knowledgeable director to support building the squad alongside Ten Hag with effective succession planning, long term views and short-term wins we won't get anywhere. The credibility of the current lot in charge of recruitment and building the squad is already in tatters. Making Edu look like Txiki Begiristain!
The last decade of big announcements, 'marquee' signings and big money have been proven to be a waste of time as a methodology. Woodward thought Galacticos MK3, but Arnold openly says we burnt through a shit ton of cash and yielded nothing. It's a scandal in its own right.
So many people bought into the Ole-led culture reset we were fed via the media, but it turns out that could've been the most damaging approach under this regime, setting us back another few years.
Scouting is one thing, but until the football structure at United enables a knowledgeable director to support building the squad alongside Ten Hag with effective succession planning, long term views and short-term wins we won't get anywhere. The credibility of the current lot in charge of recruitment and building the squad is already in tatters. Making Edu look like Txiki Begiristain!
The last decade of big announcements, 'marquee' signings and big money have been proven to be a waste of time as a methodology. Woodward thought Galacticos MK3, but Arnold openly says we burnt through a shit ton of cash and yielded nothing. It's a scandal in its own right.
Not the past decade, but we have literally built the entire modern foundation of this football club on the class of 92.
There is also the issue of the same reason Bellingham turned down the club: The lack of guaranteed playing time. Not every young talent wants to go on various loans, stability is important.
At one point, you could bring in foreign players with no work permit, send them out to a club in Belgium (e.g. as we did with Royal Antwerp) and then when they qualified for an EU passport you could bring them back to the UK and they'd be able to play under their EU passport.
Obviously now that wouldn't work, since their EU passport wouldn't entitle them to work in the UK. I don't know how many times we actually did that, though. It looks like it was the case for Dong Fangzhuo, if you search passport in this article: https://www.espn.co.uk/football/col...hn-duerden:-the-curious-case-of-dong-fangzhuo.
Very good point, didn't think of that. Still, it's a method we didn't really use all that often before brexit, right?
Yeah, I couldn't really think of any examples other than Dong. I think it was more of a "Football Manager" thing than something Premier League clubs used on a regular basis.
Specialization. Clubs like Ajax are built around “player grower” model.
You need a smaller league to make positive feedback for your players.Players grow better at the clubs which win trophies and play good football. All of this much easier to do in a smaller but developed and competitive league. Ideally, Portugal, Netherlands or Bundesliga(?).
You need a smaller league to make positive feedback for your players.Players grow better at the clubs which win trophies and play good football. All of this much easier to do in a smaller but developed and competitive league. Ideally, Portugal, Netherlands or Bundesliga(?).
Or we buy and loan them to where there is less pressure?
Work permit makes it impossible for us to bring South Americans directly into the PL, at least Brazilians and Argentines. By the time they have the caps needed to get a work permit, they have already been snatched by clubs on the Continent.
I'm sure City's lawyers are working on a solution for this
I'm sure City's lawyers are working on a solution for this
Real Madrid scouted Brazil and signed three players: Vinicius Jr., Rodrygo, and Reinier. But they were outrageously expensive. I'm still not convinced they couldn't have been bought at a later date when they were more proven.
Can’t we buy players without work permit? Send them to Twente or Anderlecht.
Money only talks to a certain point. Players/agents need and do consider early years development against early years money, especially since a young and raw player isn't going to be offered a particularly inflated wage by a big club.
Also something that people need to keep in mind, most of the talents that people are thinking about are scouted and known. Most of these players participates in youth tournaments that are widely scouted by clubs, federations, agents and independents. How they are rated or how the prospect of a move is rated are the differences between two players.
Are people seriously suggesting United don't have a single scout aware of Brazil