Who's responsible for our (lack of) fitness?

Pogue Mahone

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Stats like these are depressingly familiar. There's a thread about how our players seem much less fit than their peers which was started in 2016 and still going strong this month!

What I'm curious about is where the buck stops? Is this down to managers taking their eye off the ball? Or do they have the wrong people around them?

I know that Madrid fans are attributing a lot of their success this season down to Antonio Pintus. Their players are running further and more resistant to injuries.

As Goal point out, Modric and Benzema have played over 5,000 minutes between them this season, despite their advanced ages (36 and 34). Only Marco Verrati ran more than the two veterans, who ranked 2nd and joint-3rd respectively for distance covered.

Under Pintus, Real Madrid have less than half of the injuries of last season despite being two thirds of their way through the season. The plan was that Real Madrid would arrive at the final part of the season at peak fitness. With the exception of Toni Kroos and a period of injury for Benzema, that seems to be the case.
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Former Real Madrid striker Fernando Morientes had these words for Pintus, in an interview with MARCA: “He’s like an uncle. Nice, kind, but a bit of a bastard. My competitive weight was 83 kilos and Pintus made me go down to 79 kilos in three weeks when I was in Monaco. I have never been as hungry as I was with him.”
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This guy was in charge when Madrid run all those CL trophies under Zidane, before leaving to work with Conte at Inter. He somehow got Lukaku into peak condition while he was there, which is surely the fitness equivalent of winning the Balon D'Or.

So who's been in charge of all of this at United?

Who should they be replaced with?

Who's the next Antonio Pintus!?!
 
Well this is not the answer but still i do think its an unnecessary addition to the cause -

I feel like we have preseason matches more in quanity across the world than we actually need primarily for getting money and sponsorships.

I feel that this really gets us to a low start; especially at the start of the season and can spread to the end aswell.
 
Honestly think it’s a cultural thing at the club. We’re a counterattacking side and have been since Mourinho. The players are in the mindset that they don’t need to be marathon runners, they just need to be quick and powerful.

As a result, they’ve become comfortable with their workload and have kicked up a fuss when they’ve been told they need to work harder and run further.
 
Bebestation said:
Well this is not the answer but still i do think its an unnecessary addition to the cause -

I feel like we have preseason matches more in quanity across the world than we actually need primarily for getting money and sponsorships.

I feel that this really gets us to a low start; especially at the start of the season and can spread to the end aswell.
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Agreed. We haven't had a proper pre season for years. The least two have been a disaster.

Summer 2020 was a farce because of the Europa League being played after the season ended.

Summer 2021 wasn't helped by the Euros.

We should be doing pre season in the UK. Plus after COVID it would be great to give lower League clubs a few games
 
Pexbo said:
Honestly think it’s a cultural thing at the club. We’re a counterattacking side and have been since Mourinho. The players are in the mindset that they don’t need to be marathon runners, they just need to be quick and powerful.

As a result, they’ve become comfortable with their workload and have kicked up a fuss when they’ve been told they need to work harder and run further.
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It's up to coach to condition player. Even if counterattack is our style being fit and quick would still be the aim
 
Pexbo said:
Honestly think it’s a cultural thing at the club. We’re a counterattacking side and have been since Mourinho. The players are in the mindset that they don’t need to be marathon runners, they just need to be quick and powerful.

As a result, they’ve become comfortable with their workload and have kicked up a fuss when they’ve been told they need to work harder and run further.
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I don’t think any footballers actually enjoy working on their fitness. It must be a grind and I’m sure they’re always quite resistant to new training regimes. But that’s presumably the art of elite trainers like this Pintus fella. Getting athletes into peak condition despite themselves.
 
As with all our problems I think its a holistic thing.

1) Not every player can play high intensity pressing whether because they physically can't or mentally don't want to. Pep and klopp have had to shift out players who could not play the way they wanted, so its clear that some players can be coached to do it and others can't

2) Most of this team spent 2 years under Jose not pressing, Shaw, Rashford, Martial, Pogba all spent a couple years not being asked to press. Then Ole came in and despite his big talk either didnt want to or couldn't implement a high press, I lean to the former as he clearly preferred to sit back and have space to counter into. So most of our attack have spent 4/5 years being asked not to press high.

3) Despite what Ralf may want there is no way he will be able to get this team pressing consistently having come in when he came in, he neither has the time nor the players to do it as the majority of this squad either can't do it, don't want to do it or can do it but there isnt time to practice it.

Now regarding ETH, I think if he is able to bring in 3/4 signings and get rid of 5/6 players that don't want to be here he could get us pressing (as could Ralf). He would have 3/4 players who are his signings who hopefully would have the profile for pressing, there are players already here (quality aside) who can press (fred, telles, sancho, mct, varane, lindelof etc basically the players that just get on with their jobs), then there are youngsters ready to break into the team who naturally will follow the manager (hannibal, elanga, laird, garner). So I think we will see a change in those stats next season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I don’t think any footballers actually enjoy working on their fitness. It must be a grind. But that’s presumably the art of elite trainers like this Pintus fella. Getting athletes into peak condition despite themselves.
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Agree but as I said I think it’s a cultural issue. Too much player power basically. I think Mourinho’s methods were to preserve player energy so his core team lasts the season without burning out. Something that is outdated now with new fitness and nutrition methods and part of his problem but that’s another subject. Ole was a major laissez faire manager because that’s how Fergie managed to an extent - he created self governing squads. The problem is that Ole missed the part where you fill it with self motivated winners.

So what we are left with now is a squad that is used to doing things their own way only they’re soft as shit and have plenty of ego and little self drive.
 
Rory 7 said:
I guess what I'm saying is I don't think fitness is the problem. I think they are fit. They are just bone lazy on the evidence of recent times.
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They're fit but like @Pexbo said, they're strong and powerful...but from the outside looking in they lack endurance and resilience, hence the low mileage and frequent injuries. The club likely needs a different approach to conditioning.
 
Pexbo said:
Agree but as I said I think it’s a cultural issue. Too much player power basically. I think Mourinho’s methods were to preserve player energy so his core team lasts the season without burning out. Something that is outdated now with new fitness and nutrition methods and part of his problem but that’s another subject. Ole was a major laissez faire manager because that’s how Fergie managed to an extent - he created self governing squads. The problem is that Ole missed the part where you fill it with self motivated winners.

So what we are left with now is a squad that is used to doing things their own way only they’re soft as shit and have plenty of ego and little self drive.
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Maybe. But your assumption is based around their levels of fitness being dictated entirely by the manager. Which is not what anyone seems to think at Madrid (or at Inter, last season)
 
I felt like were were pretty fit about halfway through Ole's time. We seemed to finish games really strong compared to the opposition.

That's obviously not the case now but it suggests the problem doesn't lie with the coaches lacking any kind of expertise.

I think Ole got too soft, allowed players who weren't up for it to hang around and eventually that's bound to rub off on others.
 
This frustrates me too, football is so stat heavy now that there's no hiding from it. I would have thought this is a standing agenda items during the post-match player meeting to discuss the game. I think the starting point has to be the manager, if for example our no 6 runs less than the opposition no 6, is this referenced and discussed? If not why not? Do we compare those stats with the teams around us? Do we compare with our u23's? With the same game last season? It just seems so bloody obvious!
 
It seems a fair question. Ralf seems to attribute it to having a lack of physical players which seems true; there's Fred who could run all day....i'm actually stuck on thinking of another player that i could name who is built for the press. Bruno- there's another!

That's appalling actually :lol: I've literally spent 2-3 minutes thinking about our squad and can't come up with another name who's workrate is nearly always impressive no matter what.

Pre-season also seems to be a problem. The last time I remember us having a strong start to a league season and looking fit and sharp was probably 17-18.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Maybe. But your assumption is based around their levels of fitness being dictated entirely by the manager. Which is not what anyone seems to think at Madrid (or at Inter, last season)
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I think it’s an impact of the manager rather than dictated by. LVG was a pretty static manager all about risk aversion so had little focus on fitness. Mourinho as I said I think low mileage was an actual tactic of his.

With that, the squads have not been well conditioned for a long time and conditioning has come on leaps and bounds in that time.

Solskjaer clearly let them do whatever they wanted so conditioning was of little interest.

Rangnick sounded like he wanted to when he came in and gave up pretty quick around the time we heard moaning about his methods.

We’ve just never had the sort of modern conditioning/strength/fitness/nutrition setup/culture that the leading clubs now have so it’s never been imposed on the players successfully.

What we need is for ten Hag to have the authority to say “my way or the highway” and to let those who don’t want to play along leave, even if they’re our star players cough Rashford cough.
 
Pexbo said:
I think it’s an impact of the manager rather than dictated by. LVG was a pretty static manager all about risk aversion so had little focus on fitness. Mourinho as I said I think low mileage was an actual tactic of his.

With that, the squads have not been well conditioned for a long time and conditioning has come on leaps and bounds in that time.

Solskjaer clearly let them do whatever they wanted so conditioning was of little interest.

Rangnick sounded like he wanted to when he came in and gave up pretty quick around the time we heard moaning about his methods.

We’ve just never had the sort of modern conditioning/strength/fitness/nutrition setup/culture that the leading clubs now have so it’s never been imposed on the players successfully.

What we need is for ten Hag to have the authority to say “my way or the highway” and to let those who don’t want to play along leave, even if they’re our star players cough Rashford cough.
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Our team was at the top end of these stats under LVG. In fact using LVG and Mourinho as examples makes the answer fairly obvious, we went from the top of the league in distances and sprints to below average under Mourinho in one summer.
 
They are all not good enough. Why did they want Lukaku to bulk up? Why did they want Martial to bulk up? You do not need to bulk up to be physical. Anderson use to play very well for the first 60 mins or so and then he gets subbed. He does not hold back for that 60 mins. SAF knew how to use the players. I have to agree that it is a combination of both the players not making an effort and also the staff not being that good.
 
flameinthesun said:
As with all our problems I think its a holistic thing.

1) Not every player can play high intensity pressing whether because they physically can't or mentally don't want to. Pep and klopp have had to shift out players who could not play the way they wanted, so its clear that some players can be coached to do it and others can't

2) Most of this team spent 2 years under Jose not pressing, Shaw, Rashford, Martial, Pogba all spent a couple years not being asked to press. Then Ole came in and despite his big talk either didnt want to or couldn't implement a high press, I lean to the former as he clearly preferred to sit back and have space to counter into. So most of our attack have spent 4/5 years being asked not to press high.

3) Despite what Ralf may want there is no way he will be able to get this team pressing consistently having come in when he came in, he neither has the time nor the players to do it as the majority of this squad either can't do it, don't want to do it or can do it but there isnt time to practice it.

Now regarding ETH, I think if he is able to bring in 3/4 signings and get rid of 5/6 players that don't want to be here he could get us pressing (as could Ralf). He would have 3/4 players who are his signings who hopefully would have the profile for pressing, there are players already here (quality aside) who can press (fred, telles, sancho, mct, varane, lindelof etc basically the players that just get on with their jobs), then there are youngsters ready to break into the team who naturally will follow the manager (hannibal, elanga, laird, garner). So I think we will see a change in those stats next season.
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Good post.

This team has spent half a decade not really being expected to have a strong workload by the managers. Ole talked about it when he first joined, but the high amount of injuries we got in the first couple of months seemed to scare him off and he never seemed to push for it again (or if he did he couldn't get the players on board). On top of that, most of the players that those managers have bought haven't been particularly suited to having a high workload.

What we need is a significant reset of the team. A new manager with new coaches, a bunch of players let go, a decent amount of new players coming in...if done right it can completely change both the look and the mentality of the team. Then the remaining players who can't or won't step up and continue being quite lazy can be replaced over the next year or two.
 
It’s interesting as to be fair to Ole this was something he identified and sought to address early on from memory (and did so for a while)
 
The players don't give a shit, Ole was a pushover and ended up being too friendly with the players, there was no fear factor with him.
Fitness is something you have to work hard everyday to maintain, as a player you need to be motivated and as a manager you have to set the standards accordingly. No one was being dropped, contracts were being handed out left right and center.
For a long time, there have been no repercussions for being in bad form or not caring or being unfit.
 
We should rig those things you see on Donkeys where the carrot is hanging in front of their face - just out of reach, but replace the carrot with a phone logged into Twitter.

We'd have the fittest squad in Europe.
 
We defo need a new fitness coach. Rumour was he was mates rates too.

I’m sure Howson knew him as at the start of Ole’s reign he kept bragging about their cross country runs and bleep tests (futuristic and all that).
 
It might be too obvious, but maybe there's something wrong with our fitness coaching? I mean, Ole hired the son of Sir Alex's former fitness coach from Sunderland in League 1. I'm not saying it is his fault, he might be a great fitness coach for all I know, but I'm a bit perplexed that the solution to fixing our fitness issues was supposed to be Sunderland's fitness coach?
 
thegregster said:
Agreed. We haven't had a proper pre season for years. The least two have been a disaster.

Summer 2020 was a farce because of the Europa League being played after the season ended.

Summer 2021 wasn't helped by the Euros.

We should be doing pre season in the UK. Plus after COVID it would be great to give lower League clubs a few games
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And your point being?

No other clubs have an issue with being fit.
 
Laurencio said:
It might be too obvious, but maybe there's something wrong with our fitness coaching? I mean, Ole hired the son of Sir Alex's former fitness coach from Sunderland in League 1. I'm not saying it is his fault, he might be a great fitness coach for all I know, but I'm a bit perplexed that the solution to fixing our fitness issues was supposed to be Sunderland's fitness coach?
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That’s my point. When you see other clubs making a big song and dance about hiring a fitness coach with such a great track record - and seeing tangible improvements as a result - it makes you wonder if we’re missing a trick.
 
TheReligion said:
It’s interesting as to be fair to Ole this was something he identified and sought to address early on from memory (and did so for a while)
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He talked about wanting to address it but there was zero evidence of it ever actually being addressed. We were bottom of the workrate tables before he took over and that never seemed to change during his time in charge.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He talked about wanting to address it but there was zero evidence of it ever actually being addressed. We were bottom of the workrate tables before he took over and that never seemed to change during his time in charge.
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i thought we went up the rankings during his first season? Could be wrong
 
We give players too much autonomy on matters like fitness.

Injury rehabilitation often happens away from the club, diets aren't monitored and we've had players follow the guidance of their international coaches over our own; assuming our own guidance even exists.
 
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