Fair enough, I was sure it was picked up on during that spell Ole had.
It seems to be a common theme though which will surely need attention by the new gaffer
Who's responsible for our (lack of) fitness?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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Fair enough, I was sure it was picked up on during that spell Ole had.
It seems to be a common theme though which will surely need attention by the new gaffer
We saw these kinds of stats towards the end of Jose’s tenure. Very little work rate and a squad being consistently outran by the opposition. It picked up when Ole took over and we all praised the progress. Now here we are, history repeating. Go figure.
Did it? Can you find any posts with stats about improved workrate compared to other teams under Ole? Or even posts where people discuss this?
They all need to go down to local puregym and do some cycle classes and problem solved
How dare you point out facts dear sir flameinthemoon, stick to the narrative that pep and klopp "man-managed" and "convinced" the players they inherited to play the way they want. A good manager can polish turd like pep and klopp have so clearly shown, therefore, if our players downtool then too it is the managers fault for not "man-managing" them and "convincing" them to not downtool. It is always the managers fault.
Why do you desire the managers authority to be restored ? Don't you know it is the managers duty to persuade downtooling players to follow his instructions ? Have you forgotten how fergie coddled players into following his instructions ?
I remember there being talk of it, but I don’t have any data to support that. Our workrate was pretty much rock bottom by the time Jose was booted and I’m pretty sure we didn’t manage 2nd and 3rd placed spots while being outran by every other team.
Down to each man to maintain his own fitness.
It's not a coaches or nutritionists job to make players fit. They can assist where needed. Players need to take ownership of themselves.
It's not a coaches or nutritionists job to make players fit. They can assist where needed. Players need to take ownership of themselves.
I mean they could have run more if they were arsed. I don't think you can put any of these lacklustre performances down to fitness.
Its lack of effort and even understanding what "effort" is, not fitness.
Take Ronaldo, for example, sometimes he'll charge about like a mad man and sometimes he'll just wander about gesticulating at his teammates. That's not effort, "effort" is consistently running hard for 90-minutes.
I have picked on Ronaldo but could add Pogba, Rashford and Sancho to that. They are all guilty of bursts of effort and thinking that's enough. When did we last see a player of ours leave the field physically exhausted?
Take Ronaldo, for example, sometimes he'll charge about like a mad man and sometimes he'll just wander about gesticulating at his teammates. That's not effort, "effort" is consistently running hard for 90-minutes.
I have picked on Ronaldo but could add Pogba, Rashford and Sancho to that. They are all guilty of bursts of effort and thinking that's enough. When did we last see a player of ours leave the field physically exhausted?
Ole probably went soft on them after the legitimate concern of a lack of rest and preseason a few years ago and we never motivated ourselves to get back
That's because the team barely played in the first 60 mins and only start to out in effort in the last 30 mins or so.
It's hard to say whether it stems from physical fitness or a lack of effort and desire to put in the work top sides typically do. I don't even think some of these players know what it means to do so, as they've never been at that level.
It seems to me there are very few games when we look shattered because we've tried to play intensity and then physical fitness lets us down. I don't think we ever reach that stage.
The next manager will have to look at all areas in a bid to rectify this. It's probably not one thing.
It seems to me there are very few games when we look shattered because we've tried to play intensity and then physical fitness lets us down. I don't think we ever reach that stage.
The next manager will have to look at all areas in a bid to rectify this. It's probably not one thing.
Like many things at this club, I feel it's a combination of many factors over an almost ten-year period. We've flip-flopped from one manager to the next with seemingly no planning whatsoever. We've lurched from one "style" of player to the other, while still having many players from the previous regime. Obviously, each manager has a different focus. Some purport to want to focus on fitness, while others take a different approach.
Also, we've been under-coached for years. Especially compared to our biggest rivals. You really have to look at United holistically when assessing where we are now. It's never one person's fault. It's just a series of woeful decisions over nearly a decade, that has snowballed into what we currently are.
Also, we've been under-coached for years. Especially compared to our biggest rivals. You really have to look at United holistically when assessing where we are now. It's never one person's fault. It's just a series of woeful decisions over nearly a decade, that has snowballed into what we currently are.
Well... I think a case could be made that the man in charge of everything would be the one at fault? That is, the CEO - Woodward.
Yes. You're not wrong there, I suppose.
I was focusing solely on managers/players/coaches.
But you're right, that man has presided over all of it.
This is how I see it, the players have all got reasonable fitness levels but it is heart and desire and real will to go the extra yard that makes the difference. Peps City have got it, Klopps Liverpool have got it and Chelsea showed great fight and desire against Real Madrid even though the mountain was too big to climb in the end. We struggled to work up a sweat against Everton and looked like we didn`t care. In years gone by our title winning players would leave the field totally spent giving everything for the shirt, players like Rooney, Fletcher, Park, Neville and Evra. You never see our current attackers leaving the field being substituted soaked in sweat after giving everything they can on the pitch.
Are you suggesting that we don’t have best in class in *looks at notes* former reserve team and England under 21 defender Michael Clegg?
These are, or I should say are supposed to be elite athletes at their prime age for physical fitness.
And achieving high levels of physical fitness should be the easiest thing to achieve at their age given the facilities available.
They play for typically 45 minutes then have a 15 minute rest, followed by another 45 minutes.
And from what I regularly see, the outfield players often spend the majority of that time either walking or moving at low speed.
There are then a number of fast pace runs of typically 30/50 meters, followed by yet more walking recovery time.
I can see no reason at all why an elite athlete in their 20's or 30's should not be able to run non stop at medium pace for 45 minutes and cover up to 10km each half.
I was a very average club runner. And I could easily do a 10k on a flat surface in well under 45 minutes... and that during my late 50's (I did a 10k in 39 minutes at 56). And I was bang average at best.
So I am frankly appalled at the low level of running I see at United.
And achieving high levels of physical fitness should be the easiest thing to achieve at their age given the facilities available.
They play for typically 45 minutes then have a 15 minute rest, followed by another 45 minutes.
And from what I regularly see, the outfield players often spend the majority of that time either walking or moving at low speed.
There are then a number of fast pace runs of typically 30/50 meters, followed by yet more walking recovery time.
I can see no reason at all why an elite athlete in their 20's or 30's should not be able to run non stop at medium pace for 45 minutes and cover up to 10km each half.
I was a very average club runner. And I could easily do a 10k on a flat surface in well under 45 minutes... and that during my late 50's (I did a 10k in 39 minutes at 56). And I was bang average at best.
So I am frankly appalled at the low level of running I see at United.
Jaysus. Really? Is this his first big job?!
He spent 10+ years at Sunderland after Keane hired him before coming back to us.
Surely this is just another example of gross mismanagement at the club. I will give you an example, my son is currently training with the adults/seniors at our local hurling club. They are routinely doing bleep tests, bronco tests, using GPS to track training and matches, who is working hard, how much time is spent in the red zone and what their top speeds are. And this is for an amateur club side who are benchmarked against the top teams. There is no way this is not happening at every professional club. If the evidence is there that players are not tracking back or working hard enough throw it up on a screen in front of them and shame them. If they get upset boohoo. And if they don't put the effort in drop them. United have been nowhere near ruthless enough for a long time. Hopefully Ten Hag can bring back a bit of ruthlessness.
I don't have any stats on hand, but I remember it being quite obvious to the eye that our workrate and attempts to press and run went up significantly for the first two months or so after Ole came in. That seemed to lead to quite a lot of injuries, and we then took our foot off the pedal and started sitting back more and being more of a counter-attack team again. At the time it felt sensible, but I think most of us expected the team to slowly be built up (especially over the pre-season) so we could move towards that more aggressive and high-energy football which it did seem Ole wanted to play. Obviously that never happened, so whether that was because Ole actively decided that he didn't want to do that or if he felt he simply couldn't get the players to do it is something we'll never know (personally I think it was probably the latter).
I second this and almost mentioned it in my earlier post but I didn't want to turn the thread into yet another Ole bash/Ole defender battle ground. I thought the fitness clearly improved under Ole for periods at a time but then seemed to take a dive drastically at points in any season; it never looked very sustainable and when that was gone there wasn't much else to that United side.
Agreed. Interesting on point 2, and it makes sense. I agreed with Ole that they needed to press more, but he just flat out gave up on it for whatever reason about halfway through.
It's going to take a cultural reset, but you are correct, there are enough willing (I would add Bruno to your list) and the youth will be willing to follow the manager and prove themselves. ETH can do it. And I don't necessarily believe it will take more than a season to right the ship.
Very good point. We were quite fit, even during the restart phase. But player burnout was something clearly present and Ole probably did give priority to this.
You’re misunderstanding work rate and ground covered. There’s plenty of data out there that shows that it is not a stat that translates into wins (Leeds leading the league in ground covered) and very position specific. Also, having a lot of possession tends to skew the numbers down. Man City is mid table in distance covered, but no one would call them lazy.
Funny how one tweet or stat without context can send us off on a hunting expedition.
Regarding team fitness, with the amount of data, training coaches and physios, the days of “run til you drop” are gone. And they should be. If we aren’t fit enough for matches, that is purely an issue with manager, coaching, training and physios. The players have some accountability, but not that much, really. If they aren’t running for the manager, then that’s a dressing room/man management issue, isn’t it?
It would be great if improving fitness solved everything
Well the evidence about us being a long way short of the fittest teams in the league/Europe obviously goes beyond that single tweet. I’ve linked a thread in the OP which has a whole host of data pointing in the same direction.
And yes, if the players aren’t fit enough then that’s an issue with “coaching, training and physios”. Which is precisely the topic I was hoping to discuss. Is this an area that needs to be addressed urgently by the next manager by hiring the best possible people available to put an end to this long-standing issue of other teams being fitter than us? I think it is.
It would be a step in the right direction, that’s for damn sure.
FFS.
We seem obsessed on getting players to bulk up.
It seems the extra muscle coincides with a players downturn
I'm thinking likes of Martial and Lukaku but also the emphasis on bulking up for Rashy and greenwood.
It seems the extra muscle coincides with a players downturn
I'm thinking likes of Martial and Lukaku but also the emphasis on bulking up for Rashy and greenwood.
Too simplistic comment. Ole played counter-attack style, and after his half season in charge, he claimed our players fitness were not good enough even for his style, and yet 2 seasons later, we went downhill for the entire team.
While Mourinho favour sit back, he still demanded lots of energy, and the players that he brought in for Chelsea and MU, demonstrated that.
LVG was not counter-attack style.
Whatever style you played, ability to cover 10KM+ per game is fundamental in modern football, our players lack such ability, or going downhill season by season.
Then, why raised such simple question - who is responsible for fitness, of course the assistant manager(s), who gives instruction plan to the assistant manager(s), of course the Manager.
It was Ole/Carrick/Mckenna that allowed too much pancake and coffee during pre-season, that spent too much time talking about tactics instead of WORKING on tactics; that allow a MU team returning from pre-season like a bunch of schoolboys, and deservingly sacked.
Hey watch the language !
Ole is above doing peasant work like tactics did not you know that. Training and tactics are unimportant and delegated to others. He rather did anything else (be a mascot ??) than the most important thing a manager should do.The players are not partaking in training any more, so theres the start of your problems.
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I think it simply boils down to the players. Forget Ole, if Jose Mourinho cannot whip you into shape, there’s something wrong. Give John Terry’s MNF video on YouTube a watch and you’ll understand why.
The managers must be mostly responsible, but also the fitness coaches also.
Under LVG we played slowly, keeping the ball a lot but the intensity was 1st gear only. Under Mourinho and Ole we played mostly counter attacking football, or when we didn't and had to play against a packed defense, we also played slowly and did not have any intensity nor were we capable to press.
Surely it takes time to adapt the players to be able to run more, but our managers failed to do that. I don't buy the idea that ALL of our players are lazy and can't do it, surely Pogba is lazy and it would take some effort to shape him differently but many other players could do it, if trained properly.
Ole once said, in one of his first press conferences that it was inconceivable for him that an opposing team would out run us. Well he didn't do anything in that regard and we didn't improve at all, whether he changed his view about it or he was incapable of doing that no one knows.
Looking at the best teams, Pool and City, their fitness levels are over the moon, add to that individual quality, chemistry and tactical awareness and that's why we are so far behind.
Under LVG we played slowly, keeping the ball a lot but the intensity was 1st gear only. Under Mourinho and Ole we played mostly counter attacking football, or when we didn't and had to play against a packed defense, we also played slowly and did not have any intensity nor were we capable to press.
Surely it takes time to adapt the players to be able to run more, but our managers failed to do that. I don't buy the idea that ALL of our players are lazy and can't do it, surely Pogba is lazy and it would take some effort to shape him differently but many other players could do it, if trained properly.
Ole once said, in one of his first press conferences that it was inconceivable for him that an opposing team would out run us. Well he didn't do anything in that regard and we didn't improve at all, whether he changed his view about it or he was incapable of doing that no one knows.
Looking at the best teams, Pool and City, their fitness levels are over the moon, add to that individual quality, chemistry and tactical awareness and that's why we are so far behind.
Are they unfit? I doubt it - more like fecking lazy. I’d love to see Fred, McT and Bruno’s stats compared to pogba and Rashford.
He seemed pretty pissed off, especially when he compared the fact that United are only playing in one competition when compared to Liverpool, yet have an abundance of injury/fitness issues. It's not right and needs looking at.
We seem to be out-run, out-fought, and out-thought in every game by every team we seem to come up against. I don't know if there's an arrogance there with our players, that maybe they feel they don't need to work as hard and that everything will come off ok. There seems to be a lazy attitude, or at least that's how it feels during games. Our team always seems very 'stiff' and immobile.