That makes little sense seriously.
Who you rate the highest Pep, Klopp or Tuchel?
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That makes little sense seriously.
Why would he need to convince players to ‘buy’ into his pressing when he can just get rid of them and buy top players who do?
And the situation would be different for one at La Liga he would be in a two team league and already have the best players, there wouldn’t need to be any medium term
Planning when he inherits a team that far outperforms every opposition team bar one in wage and transfers....
Also the Klopp who took over Liverpool was a 2 time Bundesliga winner and Cl finalist not some no mark, he already had a bigger reputation than both the Tuchel that went to PSG and the Tuchel that went to Chelsea that counts for a lot when dealing with ‘egos.
At some clubs you have to win and win with a particular style all the time otherwise you get fired
No one cared what Lampard was trying to do the moment results went against him, Tuchel despite all he has won recently, dare not finish 8th like Klopp even finish 5th will likely get him fired. Bayern fired Kovac and Ancelotti who won the league after a few bad results, Madrid City PSG etc will likely do the same. Clubs like this have peculiar needs and not a lot of time is given
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Why is that? There is actually skill involved in managing a Real Madrid dressing room, or otherwise a team with big egos and big expectations. It doesn’t diminish him as a manager, but not taking that kind of challenge on will of course count against him when compared against others, as it seemingly is already.
As if it's even possible for any remotely competent manager to finish 5th-8th with City/Bayern with the squads they had... A manager with the reputation of Klopp, should he now go to a club like United, would certainly not be fired even if he gets like 3rd or 4th in his first year. City's first season was extremely underwhelming and Pep wasn't really in question despite arguably having the best squad in the league even back then already.
Money no object I'd choose Pep every single time.
However on a tighter budget Klopp is better coach pound for pound.
Still not fully sold on Tuchel just yet. Don't think he belongs in that conversation just yet.
However on a tighter budget Klopp is better coach pound for pound.
Still not fully sold on Tuchel just yet. Don't think he belongs in that conversation just yet.
Man Utd finished 6th twice (One by Mourinho a supposed competent manager) in the last 5 seasons. Chelsea finished 10th 6th and 5th in the last decade (Mourinho and Conte). Peps first season was finishing 3rd with City. How was that the best squad in the league? A season later most of the key players couldnt get a respectable club to play for
Because the squads that City/Bayern/PSG/Madrid currently have are not even comparable to those? Even fecking Kovac won the title with a much worse squad than we had when Pep arrived. The first season, only Chelsea's squad was on the same level as City's. Who are those many "key players" you're mentioning? Kolarov and Zabaleta? Or Bravo, who Pep bought himself?
Not sure about City having the best squad but which key players didn't get respectable club?
2016-17 their key players were KdB, Sterling, Silva, Aguero, Otamendi, Stones, Sane, Bravo, Navas, Clichy, Yaya. Players who played 20+ league games. Almost all players stayed at City, players like Navas moved to Sevilla.
They also had players like Kompany, Gundogan who didn't play more because of injury issues.
Pep won league with most of the same 2016-17 players. Ederson, Walker, B.Silva were the players who played big role in 2017-18, rest all were 2016-17 players.
How much did Pep spend in his first season with Barcelona when they won everything? Or are we back to the "he had generational talents (despite the same talents not winning anything for 2 seasons)" argument?
Well Kolarov, Zabaleta, Clichy, Sagna, Nasri and Touré were still amongst the key players when Pep arrived.
Klopp is the only one I’d be confident could do a job at Utd. Don’t believe the other two could cope with the Glazer’s tight pursestrings. Not saying they couldn’t succeed at a club that doesn’t spend money but they’ve done nothing to indicate they could.
Barca played the style Cruyff implemented there and had players signed for that style, and Pep did follow that same Barca/Cruyff style. It is not that he had generational talents, but that he had the right players to play his system (meaning players that could fulfill the roles necessary for that possession based system).
Similar at Bayern, where van Gaal had implemented a similar basic idea. Heynckes adjusted that squad a little to add some steel to it, Pep than changed that squad slightly to become more possession based again (most importantly with Thiago).
At City he had unlimited amounts of money.
But in the end all his squads were filled with players that work great in a possession-centric system.
You can't be serious... how are Kolarov and Sagna "key players"
, even Clichy and Zaba are extremely questionable. Nasri and Touré were explicitly not wanted by Pep (Nasri loaned as soon as Pep arrived, with Yaya we all know the story).A style that had not been seen at Camp Nou for at least 6 years prior to Guardiola's arrival as coach? A style that Rijkaard (his predecessor) did not play? They didn't even know Guardiola would be coach until 2008, what players were signed for that style specifically?
You mean when he put 97 and 99 point premier league seasons back to back together. Won something ridiculous like 36/37 league games in a calendar year.
We also weren’t even a top four side when he took over and barring his first half season have never been out of it since during his tenure despite fielding Kabak Phillips and Williams for almost an entire league campaign. There was a point when our CB partnership was Fabinho/Henderson. He still managed to do the best he could with that situation. At another club you could argue he’d have been given two brand new defenders and a midfielder but he was hamstrung by the owners who clearly had the ESL in mind and wrote the campaign off.
Also as laughable as that 2-2 draw was for fans of rivals he clearly knew what he was doing. Would he do the same at Barca or Bayern? No, probably not because he knows his audience and club. One set of fans lapped it up the others definitely wouldn’t barring United. United fans would have been laughed at similarly but they would have pointed to it as a key moment if klopp had done what he’s done here over there.
He’s also not going to take a job where he can’t communicate with the players in a language he speaks well. That’s half his ability gone. They’re two great managers, they have their deficiencies like everyone else but they’ll go down as all time greats of this era. Your post just smacks of wanting to build up tuchel who is of course a fantastic manager but there’s no semblance of neutrality on klopp there.
Football managers all have different parameters they’re working in and evaluating them requires context to be applied.
Kolarov Sagna Clichy Zabaleta Yaya, Fernando. Almost the entire City backline
Kovac won the title and was fired immediately he lost a few games, that is the type of pressure at Bayern
From the 2015/16 season before Pep joined, Sagna went Benevento, Clichy to Basaksehir, Zabaleta to West Ham, Yaya went to Olympiakos, Fernando went to somewhere in Turkey, Hart to Torino where he went to bench at Burnley, Demichelis to Malaga
Klopp for me
No, he was fired because he lost the whole team, and NOT winning the league for our club, even though our squad was much weaker than after the triple year, was unacceptable. Kovac had not even close to the reputation that Pep has and if it was him managing City in the first season, there is a much bigger chance he'd have been fired simply because his name was not Pep Guardiola, and he had (rightfully) no pedigree to be given more time to sort it out. Plus you get much more leeway as a high reputation manager in your first season, see Poch who went second with PSG last season.
Yaya and Hart were never given a chance under Pep, as for the others, feckin hell
. Fernando: 5 apps, Sagna: 14 apps, Zaba: 11 apps, Hart: 0 apps, Demichelis: sold as Pep arrived (10 apps the season under Pellegrini). Bought Stones for record sum and he flopped, preferred to play Otamendi/Kolarov as CB. Didn't you forget to include all the "key players" from the academy as well as the kitchen staff that also played a significant part for Pep?Pep is without a doubt one of the best managers in the world, but the insane cult and fanboyism for him is unbearable sometimes...
Pep obviously did a great job at Barcelona. Tactically he set them up brilliantly and raised their level after they were being mismanaged by Rijkaard. However, at the same time the 2009 final was not as one sided as is made out to be, we had some very good spells and the shots on goal were similar with neither teams having that many clear cut chances. But I think the gap in quality of the two midfielders was huge. We had Carrick , Giggs and Anderson. Scholes I think had dipped by then (to return later) and Fletcher was suspended. That was up against Xavi Iniesta and Busquets. Not one of our CMs were as food as any if theirs. Plus Messi was like having half an additional midfielder too.
So while Pep did do a great job at Barcelona, moronic stuff like "he owned SAF!!" when we had A) not been at our best that year B) our midfield in hindsight was nowhere near theirs and C) the game wasn't even that one sided, is sensational nonsense (whoever said it).
Also I think a natural changing of the guard is inevitable in any field. SAF was coming to the end of his time at United and while he was still incredible enough to win trophies, it was probably a transition to the likes of Pep, Klopp and Co who would represent a new era of managers.
You said key players in Pep's first season, why are you talking about 2015-16 season.
Would we be willing to wait 4 years for Klopp to put together a team that can win major trophies at United?
Lots of people would be calling for his head, not having the patience he was afforded at Liverpool when he took the reins there because he was the best thing Liverpool had seen in a long time.
There is a reason why Klopp declined Abrahamovic’s overtures when the former left Dortmund.
Lots of people would be calling for his head, not having the patience he was afforded at Liverpool when he took the reins there because he was the best thing Liverpool had seen in a long time.
There is a reason why Klopp declined Abrahamovic’s overtures when the former left Dortmund.
Why would Chelesa approach him when he left Dortmund? Klopp joined Liverpool in October, Chelsea just won the league with Jose in charge.
Liverpool got very lucky with the timing. Klopp finally decided to resign from Dortmund and Liverpool were the only team who had question marks on their manager.
I remember clearly that when he left Dortmund, he didn’t immediately join Liverpool but took a short break. Within that period Abrahamovic was keen on getting him. Not so sure who was in charge at Chelsea that specific time except I check but I know at some point Abrahamovic got tired with Jose’s style.
I’m pretty sure because at the time I was hoping that United would make a move for Klopp so I used to follow the news about him a lot back then. When Liverpool got him I knew it was only a matter of time before they would begin to compete on the big stage.
In fact I recall that initially Liverpool and Klopp did not agree because Klopp wanted to have his own back room staff but they later came into an agreement and the rest is history.
Yeah, Klopp didn't join immediately. He made announcement that he will leave Dortmund after the season. Chelsea won the league that season, so why would they sack Jose when he just won the league. It would be too much 'Roman' for even Roman to sack league winning manager.
Klopp announced quite early that he would leave after the season. Could be that Chelsea approached him before it was clear they would win the league.
Chelsea won the league in Jan only. They smashed teams in the first half of the season and it was just a matter of when not if, when it comes to winning league.
In that case I remembered that season incorrectly. Really does not make much sense for Chelsea to approach Klopp in that time then.
Might still be possible that there were talks about the option to succeed Mourinho a year later. Klopp had announced that he wanted to do a sabbatical after Dortmund, so maybe that was the idea, to get a clear path forward for the club. Managers don't stay long at Chelsea, giving them a new impulse by signing a new manager is normal there.
Chelsea won the league and comfotably.
ManUtd finally looked convincing under Van Gaal at the season end (when Klopp announced resignation).
Liverpool had Rodgers who finished 5th, started season poorly. It was very good timing for Liverpool.
If it was a season later, maybe we would have gone all out to hire Klopp as everyone knew Van Gaal time was done.
I really don't get why people keep making that point: he took over Dortmund when they were broke and happy to have more or less stayed out of relegation troubles and even Liverpool were more or less an ambitious midtable team at the time he took over.
Like do you think it's irrelevant what kind of squad a coach gets to take over and how much money the club has to spend?
Baffles me really, especially coming from United fans. Not comparing Klopp to SAF, long way to go, but it's like asking "would SAF have been given time and could he have succeeded for United today, as it took him 7 years to get them their first league title". You start with a much stronger squad, with much more money to spend. There is a chance that the reign wouldn't have been that impressive, but there is no doubt most, if not all managers won titles easier and earlier the stronger the club is.
Like many others want to understand why Tuchel is in the same group as Pep and Klopp? Both these managers have turned many players into world class talent, name me one player Tuchel has turned it into world class talent. Tuchel is good but apart from Chelsea fans I doubt anyone thinks he's in elite list like Pep or Klopp.
Tuchel reached the last two CL finals and won one. Pep reached one and lost it, Klopp did not reach one. So currently Tuchel is argaubly the most succesful manager in the european cups. Of course he has not yet accumulated the same amount of trophies Klopp and especially Pep got, but it sure gives Tuchel a place in that discussion who is the best manager at the moment.
......that's all? Poch would be in the discussion if CL finals were a thing. Allegri reached (and lost) TWO finals and also won a ton of trophies. Zidane completely dwarfs Tuchel. Unless we are only talking about the best employed manager at the moment.
@Verward
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All managers you mention reached the CL final years ago. And I remember a significant amount of people on the Caf treating Poch like the second coming, so yes at that time he was in the discussion, despite him winning nothing compared to Tuchel.
When discussing who I rate right now the most I will definitely look at recent performances, not so much at what happened years ago.
They were a Steven Gerrard slip away from winning the title before he arrived though.
Yeah that's pretty much what I meant but without explicitly stating it.. it's recency bias. When I look at Tuchel's career, I see that he did pretty well at Dortmund, meh at PSG, and good at Chelsea. But he still needs to win the PL before seriously entering this discussion, that's the one thing he does not have in common with the other two. Longevity is another one, but that comes in time.