Why Amorim should not “adapt”

You've explained this very well so thank you for that.

I wish everyone who is whinging would take a minute to read and have a little think about what you have said.
I think you and OP who use words like "naivety" and "whinging" are talking under an assumption that everyone believes "Amorim is the One" and "This is the way".
Not everyone will be convinced that good times are just around the corner after a string of losses. It is not because others are blind fools who are unable to see the awesomeness of these tactics. Many managers adapt and be pragmatic when things don't work.

Having said that, I would love to see how Amorim turns it around (hopefully) in January and February as the players go through more sessions. I would be worried if it looks like we need a complete new set of players in summer, because it is not gonna happen.
 
We were screaming for Ten Hag to be more pragmatic, rather than leaving the midfield wide open, so I'm not surprised there's carry over given the league position.

I give Amorim a clean slate because he is trying to work towards something and it is going to take time to properly bed in and also requires some players to be brought into fill specific roles we don't have an appropriate player for at the present time. So no, I don't expect it all to be peachy, I did think it might be a little better than it has been so far though.
 
Let's address a couple of points :-

"Amorim doesn't have the players to play this system"
In order to know whether someone is able to play in this system, they must first actually play games in the system; and with only four training sessions completed on tactical and system work, it's naive to assume that they can't until they have all the instruction and details in how to operate within the system and their specific role in it. Players aren't cogs; they're multi-faceted and multi-purpose professional football players. There's no such thing as a "wing-back" or a "full-back". There's only players that play well as a wing-back or a full-back. Just because someone has always played somewhere, it doesn't mean that they will always play there. You must permit Amorim the space and the time to get the repetitions and the training in so that each player can be assessed accurately.

"Amorim needs to go back to four-at-the-back"
He does not need to go back to four-at-the-back. Firstly, the xG conceded and the shots per game with four-at-the-back was tremendously bad under ten Hag. It was also bad under previous managers. It would be a naive decision to revert back to a previous setup that has demonstrably failed time and time again. Secondly, Amorim is unfamiliar with this interpretation of his philosophy. You cannot just ask him to start training a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 base with his system if he himself has never done so. Now is not the time to experiment with familiar philosophies and unfamiliar profiles. Furthermore, he cannot just teach someone else's system. His ideas in the build-up, in the transitions, in the possession, in the various phases of the game are explicitly tied to his idea about player profiles and roles.

"It's obvious that it's not working so far"
I would argue that, if you pay attention to the underlying performance statistics, that it's not so binary as you would like to think. Under ten Hag, with four-at-the-back, we conceded the 2nd most shots per game in the entire league. Under Amorim, until recently, Amorim went seven games registering under 1xG conceded, which includes games vs. City and Arsenal. Of course, we can cite very poor results in part, however, the statistics tell us that we've been conceding infinitely more goals than the data suggests we should, which is in part a result of a lot of individual mistakes and the opposition taking advantage of every opportunity afforded at a rate way above their own xG production. One also only has to look at the sample within those seven games to see that we conceded so few touches in our 18 yard box. This is not a mistake, or a coincidence. The system itself is very good; the application is inconsistent because we have had no training sessions in which to understand it to any significant degree.

Like Amorim said; if he reverts to something like what they've been playing under ten Hag, then he'll have to delay the learning for a season, and then the process will only be delayed down the line only for us to be in the same position then as now. But at least if he persists with the new system, those that are truly compatible will be kept, and those who aren't will be dispensed with, leaving us with a summer transfer window knowing already who will, and who won't fit his footballing vision.

Time to put your money where your mouth is. For years you've been talking about a manager coming in with a distinct identity, and someone who sticks to his identity. Under ten Hag you got adaptable. Under ten Hag you got someone who compromised for the sake of the squad available, and it didn't work. Had ten Hag tried to implement something akin to his Ajax philosophy, then who knows where we'd be. If Rangnick had persisted with trying to implement his Leipzig philosophy, then who knows where we'd be. Let the man get his ideas across in his own way, in his own time.


Great post!

If we are conceding this much in a 3, when defending we become a 5 , 2CB in a 4231 would be worse. For example Dalot at LB was responsible for goals in at least 5 of ETH's last matches. They were headless chicken playing a donut formation under ETH.

It's not as of these lot were well drilled in ETH's formation. We were crap. With Amorim we can see the system and currently individual errors or nervous players have cost us.
 
There is no magical lineup or tactical formula that will make these players good. Of course 20 training sessions would help a bit but the main issue is that the players are not good enough. Klopp was successful because he bought players who were a good fit for his system, existing players were not good enough. Salah and van Dijk would excel in any system.
 
It’s naive to think two Portuguese titles means Amorim can’t royally feck up possibly the hardest job in football.
Plenty of bigger names have come to the Premier League and flopped.

I really like the guy, he’s proper charismatic and has all the qualities I want to see in a United boss, but I’m absolutely concerned the job might swallow him up if he is so determined to be an idealist.
 
It’s naive to think two Portuguese titles means Amorim can’t royally feck up possibly the hardest job in football.
Plenty of bigger names have come to the Premier League and flopped.

I really like the guy, he’s proper charismatic and has all the qualities I want to see in a United boss, but I’m absolutely concerned the job might swallow him up if he is so determined to be an idealist.
Have you actually read the OP? It explains how he is not being an idealist ffs

On topic - great OP and agree completely.
 
I don't think k he needs to change the system or "adapt" in the sense of going back to what the players are used to. Agree with the OP points about it taking players time to get used to playing in a different system and with different ideals.

I also think it's equally naive though to think Amorim doesn't have to adapt to managing a different set of players, for a different team, in a different league. Things that worked for Sporting aren't necessarily going to work the same for United. Pep had to adapt in his early time at City. Klopp had to adapt at Liverpool. Sir Alex would adapt for certain opponents.

You can impose your system and style but you do also need to recognise the environment you're in, the competition and what you have to work with. I don't think it's as simple as "this is Amorims ideal so it will work once hes had time". It's not like he can go out and sign whoever he wants in the summer or magic players he has into being good at exactly what he wants them to be good at.

A good current example of someone who refuses to adapt to anything is Ange, and it doesn't work too well.

Not that I'm saying Amirim won't adapt when he needs to. Time will tell, but it'd be silly to think it isn't a part of being a good manager.
 
He should not change, and I believe INEOS is fully backing him, the players have to accept there is new style and adapt to it, they will have to get used to it or they will be sidelined.

This is not only for the players to learn the style, it's also for Amorim and his coaching staff to learn the PL and make the necessary tweaks to their own style to ensure it works too.
 
I’m quite happy for him to persevere, but he definitely needs to figure out the whole left hand side in general for our attacking play. Whether that be getting a LWB in January or playing someone there we cannot keep having Dalot kill attacks.

Onana
Alvaro?
Yoro
De Ligt
Maz
Antony (can’t believe I’m saying that)
Ugarte
Bruno
Mainoo
Diallo
Hojlund

Could potentially move Amad back to RWB if Mount returns, or playing Antony/Garnacho LWB.

Leaves a bench of Bayindir/Dalot/Martinez/Maguire/Casemiro/Garnacho/Rashford/Zirkzee

Hopefully he’s doubled the amount of time with them on the training pitch in one week this week so maybe going forward it will be better.
 
The original thread title called out other viewpoints as naivety. Not sure if the OP had some content that was also calling out other posters.
Yes, both. Since the discussion didn't take the bait on that and has been good, we edited the OP a little to remove those elements and help keep a good discussion going.
 
Personally I'm sick to death of the cycle we've been trapped in since Moyes. I'm more than happy to "suffer" this season, and potentially into next season, in order to see if we can reap some rewards from a manager persisting with one system, whilst also being backed by a footballing structure that can provide suitable players for said system.

Our scattergun and adhoc approach is what has led us to this disasterously dysfunctional squad. We need the club and fans to align on one path and not divert after a handful of bad results. I hate to sound like a Labour shill, but we do genuinely need real change
 
Completely. In Rueben we have a coach who is feels more like the right man. He is generally much better at setting the team up, much better at his in game management and 1000x better with his communication skills with the press. (His one blot has to be the Casemiro/Erikson pairing in the Newcastle game but his options were extremely limited and Mainoo had played a stinker in the previous game so I'll give him some latitude)

The 343 is way maligned here but as we have seen in a number of games it's a very adaptable system and he is very experienced in tweeking it.

With no midweek game this week and next week there should be a chance to have three proper trainings both weeks. Hopefully it will be a chance to drill the players more deeply than he's been able to before.

He however is blighted with the worst attacking options I've seen in my 45 years as a supporter. There is no system that makes us a consistent threat in front of goal. As is written in every thread on here, his left sided options are particularly weak. If I was given the chance to swap our forward line with any other PL club I think I'd take it - it's that bad.

Couple that with our unforced errors and our set plays and it's a really troubling time. I hope for a signing or two now but it's looking unlikely. However Rueben does feel like the right fit long term. If only we can give him the same 600m to spend.
 
Where have all the pundits gone that said our squad suited the style that Ruben wanted to implement???
These clowns are unbelievable!
 
Absolutely bang on. Let Amorim do what he was brought here to do.
 
I have a good feeling about Ruben and I hope he can switch off and not listen to the dross that always seem to want to see the negative.
 
I agree he should stick to his philosophy at this point even if it means we will finish 12th in the table. We could make the most of not being in european competitions next season, and go all out on signing players that will immediately improve our XI. If we somehow manage to sign a left wingback, one or two midfielders, and a striker I could us being so much better next sesaon, especially after a full pre-season. Means we can trim down the squad, and get rid off players that simply aren't cut out for it as well.
 
This is why we should have sacked Ten Hag after the FA cup. If Amorim had the whole summer plus the start of the season (which is always a slog), then it would have been much easier to gage whether or not we're on the right track. Not to mention we could have signed players capable of playing his brand of football.

This season has to be a write off now. But we're of course forced to ask ourselves; how low is too low? Is there a base level even for managers joining mid-season and changing our style completely?
 
I agree with your sentiment @Hoof the ball , though I do understand alternate views too.

If you take the previous reign, adapting to counter styles with that squad was likely seen as the right play, because we finished with a strong point total, comfortably in 3rd place with a cup.

The expectation was to then build the style he was signed for, which he didnt do.

These people asking for Amorim to tweak are not asking to sacrifice his principles forever. Their argument is an elite manager should be able to tweak to navigate rough periods - which Amorim does when his team is fully built but clearly struggles with when he has a 443 squad.

These people are saying that come summer he should then build to his system, and dispose of the noise.

I respect that view but I am more on your side, because forcing this system drills the squad he has earlier and he can work out who works and who doesnt. Also if he has some players (say Rashford) who hit a purple patch in a tweaked formation he may struggle to convince the board to sell him knowing hes not suitable for the prime system.

Amorim does need to learn quickly about his selection mistakes though - like the horror selection last week and the infuriating test of Dalot at LWB. He also needs to organise our backline on dealing with crosses. These are all quicker fixes that are killing us, making us lose 5 on the trot.
 
Where have all the pundits gone that said our squad suited the style that Ruben wanted to implement???
These clowns are unbelievable!

I think Maz, De Ligt, Yoro & Martinez (in any kind of form) suit it.
The keeper suits.

Ugarte suits.

I think this is a strong line-up for those roles.

Onana

Maz De Ligt Yoro

Urgarte​

The glaring issues start then. Mainoo, despite the obvious talent, seems too lost in any system currently so who plays alongside Ugarte is tricky.

Højlund isn’t looking good enough right now, don’t think a change of system helps there.

Amad, Dalot, Rashford, Garnacho don’t really have a role in this system where you think ”yes, this works for them”, but at least Amad is making a go of it.

The glaring issues for me are wing back and centre forward, bizarrely Amad has been our best performing wing back.
I don’t believe Dalot nor Maz are suited to wing back roles so Amorim will have find someone else in the squad to try there. We have options I believe.
We have no options at CF.
 
The other point is that regardless of whether people actually agree with his approach or not, he has been absolutely clear from day one that this is what he needs to do and that changing because of bad results would completely undermine his vision for the team.

And having so explicitly set his stall out on that point, changing approach now would do more damage to confidence in him than a season of relatively poor results. Because having an idea he'll introduce and stick to from day one has been his entire pitch as manager. He can't undermine himself by switching from that now as it will look like he doesn't know what he's doing and is panicking.
 
Personally I'm sick to death of the cycle we've been trapped in since Moyes. I'm more than happy to "suffer" this season, and potentially into next season, in order to see if we can reap some rewards from a manager persisting with one system, whilst also being backed by a footballing structure that can provide suitable players for said system.

Our scattergun and adhoc approach is what has led us to this disasterously dysfunctional squad. We need the club and fans to align on one path and not divert after a handful of bad results. I hate to sound like a Labour shill, but we do genuinely need real change

What stagecwould it need to get to before accepting it wasbtvworking though?

E.g. if we end up in a relegation battle this season and next?

I agree with a lot of what Amorim has said about needing to change now rather than go backwards. They key to that is that the change needs to be something that works...and at some point there needs to be some shred of evidence that it is working.

When you look at all the best managers, they do tend to have and impose their own methods amd style...but they will also adapt it to the situation, towards the players they have etc. Not many are hellbent on playing the same system every game.

We will have more or less the same group of players this season and substantially the same group next, so he will need to make whatever he does work with those players.

I'm not against Amorim at all btw. He might do all of these things and it is important he sticks to his ideals at the same time. I'm just playing devil's advocate to some degree because I think blindly backing someone or something just because it's different from the last thing is dangerously naive.

I also think what goes on above Amorim is just as if not more important, and the "backing" of INEOS has already proven to be extremely temporary or fleeting for others.
 
I would love to be optimistic about Amorim and I was in his first few games, but watching what happened afterwards threw every bit of optimism out the window. Hope I am wrong though and things will start to improve.
I just don't remember any successful manager losing that many games and in the manner that we did at the start of his career. I remember Klopp struggling at the start for Liverpool, but I'd say it wasn't this bad. Also Pioli at Milan had a rough start but not like this.

Some fans say that Amorim should not adapt but some of the great managers in history always adapted, imagine Ferguson playing the same 442 for 25+ years, and the examples continue.
 
Last edited:
He has to get results though.
Garnacho, who on his day is our most threatening attacker, seems to be nullified in this formation as he’s not great with back to goal or in tight spaces on the turn. He’s better as a winger facing the fullback.
Maybe he should try Garnacho as lwb.
I think we desperately need at least one player in the transfer window if he is to persist no matter what with the system.
 
Time will tell if he's the right man for the job, but he's absolutely right to stick to his guns with his preferred formation and style. That's why we hired him.

How many of us were questioning Ten Hag for doing the exact opposite. He got his for the football he played at Ajax, then compromised this because the players at his disposal and never got it to work.

It's not like these players were looking like a well drilled unit before being asked to change, so he's not exactly breaking something that's fixed. The message to the players that have underperformed so consistently for so long now needs to be adapt or leave.
 
He has to get results though.
Garnacho, who on his day is our most threatening attacker, seems to be nullified in this formation as he’s not great with back to goal or in tight spaces on the turn. He’s better as a winger facing the fullback.
Maybe he should try Garnacho as lwb.
I think we desperately need at least one player in the transfer window if he is to persist no matter what with the system.

Garnacho was the most threatening, but that's a low bar. He had moments where he looked like he could become an elite player. But plenty of moments that undermine that. Like Rashford before him.

How about this time we don't throw all our eggs into building around a player that may not actually be as good as we hoped.
 
Time will tell if he's the right man for the job, but he's absolutely right to stick to his guns with his preferred formation and style. That's why we hired him.

How many of us were questioning Ten Hag for doing the exact opposite. He got his for the football he played at Ajax, then compromised this because the players at his disposal and never got it to work.

Is that really what happened with ETH?

He brought in the following players:

De Ligt, Martinez, Maz, Onana, Antony, Zirkzee, Höjlund, Malacia, Mount, Ugarte, Casemiro, Yoro, Eriksen. He promoted Amad and Garnacho to the first team.

That's 15 players during his team, he didn't "compromise" at all, the truth is, despite buying 5 of his Ajax 11 and adding 10 more players to that first tean group, he didn't know how to set up a midfield that could work in the Premier League, and ultimately that lead to his downfall. Appears the Ajax academy deserves more kudos than ETH for those Ajax sides.
 
I agree, and I like Amorim but the timing is so wrong and reflects bad on Berrada and whoever does the calls.

Bringing in someone so devoted to a style and formation so far from what the current lot fits and then not being able to support him with transfers is just so grim.

I had hoped things would change with INEOS and perhaps they will, but this sort of chaos business is what has ruined our club for over a decade.
 
The key thing is the majority of the players will be in this team next season so we may as well embed the system now. You can see some of his Sporting tactics in this team already, Martinez finding the 10 directly whilst the WB stays wide for an another option for instance. Amad as WB attacking the box and defensive line is another.

Once you start filling in the gaps (mainly WB) we should progress quickly because the rest of the team will already know their role and more importantly what their team mates role is.

I don't agree with all his selections but I've seen enough to say he has a plan and a way forward. Whether it ultimately works who knows but he deserves time to put it in place.
 
I agree to an extent, but at the same time we shouldn't be treating every manager that comes in the door as a miracle worker who if we give him months and months of time, and millions worth of transfers for his system we'll be a force. Evidence has to be there along the journey to earn that trust, such as glimpses of the performances and football we're going to get more consistently in 2-3 years. He needs to win both the fan base and (certain) players over. That includes picking up results also, not just against the City's of the league but the teams we should be beating. We've got to start frying the small fish first before we get to the big ones.
 
I think the worrying trend at the moment is that players are looking at the manager during games to see where they are supposed to be standing, or who they should be playing the ball to. This is crazy.

I recall after the Bodo Glimt game, Amorim said that Bodo were hard to play against, because all the players knew their positions, where to stand and where to pass without even looking, it was second nature to them. And this is what he wanted his team to be like.

Looking at the manger for advice while the ball is in play is something that you would only see at schoolboy level, and yet these are international players.

My only hope for the Liverpool game is that we keep the score down to a minimum defeat. 1-0 will do. 7 - 0 would be headline news and more pressure.
 
I think the worrying trend at the moment is that players are looking at the manager during games to see where they are supposed to be standing, or who they should be playing the ball to. This is crazy.

I recall after the Bodo Glimt game, Amorim said that Bodo were hard to play against, because all the players knew their positions, where to stand and where to pass without even looking, it was second nature to them. And this is what he wanted his team to be like.

Looking at the manger for advice while the ball is in play is something that you would only see at schoolboy level, and yet these are international players.

My only hope for the Liverpool game is that we keep the score down to a minimum defeat. 1-0 will do. 7 - 0 would be headline news and more pressure.
I think you're a bit harsh on the players. If we want to allow Amorim time to teach them a whole new system, this sort of confusion is unavoidable and the players deserve time too.

Their instincts seem to suggest something, but the manager has asked them to do something else entirely. At this level, half-a-second's hesitation would be enough for the other team to cut through.

Or maybe Amorim is shit at explaining his ideas to them. Only time will tell.
 
Looking at the manger for advice while the ball is in play is something that you would only see at schoolboy level, and yet these are international players.
I remember that a lot under LvG, throughout his tenure too. Right now, after a few matches, and with hardly any training time, I don't see it as a problem. Maybe if it carries on, but not yet.
 
Last edited:
Partially agree with the OP but other sentiments are also valid.

The one criteria very few have touched on which is perhaps the most important is if such a bad season is deemed acceptable to INEOS to the degree that Amorim's job wouldn't be under scrutiny. I'm not in any way confident that if the trajectory of United this remaining season is to finish 15th that the manager will remain beyond the following campaign.

Ratcliffe's omission on multiple occasions when asked if he trusts Erik spoke volumes at the particular time and it clearly was an issue in isolation given the reports around Ashworth's dismissal. The silence around the hierarchy presently is ultimately an indictment against Amorim it's naive to think otherwise given the behaviour of INEOS in recent months.

Ruben is the only one who's given the notion about storms etc neither Berrada, Wilcox or anyone else has reinforced this perspective. Losing games that the team should be beating especially around the bottom half won't come down to systems or tactics with his superiors, Amorim said himself it's a result based vocation.

I can see him running out of rope before the seasons end, and if the rope is representative of anything it would be his superiors patience, support and encouragement. That's excluding the diminished confidence of even the most competent players in the system. It doesn't matter if it's 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3 things have to improve it's absolutely imperative.
 
Actual change unless it’s instantly successful terrifies this fanbase.

Other clubs can go through change without continuously losing games home and away, and barely a single goal scored. With Manchester United, the fans seem to have to accept the most extreme and ruthless version of everything and they're told to just suck it up. Not denying change isn't happening but there has to be standards along the way. I'm sure Ruben will agree.