I feel this too...
All the things we made fun of our rivals for staring us in the face, we are the joke now. Sad to see.
Why are the standards at one of the biggest club in football (Manchester United) so low?
- Thread starter Amadaeus
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All the things we made fun of our rivals for staring us in the face, we are the joke now. Sad to see.
Are your owners football people? Aren't they more into Polo? You think City's owmers are? Avid historians of the game?
If we sack Ole soon will you revise the above opinion?
I think the owners want success, otherwise they wouldn't be spending much, but because nobody at the club knows anything about football, they aren't capable of setting a clear vision for the club and accordingly they keep making the wrong decisions.
Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho, and Ole, they're all different managers with different approaches to football that required a lot of changes. Nobody does that. We had to go through 3 rebuilds because nobody knows what they're doing. So everytime they try something new and hope it works.
But I don't think for one second that they're happy that they've spend hundreds of millions on players warming the bench. They're just clueless.
Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho, and Ole, they're all different managers with different approaches to football that required a lot of changes. Nobody does that. We had to go through 3 rebuilds because nobody knows what they're doing. So everytime they try something new and hope it works.
But I don't think for one second that they're happy that they've spend hundreds of millions on players warming the bench. They're just clueless.
The problem is the scale of what is required to do that and resonate with the owners, and the method by which it's achieved. It's not actually easy to do, it's easy to say on a forum.
We've got women, elderly, children, tourists rocking up for a game, they're not interested in whether the die hards are protesting - they want to see a football match. What do we do, create an unsavoury environment that stops them getting into the ground? At what point does that cross into something that's just not acceptable?
It might work for one or two games but you have to accept that we had an element of fans of this mindset at the time and it was not enough. There are people not interested in that and there are also people that just have a different perspective on football. We're not unique either, as much as we like to think we are because we're in the Man Utd bubble, we are not, we just have a few extra daytrippers.
It comes from SAF. The Glazers just listen to SAF.
According to the Guardian:
"Ole Gunnar Solskjær will take charge of Manchester United’s game at Tottenham on Saturday after the club followed Sir Alex Ferguson’s advice and gave the manager a chance to turn fortunes around."
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-some-manchester-united-directors-joel-glazer
Please, get off your high horse. Top and his late father are more football people than the Glazers will ever be. Of course it's first and foremost a business, and football ain't the national sport in Thailand, however they showed a real interest. They came to the games as much as they could, took the job at heart, invested not only in the club but also in the city itself, and never let the standards slump the way the Glazers did at Manchester. If you need facts, just look at where we were when they took over and where we are now. Look at our scouting system and how we buy our players and for what purpose. They didn't hesitate to sack Ranieri (our legend in his own right) in the middle of his second season, despite us being qualified for the knockouts in our first ever CL campaign, because there was the danger of a relegation dogfight. And that was the guy who got us our first title ever in his first season. They knew the backlash that would inevitably unfold, yet pulled the trigger anyway. There's a real ambition, a project from the owners to get our club as high as they can and keep us there. Whether we reach that goal remains to be seen, but the thing is that they know what they want and what we want. We all pull in the same direction.
27 years reign is a long, long reign and as much a blessing as a curse. SAF was a genius, one of the greatest football managers the world has ever seen and big are the shoes to fill. Turmoil and instability are to be expected after that, as much as nostalgia. I wrote here a couple of years ago that OGS did a good job as caretaker but should've never been appointed as permanent manager. He simply didn't have the credentials nor the ability to lead one of the biggest clubs on the planet to glory. That he got the job for his achievements as a MU player, not as a manager. That learning on the job isn't acceptable for a club of your status. Plenty of your own fans said the same thing at the time. Everything that's happening now, was foreseen ages ago. Credit to him, he cleared the toxic atmosphere from Jose's end of reign and some of your deadwood, made some good signings, although none of them was an unearthed gem. However and to this day, there's still no pattern, no plan, no print, no definite style of play. There's a distinct feeling of nepotism and favoritism when I see who's and the sheet, week in week out, regardless of the player's form. You've been relying on individual brilliance since he's been appointed. Until this season he could hide behind the rebuild, but now he can't anymore. He never adapted, nor took into account the demands of the modern game. After this summer, he had to be proactive in his style of play, fit all the big names that arrived and been found out.
You're going to sack him, that much is certain, at the end of this season at the latest. But unless there's a drastic change (at least in the mentality) in the upper echelons, you're going to live in the short-term with no real direction nor viable project. You're too big to really fall and have enough money to prevent any kind of dramatic regression, but you won't be the force to be reckoned with that Ferguson made you in his time. Some of you might bang about how Ole managed that cultural reset but imo, his teams, style of play and impact on the pitch are in no way comparable to what it meant to face a SAF team (and I'm old enough to remember the Cantona years). The fear factor is long gone. Times have changed, clubs have adapted and you should too.
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We have this amazing belief that managers never do a bad job which has devastating consequences.
The Glazers are bad at the one thing you'd expect billionaires to be good at, hiring and firing.
Exactly. It's not because the people in charge don't care about winning. Why spend so much if they don't want to win things? The problem is they make bad choices.
In American sports, there is no relegation and every team gets a share of league revenue. A rubbish team in a big media market can still draw massive revenues. We are effectively the same from the Glazers' point of view - at least over their investment horizon.
At Liverpool? Not much. Think of Hicks and Gilette. At Barca, Real and Bayern, they'd be voted out.
Sums it up. We look for positives here and there but the truth is that we are not a well run football club. We hire the wrong managers, celebrate small achievements and prefer pretending things are well rather than aiming for greatness.
Surprised SAF who used to be so ruthless in the pursuit of his goals is supporting a manager like Ole who is out of his depth but at his age and given all he's done for us , can't really blame him. We have to outgrow him as an organization and stand on our two feet ourselves.
Because owners don't see Man United as a football club but a business. They already said performance on the pitch doesn't affect our financial in general.
You can blame Ole, the fans, Gary Neville etc.. for having low standard in the past few years but ultimately owners are the one that making calls and they should be responsible for current state we are in.
You can blame Ole, the fans, Gary Neville etc.. for having low standard in the past few years but ultimately owners are the one that making calls and they should be responsible for current state we are in.
Seems like the fans are the people who would rather be 4th and have Ole/Fletcher/Carrick/etc running the club, than having someone not-Utd in charge, doing things in a non-Utd way.
Mourinho was hated by a segment of the fans from day 1. Really the same with LVG and Moyes (,tho' Moyes had the backing of the English media at least). It will be the same with the next guy, unless they happen to locate Ryan Giggs or someone similar.
It's odd. If they merely want top 4 then they wouldn't have bought 3 big names this summer. Surely we can finish in the top 4 without any spending given how crap Arsenal and Spurs are? So the Glazers do in fact spend like a club that wants to be the best. But the mangers they hire/stick with, the contracts they hand out and their reaction to failing to challenge for 1sr vs their failure to challenge for 4th tells you the opposite. It makes no sense. So we invest like the most ambitious company around but seem to have feck all standards when it comes to performance and quality.
The only thing that explains it is that our decision makers are simply too clueless on the footballing matters and are easily influenced whether by Ole's likeability, Jose's name or SAFs inputs, and fail to ascertain the situation the way a football person should.
It's because we've been the most sentimental club on the continent. We keep giving players we should've sold a long time ago new, expensive contracts because they're "nice" or "loyal servants". Manchester United is no doubt the #1 place to retire for professional footballers. That's nice.
Ole is on the world's longest leash because of his popularity as a player and is a "nice guy" with "United DNA". His mates defend him to death in the media while deflecting blame onto anything else they can grasp onto.
Give the assistant manager position to Carrick and Giggs still fresh out of their retirements because they were popular former players. Give it to Giggseh.
Darren Fletcher is the technical director at age 37, coming in with zero experience.
This is what happens when you let emotion and nepotism take precedence over merit.
Ole is on the world's longest leash because of his popularity as a player and is a "nice guy" with "United DNA". His mates defend him to death in the media while deflecting blame onto anything else they can grasp onto.
Give the assistant manager position to Carrick and Giggs still fresh out of their retirements because they were popular former players. Give it to Giggseh.
Darren Fletcher is the technical director at age 37, coming in with zero experience.
This is what happens when you let emotion and nepotism take precedence over merit.
Strap up for a long title drought if this is how we are run. Incompetence sets in for the long run. 8 years will easily become 20 if we don't act fast.
All of this is spot on. Look, there is a place for ex players of course , the likes of bayern hire them and inculcate into the system. But first of all you must have a competent environment that aims for excellence and then you groom whoever you want. Our starting position, which begins with the board/ceo/manager from a place of incompetence. It's like chucking in 18 year Olds into the team when your spine is flaccid I.e Arsenal of today.
The thing is, at Bayern, they don't just allow any and all former players to apply and just take on a management role. Kahn did an MBA, then did graduate work at Harvard and Stanford. United is just an accounting operation to move debt around. For that reason, I don't want any former United players associated with any of the day to day running of the team. And for that to happen, the club will need to be sold.
That's obviously the problem and my point being they still refuse to address it after so many years of mediocrity. So either Owners' too clueless to care or the restructuring job is actually massive and they can't afford it.
United hasn't reached Arsenal's level yet that for sure. Glazers want club to success but at what cost? They don't want to answer that question.
Given they're not football people maybe it's easy to convince them that our 2nd place was an incredible achievement and hence Ole is well on his way to big things? I genuinely wonder if things like actual performances on the pitch make it into their heads or they're oblivious to anything but league standing, CL finish, revenue and profit. Seems hard to believe that the heads of the organisation would not but with the way we are run, it seems a possibility.
When you put it like that
It's the third time I am saying this, but the Glazers ask SAF and they listen to SAF.
And SAF said that we should give another chance to Ole.
It's because Manchester United has been turned into a cult. Results and performances don't matter as long as we do it the United way. It started with hiring the very very absolutely unqualified demagogue with no resume and no philosophy -- except a nice slogan "The United Way" (aka Make United Great Again) -- as the manager. It goes down from there to hiring more unqualified ex-players and recruiting English players.
A cult. The rot was easily identified a long time ago but they turned a blind eye to it because he's doing it "The United Way". How do you explain some are still clapping with him after being served up the worst humiliation in recent history.
A cult. The rot was easily identified a long time ago but they turned a blind eye to it because he's doing it "The United Way". How do you explain some are still clapping with him after being served up the worst humiliation in recent history.
I love the Legend to bits but at his age he really shouldn't be a deciding factor. We need fresh ideas and professionalism not hanging on to old ones and acting on emotion.
And even if considering Man United only as a brand, surely getting spanked at home by your biggest rival, losing finals and going trophyless for 3 years is bad for the brand?
Varane is considered bargain, and fit our need. He seem like to be the only genuine planned signing for this window.
Sancho was last year signing got dragged to this summer. And through sheer panic seeing us wasted money on 2 young wingers that is not in first team plan for immediate future. With that in mind the spending for these 2 window, they would even out and look like just normal spending for team trying to keep pace for top 4. Even Arsenal and Tottenham look like they're spending similar in fee.
Ronaldo is a commercial money printer for them. When it comes possible, they went for it. Before signing Ronaldo, the feeling is that we had done with our summer window, since we're unable to move some undesired players to fund further transfer for Trippier and a CM. And even then we have to sell Dan James to balance the book.
So in a sense, this window exceeded the expectation, but it also raised the expectation for the team, leaving no room for excuses anymore. It's accident driven by money men looking at balance book and possibility to generate more hype and money. It seems to become a curse for Ole, but an ambition manager would see it as good headache to relish the challenge.
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The sooner we distance ourselves from the past and this "culture reset" or whatever, the better. Forget class of '92, forget this festering obsession with doing things the way we've always done them. If you don't evolve, you go the way of the dinosaur.
Agree
Well said.
But I feel we're going the way Liverpool did all those years. The dominance both clubs enjoys that built around certain great managers had become the curse once they left their posts. Too used to doing thing in a certain way that there is resistance to change. Until it's utterly beaten down to pulps, it's gonna hinder any progression.
This is the sad truth, look at how many managerial failure Liverpool had from Benitez until they got Klopp, or Madrid from Del Bosque until they got Capello, or Chelsea from Mourinho's first stint until they got Ancelotti. I don't know what happened in this club that makes it so hard for everybody to admit that bad managers exist and giving them more time is not the solution.
All this elitism about 'supporting' the managers no matter what is just pure elitism that obviously is detrimental to the club. Okay we were patient with Sir Alex and it turns to gold, but that's a very very special case, not the norm. In most cases, once you see signs of a club not progressing, than you need to change things.
The point is that the Glazers do not decide without asking people with deep football knowledge. Most posters on this thread blame Glazers because they are not "football people", and they think that this is the reason that "standards are low". Well, obviously this is not what happened here, they took advice from SAF, they did what SAF suggested, it is like SAF himself made this decision.
Now, if you want to blame Glazers that they listen to SAF, or if you want to blame SAF that "his standards are low" ... then sorry, I am out!
That's an odd way to look at it.
- Firstly, Sir Alex was the greatest football manager of all time. He was an absolute phenomenon in his area of expertise I.e the football side. However he did not make his name as a DoF /CEO and has no pedigree in picking managers. The one manager he did pick (David Moyes) was the biggest disaster at a big club in modern football. So let's appreciate that every task requires its own skill and acumen and while SAF was the greatest at what he did, that doesn't mean that picking managers is something he's particularly great at. We have a small sample size which did not turn out well.
- Secondly he's 79 years old. The world moves on and so has football. He might be an absurd football mind that remained successful into his 70s but everybody falls out of touch with the game, and it's hardly his full time job to work within the game. There's a big difference between SAF in his own era working 18 hours a day to achieve success vs SAF now nearly 80 years old and somewhat of an observer.
- Keeping the above in mind, it's absolutely clear as to why fans have an apprehension as to his influence. I'm not against him being on the board but we need a lot more people with an understanding of modern football to also be there to present their take imo.
- On the point of standards being low, standards are set by your board and your manager. If your board picks poor managers you'll end up up poor standards. It's as simple as that. We have Ole as out manager somebody nobody wants and everybody wants us to keep so obviously standards are low. The notion that because SAF was consulted that means standards are high is ridiculous.
- Finally, I love the man but let's face it, everyone makes mistakes and everyone gets some things wrong. So let's not pretend as though an all seeing and knowing being has been consulted and hence our decision must be right. Refer to my first point.
I am not. Most Ole ins I know on a personal level tend to be supporters who had extensive contacts with United during SAF time. That means red carpet treatment whenever they go to Manchester, unrestricted access to Carrington and other stuff I can't divulge in here else I put people in trouble. These perks declined as soon as Moyes appeared at the door and ended completely under LvG and Mou. Now they are back with Ole. No wonder why they are defending him tooth and nail
SAF and the rest of class of 92 love having influence at the club. Foreign managers would keep them at an arm's length
Many great points here. As I see it, we have several flaws and made several mistakes to get to this point. One thing we could do, though, is expectations from fans. But we don't have that and you can see that in this forum and the discussions here. A month ago, it was still 50/50 if Ole should stay or go despite three years of shit football and money splashed all over. I saw a match in another country where the fans demanded an apology and demanded to talk to the players. After the game, several players came to the fans and they discussed. The fans demanded a change, that the richest team in the country should at least show some heart on the pitch. The club in question is in third place, only a point or two from the top. But they demand more. They demand that the players show their hearts out, show what it means to play for this club. It's called supporter influence and having expectations on the team. We don't. If they lost 5-0 at home to their rivals, the fans would be on the pitch, and the manager would be sacked on the spot. Here, we applaud Ole, we still discuss if he's the right man. Try to take it in. We lose 5-0 at home to our rivals, none of the players seem to give a shit, neither does the manager who still isn't capable or even trying to put out a synchronized press. Look what happened with the Super League when we put pressure on the Glazers and the club. Now, we just keep applauding, and when we do, they think it's all fine.
Owners don't give a feck as long as the money keeps flowing and Ed and the board are simply terrible at their jobs.
I thought this nightmare would end after the Liverpool trashing, but somehow these arseholes managed to make it even worse.
The most shocking thing is that if half the leaks we've seen the past few days are true, then Ole should have been sacked a long time ago.
I thought this nightmare would end after the Liverpool trashing, but somehow these arseholes managed to make it even worse.
The most shocking thing is that if half the leaks we've seen the past few days are true, then Ole should have been sacked a long time ago.
That culture reset which was mentioned in one of the leaks is doing my head in. It's basically trying to recreate everything that happened and successes under Fergie. Instead of leaving that in the past and evolve we're trying to pretend it can all happen again despite the fact world and football have moved on. They're keeping Ole in a blind faith he'll be a new Fergie and Fergie is backing him, give jobs to our ex players to make it look more like in Fergie times. Its completely crazy, cultural reset should be just that, a reset, starting from zero or at least changing the culture to better and more modern, not trying to live up the past again.
I love Ole, Carrick, Fletcher, Rio.. But Ole should leave, Carrick is his assistant without any experience before taking the job, similar with Fletcher, Rio isnt going to say anything bad against Ole but is ready to speak up against the higher echelons. Neville is taking all that not saying a bad thing about his mate to whole another level at which nobody knows what he actually means and he's speaking a lot of bollocks.
Let bygones be bygones ffs.
I love Ole, Carrick, Fletcher, Rio.. But Ole should leave, Carrick is his assistant without any experience before taking the job, similar with Fletcher, Rio isnt going to say anything bad against Ole but is ready to speak up against the higher echelons. Neville is taking all that not saying a bad thing about his mate to whole another level at which nobody knows what he actually means and he's speaking a lot of bollocks.
Let bygones be bygones ffs.
We need the best of the best managing and coaching the team. Not friends fc.
we got the squad to do it.
we got the squad to do it.