Why Amorim should not “adapt”

Agree with the overall sentiment of the OP and what Amorim has been saying about implementing his system (no pain no gain etc). But when I heard the other week that Amorim only had 4 or 5 sessions with the team in his 6 weeks in charge, it got me thinking.

Due to how little time on the grass Amorim would have in this hectic period, could he have struck a balance of getting through this period using a more familiar system, and then from January when things calm down and he has more time on the training pitch, begin implementing this system properly?

For example, as the set-up of the team in build up is not drastically different, he could have continued with a 4-2-3-1 out of possession whilst beginning to introduce some in-possession patterns that can also be used in the 3-4-3.

It’s just a devil’s advocate-esque thought, and a thought seen completely through hindsight too, but I wonder if this approach was even considered by Ruben or his superiors.
 
Agree. EtH was torn apart for abandoning his ideas.

At times, I called for EtH to be more pragmatic...but now, with £600m+ spent since Brentford 0-4, another 24-months wasted, new ownership, new executives and no prospect of European football...if ever there was a time to rip it all apart and start again, it's now!
 
daba said:
Agree with the overall sentiment of the OP and what Amorim has been saying about implementing his system (no pain no gain etc). But when I heard the other week that Amorim only had 4 or 5 sessions with the team in his 6 weeks in charge, it got me thinking.

Due to how little time on the grass Amorim would have in this hectic period, could he have struck a balance of getting through this period using a more familiar system, and then from January when things calm down and he has more time on the training pitch, begin implementing this system properly?

For example, as the set-up of the team in build up is not drastically different, he could have continued with a 4-2-3-1 out of possession whilst beginning to introduce some in-possession patterns that can also be used in the 3-4-3.

It’s just a devil’s advocate-esque thought, and a thought seen completely through hindsight too, but I wonder if this approach was even considered by Ruben or his superiors.
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Had this been the thinking, we might as well have stuck with RvN until 10th Jan. Get the most difficult / busiest run of fixtures out of the way and then kick-on under Amorim.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, though.
 
In my mind, a manager should play a formation and system which suits the players at their disposal. This method will generate the best results for the team. It seems crazy that you would play a system that your current squad clearly doesn’t have the skill set for.

Without two pacy, attacking wing backs Amorims whole system will fail and continuing to play with unsuited players will clearly hamper results and the players confidence.

We’d have been much better sticking with Ruud until the summer (when Amorim actually wanted to join) when we could bring in the players needed.

Essentially, Amorim has been set up to fail and clearly has no plan/ ability to play in another way. It’s going to be a painful second half to he season!!
 
Totally agree with the OP and have basically written off this season, and a large chunk of the squad. The only thing I'd add is that, quietly, Amorim has started to be as hampered as ETH was in crucial positions, as well as being let down by individual errors and some serious bad luck.

We need a left back for his system, once again Luke Shaw is unable to play. We play physical teams so need physicality and strength in midfield...our only tough midfielder is suspended. We need a right wing back who can offer offensive contribution and we have...Dalot. And that's it.

On the luck front, two headers conceded off deflected crosses landing perfectly on opposition noggins, two direct-from-corner goals that would normally be given as fouls, a very, very soft red card in a match we should have won etc. One of the things that was correctly identified when Klopp first started is that his xG movement wasn't matched by results - that's kind of happening with us this season, with both managers to be fair.

The best case scenario is that we get through the next couple weeks, games start being more spread out, we sign some loan players for the positions we need and results start to turn around, we look decent and move forward in the summer. If we can sneak a Europa...well that'd be jammy as hell but I'd take it.
 
Lentwood said:
Had this been the thinking, we might as well have stuck with RvN until 10th Jan. Get the most difficult / busiest run of fixtures out of the way and then kick-on under Amorim.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, though.
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I disagree tbh, there would still have been value in getting Amorim in when we did. As I mentioned, he could start to implement some of his in-possession ideas / patterns, it gives players longer to adjust to his way of working and his demands, improve how we press, and even though he won’t have fully committed to his system, he would have started to work out who is physically ready for his system.

Hindsight is great and don’t get me wrong I’d rather he commits to his system from day one like he has than completely scrap his ideals like ETH did. My suggestion was to take a more phased approach to ease his ideas across when he knew he was starting during a period where time on the training pitch was extremely limited.
 
In principle, yes give him time.

However, how much evidence do we have that he will actually be successful given time and resources to play 3-4-3?

I would argue his CV isn't any better than EtH's prior to joining us (who can point to almost making a CL final). And how do we know that his 3-4-3 is actually some sort of new football revolution genius and not something that fitted specific players at Sporting in a league that is overall pretty weak?

I'm not hating on him and this is partly my ignorance but outside of the formation can anyone actually define what Amorim's style of play is. The formation should be a pretty moot point, Pep has played various hybrid 3/4 at the back styles with players inverting or Bernardo at left back nominally. Even with the limitations of personnel for the system, it's alarming that actually given more time the results and performances are getting worse.
 
Essay incoming....

I'm very much hoping to be proved wrong on this one, but to me it seems our squad is a million miles away from suiting his philosophy/shape. So regardless of how good the potential of the system is, or how many training sessions he has, it feels nigh on impossible to make the squad changes needed with PSR restrictions and our current situation with crazy contracts.

I think the most robust way of looking at it is position by position, based on the clear characteristics required by Amorim:

GK
  • Key needs: Reliable part of the build up phases
  • Good first 11 option? Despite the flaws with his fundamentals, I would say Onana is probably well suited to system
RCB
  • Key needs: Right footed, mobile, aggressive in tackle, press resistant, good progressive passer
  • Good first 11 option? Yup - Maz looks perfect for it.
CCB
  • Key needs: Aerially dominant, good switch of play, good reading of the game, ideally pace
  • Good first 11 option? Noone currently perfect, but would expect one of De Ligt or Yoro to eventually make it there own eventually
LCB
  • Key needs: Left footed, mobile, aggressive in tackle, press resistant, good progressive passer
  • Good first 11 option? Nope. Massive Need. Shaw never fit, Martinez clearly not mobile enough to cover the ground exposed by lack of a traditional LB
The two 8s
  • Key needs: Mobile. Ball winners. Athletic. Ball retention. Progressive passers
  • Good first 11 option(s)? Only Ugarte. Massive Need. None of the other options have the mobility required
Wing backs
  • Key needs: Mobile. Athletic. creative in 1 on 1 situations, prepare to chase back and do the dirty work
  • Good first 11 option(s)? Massive Need (x2). Although Amad clearly can do it on the right... I see his future in the R10 role. Absolutely no options on the left
The two 10s
  • Key needs: Mobile. Great in tight spaces, intricate interplay, last pass, eye for goal, take-on ability
  • Good first 11 option(s) Between Amad, Bruno, Mainoo, Mount, and dare I say Sancho (despite how awful he has been his strengths seem almost perfectly aligned to the L10 role) you'd like to think we should be ok
ST
  • Key needs: Mobile. Fast. Channel running. Hold up. Able to compete aerially. Clinical
  • Good first 11 option? Nope. Massive Need. Neither Hojlund or Zirkzee are well rounded enough, or of the quality required.

I make that a minimum of 5 first team positions where we don't have a competent first 11 option. How long is it going to take make those required changes? And will he get the time if he keeps losing? And keep losing he will if half of his outfield selections can't do what is being asked of them.

Like it or not, we could for the time be fielding a comfortably competent 4231. And I'm not talking the suicidal 41 (massive gap) 41 ETH did for his last 18 months.... basically do what Ruud did for 4 games.

So to conclude, I think Ruben has been a bit silly in his interviews by making a rod for his own back with his lack of tactical flexibility. He could have explained the direction of travel without having been so rigid, and people would have gone along with it. Now he has made it make or break on a system he hasnt got the player for.
 
daba said:
I disagree tbh, there would still have been value in getting Amorim in when we did. As I mentioned, he could start to implement some of his in-possession ideas / patterns, it gives players longer to adjust to his way of working and his demands, improve how we press, and even though he won’t have fully committed to his system, he would have started to work out who is physically ready for his system.

Hindsight is great and don’t get me wrong I’d rather he commits to his system from day one like he has than completely scrap his ideals like ETH did. My suggestion was to take a more phased approach to ease his ideas across when he knew he was starting during a period where time on the training pitch was extremely limited.
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Phased approach is fine as evolution is easier to coach than revolution, but how and where to you start with a "phased approach" when it's literally an entirely new system?

As we all know, we've been in the Dark Ages tactically for a long, long time. Arguably even before SAF left.

Football has changed immeasurably in the last decade, and we have been incredibly slow to modernise. Often having a little go at whatever was fashionable at the time, without really committing, and then immediately reverting to 4-2-3-1 middle block when it didn't work!

For these reasons, there's simply more to do. Amorim isn't standing on the shoulders of giants, he's inheriting a team so outdated it's basically fossilised.
 
sammyhol said:
Essay incoming....

I'm very much hoping to be proved wrong on this one, but to me it seems our squad is a million miles away from suiting his philosophy/shape. So regardless of how good the potential of the system is, or how many training sessions he has, it feels nigh on impossible to make the squad changes needed with PSR restrictions and our current situation with crazy contracts.

I think the most robust way of looking at it is position by position, based on the clear characteristics required by Amorim:

GK
  • Key needs: Reliable part of the build up phases
  • Good first 11 option? Despite the flaws with his fundamentals, I would say Onana is probably well suited to system
RCB
  • Key needs: Right footed, mobile, aggressive in tackle, press resistant, good progressive passer
  • Good first 11 option? Yup - Maz looks perfect for it.
CCB
  • Key needs: Aerially dominant, good switch of play, good reading of the game, ideally pace
  • Good first 11 option? Noone currently perfect, but would expect one of De Ligt or Yoro to eventually make it there own eventually
LCB
  • Key needs: Left footed, mobile, aggressive in tackle, press resistant, good progressive passer
  • Good first 11 option? Nope. Massive Need. Shaw never fit, Martinez clearly not mobile enough to cover the ground exposed by lack of a traditional LB
The two 8s
  • Key needs: Mobile. Ball winners. Athletic. Ball retention. Progressive passers
  • Good first 11 option(s)? Only Ugarte. Massive Need. None of the other options have the mobility required
Wing backs
  • Key needs: Mobile. Athletic. creative in 1 on 1 situations, prepare to chase back and do the dirty work
  • Good first 11 option(s)? Massive Need (x2). Although Amad clearly can do it on the right... I see his future in the R10 role. Absolutely no options on the left
The two 10s
  • Key needs: Mobile. Great in tight spaces, intricate interplay, last pass, eye for goal, take-on ability
  • Good first 11 option(s) Between Amad, Bruno, Mainoo, Mount, and dare I say Sancho (despite how awful he has been his strengths seem almost perfectly aligned to the L10 role) you'd like to think we should be ok
ST
  • Key needs: Mobile. Fast. Channel running. Hold up. Able to compete aerially. Clinical
  • Good first 11 option? Nope. Massive Need. Neither Hojlund or Zirkzee are well rounded enough, or of the quality required.

I make that a minimum of 5 first team positions where we don't have a competent first 11 option. How long is it going to take make those required changes? And will he get the time if he keeps losing? And keep losing he will if half of his outfield selections can't do what is being asked of them.

Like it or not, we could for the time be fielding a comfortably competent 4231. And I'm not talking the suicidal 41 (massive gap) 41 ETH did for his last 18 months.... basically do what Ruud did for 4 games.

So to conclude, I think Ruben has been a bit silly in his interviews by making a rod for his own back with his lack of tactical flexibility. He could have explained the direction of travel without having been so rigid, and people would have gone along with it. Now he has made it make or break on a system he hasnt got the player for.
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Good post that, and is exactly how I see things.

We appear to have gone full on with a system we're ill prepared to implement in any sort of meaningful way in the short term (rest of this season), and probably the medium term too (apparently don't have the money to buy, or players commanding a decent fee likely to want to leave any time soon).

We could potentially sell Garnacho and get a decent amount which we could use towards a striker who'd need to be much better than Zirkzee and Hojlund in every way really.

Maybe get rid of some others for lower fees and with any luck have enough from that to pull a couple of wingbacks who offer some attacking threat out of our arse. We could probably start working more effectively with that and tweak from there.

That's the biggest issue for me, we're playing a formation that relies on significant attacking threat to come from three positions in which we simply don't have any real quality in the squad.
 
Lentwood said:
immediately reverting to 4-2-3-1 middle block when it didn't work!
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But it did work though didn’t it.

It didn’t work for Ole because he didn’t have the personnel in midfield.

But the addition of Casemiro and Eriksen gave us the ball playing midfield options to get the ball into attacking areas more quickly. It had to be compensated for by playing a mid block, compact defensive shape to account for their lack of mobility, with attacks focused around counters, which just so happened to suit our attackers too. 30 goal rashford anyone?!

Reminder… 3rd. A cup. Another final, a European qtr. Plenty of progress, and marginal improvements possible for the following season.

We then moved away from 4231 at the start of ETHs second season, and we were terrible.

It does my head in when people say 4231 doesn’t work, because the last time we did it was probably our best season post Ferguson.
 
He shouldn't adapt because he said he wouldn't and he'd now look an idiot if he did.

If on the other hand if he, or someone else we brought in if not him said they were going to change things gradually I think there'd be a lot of support for that too, simply because people want to back the new manager with whatever approach he's telling us. Free pass at the start.

How would you do it gradually? Either wait until after after the busy period and you have more training ground time, or pick and choose depending on opponent. Difficult, but Brentford kind of did it, albeit going the other way. They exclusively played 3 central defenders their first season up (21/22) until February before starting to switch to 4 at the back in certain matches. They still change a lot now actually, but if they'd have wanted to make a permanent change I'm sure they could have by the time 22/23 started having worked on it over the summer plus having those games at the back end of the previous campaign.
 
fergiewherearethou said:
I would love to be optimistic about Amorim and I was in his first few games, but watching what happened afterwards threw every bit of optimism out the window. Hope I am wrong though and things will start to improve.
I just don't remember any successful manager losing that many games and in the manner that we did at the start of his career. I remember Klopp struggling at the start for Liverpool, but I'd say it wasn't this bad. Also Pioli at Milan had a rough start but not like this.

Some fans say that Amorim should not adapt but some of the great managers in history always adapted, imagine Ferguson playing the same 442 for 25+ years, and the examples continue.
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Klopp reached the Europa final in his first season and qualified for the Champions League in his second. He had their fans well and truly behind him after they beat us and Dortmund in that Europa run.

This is a point that I keep making but Amorim needs some small wins this season. Whether that's a few wins against rivals or a good cup run, he needs some positives to take into next season. Otherwise the pressure by August/September will be immense. He's potentially being offered something that's very rare in modern football. Time. But he can't keep losing.
 
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I'm happy for him to simply sink or swim doing what he knows. You don't hire a coach to survive and limp along as we have done for many years, you see what he can do and then decide if you want to back him.
 
Not adapting at all suggests that a style developed in a completely different league with a completely different set of players can be applied without any adjustments, which is of course - nonsense.

All great managers adapt, even someone as principled and obsessed with coaching like Pep has tweaked his approach season to season.

A lot of great managers tweak their approach for specific games as well - the suggestion that we must charge ahead focusing on a singular vision regardless of all circumstance or context is bonkers.

The desperation for Amorim to succeed is manifesting itself in really strange ways. I believe in him, but he should not be beyond criticism especially when results are this bad.

Outside of football if you want to deliver change you need to take people on the journey, not apply the change overnight to a team that isn’t ready for it and don’t have the ability to bring the vision to life.
 
sammyhol said:
But it did work though didn’t it.

It didn’t work for Ole because he didn’t have the personnel in midfield.

But the addition of Casemiro and Eriksen gave us the ball playing midfield options to get the ball into attacking areas more quickly. It had to be compensated for by playing a mid block, compact defensive shape to account for their lack of mobility, with attacks focused around counters, which just so happened to suit our attackers too. 30 goal rashford anyone?!

Reminder… 3rd. A cup. Another final, a European qtr. Plenty of progress, and marginal improvements possible for the following season.

We then moved away from 4231 at the start of ETHs second season, and we were terrible.

It does my head in when people say 4231 doesn’t work, because the last time we did it was probably our best season post Ferguson.
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I didn't say it didn't work. I have been on record many times as saying it does work.

The problem is, it works well enough to score about 70/75 points or so...but not well enough to score 90pts+ and compete at the business end of the Champions League.

It's a nice, safe formation that the players are comfortable with, is hard to break down and provides bodies in central areas.

History has shown us that we inevitably end up drawing too many games when we stick with this system in its most basic implementation for prolonged periods.
 
Lentwood said:
Phased approach is fine as evolution is easier to coach than revolution, but how and where to you start with a "phased approach" when it's literally an entirely new system?

As we all know, we've been in the Dark Ages tactically for a long, long time. Arguably even before SAF left.

Football has changed immeasurably in the last decade, and we have been incredibly slow to modernise. Often having a little go at whatever was fashionable at the time, without really committing, and then immediately reverting to 4-2-3-1 middle block when it didn't work!

For these reasons, there's simply more to do. Amorim isn't standing on the shoulders of giants, he's inheriting a team so outdated it's basically fossilised.
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I’ve literally described where he could start.
 
Globule said:
Garnacho was the most threatening, but that's a low bar. He had moments where he looked like he could become an elite player. But plenty of moments that undermine that. Like Rashford before him.

How about this time we don't throw all our eggs into building around a player that may not actually be as good as we hoped.
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I would also suggest that Mazraoui is better as a right back and Bruno better as the sole 10 behind the striker.
If we're selling a lot of these players then why not use them in their best positions for now to get a few results.
A relegation battle can't be acceptable.

Ideally we'd sign a top lwb and striker and go with the new system but we don't seem to have the money.
 
It all comes down to whether we believe in Amorim or not.

Realistically were not going to get neither top 4 nor relegated, I choose to believe in Amorim so changing the style/system in order to get a better position that's not going to make any meaningful difference is not worth it. This season is already a write off, so I'm willing to let Amorim use it as he please.

We all criticized ten Hag for never implementing the style his Ajax side had, we brought Amorim for what's he's accomplished so let him work on it. There needs to be belief on the players side, these results aren't helping but changing the system or tactics will only be seen as Amorim having doubts, if it happens there's no returning point the players won't buy it. We were told about this from Sporting fans, it takes time but once it clicks it's great.

The results will improve trust the process.
 
I agree completely with your whole post. However, we can talk about systems and playstyles as much as you like. We can play with 3 at the back, 4 or even 7 at the back and still concede from straight from a cornerkick.

I'm 35, I can't even remember when I saw a straight corner goal the last time. With United it happened twice in 3 games.

Our mentality, our professionalism and our general approach to games is just lacklustre and it doesn't even matter who is the trainer or manager. I never see a team try as many flicks or cool passes as we try while we are super bad. We can't even do the basics right, most of our passes are almost always BEHIND the receiver. players seemly don't understand what an overlapping back is as we almost never utilize it or try the pass for an easy cut back.

We are kings in killing our own momentum with rookie mistakes.
 
It’s all very well sticking to your principles but if he can’t convince the players that 343 is the right formation he’ll be sacked in a month or two.

He’s got to get the team onboard with this radical tactical change.
 
What's with the warning on the OP. Seems pretty bang on to where I'm at with what I want Amorim to do
 
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