I know the OP wants in-depth posts, and has got a lot of them, but in this instance, brevity is the best avenue, and simply put: Ole is just in over his head on every level.
It's no more complex than that.
It's no more complex than that.
Why are Man United playing worse than last season?
- Thread starter Bearded One
- Start date
On this, we're such a funny club. Two years back we had Martial, Rashford and Greenwood looking like such a promising front three. You'd think that adding Sancho, Ronaldo and Cavani to that would put us right up there but instead our pressing is worse than ever, Martial has gone to pieces, Sancho hasn't settled and Ronaldo-Greenwood have feck all chemistry.
This is the correct answer. With the new signings and added pressure, Ole has had higher expectations and a need to show his tactical excellence, which he obviously simple does not have. Basically what many have been saying about him has gotten exposed. He is comfy playing safe-ball which will never take us past being a top 4 team. Asking for anything of someone of his level will give you the results we've seen.
We need a proper coach.
The reason the Ronaldo transfer is an issue is that it raised the expectations to a level which was far above the squad and staffs capabilities. If everyone on here was picking the three or four most significant weaknesses in the team at the end of last season I’d be very surprised if a cf would have got more than 10% of the votes.
Signing Ronaldo was great for creating media interest and shareholder value and for fans like me who saw his first debut and watched him grow up in those early years it gave a warm, fuzzy feeling but apart from some lazy pundits who seem to get paid by the drunken word, I doubt there were many people who sat down and thought ‘that’s exactly what this team needed’.
So, while Ronaldo has raised expectations, and pressure, to a new high he’s not the main reason for the poor start. That can be attributed more to the lack of identity and a cohesive plan. If you watch Liverpool or City you know what to expect from them when they recover the ball. With united you often don’t know what will happen next, although you could argue that you do know that whatever it is it won’t happen quickly.
thevother thing that seems to have happened is that Ole has listened to the critics and tried to play more expansive football in the bigger games. Such a significant change of style requires a lot of coaching and practice but both seem conspicuous by their absence.
1. Ole's tactics are very basic which makes us predictable and easy to counter. After three years everyone knows what United are all about.
2. Our coaching is horrendous. We've been facing set pieces issues for months and no one had been able to sort that. Now imagine these guys facing the complexity of having to deal with a bunch of tired players fresh from the Euros. Do they have the experience to deal with multiple groups of players on different gears in terms of fitness etc?
3. This side is ridiculously unbalanced. We've got 11 players vying for 4 roles (Pogba, VDB, Bruno, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Sancho, Cavani, Mata, Jesse and Ronaldo). These players have huge egos and have only accepted to remain/sign for us with the reassurance that they would play regular football. Once that didn't happen Ole came out as a liar and competition for places had dented the teamwork even further
4. Smiling, hugging and talks of progression and us being fantastic might have worked when we were busy signing players from Leicester, Swansea and Palace. It won't stick with WC players at the wrong side of their career like Ronaldo and Varane. These players want trophies and will probably remind the sensation of winning such thing to players like DDG, Bruno, Pogba and co.
2. Our coaching is horrendous. We've been facing set pieces issues for months and no one had been able to sort that. Now imagine these guys facing the complexity of having to deal with a bunch of tired players fresh from the Euros. Do they have the experience to deal with multiple groups of players on different gears in terms of fitness etc?
3. This side is ridiculously unbalanced. We've got 11 players vying for 4 roles (Pogba, VDB, Bruno, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Sancho, Cavani, Mata, Jesse and Ronaldo). These players have huge egos and have only accepted to remain/sign for us with the reassurance that they would play regular football. Once that didn't happen Ole came out as a liar and competition for places had dented the teamwork even further
4. Smiling, hugging and talks of progression and us being fantastic might have worked when we were busy signing players from Leicester, Swansea and Palace. It won't stick with WC players at the wrong side of their career like Ronaldo and Varane. These players want trophies and will probably remind the sensation of winning such thing to players like DDG, Bruno, Pogba and co.
I’m not too worried about Sancho not having settled yet. It’s pretty normal for players from the Bundesliga to settle quickly into the Premiership. Look at Werner & Havertz if you need examples
In my opinion, goes right back to SAF / David Gill leaving at the same time and Moyes clearing out the backroom staff.
Leaving Woodward with almost total control.
Since then poor football decisions - recruitment / appointments / contracts
Now low expectations - Too many people without proper experience, learning on the job: OGS, Carrick, McKenna, Fletcher, Murtough etc etc.
None of whom should be anywhere near senior positions at the club.
Haven't got the experience, character or know how to solve the on-field problems.
Incredible really for one of the biggest clubs in the world. Crass management...
Leaving Woodward with almost total control.
Since then poor football decisions - recruitment / appointments / contracts
Now low expectations - Too many people without proper experience, learning on the job: OGS, Carrick, McKenna, Fletcher, Murtough etc etc.
None of whom should be anywhere near senior positions at the club.
Haven't got the experience, character or know how to solve the on-field problems.
Incredible really for one of the biggest clubs in the world. Crass management...
We were shocking last season for virtually 45 minutes of every game.
Going behind and winning every game wasn't sustainable. We've had a slight drop of defensively so instead of going behind 1 we now go behind 2, and Bruno isn't playing like the best player in the world anymore so we just aren't able to rely on his brilliance to force a come back.
I really don't think the levels are that much different to last year as a whole.
There's a video on YouTube were Conte describes to Thierry Henry why he prefers to kill a dissentful player.
He said "if the manager closes his eyes and doesn't want to see the situation, you lose the changing room"
I don't think Conte is a good fit for United, but he is right about this. When DVB was warming up before Telles got injured in that Villarael game and Ole subbed on Fred instead. The image of Bailly tapping DVB was telling. As someone who has staff who report into me I recognised straight away Ole has a big issue way before reports came out. I guessed the issue is probably wider than just those two.
The issue is tactics and personnel we can point to that, all managers might face issues throughout the season. Pep did last year at the start and revamped, Klopp did. But because of the mood of the dressing room, the players aren't looking to Ole to fix it, especially when he does stuff like plays injured Maguire over a fringe player. You are watering seeds at that point, when reports came out about the Villarael team talk combined with Maguire celebrating his goal by himself. It showed that the dressing room is split and his captain isn't respected.
Yes we can point to tactics, but what really done him was his management of probably a group of 3 or 4 players who had problems with him. He should've pulled them aside and spoken to them alone. Then infront of the rest of the team you let them speak whatever seeds he had planted privately would've been broadcasted by the players themselves to the rest of the team. This last paragraph is all conjecture but its an example how to tackle managing people head on.
I think Ole buried his head in the sand a bit, that villarael team talk reports, if true is a indicator for me.
He said "if the manager closes his eyes and doesn't want to see the situation, you lose the changing room"
I don't think Conte is a good fit for United, but he is right about this. When DVB was warming up before Telles got injured in that Villarael game and Ole subbed on Fred instead. The image of Bailly tapping DVB was telling. As someone who has staff who report into me I recognised straight away Ole has a big issue way before reports came out. I guessed the issue is probably wider than just those two.
The issue is tactics and personnel we can point to that, all managers might face issues throughout the season. Pep did last year at the start and revamped, Klopp did. But because of the mood of the dressing room, the players aren't looking to Ole to fix it, especially when he does stuff like plays injured Maguire over a fringe player. You are watering seeds at that point, when reports came out about the Villarael team talk combined with Maguire celebrating his goal by himself. It showed that the dressing room is split and his captain isn't respected.
Yes we can point to tactics, but what really done him was his management of probably a group of 3 or 4 players who had problems with him. He should've pulled them aside and spoken to them alone. Then infront of the rest of the team you let them speak whatever seeds he had planted privately would've been broadcasted by the players themselves to the rest of the team. This last paragraph is all conjecture but its an example how to tackle managing people head on.
I think Ole buried his head in the sand a bit, that villarael team talk reports, if true is a indicator for me.
I agree we were lucky so often it was only a matter of time before it ran out. I agree with the other guy too, Ronaldos arrival has taken it up a notch and exposed everything that most of us could see. I am not blaming Ronaldo. I think we should be at his level. I don't think we needed him and other positions were a priority. The club and board were happy as a top 4 team though. This is where the friction is for me. Bringing in world class players and expecting them to have top 4 management as has been said. Ronaldos arrival has definitely rocked the boat but this is a good thing I think.
It's not just this season.
We were quite poor towards the end of last season.
We were quite poor towards the end of last season.
I believe we are looking at numerous issues all coming to a head at the same time.
1. COACHING
We brought in the best CL player ever and defender that has won it all. We also added a youngster who has been coached by Man City and Dortmund. These three are used to elite level coaching and preparation. It is not unthinkable that these three showed up to practice, saw the stark contrast between earlier coaching and what they get today, and told their teammates what they are used to. It is also entirely possible that the coaching is really good, but that they lack the experience to adapt and change the system, or a lack of ability and experience to get players on board.
2. ELITE MENTALITY
Ronaldo changed the squad. A lot of players who were happy churning a long with half-good team performances suddenly started to ask questions - why aren't we playing more attacking, why aren't we pressing, why aren't we more prepared. This is where managerial experience and coaching experience comes into play. Unfortunately the managerial staff couldn't manage the situation and you wind up with players frustrated and annoyed. They probably looked around the dressing room and realised that the team is far too good to rely on defensive counter-attacking tactics.
3. TEAM SELECTIONS
Van de Beek has never had a chance to prove himself. Maguire plays despite not training. Ronaldo, 5 goals in 5, is benched. Fred plays despite performing badly. Telles is barely getting a look in despite the fact that our tactical analysis sheets show that Shaw loses the ball the most out of all of our players (Howson flipped through one on his stream). Sancho, a very expensive player with bags of talent, isn't playing. There are a bunch of players in the squad who basically never play, regardless of how shit certain players perform. Lingard went from being mint at West Ham to a liability for us and rarely plays.
When the team doesn't get results, players are ignored and bad performances are accepted, things are going to blow up in your face. This is compounded by the change in mentality that elite players such as Ronaldo and Varane bring to a squad.
4. GAME MANAGEMENT
Ole and his staff have always been slow to react during matches. It seems like they need to analyse and talk things through excessively before they intervene, which leads to unnecessary mistakes. Players can see this, they understand what is wrong - and they get impatient - which is only natural. When you win games these things don't matter, they are minor annoyances, but when you start losing they become glaring issues.
5. BALANCE
The balance of our team is all wrong. Our left flank is exposed 90% of the game. Our midfield is disconnected from the forward line, defenders are having to cover 2- 3 positions at once. It is a mess. Meanwhile we have the players to do something about it, but the management team just doesn't want to, stubbornly sticking to the same formation and the same player combinations. We need forward momentum in midfield, but we don't even try playing Garner or Van de Beek there. We need work-rate on the left, but we don't even try to play Lingard or any of the youngsters there.
6. VAN DE BEEK and LINGARD
If anything would convince a player that the manager isn't being fair it would have to be Ole's treatment of Van De Beek. Blocked a move for him, promised him game time and then continues to flat out ignore the boy, it is mental. Then you have Lingard, who was really good for West Ham, come back and barely play, he was also blocked from a move.
7. MEDIA
Regardless of what any professional says, players and staff read what the media writes about them. The players have seen numerous articles about how shit Ole's tactics are, how bad the coaching is, pundits tearing into performances and preparation. Players don't live in a vaccum, and neither does the staff. These things play a part too, causing people to doubt, second guess themselves and drive people utterly mad. Against the onslaught of the press you need a ton of experience to handle the pressure, navigate the media room, divert attention and keep players and staff from becoming distracted. Which again is where we fail - there's not enough experience among the staff to deal with this. Ole's job is also to navigate the media landscape and protect his players, but not at the expense of his ability to lead the team. The shitshow of articles after the Liverpool defeat shows how incapable we are of controlling the media narrative. Very few clubs in the world will have more media attention than Man Utd, and you need an experienced head to deal with it all.
8. HIRING POLICY
We seem to forget that we are an elite club, and have to deal with the expectations that come with that. There is a real problem when an elite club is accused of having too little experience and too many staff learning on the job - and it actually rings true. That speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding of what a viable appointment in an elite club is. If we hire people who can have that accusation levied against them, they are most likely not the right people to hire. They could be fantastic talents with bags of ability, but you need to portray competence outwards, for that you need experience and established names and you can't so that with everyone "learning on the job". That is not an accusation the media should be able to make. The fact that they can, and we think that's fair, is a sign that we've made mistakes in who to hire.
We need to accept that as an elite club we will be held to a different standard than most clubs and media coverage will affect our club, and therefore we actually have to keep that in mind when we make appointments. We should hire like a fortune 500 company, head hunt, scout out potential future directors, poach talented coaches from other clubs, and pay to get the best - and those widely acknowledged to be the best.
1. COACHING
We brought in the best CL player ever and defender that has won it all. We also added a youngster who has been coached by Man City and Dortmund. These three are used to elite level coaching and preparation. It is not unthinkable that these three showed up to practice, saw the stark contrast between earlier coaching and what they get today, and told their teammates what they are used to. It is also entirely possible that the coaching is really good, but that they lack the experience to adapt and change the system, or a lack of ability and experience to get players on board.
2. ELITE MENTALITY
Ronaldo changed the squad. A lot of players who were happy churning a long with half-good team performances suddenly started to ask questions - why aren't we playing more attacking, why aren't we pressing, why aren't we more prepared. This is where managerial experience and coaching experience comes into play. Unfortunately the managerial staff couldn't manage the situation and you wind up with players frustrated and annoyed. They probably looked around the dressing room and realised that the team is far too good to rely on defensive counter-attacking tactics.
3. TEAM SELECTIONS
Van de Beek has never had a chance to prove himself. Maguire plays despite not training. Ronaldo, 5 goals in 5, is benched. Fred plays despite performing badly. Telles is barely getting a look in despite the fact that our tactical analysis sheets show that Shaw loses the ball the most out of all of our players (Howson flipped through one on his stream). Sancho, a very expensive player with bags of talent, isn't playing. There are a bunch of players in the squad who basically never play, regardless of how shit certain players perform. Lingard went from being mint at West Ham to a liability for us and rarely plays.
When the team doesn't get results, players are ignored and bad performances are accepted, things are going to blow up in your face. This is compounded by the change in mentality that elite players such as Ronaldo and Varane bring to a squad.
4. GAME MANAGEMENT
Ole and his staff have always been slow to react during matches. It seems like they need to analyse and talk things through excessively before they intervene, which leads to unnecessary mistakes. Players can see this, they understand what is wrong - and they get impatient - which is only natural. When you win games these things don't matter, they are minor annoyances, but when you start losing they become glaring issues.
5. BALANCE
The balance of our team is all wrong. Our left flank is exposed 90% of the game. Our midfield is disconnected from the forward line, defenders are having to cover 2- 3 positions at once. It is a mess. Meanwhile we have the players to do something about it, but the management team just doesn't want to, stubbornly sticking to the same formation and the same player combinations. We need forward momentum in midfield, but we don't even try playing Garner or Van de Beek there. We need work-rate on the left, but we don't even try to play Lingard or any of the youngsters there.
6. VAN DE BEEK and LINGARD
If anything would convince a player that the manager isn't being fair it would have to be Ole's treatment of Van De Beek. Blocked a move for him, promised him game time and then continues to flat out ignore the boy, it is mental. Then you have Lingard, who was really good for West Ham, come back and barely play, he was also blocked from a move.
7. MEDIA
Regardless of what any professional says, players and staff read what the media writes about them. The players have seen numerous articles about how shit Ole's tactics are, how bad the coaching is, pundits tearing into performances and preparation. Players don't live in a vaccum, and neither does the staff. These things play a part too, causing people to doubt, second guess themselves and drive people utterly mad. Against the onslaught of the press you need a ton of experience to handle the pressure, navigate the media room, divert attention and keep players and staff from becoming distracted. Which again is where we fail - there's not enough experience among the staff to deal with this. Ole's job is also to navigate the media landscape and protect his players, but not at the expense of his ability to lead the team. The shitshow of articles after the Liverpool defeat shows how incapable we are of controlling the media narrative. Very few clubs in the world will have more media attention than Man Utd, and you need an experienced head to deal with it all.
8. HIRING POLICY
We seem to forget that we are an elite club, and have to deal with the expectations that come with that. There is a real problem when an elite club is accused of having too little experience and too many staff learning on the job - and it actually rings true. That speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding of what a viable appointment in an elite club is. If we hire people who can have that accusation levied against them, they are most likely not the right people to hire. They could be fantastic talents with bags of ability, but you need to portray competence outwards, for that you need experience and established names and you can't so that with everyone "learning on the job". That is not an accusation the media should be able to make. The fact that they can, and we think that's fair, is a sign that we've made mistakes in who to hire.
We need to accept that as an elite club we will be held to a different standard than most clubs and media coverage will affect our club, and therefore we actually have to keep that in mind when we make appointments. We should hire like a fortune 500 company, head hunt, scout out potential future directors, poach talented coaches from other clubs, and pay to get the best - and those widely acknowledged to be the best.
We have too many attacking players and we’re leaking goals like a sieve.
Too often we end up playing a gung-ho 4-2-4 similar formation, which for some reason struggle to create chances.
The attacking bit is engraved in our «united dna» but it’s come to the point where it’s damaging. We need to try and shore things up and then the goals will come as a result. The thing is we don’t have any specialist defensive mids so it’s not straight forward.
A switch to 4-3-3 would do us a world of good imo.
I think a midfield of VDB, Fred and Pogba would be the best way to go for now, and then get a specialist defensive mid replacement for Fred in the summer. Plenty of attacking DNA in that trio, and could be solid enough if coached properly.
Attacking players should be similar to Liverpool, one hard working focal point striker and two running the channels and behind.
We’re trying to keep Bruno, Pogba, Sancho, Greenwood, Rashford, Ronaldo, Cavani, Lingard and Martial happy when there’s only room for like three of them in the first XI, at least in a 4-3-3.
Get rid of Martial, Mata, and at least one of McT and Fred. Ronaldo is a problem to be solved in all this as he’s no doubt a very good goalscorer, but he doesn’t have the workrate off the ball which is damaging us somewhat. Rotation with Cavani would be the sensible thing to do, where Ronaldo play against Norwich and Cavani play against Liverpool, but I guess Ronaldo wouldn’t be too happy about that.
Too often we end up playing a gung-ho 4-2-4 similar formation, which for some reason struggle to create chances.
The attacking bit is engraved in our «united dna» but it’s come to the point where it’s damaging. We need to try and shore things up and then the goals will come as a result. The thing is we don’t have any specialist defensive mids so it’s not straight forward.
A switch to 4-3-3 would do us a world of good imo.
I think a midfield of VDB, Fred and Pogba would be the best way to go for now, and then get a specialist defensive mid replacement for Fred in the summer. Plenty of attacking DNA in that trio, and could be solid enough if coached properly.
Attacking players should be similar to Liverpool, one hard working focal point striker and two running the channels and behind.
We’re trying to keep Bruno, Pogba, Sancho, Greenwood, Rashford, Ronaldo, Cavani, Lingard and Martial happy when there’s only room for like three of them in the first XI, at least in a 4-3-3.
Get rid of Martial, Mata, and at least one of McT and Fred. Ronaldo is a problem to be solved in all this as he’s no doubt a very good goalscorer, but he doesn’t have the workrate off the ball which is damaging us somewhat. Rotation with Cavani would be the sensible thing to do, where Ronaldo play against Norwich and Cavani play against Liverpool, but I guess Ronaldo wouldn’t be too happy about that.
I think the main thing is that Liverpool haven't had an injury crisis and Chelsea don't have Frank Lampard in charge. Probably could throw in the fact that the fixture list isn't quite as congested and plans are a bit more clear in terms of COVID (no last minute decimating of squads due to positive results).
That explains why Liverpool and Chelsea are doing well, but not why we're terrible against almost everyone we play against, or why we can't get the fundamentals on the pitch right.
Good post but "We need a top striker" was actually one of the most common posts here last season. It was one of five positions these people said we needed to strengthen (CB, RW, ST, DM and FB). Even Neville was moaning about not signing Kane a few weeks ago. If anything it just confirms these people were just winging it or thought we could spend our way into making Ole look like a United manager. I still can't believe he found a way to be a worse manager after getting better players. That is legendary incompetence. I think many warned that lot buying galacticos across the pitch wasn't going to improve our play. Can't believe this shitehouse has deteriorated into scapegoating Ronaldo. The manager cult always want someone to go down for their man's failings.
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The defensive line is generally about 20y higher and the wide forwards + Bruno are also about 20y higher
I think that's an incredibly simplistic argument, like most of the debate around here on that question.
This is not a binary issue - it's not the case that either it's all Ronaldos fault, or it's totally due to other things. To the extent that apportioning "fault" is even a meaningful or worthwhile question. Reading discussion around that as "scapegoating" or "excuses" certainly is not.
The question is what are our problems and challenges, and how does Ronaldo factor into those? Does he represent an answer to them? Or is he a part of them? The answer can perfectly well be "both", for different issues.
I'm not going to embark here on an attempt at a full attempt to answer that, but it seems fairly reasonable to me to argue that aside from his brilliant goal contributions we have lots of problems and challenges that have nothing to do with Ronaldo, but that on the other hand, having him doesn't make it easier for us to solve many of them, and on some points having him makes it more difficult to do so. Then it comes down to the sum total of pluses and minuses, and where it leaves us as a team to play with him in the lineup versus where it would leave us if he wasn't here. And regardless of how you answer that question, that doesn't exonerate the manager, especially not one who enthusiastically brought Ronaldo to the club. For my part I did not think the signing was wise and made sense when it was made, and I think so even less today, but that is legitimately debatable.
But please, fobbing off concerns about Ronaldos impact on the situation as "scapegoating" is just silly.
Okay, here we go again. "Defensive counterattacking tactics"? Really? That's simply not a viable basic description of how United has been playing for at least a season and half. Otherwise many interesting points here though.
Let's not get bogged down in tactical definitions, that is not really the point. I do believe however that some players are looking at their team mates and wondering why we can't play a more entertaining style of football - regardless of how you want to label the current style of football.
We're certainly playing with a higher line which yes is part of playing a more front footed and controlling game but I'd say thats about it.
Bruno since Greenwood stopped playing striker is now a bit deeper again and i wouldn't say our wide forwards positioning has changed.
If you want to control a game you don't tend to be as expansive as our setup is right now. You pack the midfield to always give passing options and your wide forwards get involved in play generally and not just when it's narrow up the pitch.
Maybe he is trying it as you say but then if that's the case he really is only implementing parts of it.
While I can appreciate the nuance this is still just a lot of "maybe is/maybe not". You could replace all the instances of Ronaldo with any random name in the first team and much of it will read the same. There's not enough to separate from any other specialist player.
However if we're talking Ronaldo he's a goal poacher, the advantages and disadvantages of having one are nothing new. It's a sacrifice in buildup play to guarantee a higher goal production. Unfortunately our buildup is shite and it has allowed symptom to get mistaken for cause. Did these problems not exist without Ronaldo? Was that not why people insisted on buying a new striker throughout last season? The attack isn't poor because of the individuals, it's poor because it's devoid of structure and chance creation is more individual than systemic. That's why a player like Greenwood can break off to do his own thing while the others are doing something different. A poacher like Hernandez who flourished with Fergie would have struggled to look half the player in Ole's disjointed united.
edit one of the reasons I used the term scapegoating is I've seen Ronaldo's lack of pressing highlighted as a problem in the Liverpool game, a game where we were systematically dismantled because of our attempting one of the most ad hoc, incomplete, incompetent implementations of pressing one will ever see. Then you have Neville blaming him for showing emotion after the Everton game. This same guy slags the likes of Pogba for not caring enough and being smiley after poor performances but now that Ole's on the hotseat he has a problem with a passionate expression of disappointment. They are taking flaws and massively exaggerating it. Ronaldo is a minor problem at most. The mediocrity started before he even played his first game.
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I'd label the current style of football as dysfunctional (and entertaining mainly for the opposition fans).
Relative to the question the OP asks, it is rather a key point to understand how the way we played has changed, and you can't even begin to do that if you have a fundamentally wrong description of how we played before.I made some edits to the post just so you know so you aren't hitting reply on an older version.I'd label the current style of football as dysfunctional (and entertaining mainly for the opposition fans).
Periodically, teams and coaching must adapt as opposition coaches adapt to you. Great or good coaches find new ways to evolve and find solutions. Poor coaches reinforce outdated approaches. For example. How many times have I read on Redcafe that we need to go back to just counter-attacking from deep? This won't work. Why? Look how many mid-table and lower-table teams have adapted by employing 3 CB formations with wing-backs, compared to a couple of years ago. Hard to get a numerical advantage on the counter the when opposition always has 3 CB's on the defensive transition.
So, calls to go back to Ole being 100% counter-attacking is just naively ignoring how the tactical landscape has evolved to make that approach less effective. We need tactical solutions for breaking down compact teams which sit back. And look, you can't get around it. We need smart guys. Intelligent coaching leadership who can read analytics and adjust tactically thinking on his feet. City, Chelsea and Liverpool are reaping the benefits of coaches who idolised Arrigo Sacchi, Johan Cruyff, etc, and have a keen interest in coaching and tactical history. That shows in their attention to detail now.
So, calls to go back to Ole being 100% counter-attacking is just naively ignoring how the tactical landscape has evolved to make that approach less effective. We need tactical solutions for breaking down compact teams which sit back. And look, you can't get around it. We need smart guys. Intelligent coaching leadership who can read analytics and adjust tactically thinking on his feet. City, Chelsea and Liverpool are reaping the benefits of coaches who idolised Arrigo Sacchi, Johan Cruyff, etc, and have a keen interest in coaching and tactical history. That shows in their attention to detail now.
Again, I'm not saying all we've been is a counterattacking team, but our sweet spot under Ole have been counters and direct attacks against opposition who open up and allow us to play that way. Breaking down low blocks isn't something we've excelled at and we've always struggled with it. We finished second last season and yes you don't manage that if you're rubbish against the lower half of the table, but we've been far from convincing against these sorts of tactics and we've always been susceptible to conceding when coming up against it. We have never managed to get the balance right in this regard and it's something that's much more apparent this season as we seek to be more aggressive and imposing in our play.
I don't think you can. He impacts on the team in ways that are different from others. But you are of course right to point out he's not the only one who does. However, he is one of only three we could have decided not to bring into the mix this summer.
I would question if there was really that much clamour for the need to sign a CF around here at least for the second half of the season, once Cavani had settled in. To the extent that there was, that was focused mainly on the need to recruit one of the really top figures (Kane, Haaland) and crucially with a longer time perspective, not as an area in need of an immediate and short term fix. Not that that fundamentally matters much anyway.
For my part I did not think it made sense to add two new players (three, if you count Lingard) to a forward setup that was perhaps one player short - and that only if Pogba was going to be used in the midfield. Especially not a player who clearly was not going to slot into our existing setup and patterns and support and improve them, but who would on the contrary require all of that to reconfigure around his needs. I never doubted that he would bring elite goal scoring, but it seemed to me clear that it would change how everyone else needed to play up front, and it did not seem to me obvious that this would all in all make us a better team. And indeed, it hasn't.
His lack of pressing and backtracking was well known, and since we were already a team that struggled a bit with controlling the midfield (lacking quality in that position) and implementing a solid pressing system, we were more vulnerable to the effects of that than many other teams would be. It was also a bad fit in the way that by far our best pressing forward - Cavani - would only be able to play when Ronaldo didn't. In other words, he made us weaker, as much as any single player can, in one of the areas where we were already dangerously vulnerable.
Beyond that, there are other things that made the signing feel all wrong, that are perhaps vaguer but not less important for all that. Above all its failure to fit with the overall concept of what we were trying to do. That was supposed to be about building a new, young, title calibre team with a core that would allow it to remain a challenger for years ahead. Sancho made a lot of sense sense relative to that, Ronaldo did not - to such an extent that it rather made a mockery of the whole project.
Which brings me to another point, namely the knock-on effects for the squad and formation. Currently, we have four forwards (broadly speaking) who make little effective contribution to our play without the ball, which is clearly and visibly unsustainable. Either those players have to do much more and better work when out of possession, or we cannot continue fielding four of them. The first of those solutions becomes much more difficult with Ronaldo, because he simply doesn't do that part of the game. It then becomes correspondingly more challenging for the remaining ones. And if we go to three forwards instead, that leaves an unsustainable squad situation. Ronaldo and Bruno are more or less automatic starters - that leaves Rashford, Sancho and Greenwood competing for one spot, and Cavani, Martial and Lingard with barely a chance to get a minute, save for the occasional cameo as a sub. We can't even fit all of those onto the bench, most games. If Pogba plays up front, it gets even worse. And where does this leave Sancho? We've pursued him for two years as THE answer on right wing and paid 73m for him - and then there's no plan? He plays every third game, and then mainly gets to work his arse off pressing and backtracking because Ronaldo doesn't? He's who we should be building and further developing our attack with, or we should not have bought him. It just doesn't add up. If there was one thing this team did not need, it was an undroppable attacker with a narrow specialised positive impact and a more general negative impact, who required things to be organised around him and others to adapt to his needs, and who'll be gone in two seasons. And who's a walking contradiction of the strategy the club claimed to be pursuing. If a better goalscoring striker was the last missing piece, and we had reason to be sure other aspects of our game was so solid that we could manage to integrate him and still handle the knock-on effects, than maybe. But that is clearly not the case.
Anyway, now he's here and there is nothing else to do than make the best of things and the most of what he does bring. But in my view we would have been better off not bringing him back to the club.
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Excellent post. I do really feel that we have a toxic fanbase in some regards such as this - we're very quick to vilify the hard working players. This doesn't just go for now. In the past decade or two, we've seen the likes of James, Fred, Fletcher, O'Shea, Lingard, Herrera and many more deemed "not good enough, we need a galactico in that position" and I disagree, I feel these players were/are insanely important to 'enable' the famous names such as Pogba, Rashford, Fernandes, Berbatov, Van Persie, Ronaldo etc. to do what they do best. Now, this doesn't go for every fan at all, there are a lot of great fans who appreciate what the grafters do for us. But for every great team we've had the overlooked hard workers who a huge amount of the fanbase said weren't good enough and often drove them out. The fact that Fletcher and O'Shea never got testimonials still annoys me.
United are "damned if they do, damned if they don't" when it comes to team selection. Keep the grafters, play balanced football? They're not good enough, toss 'em and bring in [big name here]. Sell the grafters, bring in big names? Nobody puts in enough effort, this is clearly the manager's fault. A great recent example of this is Ronaldo, who when we didn't play him for ONE game, it spawned insane amounts of controversy in the press and amongst the fans. And now the same press and fans are saying Ronaldo should be thrown out because he's ruined the balance of the team. Catch 22, Ole is blamed no matter what he does. And that's the toxicity in action.
I'd label the current style of football as dysfunctional (and entertaining mainly for the opposition fans).
Alright, I disagree with that, but sure. Here's why I call our style defensive counter-attacking.
1. We play with a deep double pivot most of the time, prefering to surrender the midfield in favour of having (rather trying to have) enough men behind the ball and maintain our shape. An attacking side generally prefers to control midfield, we don't seem to want to do that very often, instead prefering to use the flanks in our build up.
2. A defensive tactic is generally reactionary, prefering to assess the opposition and take opportunities as they present themselves. For us this often leads to us conceding goals first, before we reply - mostly because we're not very good at it. This is in contrast to an attacking tactic which generally looks to keep the ball and control the game, most commonly through the use of system oriented football in the modern game.
An example of that is our pressing. We rarely press as a unit, preferring to go man to man instead. This is in line with reactionary football where the player is expected to adapt to the situation at all times. Usually you assign players specific roles and duties to ensure that this doesn't cause defensive issues, but as you said, we play dysfunctional football right now.
3. Counter-attacking is not a slight, nor does it mean that we only counter-attack. We're not talking Sam Allerdyce or Tony Pulis here. It does mean that we play a style of football that looks to exploit player's abilities to get behind the defense or a players ability to break the defense open with a pass through. Prefering to go quickly forwards rather than slowly building up. This stands in contrast to a controlled system oriented build up. Which looks to break down a defense through systemic movements and passing. What you would more commonly see from Guardiola. Keep the shape and build the attack.
Liverpool destroyed us with system oriented counter attacking build up, dragging us out of position, exploiting our lack of specific roles, and our inability to control midfield. They also play a counter-attacking system, but they do so using an attacking tactical style.
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What we see from United before and now is reactionary, defensive minded and counter-attacking oriented. We were even more cautious in our approach before, but a lack of caution doesn't make a tactic attacking IMO.
Edited for clarity.
Edit 2 - Because of post limits.
Please tell me what style we are playing if you disagree.
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It was always inevitable. There's only so long top players will put up with poor tactics and coaching, no matter how nice the manager is. You pay a premium for the best players because they've either won trophies or they're talented enough to win trophies, and that's what they expect to be doing when they join a club like United.
We've never looked like genuine contenders for trophies. We couldn't even win the EL, not that such a competition would be good enough anyway. We consistently play poor football. Put yourself in the shoes of a world class footballer and think whether you'd get any satisfaction in our current setup, or whether you'd be happy taking instructions from underqualified coaches.
Our strategy of throwing money at the problem while the manager and coaches learn on the job isn't sustainable. The collapse has started and will only get worse. The problem will only be exacerbated from a players point of view by looking at how incompetent the club is at rectifying it. From top to bottom we look like a badly run club.
We need a world class coaching setup if we expect to build a world class team full of world class players.
We've never looked like genuine contenders for trophies. We couldn't even win the EL, not that such a competition would be good enough anyway. We consistently play poor football. Put yourself in the shoes of a world class footballer and think whether you'd get any satisfaction in our current setup, or whether you'd be happy taking instructions from underqualified coaches.
Our strategy of throwing money at the problem while the manager and coaches learn on the job isn't sustainable. The collapse has started and will only get worse. The problem will only be exacerbated from a players point of view by looking at how incompetent the club is at rectifying it. From top to bottom we look like a badly run club.
We need a world class coaching setup if we expect to build a world class team full of world class players.
I agree that we haven't controlled games or been able to sustain attacks, but I maintain that's not for lack of trying. As you say, I think it's more that Ole has been very niave, and he seems to think you can control games just by asking players to press and hold higher positions.
Think back to last season, we got hammered 1-6 by Spurs. The entire team was written off, Maguire and Shaw were written-off, in fact, if you look back at the goals we conceded that day, some of them are almost identical. Plus, Bruno should have put us 1-0 up, just for an added (irrelevant) parallel!
Now, I maintain, that hammering was the result again of Ole trying to force us higher up the pitch and make us more aggressive. Again, he failed miserably, and abandoned the plan quickly. I think he thought just adding Varane would change everything overnight. Ridiculous really, more naive than I even thought possible.
Only 9 matches have passed. There are still 29 league games to play. It's not even one-quarter of a season yet!
You are describing how we have played historically under Ole. It's been nothing at all like that tactically this season.
Forget the 'McFred' "double-pivot"...that's a Red Herring. We play with nothing like a double-pivot, that requires some organisation! It basically really is nothing more subtle or complex than a two-man midfield with four attackers running about aimlessly
Rushing Maguire back who was clearly NOWHERE near fit and ready was a huge failure moment.
He's made his bed with not trusting players like Bailly, and that will ultimately cost him. He's fallen into the same old manager trap of having his favourites and believing in them over other players, even if they're not in good form or fit.
Unfortunately it seems he has no actual plan, just put players on the pitch and hope it works.
He's made his bed with not trusting players like Bailly, and that will ultimately cost him. He's fallen into the same old manager trap of having his favourites and believing in them over other players, even if they're not in good form or fit.
Unfortunately it seems he has no actual plan, just put players on the pitch and hope it works.
First of all - opposition teams found out we can be easily outplayed by structured build up. That is because our defensive game relies on midfielders who are not good at all off the ball.
Second, no aggression off the ball and general lack of involvement from the front 6. We let the opposition to play, gain confidence, and push us deep.
Third, Maguire and Shaw poor form. Don't think there's much you can do to be honest.
Second, no aggression off the ball and general lack of involvement from the front 6. We let the opposition to play, gain confidence, and push us deep.
Third, Maguire and Shaw poor form. Don't think there's much you can do to be honest.
I'm not really worried (not in the same vein as I am about our manager). It's just strange how we manage feck up things we think are heading in the right direction.
Best guess is Ronaldo. In discussions around the next manager they all agree Ronaldo will be an issue for every manager. Best suggestion is he can be one of two up front under Conte who does nothing.
Ronaldo probably has a knock on - Bruno needs to try do more and it leaves the midfield two more isolated, and they probably already aren't good enough to do what is asked defensively.
Our games followed a couple of patterns last season, but we would either go a goal down and fight back to be a goal up or go a goal up ourselves. Beyond that we would be deep and Maguire is elite in that situation, we would defend hard and often add 1-2 and often 3-4 goals on the counter. Can see how Ronaldo changes that.
Beyond that it is probably just third season syndrome, players are no longer reacting to the message. We saw it with so many managers in the past. It gets harder and harder with every passing year. Takes a very special manager to get around it, there are probably two in world football
Ronaldo probably has a knock on - Bruno needs to try do more and it leaves the midfield two more isolated, and they probably already aren't good enough to do what is asked defensively.
Our games followed a couple of patterns last season, but we would either go a goal down and fight back to be a goal up or go a goal up ourselves. Beyond that we would be deep and Maguire is elite in that situation, we would defend hard and often add 1-2 and often 3-4 goals on the counter. Can see how Ronaldo changes that.
Beyond that it is probably just third season syndrome, players are no longer reacting to the message. We saw it with so many managers in the past. It gets harder and harder with every passing year. Takes a very special manager to get around it, there are probably two in world football
Failure in pressing.
Failure to change the system for Ronaldo and to a lesser degree Sancho.
Lack of belief after the EL loss.
Heightened expectations .
Shaw and Maguire burned out after the Euros.
Lack of a plan B, both in system/formation and using different players.
Failure to change the system for Ronaldo and to a lesser degree Sancho.
Lack of belief after the EL loss.
Heightened expectations .
Shaw and Maguire burned out after the Euros.
Lack of a plan B, both in system/formation and using different players.
I would agree that we emphasise and consistently try to exploit quick breaks in our attacking game. But to describe the result as reactive (which is what I assume you actually mean, rather than "reactionary") and defensive minded is in my opinion way overboard. We did play in that fashion after Ole took over in 2018/19, but in that case with very intensive high pressing. We also to some extent played in that way pre-Bruno during the following season. But we have not played that way since. In my view, the eye test should make that obvious. Stats even more so, but I must admit I lack the time and patience to piece together a proper expose of that. So I'll confine myself to a couple of observations:
- Most teams played exactly that style against us last season - even some of the top ones (Chelsea, notably, and also City to an extent). If you're faced with that and have a system that is defensive, reactive and relies on counter-attack, and doesn't feature intensive high pressing, you don't score the second most goals in the league. Because opponents that play a careful, deep, defensive posture will not give you the opportunities that approach relis on, and if you don't do an intensive high press you won't procure them for yourself.
- Relative to the other top 4 teams in 20/21, we were most effective playing against lower-half opponents (who themselves to the greatest extent play a deep, defensive, reactive approach, and against whom a reactive, defensive-oriented one from United would be least effective), and least effective against other top 4 sides (against whom such an approach would be most effective). Note that this was the exact opposite of the pre-Bruno period the preceding season, when we did play such a style and when we were least effective against bottom teams and most effective against top teams.
- We generally dominated both possession and shots, which is not associated with this kind of style
- The better part of our open play goals were scored off established play in the opposition third, not counters or quick breaks.