Who is the greatest Dutch player of all time?

BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Glad van Hanegem mentioned.

Add Faas Wilkes to the honourables list?

Amazed at how few people mentioned Krol. Thought you'd have him higher than 10th.

No Piet Keizer?

(Interesting piece on him)
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It's so hard to put him ahead of all of those fancy attackers and midfielders :(

Wilkes surely should go into the HM list, Keizer... probably. Lovely player with flawless technique, but his lack of international appearances (since he had lost his place to Rensenbrink) really hurt his overall stature.You know what? Yeah, he surely gets in even if it's just for his part in Ajax's unreal domination.
 
harms said:
It's so hard to put him ahead of all of those fancy attackers and midfielders :(

Wilkes surely should go into the HM list, Keizer... probably. Lovely player with flawless technique, but his lack of international appearances (since he had lost his place to Rensenbrink) really hurt his overall stature.You know what? Yeah, he surely gets in even if it's just for his part in Ajax's unreal domination.
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I think being world class in more than one position puts Krol up a couple of places for me, though it gets very tough the higher you go.

Keizer's odd. To quit at 31 in a sulk??

Couple pressing for HM list... Wim Suurbier and Sjaak Swart.

You could make two very good Dutch XIs?
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
I think being world class in more than one position puts Krol up a couple of places for me, though it gets very tough the higher you go.

Keizer's odd. To quit at 31 in a sulk??

Couple pressing for HM list... Wim Suurbier and Sjaak Swart.

You could make two very good Dutch XIs?
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I'm not the biggest fan of either to be honest. As for the second one — the defense looks a bit shaky, but other than that it's not bad at all!

van Beveren
Suurbier - van Dijk - de Boer - Gio
Haan
Seedorf - van Hanegem
Robben - Bergkamp - Keizer


van Basten
Rensenbrink - Cruyff - Gullit
Davids - Neeskens
Rijkaard
Krol - Koeman - Stam
van der Sar​
 
harms said:
I'm not the biggest fan of either to be honest. As for the second one — the defense looks a bit shaky, but other than that it's not bad at all!

van Beveren
Suurbier - van Dijk - de Boer - Gio
Haan
Seedorf - van Hanegem
Robben - Bergkamp - Keizer


van Basten
Rensenbrink - Cruyff - Gullit
Davids - Neeskens
Rijkaard
Krol - Koeman - Stam
van der Sar​
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Think Neeskens played RB occasionally and Rijkaard could drop if needed, though wouldn't give a natural RB. Or could drop Stam for Suurbier (harsh as I rate Stam) and play Rijkaard as CH for a proper back 4.

I may be in the minority but while MVB is a shoe in for first XI forward, I'd have RVN over Bergkamp any day. When it comes to centre forwards, I'm just interested in goals ... a Law, a Rush, a Greaves, a RVN.

We need to do this thread on Brazil. Be some interesting chats there??
 
horsechoker said:
A lot of names to choose from, the first being Cruyff, before my time but he helped shape football first as a player and then even more as a manager where his legacy still lives on.

Others names that can be considered: Marco Van Basten, Dennis Bergkamp, Ruud Van Nistelrooy, Clarence Seedorf, Dirk Kuyt, Arjen Robben, Ruud Gullit, Ronald Koeman

and probably some I forgot.

So who for you is the best?
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Imo, the question should be, "Does any other Dutch player come anywhere near Cruyff?".

Far and away the best Dutch player, it's not even close. Probably the best European player of modern times.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
This shouldn't even be a thread. The answer is Cruyff.

I think the answer to the greatest for Holland is the easiest to answer in regards to all the big nations.

Brazil you could debate half a dozen players, same with Spain, Germany, England and Italy. France 2 or 3 players could be argued. Argentina 2 could be argued. For Holland it is Cruyff hands down no arguments.
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Yes it should for the simple fact that it has people discussing all these brilliant Dutch players, Cruyff’s unanimous vote notwithstanding. I love threads like this.
 
Invictus said:
Cruyff is quite a bit ahead of the chasing pack, for his pedigree as a player and the magisterial influence he had on Dutch football — similar situation to Brazil or Germany, where Pelé and Beckenbauer were, are, and probably always will be the benchmarks and ahead of the pretenders to their throne (i.e. Ronaldo, Zico, Müller, Garrincha, Matthäus and so forth). If I had to rank the rest...
  1. Marco van Basten
  2. Frank Rijkaard > Ruud Gullit
  3. Johan Neeskens > Ruud Krol
  4. Dennis Bergkamp
  5. Arjen Robben > Rob Rensenbrink
Honorable mention: Willem van Hanegem, if only to make sure that Feyenoord supporting passersby don't feel left out. :)

All-Time XI...

van Basten
Keizer — Cruyff — Gullit
Davids — Neeskens
Rijkaard
Krol — Koeman — Stam
van der Sar​
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I’d actually love a thread of national team all-time 11s. From the obvious (Brazil, England, France, etc.) to the less so, yet still compelling (Hungary, former Yugoslavia, Poland, etc.)
 
pablo__p said:
How many CLs / Premier Leagues did your Cruyffs and Gullits win, though?


Raimond, though :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
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Cruyff won 3 CL and 10 league titles.
 
alexthelion said:
Imo, the question should be, "Does any other Dutch player come anywhere near Cruyff?".

Far and away the best Dutch player, it's not even close. Probably the best European player of modern times.
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This talk of it not being close is underrating Van Basten to the extreme. I'm genuinely shocked by this thread.
 
Joke question because of the outrightness of the obvious choice but I'll bite and say my favourite was Koeman. Picked out brilliant passes at pace obviating the need for a midfield.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
I may be in the minority but while MVB is a shoe in for first XI forward, I'd have RVN over Bergkamp any day. When it comes to centre forwards, I'm just interested in goals ... a Law, a Rush, a Greaves, a RVN.
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I put van Nistelrooy in originally, but then swapped him with Bergkamp — he had played in a three at Ajax with great success and Robben's runs should be a great match for Bergkamp's through-balls.

BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Think Neeskens played RB occasionally and Rijkaard could drop if needed, though wouldn't give a natural RB. Or could drop Stam for Suurbier (harsh as I rate Stam) and play Rijkaard as CH for a proper back 4.
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It's Netherlands, why do you need a proper back 4 when you can do Cruyff's/van Gaal's diamond? :) Especially since Neeskens and Davids are both going to cover for their fullbacks/side backs.
 
RooneyLegend said:
This talk of it not being close is underrating Van Basten to the extreme. I'm genuinely shocked by this thread.
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Is it really that shocking, though? I mean, van Basten is definitely up there with Müller as the best European striker, like a one man attack in Serie A and a perfect amalgamation of physique, technique, intelligence and tactical thoroughness — maybe even the best depending on what characteristics one prioritizes, as well as one of the dozen or so greatest footballers irrespective of position. Not many would contest his indubitable historic standing.

But like the aforementioned Müller with Beckenbauer, he faces an insurmountable barrier in Cruyff: who boasted intangibles like being the first global star from the Netherlands, a revolutionary in their international forays with Ajax and the national team, the one who ended the dominance of Catenaccio in the highest levels European club competitions, the one who embodied the essence and application of totaalvoetbal and spearheaded a truly remarkable approach, a role model for several generations of players, and one of the foundational pieces of what would become of Dutch football with Michels, Reynolds in the era preceding him, et cetera...on top of being an absolutely wonderful, mesmerizing yet lethal footballer...the first to win back-to-back-to-back Ballon D'Or titles, which adds layers to his “greatness” and what he represented as an esoteric symbol.

The onus is always on the challenger(s) to conclusively displace the reigning champion, and van Basten didn't quite do that with Cruyff (unlike say Cristiano with Eusébio). No shame in that as with Cruyff we're talking about one of the handful of greatest players to grace the sport...one who goes in or around the godlike echelon, and at any rate, van Basten is not that far as he finds himself in the following tier — not languishing faaar below.

If anything, Krol is the one who is being a bit underrated in this particular discussion. Greatest Dutch defender and one of the greatest European defenders ever in my opinion...fantastic leftback and an astute sweeper — one of the few who were world class in two distinct roles, and idolized by the likes of Baresi no less:

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But a lot of participating posters are quite young...and are more familiar with Koeman, de Boer, Stam, Blind Sr. and the likes from the late '80s and '90s, so his omission is understandable. :)
 
I never really thought that highly of Robben. Class player, but not that highly. Interesting thread
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
An all time Dutch XI would be incredibly formidable:

---------------------Van Basten----------------------
Overmars---------Cruyff--------------Robben
--------------Gullit-------------Seedorf-------------
Frank de Boer-Rijkaard-Koeman-Blind
---------------------Van der Sar----------------------

Bench: RVN, Davids, Ronald de Boer, Kluivert, Van Bronkhorst, Van Persie, Stam, Sneijder, Bergkamp

That has to be up there with the best all time XIs any country can put out. And I'm surely overlooking a fair few.
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Now that's a team you'd pay good money to watch.
 
Cruyff, and it should not really be a discussion. His play on the field and his accomplishments speak for himself. The sad thing is, if he hadn`t been such an arrogant prick he could have been even greater. Nevertheless, he is head and shoulders above every one else from the Netherlands.
 
Cruyff all day long but Clarence Seedorf and Van Basten push him close for me.
 
My order of best.

1. Cruyff
2. Van Basten
3. Gullit
4. Rijkaard
5. Neeskens

I haven't seen much of many other older players so my 6-10 would be;

6. Seedorf
7. Bergkamp
8. Robben
9. Van Nistelrooy
10. Van Persie
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Think Neeskens played RB occasionally and Rijkaard could drop if needed, though wouldn't give a natural RB. Or could drop Stam for Suurbier (harsh as I rate Stam) and play Rijkaard as CH for a proper back 4.
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Agreed that the right-back position is their weakest and hence the workarounds (either a back 3 without wing-backs or a 4 with Stam or Neeskens there). If playing a back 4 - and there's something intrinsically Dutch about the 4-3-3 - I'd prefer shifting either of those players there as they have high quality alternatives in their substantive positions, for example:

Cruyff - Van Basten - Robben
Davids - Gullit
Rijkaard
Krol - Koeman - Stam - Neeskens
VDS
​
Neeskens' credentials there look solid enough, given his skillset and season there winning the European Cup for Ajax.
 
Gio said:
Agreed that the right-back position is their weakest and hence the workarounds (either a back 3 without wing-backs or a 4 with Stam or Neeskens there). If playing a back 4 - and there's something intrinsically Dutch about the 4-3-3 - I'd prefer shifting either of those players there as they have high quality alternatives in their substantive positions, for example:

Cruyff - Van Basten - Robben
Davids - Gullit
Rijkaard
Krol - Koeman - Stam - Neeskens
VDS
​
Neeskens' credentials there look solid enough, given his skillset and season there winning the European Cup for Ajax.
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Yeah, like that team, I was thinking Robben probably deserved a shout too. Fair play, never liked him when here but the quality/length of his career can't be argued with... grown on me.

This gets most players (bar Neeskens) in their 'expected' positions. There's a discussion about Cruyff playing central, Gullit wider but given how good they were in either position, it's a toss of a coin?

You'd struggle to find a better back four who were comfortable with ball at feet and could take on players/ping long passes? Stam probably 'worst' of those four and he was more than competent (just me but in my AT United XI).

In terms of peak ability, silk and steel attributes, balance around the pitch, pace, interchangeable positions, ability to score individually and athleticism... that'd be a tough team to beat even by other AT country XIs.
 
Gio said:
Agreed that the right-back position is their weakest and hence the workarounds (either a back 3 without wing-backs or a 4 with Stam or Neeskens there). If playing a back 4 - and there's something intrinsically Dutch about the 4-3-3 - I'd prefer shifting either of those players there as they have high quality alternatives in their substantive positions, for example:

Cruyff - Van Basten - Robben
Davids - Gullit
Rijkaard
Krol - Koeman - Stam - Neeskens
VDS
​
Neeskens' credentials there look solid enough, given his skillset and season there winning the European Cup for Ajax.
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Yeah, creating a Dutch 11 but not using 4-3-3 seems almost contradictory. I mean, you work with what you've got, of course, but 4-3-3 is just so big in the Netherlands. At RB, how about Reiziger? Not quite world class I suppose, but still a strong choice.
 
RooneyLegend said:
This talk of it not being close is underrating Van Basten to the extreme. I'm genuinely shocked by this thread.
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I am too young for Cruyff to compare. All I will say is the Van Basten in his last 2/3years at AC Milan before the injury is one of the best players in any position I have ever seen and only fat Ronaldo was a better striker all round. Romario probably the best finisher I have seen inside the box, Van Basten was just the best finisher.

Also think Davids bar the AC Milan spell and the twilight at Spurs when he was finished was actually under rated as a midfielder. Phenomenal player and his performance virtually battling said Fat Ronaldo for Holland in the world cup will live long in the memory. Personal opinion but I would put those two ahead of all the other Dutch players in my lifetime and there have been many fabulous players for them, its been quite sad the last decade how they havent really had those superstar players.
 
The one and only Willy van der Kuylen should be mentioned among the others. But it is Cruyff of course.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Yeah, like that team, I was thinking Robben probably deserved a shout too. Fair play, never liked him when here but the quality/length of his career can't be argued with... grown on me.

This gets most players (bar Neeskens) in their 'expected' positions. There's a discussion about Cruyff playing central, Gullit wider but given how good they were in either position, it's a toss of a coin?
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Same - I think the last time I did this XI he wasn't in my team, but in fairness he offers something a little bit different and helps to stretch the play. That Dutch versatility gives a lot of options to move players around as so many of them are so class in multiple positions.
Cheimoon said:
Yeah, creating a Dutch 11 but not using 4-3-3 seems almost contradictory. I mean, you work with what you've got, of course, but 4-3-3 is just so big in the Netherlands. At RB, how about Reiziger? Not quite world class I suppose, but still a strong choice.
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Aye Reiziger is probably my favourite natural right-back the Dutch have had. Good physical qualities and decent enough on the ball.
 
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