We hear it wrong it's philosesophy
Who still has faith in The Philosophy? / LVG Supporters' Thread
- Thread starter Parma Dewol
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
if that's his way of making his point by estimating then it's probably closer to .2% than 20% surely? what happened today is basically van gaal's version of olympiacos (well, if we can even turn the tie around at OT) and surely even some of the most vocal fans of van gaal are (should?) changing their opinion.
Thank you for encapsulating the full extent of what delusion sounds like better than I ever could.
Nah, there are always a good portion that doesn't want to sack a manager but whatever the percentage is the point is that there's a lot more that want him gone but still some that don't want him sacked.
Unless that word has changed its meaning in the last 5 mins, I don't think so. Just because he's going against the popular view does not make him "objective". A bias different from everyone else's bias, is still biased.
My vote in the LVG Out thread is still "Evaluate in the summer". In reality, there is nothing to evaluate. For me, even with the crappy football and weird decisions, if we made top 4 and made it to the FA cup final and maybe the quarters of the CL, I would've been OK with him seeing out his contract. I like a lot of what he is trying to do although he is not succeeding at much.
As it stands, top four is gone. I don't see us going far in the FA cup and the CL campaign was an embarrassment.
Having said all that, you sack him now for what? If Mourinho doesn't want to come in with only 12 games left and only half the squad fit, what do you do? Hire an interim manager? Who? And whoever it is, can they really salvage something now?
giving him guarantee that the outcome of this season won't matter in the long run when it comes to sacking, etc. it would give him more ample amount of time to evaluate our squad in competitive matches in preparation for next season, to see who he might like or want to ship, what additions we might need, before the summer pre season.
He favors one side of the argument but I've not felt that he's biased. I've not read the whole thread but his last two posts have been largely objective which is more than you can say for most posters.
For me it's very simple: as long as the players still have faith in LVG, then the decision to keep him for now is justifiable. The players are on the pitch and if they still believe they can learn from VG and believe there's light at the end of the tunnel, then I'm not going to argue with that. Considering the fact that Rooney has been defending him in the past week, saying the blame should have gone to the players instead of LVG, this is still very much the case. And yes, you could think that Rooney is lieing etc. etc. but I refuse to go along with all the speculation and prefer to stay with the facts.
objective?
basically proclaiming himself "intelligent" for having an unpopular opinion while dismissing others for not doing so.
of course, he'll argue with semantics that he used the word "normally" or whatever, but it's still a flawed, sweeping argument that doesn't come across as objective in the slightest.
That poster must seriously live right up van gaals anus, he is fecking nuts.
Its like a childrens board on here lately
Unless we buy the best player in every position and win every game 4-0 some people will still be whinging. 2008 is not the comparison. 2013-2015 is.
Well, the rest of us arent just going off the last two points in making an assessment.
This is the same poster that said Louis van Gaal was responsible for Spain and Germany's world cup wins (I kid you not)
I get that some people rather enjoy playing devil's advocate, but spare yourself the time and read some of his comments, then come tell us how much objectivity. A nonsensical argument that goes against popular consensus doesnt make it any less nonsensical.
Agreed. Credit has to go to @Dr. Funkenstein as well, while many may not agree with him, he's definitely argued his corner without bowing to the silly insults.
I just want to know one thing though, what on earth are these guys doing at training all week? I know we were in need of a bit of a tune-up post Ferguson and then Moyes, but he seems to have sent this squad 200mph in the opposite direction. We absolutely shit it at any sign of danger and it results in us giving away comical goals and/or bottling fairly simple passages of play that can get us on the front foot.
I completely refuse to believe that this is a team of "one paced trudger's" (as coined in the other thread) and the general level of these individual players as a team is the problem.
There is just something so .. off about all of this and the whiff seems to be coming from Van Gaal's direction. It is pretty mind numbing and I've failed to work it out thus far.
Its like a childrens board on here lately
Unless we buy the best player in every position and win every game 4-0 some people will still be whinging. 2008 is not the comparison. 2013-2015 is.
What a childish post. Yeah, that's what everyone is complaining about: not winning every game 4-0 and not having the bestest players for each position. What a terrible post.
Touché.
Why should I be banned for supporting a manager - the manager of our club. I am a WUM for it?
80% want him gone whilst 20% are not happy but do have some belief in him because you cannot rule/play football like Barcelona & Bayern out of pure luck. We had the best manager in the world & we had one season IMO where we were as good as them(The year Ronaldo became superhuman)
It could be down to pure luck that they were both coached by van gaal & IMO pep hasn't drastically improved Bayern either- it makes me think that what happened at Barca wasn't purely guardiola's influence either just as the current Barca manager has a lot to compliment guardiola about.
The thing I don't get is that, it's one thing if I made this up but it's coming from players & arguably the most influential players in the last decade. They say things like how van gaal is teaching things 10 years on & It then doesn't surprise me to see lingard & co struggling because they themselves are 5-10 years from hitting any sort of prime.
Do I believe you lot or Xavi & Robben?
Ultimately the majority want him out; 80% or so. I will have no option but to sit there & accept it even though I can clearly see us transitioning without the success.
If 80% of the population were intelligent or could think things in different ways -then we would have an abundant of managers to choose from. Not just mourinho.
Unfortunately, the 20%/minority are normally the intelligent ones. If it was the other way around there would be no poverty & everybody would have hot chicks etc.
The 80% is the same reason politics exists & is bombarded with idiots.
You do realize Barcelona and Bayern are historically great clubs who tend to be good and both of them only really became exceptional in 21st century years after van Gaal left? In Barca's case his second spell was a complete disaster and took a while to recover from, in Bayern's case they were lucky enough that Heycknes took over and changed a lot about the way they played.
United are also a historically big club so chances are that despite the sheer incompetence of our board we will be back to around top within 10-15 years so then you will probably still say it's purely because of van Gaal. It's an easy argument for you, any success of United or England in the next 25 years is down to van Gaal and United being one of the richest clubs around is bound to have some success.
But it's difficult to argue when you genuinely believe Spain and Germany also won trophies because of van Gaal. At one point you even claimed that Neuer would not be the player he is without van Gaal who never coached him and fell out of favour with the board for prefering to keep Kraft over signing Neuer.
I think not getting games is far more likely to retard a player's development than getting games out of position. LVG's neglect of Januzaj is not intended to nor is it doing him any good.
You could equally say we are 5th despite Chelsea having their worst season in their entire oil history.
I'd be surprised by that, actually. Mourinho's much more likely to lose patience with developing youth players than under-performing veterans.
The problem with taking player quotes as gospel is that they all spew a fair bit of hyperbole and have their own agendas (nationality, gratitude for past opportunities etc). Is Paul Scholes really the best midfielder of the 90s and 2000s? Probably not, but Xavi said so.
Only if those players continue to develop and stick around for us to reap the benefits. You only need to look to Arsenal to see how much success that kind of thinking has brought them in the past decade.
This term is really starting to grind me a little bit. Shipping out the deadwood in this scenario is the case of builders coming in stripping your house for renovations and it falling down in the middle of the night nearly killing your family and then saying to the contracting company the next day "glad you came in and got rid of the dead wood, I can rebuild my entire house now". It is just a silly term, out of that entire group only Anderson was the real dead wood player (8 or 9 games in 3 seasons I think it was). Everybody else had something to give back in some aspect and considering Van Gaal purposely went into his second season 6 senior players short of the squad cap it is nothing sort of negligence in the squad building and maintaining department.
Sorry to vent on you, but that term is really, really unfair on the majority of the players that left last year and even this year.
The answer to this thread title is trolls posing as our fans, child aged/not of full mental capacity fans, that is all.
Well that's because it takes time for the foundations that he laid to work. That's why. You'll see that if we win things in next 100 years people of Manchester will parade with LVG's photos and banners thanking him for all the hard work he put in.
LVG has sold/released 36 players in two seasons. When you look through the list there are very few you can say should still be here. Some were getting old, some just didnt fit in, but most were never good enough yet were still here draining attention and wages. Thats my definition of deadwood.
He has said since Day 1 he is here to build for the next manager, and that is exactly what he is doing with the squad. Getting rid of the definitely not good enoughs, sending the maybes on loan, testing the youngsters, and leaving space for the next manager to bring in some stars.
I dont think LVG is doing a good job in his second season, but hes not terrible and some of the rubbish spouted on here after every loss is frustrating to endure.
Yes because kids could think of reasons as to why LVG's presence may be felt later when the kids he consistent ly gives chances too (injuries or not), reach to some type of success.
Only a kid would say that LVG had no influence in bringing up the likes of Muller, Alaba, Badstuber & adding players like Robben & Schweinsteiger to the mix. What's worse is then how you can say he has not left any lasting influence on Bayern in the last 5 years
The same with Barcelona, if Guardiola is given so much praise over his integration of messi in to the powerful possession team of Barcelona- it is bloody laughable that you would not give credit to LVG for doing the same by integrating xavi and iniesta for the side.
If it wasn't for him- xavi would have been at united. Do you think a kid would remember that
Hi, do you give any credit to Guardiola for the success of Luis Enrique? Any whatsoever?
If you do- then you will realise your assumption over a 100 year success is as bonkers as moi.
Wait so you're attributing Barcelona's success post 2008 to LVG's presence there in 1997-2000?
LVG Should be doing better & is it harsh for him to be sacked? No.
However, people refuse to see things that are right in front of them - while everybody can feel the impact of a loss or a draw - is no one willing to accept that the majority of the games we play are with kids?
The majority of our squad is u25 to say the least. Then you have games like yesterday when you have Memphis,martial,lingard,McNaughton,Lowe, amongst countless others on the bench & injured - you have to wonder why our fans are comparing this team to that of a team of experienced individuals like RVP,Nani,Rooney,Hernandez,Carrick,bodice,Evra, Evans etc.
Those players are hardly good enough for us now never mind the next manager.
Hi,
Do you see a difference between Guardiola's possible influence on Barcelona when he left them in 2012 and LVG who left them in 1997? (because that's when he probably was laying the foundations, not when he got sacked in 2003) Or is it beyond your enlightened mind and it's just us, the 80% plebs, who can understand it?
Not all but some of the important bits. As I said if it wasn't for van goal- xavi would be here. Likewise his raising up of Xavier & iniesta is similar to how he raised up Muller & alaba.
So, let me ask you - did Guardiola have any influence on Luis Enrique? Or did Heyckness team have any influence on Pep's?
Let's not forget that Pep didn't dig Barcelona out the Earth. As great as he is- he embraced a team featuring Ronaldinho,Eto'o,Puyol,Xavi& iniesta.
So yes, I do think van goal had an influence.
Stop feeding him.
He's just enjoying this now. The notoriety that comes with every ridiculous statement. Some people are just wired differently and get their kicks from strange things.
Yes for Xavi, no for Iniesta. Iniesta played 7 times under Van Gaal. That is as much as Pogba did under Sir Alex.Yes because kids could think of reasons as to why LVG's presence may be felt later when the kids he consistent ly gives chances too (injuries or not), reach to some type of success.
Only a kid would say that LVG had no influence in bringing up the likes of Muller, Alaba, Badstuber & adding players like Robben & Schweinsteiger to the mix. What's worse is then how you can say he has not left any lasting influence on Bayern in the last 5 years
The same with Barcelona, if Guardiola is given so much praise over his integration of messi in to the powerful possession team of Barcelona- it is bloody laughable that you would not give credit to LVG for doing the same by integrating xavi and iniesta for the side.
If it wasn't for him- xavi would have been at united. Do you think a kid would remember that
Van Gaal might be the only manager ever who has got credit for almost relegating a top team. His second spell on Barca is one of the worst spells of a manager in football history. They had to sell 2/3 of the players who played under him that season before Riijkard was able to do some nice things. Guardiola went there 6 years later, and the team was completely different.
LVG did good on his first spell when he won two titles, but on the second spell it was an absolute failure, and there is no way he should get any credit for Pep's team. It would be the same as if we somehow become good in the next 3-4 years, with Januzaj becoming a great player and then claiming that it is all because of Moyes setting the foundation. It is nuts!
Bayern is something else though. He made a good signing, a couple of good promotions and converted Schweiny. However, he was also outside of UCL zone when he was sacked.
Your acting like Guardiola was the first sign of success. What about rijkaard? Was his team a flop? The mix of Ronaldinho & foreign players mixed with the Spanish youngsters (who BTW pay most their blessings to van goal & not rojkaard)?
What we saw at Barcelona was the finished product with the likes of Xavi & iniesta, payola & valdes at their prime. All having help from van goal 10 god damn years ago.
As the rest of the majority are normal average etc etc.
I think you're spot on. The technical ability of this squad is stretched to the point it breaks more often than not, it held for about 65 out of the 90 minutes against Chelsea, but it was the breaking point that decided the match. I guess everybody would be happy if United consistently played 90 minutes like they did for 65 against at Stanford Bridge, because it would be a title winning squad with a title winning style of play. Not because United has the best players because that it doesn't, but because they play together better.
But to do that in that way you don't need brilliant players, you need a lot of players who have the technical ability and the understanding of the game to pass neatly at pace, to counter the pressure with a reliable first touch, awareness and good decision making, and you can beat a squad with better players just by moving the ball around better. It's possible to just pass and move through a defence if the passing is tidy and pacy and the movement is instant, anticipated and structured. If you have the ball you have the initiative, and you can surprise defenders so they'll be too late, just because your teammates know already what you're going to do and the opponent has to wait and see and only then react. If on top of that there is some individual brilliance and this brilliance is serving the team play, it starts beeing fun.
With all the injuries, players in poor form en players declining, the balance has shifted from a squad who has the technical ability to gain a big advantage from this style of possession football, to a squad that has too much technical trouble with moving the ball around at pace and decision making to keep it up under pressure. With Shaw, Schweinsteiger, Rojo, Darmian, a 'normal' Herrera, Rooney in good form, Young fit the technical ability and awareness would be sufficient, and with a good Van Persie and a happy Di Maria who uses his head a little it could have been a beautiful machine with some special cogs. But in depth there's just not enough reliable technique and awareness. Also there's just not enough fight in the squad, the dressing room is still too flat, I've been very critical of Rooney, but the games he was benched or injured showed why he's captain and why they need him, and it's not for his footballing brilliance.
I don't think the squad is that far off, two signings, a few players fit again, and the balance shifts towards a squad gaining an advantage from possession football. Possesson football requires certain abilities that are not only usefull for a style that aims to have 75% possession. The foundations of neat passing, well organized and timed movement, keeping the lines close, making triangles are also needed for a Dortmund or Atletico style. So the basic foundation can be used to switch to a more direct approach. These styles also require to add a bit of head to the instincts. LvG's counter attacking side at the WC was also build on the foundation of players knowing how to boss the possession in 4-3-3, his AZ side won the title with a much more defensive side than what he came very close with two years before. His Dutch side could change the style in only 5 weeks, because the foundation was good. So it would be a shame to throw the foundations out and start all over, a more direct approach can be based on the work that has been done.
It's also needed, because United's troubles in Europe didn't come with Van Gaal, but were already there. United has been looking very vulnerable to any side that played a well organized passing and moving game for years, either counter attacking or with lots of possession. Mydtylland isn't a very big name, but the Ajax side that beat United at OT was from the same level. Basel is another example, but the difficulty with handling that kind of game is going much further back. So a change in approach was needed, aiming for lots of possession or a more direct game. That LvG hasn't been the solution doesn't make him the problem.
LVG is ridiculous ly crap at meeting current expectations but in no way was Xavi & iniesta ever rated as having the potential they reached now. Never mind puyol & Valdez.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/louis-van-...avi-iniesta-perfect-manchester-united-1449306
Read the first line - from Valdez himself.
It doesn't matter where you draw the line, he's over it anyway. It hasn't worked, it's a disappointment, it's a crisis. The question is what's the sensible answer to the crisis, sacking the manager can be part of that but as a statement about the unacceptability of the results it's not solving the crisis.
You say he wasn't asked to build a world class squad, but expectations have been very high. Everybody here will acknowledge how great Ferguson was, but when he retires after 26 years, the fans expect that it makes no difference at all or even that the results and entertainment will get better. You have a squad that came in 7th, two CB's are out because of old age, the best player declined to the point of selling, the second best player is in comparable decline, creative midfielders were around forty and retired, while the competition has been splashing money to slowly build world class squads for years. And then if one year later United is on top of the league, the fans complain about not beeing entertained enough. That is high expectation, only justified by assuming the manager can compensate for having fallen behind. I expected that too, he was hired to achieve a product greater than the sum of its parts, because the parts weren't that great and in the process of upgrading one by one, and he has proven that he can do that. It was a massive job, and the boredom was the symptom of a more serious issue (that actually was adressed behind the scenes), but a bit more patience, forgiveness, support and optimism around october and november would have showed the fans realized the situation the club is in.
If you've lost your house and you get the chance to build a new one, you're going to build a copy of the old one that didn't suffice anymore, or you're taking the opportunity to build a better one? And if you sack the builder because it still isn't finished in 20 months, are you going to hire a builder that starts all over again, or one that will finish it with his own ideas and tweaks added to it?
I agree with the dangers of falling behind too much, but that's why it's important to sack the manager for better reasons than to make a statement about the unacceptability of the results, to give the fans a sense of relief, and to entertain them with a false sense of succes beeing guaranteed by the new manager and/or to go back to the good old ways that had already stopped working well under 'the greatest manager of all time'.
He played some players who went to become all time greats. Give him a medal!
He had feck all influence and is wank. WANK WANK WANK. How you can defend that dross LvG atm is beyond me.
If it keeps happening, don't you think maybe LVG is then lacking somewhat, and needs other managers to get the best out of the promising squads he previously worked with? just a thought. You give the impression that Van Gaal is the worlds best concert hype man. You mentioned these players have been philosophised to the benefit of their future manager (Januzaj, Shaw, Perreira, Memphis, Martial, CBJ. So Januzaj has been trained for barely a season under van gaal and is worse off, Shaw has been trained with him for 1 season and is injured after briefly getting back his previous Southampton form hence his 30 million cost. Pereira has been given no game time to develop, Memphis is worse (although he is adjusting to a new league), Martial is Martial, CBJ has only just come up from the youths. I don't see how they have been philosophised in a positive way. Most logical attibute to United future success is the players adopting the ideas and philosophies of the new coach rather than Van Gaal's debilitating nonsense. This is akin to gifting Van Gaal credit for Spain and Germany's world cup wins.
Fantastic last 2 paragraphs.