Ryan Babbel is up there
Who is the greatest Dutch player of all time?
- Thread starter horsechoker
- Start date
Van Nistelrooy. Others would be VDB, Van Der Saar, Van Persie. Those are the only ones I care about
Cruyff, Van Basten all played before I started watching football so deep down I don’t really care to rate them
Kluivert chose not to join us so he is in my bad boy list. Ditto for Robben. Sneijder good but inconsistent.
I would make an exception for De Jong if he joins us when Barca crumple under financial distress.
Edit - Edgar Davids was a great player. Would have loved to have him at Utd.
Cruyff, Van Basten all played before I started watching football so deep down I don’t really care to rate them
Kluivert chose not to join us so he is in my bad boy list. Ditto for Robben. Sneijder good but inconsistent.
I would make an exception for De Jong if he joins us when Barca crumple under financial distress.
Edit - Edgar Davids was a great player. Would have loved to have him at Utd.
Well it depends on how you look at it. Pele has been made more mainstream, but Jairzinho, Carlos Alberto, Garrincha are all debatably for GOAT. Most people think only of Pele, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and to a lesser extent Romario but the former 3 were seen as better. Look at what they won.
Are you referring to Di Stefano? He played for Spain mainly.
They have access to Youtube. We also all have an idea of who the greatest in each sport is, just because we didn't watch them doesn't mean they aren't GOAT's.
Some weird mentions in here. I mean, Kuyt and Blind? 
The Dutch have had some really great players!
The Dutch have had some really great players!
I was pretty sure to see some arguing on here whether van Dijk already surpassed Cruyff or not.
In my opinion there can be only an argument about the 3rd best dutch player.
1. Cruyff
2. van Basten
3. Rijkaard/Gullit/Robben/Neeskens
In my opinion there can be only an argument about the 3rd best dutch player.
1. Cruyff
2. van Basten
3. Rijkaard/Gullit/Robben/Neeskens
Cruyff aside, it's Van Basten. Retired at 28. He's that good he didn't even see out his peak....... Consider that for a moment.
Bergkamp quite underrated in this thread.
Let's face it: anyone other than Pelé for Brazil will be a hipster choice or recency/nostalgia bias for most probably Ronaldo. To paraphrase a very wise man: look at what he won.
It's unfair on Garrincha, probably, but that's just how it is.
In theory it would be Cruyff right? Never seen him play, but yeah... Cruyff
Is a better question who is the Dutchiest player of all time? I'll go Pierre van Hooijdonk
Is a better question who is the Dutchiest player of all time? I'll go Pierre van Hooijdonk
Top 10:
1 Cruyff
2 Van Basten
3 Gullit
4 Van Hanegem
5 Neeskens
6 Krol
7 Bergkamp
8 Robben
9 Davids
10. Rensenbrink
All Time XI:
-----------------------Van Der Sar
Suurbier-------Stam--------Israel---------Krol
----------Neeskens--------------Rijkaard
Gullit------------------Cruyff--------------Rensenbrink
------------------------Van Basten
1 Cruyff
2 Van Basten
3 Gullit
4 Van Hanegem
5 Neeskens
6 Krol
7 Bergkamp
8 Robben
9 Davids
10. Rensenbrink
All Time XI:
-----------------------Van Der Sar
Suurbier-------Stam--------Israel---------Krol
----------Neeskens--------------Rijkaard
Gullit------------------Cruyff--------------Rensenbrink
------------------------Van Basten
He'd have to be orange haired, smoke cannabis, strong dutch accent and tall as shit
He's a weird one though. He was a joy to watch, an absolutely breathtaking player but he was never quite as influential for his teams as the very best. He was probably more talented than, say, Robben but I think the bald fecker had the ability to carry teams on his back at times - Van Gaal's Netherlands in 2014 basically consisted of 'give Robben the ball', for example -, something that wasn't Bergkamp's thing.
It probably doesn't help that his best years at Arsenal coincided with United's arguably greatest ever team and then he was utterly overshadowed by Henry.
Sure - but it would seem weird to leave him out of the Argentinian context. He won his only major trophy on the national level for Argentina - for one thing. And was never not associated with Argentina (even though he obviously became naturalized and played more matches for Spain than Argentina).
Others are more qualified than me to comment on this - but he clearly isn't a 100% Spanish player (his story is unusually complex in that regard, as he has international matches for Colombia too on his resume).
- Johan Cruyff — there's not even an option of picking anyone else for the first place
- Marco van Basten — it's possible that van Basten without his health issues would've been able to try to overcome Cruyff, but that didn't happen
- Ruud Gullit — probably the most all-rounded player of all-time; just yesterday I was watching him playing as a libero in 1986!
- Frank Rijkaard — one of the greatest midfielders of all-time, I'd put him somewhere close to Xavi and Matthäus (although their styles are very different, mind)
- Johan Neeskens — one of the greatest midfielders of all-time, overshadowed by Johan the First
- Arjen Robben — one save away from moving to 4th or so
- Rob Rensenbrink — a few centimetres away from moving to 4th or so
- Denis Bergkamp — simply magical, but something was missing
- Wim van Hanegem — perhaps unfairly overshadowed by his contemporaries from Ajax
- Ruud Krol — maybe deserves a place a little higher, but the public perception is always unfair to defenders
I doubt that van Dijk will be able to get into top-10, but when he'll retire he'll probably end up in the honorable mentions list.
If only he had the drive to match his talent!
Bergkamp had a great start at Ajax. Totally flopped in Serie A with Inter. Was great to watch at Arsenal but didn't really win much. Had a few stand out moments for Netherlands but again never won anything with them.
Great technical player but not an all time great in comparison to the other Dutch masters mentioned here.
It's probably this. The number of attacking players Netherlands produced over the century leaves not much space for Bergkamp or even Van Nistelrooy.
I still think of Bergkamp as ultimate Dutch football magician.
This isn't the Bale thread!
Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto for GOAT? Jairzinho especially, since it's hard to compare attackers and defenders, on what basis he is even remotely in consideration?* Especially when there are the likes of Zico handing around.
* probably worth mentioning that I've watched every available footage of Jairzinho at Botafogo when I was making a video about him. He was a fantastic player, but nowhere near the likes of Pelé, Zico or Ronaldo. I'm not even sure if he'd make my Brazil 1970 top-5 — Pelé was the star and I'd say that Gerson, Rivelino, Tostão and Carlos Alberto played at least as good as Jairzinho did (it's just that tactically he ended up the focal point of most of their attacks).
You know there are full games on YouTube, right? And on other sources.
Again - many full matches are available to watch. It's not YouTube clips.
Ffs, I forgot about Ruud when I was compiling my list! Netherlands are ridiculously stacked with attacking talent.
As for the ultimate Dutch football magician — I think that's fair. Cruyff & van Basten were equally magical but they'll appeal to different generations and aside from them I think Bergkamp has more "magic" than anyone else on that list, even Gullit.
He played 6 games for them, 31 games for Spain. Depends how you want to look at it I suppose.
Well people can easily watch archived matches on the internet.
Well name who you want, there are still many more to debate the GOAT for Brazil than Holland. Many people would say Ronaldo over Pele anyway. Who would say any Holland player above Cruyff? Not many.
Van Persie too. When he played right wing he had roughly the same output in numbers as Robben, they also had similar productivity when both were playing from the left wing as youngsters in the Netherlands. When RVP started playing #9 he scored an amount of goals Robben never managed in any position or set-up. And while you normally would say it's logical for someone playing the #9 to score more goals than someone more out wide, a guy like C. Ronaldo proves this doesn't have to be the case at all. Robben had more pace obviously, but in literally pretty much every other aspect of the game RVP was either of a comparable level or even superior.
Comparing those two for me is a bit like the Xavi/Iniesta discussion, I personally really can't choose between the two and very strongly feel you're doing one player an incredible disservice the moment you're rating the other player (significantly) higher, I think it's more down to personal preference than a seriously measurable difference in quality or something. So it somehwat boggles my mind how many people casually mention Robben but not RVP, I mean I absolutely love Robben and his electrifying pace but I just don't see how he was actually a better player.
Back in the '70s Feyenoord was the first Dutch team to win the Europacup 1, just before Ajax had a really dominant phase in Europe, and plenty of people the from older generations tend to rate Willem van Hanegem as the second best Dutch player ever behind Cruijff. Personally I would put Gullit and Van Basten above him, but Van Hanegem is probably the best Dutch midfielder ever. That Feyenoord team also had a truly phenomenal and unselfish left footed left winger called Coen Moulijn, who literally had a God-like status at the time and many people and former players from that generation put him on par or even above someone like Robben, yet a guy like that barely ever gets a mention on here.
Personally I'm a massive fan of guys like Robbie Rensenbrink and Frank Rijkaard.
And then there's a whole generation before the '60's and '70's. Post WW2 you had a phenomenal goalscorer called Faas Wilkes, first Dutch player to play in Italy when he signed for Inter Milan in 1949, he was Johan Cruijff's idol, obviously guys from that generation might've been incredibly special players but it's really hard to rate them accurately.
Cruyff
Jordi Cruyff's dad
Jordi Cruyff's dad
Only Garrincha is close to greatest of all time stature from those three, I'm afraid. The other two don't have a realistic chance if we're being fair and objective.
Jairzinho definitely misses out in the true GOAT stakes — club career is somewhat underwhelming, not the best in the world on a sustained basis, and shone bright in only 1 World Cup for the Seleção (where Gérson and Pelé in particular were enormous factors even though Jairzinho scored in every match). All things considered his overall talent and accomplishments are bettered with not just the great post-modern players (like Rivaldo: who had a magnificent peak and was a difference maker in 2 World Cups + Copa América), but the likes of Zico and Didi before them — and his historical influence is also inferior to the likes of Zizinho and Leônidas.
Carlos Alberto was outstanding and probably makes it a positional-greatness ranking, but faces stiff competition from Nílton/Djalma Santos and Cafú. Would say the Top 5 for Brazil after Pelé is a near-complete lock with little room for change. In no particular order to iron out any issues regarding favoritism or era-bias...
- Garrincha
- Zico
- Romário
- Didi
- Fenômeno
Since you mentioned so many players, our own Ruud couldn't even make it to your honourable mentions, alongside with the likes of RVP, Stamina, Seedorf, Davids...
Donny
How is this a question??? I can't find the white text.
One of the things i find most interesting about Netherlands football history is how quickly they came from a half-century of not even being a decent 2nd/3rd tier footballing nation to producing great club and international teams, and then maintained a high standard since then with only a few short bad times since then.
Honestly, I only ever think of Di Stefano as a Real Madrid player and as far as I'm concerned he might as well have ceased to exist in between club games. Once Puskás left Hungary, they should have just founded their own nation and competed for that together instead of that Spain nonsense.
Incredible post, much appreciated. Robben's phenomenon is probably dictated by his drive for football despite injuries trying get in the way, at this point he was, as stated before in the thread, above Bergkamp and I would risk and say he was closer with that to Robbie Rensenbrink who on top of being a complete footballer was also another Dutch goalscoring machine.
It's obvious though, isn't it? Robben had a far better career than Van Persie and like it or now, these things tend to matter when people evaluate players. In the end, Van Persie has one league title in a professional career spanning 18 years and most people remember him primarily as that talented striker who was always injured at Arsenal. Robben achieved far more in football.
This is why the Xavi/Iniesta comparison isn't really valid. They shared all their success so it doesn't play a part in the comparison, it's all about the actual ability and there I agree that it mostly comes down to personal preference.
I like how you included one "old" player in Cruyff and forgot half their seemingly brilliant 70s team. I doubt you´ve even seen Cruyff play, but just added him in there because "that´s what you do".
Top 5:
1. Johan Cruyff
2. Marco van Basten
3. Frank Rijkaard
4. Johan Neeskens
5. Ruud Gullit
Excellent. Alternate could be:
.......Van Basten.....Gullit......
..................Cruyff.................
........Davids..........Neeskens
...................Rijkaard...............
Krol...Koeman...Stam....Blind
1. Johan Cruyff
2. Marco van Basten
3. Frank Rijkaard
4. Johan Neeskens
5. Ruud Gullit
Excellent. Alternate could be:
.......Van Basten.....Gullit......
..................Cruyff.................
........Davids..........Neeskens
...................Rijkaard...............
Krol...Koeman...Stam....Blind