How is it a problem when we are signing better players than we already have? Varanes signing is a problem because Ole broke promises he made to baily and is now panicking and clueless?
Why are Man United playing worse than last season?
- Thread starter Bearded One
- Start date
I think "unforgiveable" is a bit much. He's just a football manager who got something wrong.
He'll be sacked and that's punishment enough.
Writings been on the wall for some time, its been due south.
I wouldn't go as far as to say its unforgiveable, but that's mostly cos I've loved the guy since I was a child. The warning signs have been there for ages. Ole not seeing them can't be excused.
You cannot look at this team, see your centre halves' natural inclination is to drop off and then ask the forwards to move in the opposition direction. It just spreads the team too thin and makes us easy to get at.
If Ole is doing it because he felt expectations were on him to attack more, he's not the coach I thought he was. The manager of Man Utd has to be big enough to say: 'I don't care what the expectations are. We're going to do it my way.' If, for the sake of argument, United hired Diego Simeone does anyone think he'd suddenly switch to a high press to suit expectations?
Ole has to be stronger if he wants to be Man Utd manager.
I agree, but I think the ship has sailed. ESPN was reporting that SAF was at training yesterday. if that is true, and I were Ole, I would be pissed. Its like calling big brother back or being called to the principals office. Ole is too nice and for that reason alone, is not the right man for the job!
I don’t agree. A few people on here pointed out our rivals had one off issues which affected them last season. Our final position was never a reflection of our underlying strength but their bad luck. They have reasserted themselves. And if you like, a few people pointed out a number of ways Ronaldo could weaken us - and he has. Scoring goals wasn’t a problem before we signed him, so what problem was he solving for us? Too many fans have forgotten what a winning football club looks and feels like. United didn’t feel like a winning club last season and this season has just proven it.
It's guesswork but I think Ole wants to play more controlled, attacking football than the counter attacking football we had at first. I don't think it's just a case of changing because those are the demands of the club. He just hasn't pulled it off. Mourinho got caught in the same limbo in my opinion.
I think with Mourinho its different. First, because, even at Real Madrid, Mourinho preferred to counterattack. Second, because, ultimately, his problems weren't tactical but personal.
I can admit you may have a point that Ole always had it in mind to be something more than a counterattacking coach.
However, as I said before, I think you gotta be realistic. You gotta manage the squad you have not the one you wish you had. Maguire and Lindelof's natural inclination is to drop off. That is always, always going to drag one of the lines in our team backwards. So you gotta accommodate that.
Your job as manager is to manage the resources at your disposal. Ole is just not doing that. It feels like he's managing what he wishes he had rather than what he actually has. That's a recipe for disaster, as we've seen.
Players expectations have risen above the managers capabilities, players morale has dropped as a result. They no longer believe, if they ever did….but now they know what they know
I've really tried mate but everything I can come up with is, indeed, that Ole's shite.
It's basically this. Not much more needs to be said. Ole is trying to convert us into a team capable of playing on the front-foot and dominating matches and so far, we have looked a total shambles
Nail, head
This just sounds like a whole bunch of mental gymnastics to try and convince people we were on the uptrend as a team and club before we suddenly had a shocking start to this season (then blaming it on Ronaldo whatever). Wake up, it was going south from the beginning, just a bit slower because people were happier and the pressure wasn't on yet. We never had a system, we just counterattacked because we were always playing on the backfoot and had the convenient and effective outlets of Rashford/James/Bruno to punish teams. Sure, for a while it looked effective before everyone and their moms figured us out as a one-trick pony.
Ronaldo and Varane didn't cause this to go south. Even if they didn't join us, our insane luck, which up to this point kept papering over the glaring gaps in our coaching/playstyle, was due to run out eventually. And it did. Unfortunately for Ole, everything fell apart at the same time so him and his joke of a coaching team were exposed for their glaring lack of competency at this level. That's really all there is to it.
Ronaldo and Varane didn't cause this to go south. Even if they didn't join us, our insane luck, which up to this point kept papering over the glaring gaps in our coaching/playstyle, was due to run out eventually. And it did. Unfortunately for Ole, everything fell apart at the same time so him and his joke of a coaching team were exposed for their glaring lack of competency at this level. That's really all there is to it.
I don't really see much evidence of this being the case though. What tactical changes has he made that suggests he's trying a more attacking or controlled approach?
We've had periods where we're much more attacking but it's because we've been behind or trying for the last minute winner.
1. Because Ole is shit
2. We have a dreadful midfield
3. Our team is completely unbalanced
4. A lot of our players are not as good as we think they are. eg. Shaw, Pogba, Greenwood, Maguire (though I find it hard to believe anyone thinks he's any good anymore).
2. We have a dreadful midfield
3. Our team is completely unbalanced
4. A lot of our players are not as good as we think they are. eg. Shaw, Pogba, Greenwood, Maguire (though I find it hard to believe anyone thinks he's any good anymore).
Yep, in fairness, although I didn’t make it clear, I only meant unforgivable in the sense of being so incompatible with being a coach of an elite club that it’s not a fault that can be overlooked when assessing whether he should be able to continue. All the over-personal stuff is bullshit and though I don’t support Man Utd I hate the kind of mentality that leads to the kind of abuse that some managers receive. I hope/think we can all be better than that.
Ronaldo would be both the simple and long answer.
Ronaldo in team, means the team is confident, and wants to play on the frontfoot. Yet, the squad have some inherent concentration errors and tactical indiscipline. Makes the defense a mess yet overconfident team.
In some sense, Utd are like early LFC of Klopp. You could destroy any team on your day due to attacking powerness. Yet, struggles big time on other days due to mistakes prone individuals
Ronaldo in team, means the team is confident, and wants to play on the frontfoot. Yet, the squad have some inherent concentration errors and tactical indiscipline. Makes the defense a mess yet overconfident team.
In some sense, Utd are like early LFC of Klopp. You could destroy any team on your day due to attacking powerness. Yet, struggles big time on other days due to mistakes prone individuals
I think realistically at some point bringing back Ronaldo at this point of his career there was going to fireworks.Yeah that'd be spectacular and hilarious to see
Only problem is imo it'll happen with us instead. Conte vs Ronaldo would be pretty spectacular I think.
As in all probability due to his age at some point over the next few years a manger is going to have to phase him out as a regular starter….. I can’t imagine that is going to go well and not be insanely disruptive to the team the club and manager(whoever it is).
All the other teams worked out that we have no defensive midfield so they started attacking hard through the middle, knowing Fred and Pogba can't defend and McT isn't fit. Because we have no answer, it works every time.
Tbh it's more the fault of the whole club that we bought the wrong players. Ole is only part of the blame jigsaw.
Tbh it's more the fault of the whole club that we bought the wrong players. Ole is only part of the blame jigsaw.
As others have said, Ole looked at all the top teams and saw how they played differently to the way we play, thought were a big team and we should play similar. Then tried an hybrid of pressing and possession, which him and his coaches haven't the foggiest of implementing. This confused the players and led to where we are now.
Like I said earlier, people just see results and ignore the performances. Performances were bad last year too its just results are worse this time around.
The lack of organisation in the team is the main reason. I still think people are underestimating the impact this is having, and are focusing too much on the players.
What happened in defence for the first goal against Liverpool has happened three times that I can remember in this season alone:
- Liverpool: Defence was dragged out to the right side, leaving Shaw to defend against two players
- Everton: Defence was dragged out to the right side, leaving nobody to defend against Townsend
- Everton: Defence dragged over to the right side, leaving a massive space for Davies (who messed up)
I wouldn't be surprised if this has happened a lot more. There is a severe coaching issue because this is being repeated time and time again. And this isn't the only area where this is an issue; it happens in midfield, also, due to the players having no idea what their responsibilities actually are. Too much space is being left as the duties are not drilled into the players.
The biggest tell that the coaching is the real issue is: no matter what players we play, we are bad. We conceded goals with Varane, Maguire, and Lindelof in all combinations. The midfield gets cut through with all combinations of Pogba, Matic, Fred, and McTominay. This is why I don't think signing a player will fix this issue. No matter who we play, the space that we leave will be impossible to cover. No matter how good a player is, he does not have the ability to cover the huge gaps we leave in the team.
Not much organisation is needed when you shove all your players in the box with the intention of counter attacking. The numbers will crowd the space too much to make it an issue.
What happened in defence for the first goal against Liverpool has happened three times that I can remember in this season alone:
- Liverpool: Defence was dragged out to the right side, leaving Shaw to defend against two players
- Everton: Defence was dragged out to the right side, leaving nobody to defend against Townsend
- Everton: Defence dragged over to the right side, leaving a massive space for Davies (who messed up)
I wouldn't be surprised if this has happened a lot more. There is a severe coaching issue because this is being repeated time and time again. And this isn't the only area where this is an issue; it happens in midfield, also, due to the players having no idea what their responsibilities actually are. Too much space is being left as the duties are not drilled into the players.
The biggest tell that the coaching is the real issue is: no matter what players we play, we are bad. We conceded goals with Varane, Maguire, and Lindelof in all combinations. The midfield gets cut through with all combinations of Pogba, Matic, Fred, and McTominay. This is why I don't think signing a player will fix this issue. No matter who we play, the space that we leave will be impossible to cover. No matter how good a player is, he does not have the ability to cover the huge gaps we leave in the team.
Not much organisation is needed when you shove all your players in the box with the intention of counter attacking. The numbers will crowd the space too much to make it an issue.
It is a combination of things:
a) Attacking wise, no big changes tactically and probably still bedding in the new players. Ronaldo means adjustments, some are pretty difficult and therefor almost impossible (compensate his lack of workrate with increases workrate from other players), some will take more time (playing for crosses to Ronaldo). Sancho didn't start very well, Bruno isn't great and Greenwood and Rashford are seemingly trying to be the headliner, not the water carrier, I hoped the Rashford of 2019 would re-appear, but we seemingly got the 2020 version of him. Against Liverpool he decided to have a go from 18 yards instead of passing and keeping a promising move alive.
The lack of creation was apparent to anybody and has been called out many times. This issue is still there.
b) Midfield is the main area where the issues in the other areas have an effect. McFred are needed to do way to much on their own, without the greatest of support of the attackers, not even from a nominal midfield player at times (Bruno). It doesn't help that both their forms have suffered quite a bit. But overall, we should have strengthened but even without strengthening we seem to neglect that area of the pitch and we are paying the price.
c) Defense has been effected by Varanes injury and Maguires potential trait of being a very very slow starter into a new season. Last year, it was pretty much the same, hopefully he kicks on.
d) All these issues combined with a manager who doesn't seem to be very comfortable with adjusting to new realities are leading into the current rough.
I think, if Ole is taking a few decisions (another manager would take as well, like dropping an attacker or get more balance in another way) he could stabilize the ship again. A Liverpool side that good as the one on the weekend would have given us a hiding last year as well. Club needs to do his homework now, come up with a good plan for the future.
I am not a fan of that new "another manager will make that squad just click", I don't think, that will happen. We just have to live with the consequences of some of our decisions in the past. Only thing we can do now is to avoid the same mistakes.
a) Attacking wise, no big changes tactically and probably still bedding in the new players. Ronaldo means adjustments, some are pretty difficult and therefor almost impossible (compensate his lack of workrate with increases workrate from other players), some will take more time (playing for crosses to Ronaldo). Sancho didn't start very well, Bruno isn't great and Greenwood and Rashford are seemingly trying to be the headliner, not the water carrier, I hoped the Rashford of 2019 would re-appear, but we seemingly got the 2020 version of him. Against Liverpool he decided to have a go from 18 yards instead of passing and keeping a promising move alive.
The lack of creation was apparent to anybody and has been called out many times. This issue is still there.
b) Midfield is the main area where the issues in the other areas have an effect. McFred are needed to do way to much on their own, without the greatest of support of the attackers, not even from a nominal midfield player at times (Bruno). It doesn't help that both their forms have suffered quite a bit. But overall, we should have strengthened but even without strengthening we seem to neglect that area of the pitch and we are paying the price.
c) Defense has been effected by Varanes injury and Maguires potential trait of being a very very slow starter into a new season. Last year, it was pretty much the same, hopefully he kicks on.
d) All these issues combined with a manager who doesn't seem to be very comfortable with adjusting to new realities are leading into the current rough.
I think, if Ole is taking a few decisions (another manager would take as well, like dropping an attacker or get more balance in another way) he could stabilize the ship again. A Liverpool side that good as the one on the weekend would have given us a hiding last year as well. Club needs to do his homework now, come up with a good plan for the future.
I am not a fan of that new "another manager will make that squad just click", I don't think, that will happen. We just have to live with the consequences of some of our decisions in the past. Only thing we can do now is to avoid the same mistakes.
I think Oles decisions on team selection of backfired. He’s refused to play anybody outside of a select group of people so long as those people aren’t on crutches. Doesn’t matter if they’re on form or not. Maguire and Shaw have both been poor lately…. What does he drop Maguire and Lindelof and Bailey?? No. He lacks trust for about half of the squad. But he also doesn’t create a system where people can be swapped in and out and everybody does their role. Again he relies on individual brilliance to carry everything through.
to me that his the risk he took that is not paid off to start the season….
to me that his the risk he took that is not paid off to start the season….
We've been papering over the cracks caused by bad and / or lacking tactical guidance and drilling on the training pitch by virtue of pure individual brilliance. Eventually, teams were going to figure out which players to take out, players would have dips in form, and we were going to be exposed. It happens all the time in other sports where bad management is hidden by brilliant playing talent, but inevitably the bad (or even less competent) managers are always exposed.
the players after the signings of varane and cr7 bought into their own hype. they are playing like they think they have arrived
It’s the man that is holding us back
He’s the one dealing with everything
So if you agree to end this nonesense and let him go we might stand a chance. Your operation is based on delusion, nostalgia and denial. So when we play Liverpool and other top teams it’s like high school teams Vs Prime Barca from 09-11. We end up tepid and off, looking like imitators and a laughing stock.
You know, you all know exactly who the problem is. He’s the one who killed the best midfielder in Holland and is doing the same to the best young winger from serie A, and most likely Sancho too..
Legend, time, really? Hundreds of Millions wasted, now say his name.
Your goddamn right
He’s the one dealing with everything
So if you agree to end this nonesense and let him go we might stand a chance. Your operation is based on delusion, nostalgia and denial. So when we play Liverpool and other top teams it’s like high school teams Vs Prime Barca from 09-11. We end up tepid and off, looking like imitators and a laughing stock.
You know, you all know exactly who the problem is. He’s the one who killed the best midfielder in Holland and is doing the same to the best young winger from serie A, and most likely Sancho too..
Legend, time, really? Hundreds of Millions wasted, now say his name.
Your goddamn right
Exactly this. We’ve been shite since he got the full time gig, if he somehow gets the season he’ll find some good form and some bad, and we’ll finish around 70 points as is standard for Ole.
People were stark raving lunatics watching us these past years & not seeing something like this a mile off.
The scary thing is we haven't been unlucky to be this bad. We haven't lost games or drawn games we deserved to win - not a single one , in fact we've been extremely lucky to have saved our arses through last minute goals/De Gea's penalty save etc. It could genuinely have been worse and we could have been in the Europa League by now.
We haven't had the kind of injuries that you'd associate with this sort of form either, ala Liverpool with their CBs last year. Its quite astonishing when you think back to the Newcastle game and the kind of optimism we all had and how its all unravelled since.
We haven't had the kind of injuries that you'd associate with this sort of form either, ala Liverpool with their CBs last year. Its quite astonishing when you think back to the Newcastle game and the kind of optimism we all had and how its all unravelled since.
Change in tactics try to play more expanding football but players not suited to this approach. Again I stated this when you guys signed Ronaldo. It's having Ronaldo and around Rooney,Tevez,park,scholes,Carrick one thing but having Bruno,Pogba,Greenwood,mctominay and Fred another thing.
Team have less balance and front players not working enough to slow down the pace when not in position. Watching your older games will tell you that. Rooney Tevez park scholes working in tandem to harass opponents to thwart immediate danger of defense caught up with pace.
How many yellows your forwards got for tactical fouls nowadays. If They lose the ball they just throw arms instead of trying to get back possession.
Team have less balance and front players not working enough to slow down the pace when not in position. Watching your older games will tell you that. Rooney Tevez park scholes working in tandem to harass opponents to thwart immediate danger of defense caught up with pace.
How many yellows your forwards got for tactical fouls nowadays. If They lose the ball they just throw arms instead of trying to get back possession.
If the intention was to press high as a group either 1) the players arent bothering to follow instructions, or 2) McKenna isnt following instructions to coach pressing, or 3) Solskjaer isnt making his intentions clear enough to the coaching staff or 4) the manager and coaching staff as a group dont know how to apply the tactics and are hoping it will evolve naturally. If Solskjaer isnt personally responsible for first team coaching then surely he needs more of a Carlos Quiroz than more basic guys like McKenna and Carrick.
If the intention wasnt to have an organised approach to winning back the ball high up the pitch and instead just allow players to what they feel is best then obviously thats on Solskjaer.
I cant help but think that Solskjaer has also made a rod for his own back by holding on to so many players who he doesnt trust to put in a performance. That can only breed discontent.
If the intention wasnt to have an organised approach to winning back the ball high up the pitch and instead just allow players to what they feel is best then obviously thats on Solskjaer.
I cant help but think that Solskjaer has also made a rod for his own back by holding on to so many players who he doesnt trust to put in a performance. That can only breed discontent.
Genuinely can’t think of any other manager for whom making world class signings and having a world class squad has been used as an excuse and justification for his failure.
Let’s look at this way. If we were linked with Ronaldo, Varane, and Sancho but didn’t sign any of them and had this exact start… people would say not signing those players is the reason and if we signed them Ole would be challenging for the league.
Pretty simple actually: Mean reversion. We've had plenty of games last year where we were horrific for periods and could have been down big but managed to scrape results on individual brilliance consistently. There are very few games against quality sides where we could ever point to controlling and out playing them, aside from when we'd set up deep and counter City and similar teams (which we could have kept doing very well with this team btw). So you have this philosophy of "attacking football" but a coaching staff that didn't really know how best to put the players in positions to execute the philosophy. Instead we sort of lined up like a FIFA team and played off the cuff, some times pressing but very disjointed, and occasionally playing good football but generally disjointed on the other end as well besides when we could counter teams. We never fixed conceding from set pieces, while literally never scoring our own. And we were far too persistent in allowing someone like Bruno to turn even more into a gunslinger second striker and allowing an already positionally lacking midfield 0 help in connecting play or defending the middle of the park.
And after all of these problems kept cropping up last season, no changes were really made to either bench Bruno or try different formations or tactics that might create something a bit more reliable on either end! I said before the year that maybe we might not defend the best, but if Ole could figure out a way to have our attack clicking it wouldn't matter and we could contend anyways. Well instead we were just as disjointed at both ends as ever with 0 adjustments made, along with underperforming Maguire and Shaw and in reality Ronaldo bailing us out with goals from mostly crap performances.
Fully falls on the coaching staff for me, because while there are players you can point to as being lacking in certain ways (AWB sucks on the ball, our midfielders aren't great passers, Pogba isn't good defensively), almost all of them have performed very well for the club over one period or another and have the ability to do so. This isn't us rolling out Dan James as a primary attacking option, there were more than enough pieces for Ole to tinker with and he did none of that besides some occasional rotation.
And after all of these problems kept cropping up last season, no changes were really made to either bench Bruno or try different formations or tactics that might create something a bit more reliable on either end! I said before the year that maybe we might not defend the best, but if Ole could figure out a way to have our attack clicking it wouldn't matter and we could contend anyways. Well instead we were just as disjointed at both ends as ever with 0 adjustments made, along with underperforming Maguire and Shaw and in reality Ronaldo bailing us out with goals from mostly crap performances.
Fully falls on the coaching staff for me, because while there are players you can point to as being lacking in certain ways (AWB sucks on the ball, our midfielders aren't great passers, Pogba isn't good defensively), almost all of them have performed very well for the club over one period or another and have the ability to do so. This isn't us rolling out Dan James as a primary attacking option, there were more than enough pieces for Ole to tinker with and he did none of that besides some occasional rotation.
Nonsense, both were signed because they are some of the best goalscorers in the world and we had only 1 striker that everyone here hated for years anyways and was consistently underperforming. This mantra that it's Ronaldo's fault is idiotic and shows a lack of understanding about how we actually play.
Heisenberg?
Spot on.
We got 8 more points last season and won 3 more games than we did in 2019/20, without really playing much better - if anything, the expected metrics say we were a little better in 19/20. It was bound to catch up, especially given the number of times we came from behind to win games.
If we stick with Ole and keep going all season we'll most likely end up around the same spot as before, low to mid 70 points in the league.
I saw someone already posting it and I think he was very accurate talking about how the expectations have been raised for this season because of the investment over the summer. On paper it's a very good team and even I was excited to see how the team would perform but the tactics and playstyle have not been on par with the expectations. I also think Ole is trying to slot in all his favorite players that makes for an unbalanced and disjointed team; there are a lot of attacking players but they're unconnected from the midfield and the same happens with the defense. It feels like midfield is non-existent with how disjointed the team is.
So yeah, expectations are higher and being in a rebuild isn't an excuse people are going to buy after 3 years and all the investment in new players. So it's more of a situation of Ole being exposed this season but to be fair a lot of people where calling this problems long time ago since his appointment.
So yeah, expectations are higher and being in a rebuild isn't an excuse people are going to buy after 3 years and all the investment in new players. So it's more of a situation of Ole being exposed this season but to be fair a lot of people where calling this problems long time ago since his appointment.
I cant believe people are blaming ronaldo. The feck are you all watching???? What does ronaldo and the wingers have to do with shaw and maguire running into each other, not once, but twice? The defence and midfield are the issues. They dont talk to each other, they dont know what the feck they are doing during a press, which is evidenced by the fact we cut to shit by everyone we face.
The reason the coaching has been talked about to death, is because that the issue. We are not coached at all. We are all over the place, scrambling around like a pack of dogs on bonfire night. The forwards dont track back, the defence doesnt help out the midfield. No one makes runs other than ronaldo and cavani. Its all dog shit. And whether Ole is there or not, he fecking should be. If for no other reason to find out what the feck is going on during training that we are this shit. Scholes pointed out how shit that 4-2-4 was that he did in the first half against Atalanta, and how stupid it would be to set up the same way against liverpool. So even pundits can see it, why the feck is Ole doing it?
What went wrong? Nothing. Its all pretty much the same, only now theres no pandemic or lack of fans to hide behind. All the other teams are back to playing at their best. And we are stuck running around like a group of strangers playing like they fecking hate each other.
You may not want to hear "because Ole is shit" but thats pretty much the tl;dr version of events. Look at his history as a manager and its filled with ups and downs. Utterly dogshit runs in form, followed by win after win after win only to turn to dog shit again. Get rid of him, get rid of the coaching staff, wipe the board and start from scratch with people who know what they feck they are doing. How can I be sitting here watching west ham and be jealous of how good a team they are together? This is Moyes. The man too shit to do a job for us, yet here is his getting much better football out of much lower quality footballers.
The reason the coaching has been talked about to death, is because that the issue. We are not coached at all. We are all over the place, scrambling around like a pack of dogs on bonfire night. The forwards dont track back, the defence doesnt help out the midfield. No one makes runs other than ronaldo and cavani. Its all dog shit. And whether Ole is there or not, he fecking should be. If for no other reason to find out what the feck is going on during training that we are this shit. Scholes pointed out how shit that 4-2-4 was that he did in the first half against Atalanta, and how stupid it would be to set up the same way against liverpool. So even pundits can see it, why the feck is Ole doing it?
What went wrong? Nothing. Its all pretty much the same, only now theres no pandemic or lack of fans to hide behind. All the other teams are back to playing at their best. And we are stuck running around like a group of strangers playing like they fecking hate each other.
You may not want to hear "because Ole is shit" but thats pretty much the tl;dr version of events. Look at his history as a manager and its filled with ups and downs. Utterly dogshit runs in form, followed by win after win after win only to turn to dog shit again. Get rid of him, get rid of the coaching staff, wipe the board and start from scratch with people who know what they feck they are doing. How can I be sitting here watching west ham and be jealous of how good a team they are together? This is Moyes. The man too shit to do a job for us, yet here is his getting much better football out of much lower quality footballers.
The team is disorganized all over the place. It's not Ronaldo's fault, but the attack is as disorganized as the defence and the midfield. It is fair to point that out, too.
Results caught up with the performances, nothing more than that.