Who replaces Ten Hag?

[YikesSchmeics]

This whole “United way” stuff is a steaming pile of shite and the sooner it disappears the better.

I agree, I think it is limiting us 100%. It's feeds into the utter nonsense of winning the "right" way or being "brave" because you go out and play in a way that you know will get you a hammering but you do it "because that what big clubs do innit" - but it is also there and a Simeone led United team wouldn't have kicked a ball and the criticisms and groans about style of play would already be unbearably loud.

The flip of this is LVG played aggressive until Leicester put 5 past us then proceeded to bore the arse off us all for 2 years playing tumescent conservative football with no goals to show for it so maybe they have a point!

 

[soapythecat]

Sack the clown - just get him away from the club. Give Fletch the role until the end of the season and inform the players that performances like this won’t be tolerated. I don’t see any metric on how it could be worse. I’d rather loose and play well than persisting with getting absolutely battered every pissing game.

 

[stefan92]

On top of that his tactics is compatible to our style (a 4-2-3-1) and differently to a system manager he can switch things around

You contradict yourself here. When McKenna is married to a 4-2-3-1 formation, he pretty much is the definition of a "single system manager". I don't know if that's true, but he either is a 4-2-3-1 manager, or not a system manager. You have to pick one.

I have followed football for 40 years now. I followed well run clubs and I saw some horribly run ones as well. However I never witnessed United's situation

Just look at Schalke 04.

All kidding aside I do agree on your assessment that United's situation is unique among the true elite clubs. But still some clubs in crisis are in a similar situation sometimes, Bayern during Nagelsmann's time certainly was (and is still fixing their structure, by now they have a new CEO, Chief Sports Officer and DoF and they will have a new manager next season). So I argue Nagelsmann is as experienced in a similar situation as you can find on the market for top managers. Because simply nobody has it that bad you won't find anyone who has experience with the current United situation. Except those who already have been there. So in that regard I also understand why you like McKenna.

Why is everyone so concerned with fecking charisma all of a sudden? You want him to dance around and put on a show or have a rant to the media after the game? What difference does it make? He needs to be tactically adept and a good man motivator, feck charisma.

It's hard to find someone who lacks charisma and is a good man motivator despite that.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Why is everyone so concerned with fecking charisma all of a sudden? You want him to dance around and put on a show or have a rant to the media after the game? What difference does it make? He needs to be tactically adept and a good man motivator, feck charisma.

Very important. It’s vital towards motivating the players.

 

[McGrathsipan]

I feel the Southgate rumour is exactly what Sir Jim MGBGA Ratcliffe would do.

 

[Robbie Boy]

He plays gallingly awful football so would lose on the "United way" from the get go. Not saying that is right or wrong, but it is true that a lot of fans wouldn't accept his uber defensive approach.

I wouldn't want Simone. But on a broader point; we've played absolute dog shit football since Fergie retired. At least Simeone would play dog shit football but probably be relatively successful with it.

 

[Plant0x84]

It's hard to find someone who lacks charisma and is a good man motivator despite that.

Very important. It’s vital towards motivating the players.

See for me that plays negatively into player power. They don’t have to like the guy, they have to do as he instructs he is their boss. If they don’t do as he asks he changes them for someone who will do as instructed. It’s that simple.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Why is everyone so concerned with fecking charisma all of a sudden? You want him to dance around and put on a show or have a rant to the media after the game? What difference does it make? He needs to be tactically adept and a good man motivator, feck charisma.

Having charisma plays a major part in being able to motivate a group of people. Most successful managers in the PL have a charismatic personality.

 

[Plant0x84]

Having charisma plays a major part in being able to motivate a group of people.

They play for Manchester United. They should already be motivated enough. If they aren’t then ship them out.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

See for me that plays negatively into player power. They don’t have to like the guy, they have to do as he instructs he is their boss. If they don’t do as he asks he changes them for someone who will do as instructed. It’s that simple.

If they’re in a tough game, backs to the wall and need a push.. then Ten Hag walks in and talks like he does in his press conferences, that’s not going to do anything is it.

You won’t be able to name me one manager who has been extremely successful who doesn’t have charisma

 

[RORY65]

See for me that plays negatively into player power. They don’t have to like the guy, they have to do as he instructs he is their boss. If they don’t do as he asks he changes them for someone who will do as instructed. It’s that simple.

Players are more likely to buy in if they believe in the message though, that's human nature rather than being a specific issue with the current United squad. Klopp and Ferguson are/were better managers with better ideas than Rodgers and Moyes but their charisma also plays a part in making the players believe in it, the way we collapse when things go wrong shows that the players deep down know that they're not good enough and also don't fully believe in what they're being instructed to do.

A team that knows that they're good and believes in what they're doing can get back to their process and trust that it will work in the end, part of that is the manager being able to get the players to believe and it's not a surprise that someone as devoid of charm or charisma as Ten Hag has struggled in that respect.

 

[Plant0x84]

the way we collapse when things go wrong shows that the players deep down know that they're not good enough and also don't fully believe in what they're being instructed to do.

That’s on the players. I don’t think you need to be charismatic to be a good leader, or get your message across. There are certain personality traits that will help you take people with you but I don’t think charisma is vital.
You’d probably say Troy Deeney or Joey Barton are charismatic characters but they have largely been a disaster in management. Too much ‘charisma’ can also be detrimental. When Jose was doing his look at me act to deflect attention from poor results it just piled on the negativity. You can just end up looking a clown.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

They play for Manchester United. They should already be motivated enough. If they aren’t then ship them out.

Although that may be true somewhat it’s still not enough on its own. You need a manager that can get 100% out of them on a daily basis and to do that they need to be charismatic for the players to buy in and have full loyalty to the manager. Sir Alex, Mourinho, Pep, Klopp etc. all have charisma in abundance to go along with the tactical side in the game which is what made them so successful.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Is Tuchel a definite no?

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Is Tuchel a definite no?

Give me Tuchel any day over the likes of Southgate and Potter.

 

[Carl]

Tuchel is choosing to play Eric Dier. It's a definite no from me.

 

[Orange Tree]

My preference
1. Nagelsmann, done well in Germany, has won something and his contract is up after Euro, no need to pay release fee.
2. De Zerbi, his team plays entertaining football and has PL experience. Less period of transition.
3. McKenna, already know the club well. With the new structure, he can focus on coaching which he has proven in his two seasons with Ipswich.

The dark horse
Thiago Motta, a very promising manager that implements modern playing style.

 

[NewGlory]

While I'd prefer for those players to be sold, or at least phased out, it's disingenuous to claim that we can't function as a football team with any of them playing. The absence of structure is at fault there and the manager should be held accountable for that.

Likewise, there's no disincentive not to play well because all of the players have carte blanche to perform as they like under this manager without any repercussions. A proper manager instills standards which means players don't do that, and if they do, they're out of the team.

Did you even notice that Rashford was out of the team, yesterday? He was benched. And this is far from the first time. Didn't do jack shit. Manager cannot make you care. Only next step is to sell him, but he cannot be sold so wtf is Erik supposed to do with that?

I am amazed who Erik-Outers think will possibly be more successful with this joke of a squad

 

[devilish]

You contradict yourself here. When McKenna is married to a 4-2-3-1 formation, he pretty much is the definition of a "single system manager". I don't know if that's true, but he either is a 4-2-3-1 manager, or not a system manager. You have to pick one.

Mckenna prefers the 4-2-3-1 system but he had also used the 3-4-2-1 formation and the 3-4-1-2 formation. His tactics are surprisingly flexible thus he can switch from one formation to another during the game with ease.

 

[stefan92]

Mckenna prefers the 4-2-3-1 system but he had also used the 3-4-2-1 formation and the 3-4-1-2 formation. His tactics are surprisingly flexible thus he can switch from one formation to another during the game with ease.

Thanks, that makes sense. Didn't appear that way in the post I quoted and that made me wonder.

 

[Shinjch]

Lot's of questions... I try my best to answer them, but keep in mind, I always followed him out of general interest, not because I closely followed his clubs, so I might miss some stuff or see things different than for example Bayern fans.

Media: Let's say, they always get an answer. Even for questions that are not directly football related, and for example his "interesting" dressing style always stirred some yellow press interest. That might sometimes even have been too much, on the other hand does it take media attention and pressure away from the players which I generally see as a positive. More critical probably is how close he is to certain media. His girlfriend works for BILD, not everybody at Bayern liked that afaik, because of course this is a setup that is a risk for leaking internal information. But in general I say he doesn't have problems with the media, he just sometimes doesn't know when he should shut up, the little know-it-all

Playing style: He values a high energy style, but incorporates a reasonable amount of possession play. I think a bit like current Klopp is a good comparison. But to a certain degree he is willing and able to adjust the team formation and philosophy. For example while clearly valuing aggressively moving midfielders in general, he decided to drop Goretzka/Kimmich from the German midfield (Goretzka is completely out, Kimmich shifted to RB), who would probably be his dream midfield duo when in form, because they simply are out of form. Now he builds the team around Kroos and about how Kroos does orchestrate matches. Which is a much different style, but can be just as good.

Pressure situations: In general I think pretty well. Remember, he lead Hoffenheim to surviving a relegation battle when nobody expected that to be possible, that was his first Bundesliga job. Sometimes he might talk too much about certain things (see above), but it rarely feels like he lacked answer when under pressure. Especially what happened at Bayern after him (and in the national team with him and how he is dealing with the current Bayern players there) points towards him not being backed properly to make tough calls instead of not knowing the right answers.

Really appreciate the insight on him, thanks. From the outside looking in, how do you think he would handle the mess at United currently?

 

[devilish]

Thanks, that makes sense. Didn't appear that way in the post I quoted and that made me wonder.

No problem

 

[stefan92]

Really appreciate the insight on him, thanks. From the outside looking in, how do you think he would handle the mess at United currently?

Lots of possibilities... in general I think he would ensure the players staying closer together on the pitch, although I am not sure how exactly he would do that. But this "no midfield" setup would very quickly end. Maybe he wouldn't even change some of the most criticised things immediately. Like he used a 3-2-4-1 formation at times, in which you could potentially field all four of Casemiro, Mainoo, Bruno and Mount. Double 6 or Double 10? Why not both!

 

[blue blue]

With your penchant for ex Chelsea managers I reckon you'll go for Touchel.

 

[FortunaUtd]

Current United is a very horrible place to get your on the job learning. The spot light is constantly on the manager, there isn't 1 department that is functioning correctly and this squad is a rare combination of laziness, lack of talent, lack of athletism and treachery. Its basically the exact opposite of the treble side. Then one has to consider the EPL who is a proper meat grinder in terms of physicality, high tempo and games that are played as if its a constant cup final. This is not the Bundesliga were there's Bayern and, well, not really much else. Every game is taxing, competitive, cynical and tough.

Not to forget that Nagelsmann will have to join the club late, possibly in July. He'll have little time to adapt to the country and the squad. We need someone who accepts the role of HC, who knows the country, who knows the EPL, who knows United, which player he can really rely on and which ones are most likely to backstab him. That guy is Mckenna

So that's why McKenna is a "no brainer"?

 

[CM]

Did you even notice that Rashford was out of the team, yesterday? He was benched. And this is far from the first time. Didn't do jack shit. Manager cannot make you care. Only next step is to sell him, but he cannot be sold so wtf is Erik supposed to do with that?

I am amazed who Erik-Outers think will possibly be more successful with this joke of a squad

With what consequence? Everyone knows he'll be starting the next game and the manager even said as much. And that's one player.

We played better football with more consistency under Ole. Improvement on this is easily achievable with a half decent coach.

This belief that we have to give a manager 3 or 4 years to prove they're not good enough is completely misguided and backwards. Ten Hag has already proven he can't do the job over the last year. Sticking with him achieves nothing more than letting the rot set in.

 

[Shinjch]

Lots of possibilities... in general I think he would ensure the players staying closer together on the pitch, although I am not sure how exactly he would do that. But this "no midfield" setup would very quickly end. Maybe he wouldn't even change some of the most criticised things immediately. Like he used a 3-2-4-1 formation at times, in which you could potentially field all four of Casemiro, Mainoo, Bruno and Mount. Double 6 or Double 10? Why not both!

A three at the back formation would require having fit defenders available, our lot can't be relied upon.

Anyway, really appreciate the write up you gave as I know very little of how he works or likes his teams to look. He seems to be the favoured option amongst the online supporter base at the moment.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

Ratcliffe has said that the likes of Berrada, Ashworth and Wilcox will decide our club DNA (or whatever you want to call it) and every strategic decision will flow from there. For me, this makes sense as long as we're not wedded to something too specific tactically that might be outdated in a few years. I feel that Klopp, Guardiola and Arteta thrive because they have clear philosophies but there's a pragmatism and physicality to their styles that suits the Prem. It's reductive to call Pep a possession manager and Klopp a rock and roll, direct, high press team. Liverpool set the PL record for possession last night, did they not?

For me, the big thing I want to see in a new manager/head coach is a clear plan A but with the tactical versatility to adapt to other things. Ten Hag is admirable in being wedded, this season at least, to a style that he feels will pay dividends in the future. I do feel we would improve if we stuck with him and let the 'process' mature. However, the big question is whether the full fruition of Ten Hag's plan and the man himself are worth the struggle and patience. I would say that there's several things that have become more apparent this season that make the answer a resounding 'no'. He lacks gravitas (which, shallow or not, makes a difference when leading 25 young rich men), is a poor judge of a player, has poor in-game management and squad rotation and lacks the genius of the really elite managers. For me, if we commit to seeing out his philosophy, we carve out a niche style that won't consistently work or give us the edge over the top teams. I also feel that, while he's a good man, Ten Hag's integrity has been questionable in some ways he's handled the media and the squad this season (in contrast to last season where he seemed principled and honest but also more emotionally in touch... this season he can't seem to read any room!).

For me, United managers need the following -

1) More attacking orientated than defensive (bye bye Simeone, Mourinho return etc.)
2) Able to command respect off a group of young lads and the media (bye bye Potter)
3) Willing to blood young players
4) To have a clear style but also be tactically versatile and 'modern'
5) Wants to be at United and respects the history and indeed potential (bye bye Zidane?)

3 at the back could work, so a manager like Amorim and Alonso (in future) is feasible. We're going to need to buy a lot of centre backs though. I'd prefer someone who defaults to a back 4 and wingers. Amorim is too much of an unknown at a £10m release clause and seems pretty set on 3421.

Given all this, Motta and Nagelsmann appear the best options to me. I don't know if Motta speaks English and it would concern me if he didn't. Nagelsmann not being available for the start of pre-season would concern me too. I like McKenna but can he command the respect of the squad? I just don't know. Nagelsmann isn't especially charismatic in how he talks but is tall, striking looking and has international pedigree. McKenna needs to be more established, in my view. Also being here before as assistant would make it hard for him to shed that image. I personally haven't warmed to De Zerbi, Lopetegui, Frank, Xavi or Tuchel and just don't see them as good fits. Flick and Emery are decent but I'm not that keen for whatever reason.

 

[stefan92]

A three at the back formation would require having fit defenders available, our lot can't be relied upon.

Such a 3241 would also require Mount and Casemiro to stay fit which also can't be relied upon this season. That was simply a quick thought about what has he already done that could be applied right now. All I can say for sure that he has already proven that he can and will take drastic measures when he walks into a dysfunctional setup (Hoffenheim and Germany) and likely quickly would take (or at least try to take) some quick measures at United as well if he walked in there.

 

[Pscholes18]

You would know a lot more about Nagelsmann than most here I am sure. How is his media handling? Does he have different ways of playing, or is he married to certain style? Also interested in how he handled the pressure situations when at Bayern?

Would you consider him to be a top coach now, or someone who is still potential that can reach that level?

There was a tactics video posted earlier on this thread on Nags. He has a a couple of formations he plays but will change when he needs to during the match, sometimes even during transition when the other side gets the ball. He's been successful everywhere he's gone and most think he was fecked over with Bayern, as he couldn't play like he wanted to.

 

[Shinjch]

There was a tactics video posted earlier on this thread on Nags. He has a a couple of formations he plays but will change when he needs to during the match, sometimes even during transition when the other side gets the ball. He's been successful everywhere he's gone and most think he was fecked over with Bayern, as he couldn't play like he wanted to.

I've become so wary of so many of the tactics videos and the likes of managers, as those tactics may work well for that set of players but don't guarantee that they will be transferrable. Especially doesn't guarantee it at United with our shower of a squad. There would have been plenty of those videos made about Ten Hag before he came to the club too. Prefer to get the insight of someone who follows the league he has featured in and who doesn't support one of the clubs he has managed, so found the input from @stefan92 helpful. With how our club is, he will likely come up against plenty of friction here too should he arrive.

 

[Luffy]

I think Sir Jim replaces him with someone else.

 

[Hanky panky]

They play for Manchester United. They should already be motivated enough. If they aren’t then ship them out.

Sometimes i feel this is the problem. They play in a giant club and expect to win trophies. And when they realize early season we are not challenging, some players lose their motivation and give up. There is huge attitude problems currently. Rashford is a great example. He doesn´t even try anymore.

 

[SteveCoppellFan]

He's been successful everywhere he's gone and most think he was fecked over with Bayern, as he couldn't play like he wanted to.

Does ETH have the same problem here ?

 

[devilish]

So that's why McKenna is a "no brainer"?

He might not be the most experienced manager around but that's not important. Taking United's circumstances into account no one is experienced to that. However Mckenna has a niche level of experience that very few have. He had worked into United's academy which is the only thing that functions at the club. He also worked under Mou and Ole's admin so he knows the players, the staff and everything that goes around United inside out. That means that there won't be any more second chances, any 'turning the new leaf' or any 'benefit of the doubt' BS around the man

 

[stefan92]

Does ETH have the same problem here ?

No. He could get rid of Ronaldo and Sancho

 

[FortunaUtd]

He might not be the most experienced manager around but that's not important. Taking United's circumstances into account no one is experienced to that. However Mckenna has a niche level of experience that very few have. He had worked into United's academy which is the only thing that functions at the club. He also worked under Mou and Ole's admin so he knows the players, the staff and everything that goes around United inside out. That means that there won't be any more second chances, any 'turning the new leaf' or any 'benefit of the doubt' BS around the man

Explain to me how a young manager without a big name, who has worked with some of our players before even at academy level, is less likely to give them any more chances than some experienced big name coming in from outside? That is fan fiction logic.

 

[GledTheRed]

I'd take Gary O'Neil over the current mug.

 

[Karlos PFC]

Left-field option, Vincenzo Italiano?

 

[Plant0x84]

Sometimes i feel this is the problem. They play in a giant club and expect to win trophies. And when they realise early season we are not challenging, some players lose their motivation and give up. There is huge attitude problems currently. Rashford is a great example. He doesn´t even try anymore.

And this for many is somehow a reason to sack the manager.
This is also the reason why I’d like to see Erik given next season with a competent set up supporting him. In theory we will have a competent director of football and technical director who can work with Erik to define our style of play, identify players to buy and sell, we will have a CEO and his team who can do competent deals and buy and sell well and we have Sir Dave who can work with coaching and fitness setups to maximise fitness and minimise injuries. We should be able to see the best of ETH under these conditions and if it’s no better then the die is cast and he is replaced.
Nobody can argue this season hasn’t been a huge disappointment, but with all the change at the club replacing the coaching team too could be one step too far ala Moyes. I also don’t feel any of the options are actually better than Erik either.