Who are the top 5 box-to-box midfielders of all-time?

5 is an awkward number to make the cut off. For me there’s a top tier headed by Matthaus, followed by Rijkaard* and Falcao. After that there’s a larger second tier comprising up to 10 players or so - Neeskens, Tigana, Davids, Tardelli, Keane, Masopust, Breitner, Schweinsteiger*, Vieira, Voronin.

*Rijkaard is a tricky one. Nothing more frustrating than pigeon-holing him as just a DM or a foil for others to push forward, because he could do it all and was a major asset in both boxes. But could just as easily remove him from the discussion along with all the great South American deeper-lyers like Varela, Goncalves, Zito and Redondo, as well as the Europeans like Souness, Bozsik and any of the modern double pivot types like Alonso or Schweinsteiger. Someone like Schweinsteiger might have been a classic box-to-box merchant in the 80s or 90s where there are more turnovers, second balls, vertical play and less ball retention within midfield. So it’s important we take account of the tactical environment of the time and consider how players might have adapted to different central midfield roles. It’s a bit like the debate over Keane and Gerrard. Keane was peerless in the land of 4-4-2, while Gerrard was unstoppable when released within a three-man midfield. But he could have been a hell of a force in an 80s warzone.

Fortitude said:
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Keane is polls apart from Davids in the offensive third. After Ajax, Davids was basically a non-entity as an attacker scoring a paltry c. 17 goals in over 300 club games. Keane matches that with his 2 best goalscoring seasons for United alone.
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I agree that Davids is the weakest goal scorer of the bunch, but goalscoring is too narrow a prism to rule players in and out of the broad category of box-to-box. And if you’re removing Ajax from the equation, you have to caveat the tactical straight jacket that was Serie A versus the more open and end-to-end Premier League. Even the legend operating 10 yards ahead of him at Juve struggled to score more than sporadically. Literally we are talking about players who contributed heavily all over the park in all phases of the game. And Davids as well as being in the top handful of all time off the ball, was pretty explosive and expansive on it. I get that the ultimate coup de grace for any box-to-box central midfielder is getting on the end of something after a lung-bursting run, but it’s only part of the wide-ranging overall contribution.
 
difficult to choose between Neeskens and Falcao. Just tip it for Johan as he was better defensively than Falcao. Mario Coluna of Benfica and Portugal is worth a mention as is Gunter Netzer and for those of us lucky enough to have seen Duncan Edwards
 
Gio said:
5 is an awkward number to make the cut off. For me there’s a top tier headed by Matthaus, followed by Rijkaard* and Falcao. After that there’s a larger second tier comprising up to 10 players or so - Neeskens, Tigana, Davids, Tardelli, Keane, Masopust, Breitner, Schweinsteiger*, Vieira, Voronin.

*Rijkaard is a tricky one. Nothing more frustrating than pigeon-holing him as just a DM or a foil for others to push forward, because he could do it all and was a major asset in both boxes. But could just as easily remove him from the discussion along with all the great South American deeper-lyers like Varela, Goncalves, Zito and Redondo, as well as the Europeans like Souness, Bozsik and any of the modern double pivot types like Alonso or Schweinsteiger. Someone like Schweinsteiger might have been a classic box-to-box merchant in the 80s or 90s where there are more turnovers, second balls, vertical play and less ball retention within midfield. So it’s important we take account of the tactical environment of the time and consider how players might have adapted to different central midfield roles. It’s a bit like the debate over Keane and Gerrard. Keane was peerless in the land of 4-4-2, while Gerrard was unstoppable when released within a three-man midfield. But he could have been a hell of a force in an 80s warzone.


I agree that Davids is the weakest goal scorer of the bunch, but goalscoring is too narrow a prism to rule players in and out of the broad category of box-to-box. And if you’re removing Ajax from the equation, you have to caveat the tactical straight jacket that was Serie A versus the more open and end-to-end Premier League. Even the legend operating 10 yards ahead of him at Juve struggled to score more than sporadically. Literally we are talking about players who contributed heavily all over the park in all phases of the game. And Davids as well as being in the top handful of all time off the ball, was pretty explosive and expansive on it. I get that the ultimate coup de grace for any box-to-box central midfielder is getting on the end of something after a lung-bursting run, but it’s only part of the wide-ranging overall contribution.
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I find the discussion revolving around Rijkaard to be threadworthy in itself. @harms has stated the case for him as a CM and I suppose it comes across as marginalising him to say he wasn't. The issue, though, is that if you were ultimately setting up your greatest 2 or 3 man midfield system, Rijkaard is going to be put at the base with almost any of the others in this discussion put in the CM role next to him - what he could do going forward others could do better by way of being superior as attacking talents.

Rijkaard was rounded, of course he was, but he wasn't a honed attacker when you think of players like Falcao, Matthaus, Robson and so forth. Me personally, I've never made a world xi with Rijkaard in the box-to-box role as I feel it would do more to unbalance the team than enhance it. Contrast that with Beckenbauer, who looks the equal of anyone irrespective of whether he's put in CM next to a Rijkaard or at the base releasing another despite not really being eligible in this thread due to the brevity of his time as an actual CM over his career.

re. Davids. apart from those sudden-bursting runs and quick chain passes (to release him, not the other way round as his passing let others down), he is just less of a player in an attacking sense than Keane even if you don't tally goals. Heading, shooting, crossing, positioning, decision-making, composure - I think Keane proved time and again to be better at these things than Davids and even taking your Ajax or Serie A points on board, there's a whole body of work for Netherlands and Ireland that says the same thing. What further highlights this is that it wasn't lack of opportunity or chances that had Davids fall short - it was often him flubbing lines after doing really impressive things in the build-up, especially scuffing shots or hitting them tamely or wide. I would put forward that the strait-jacket of Serie A wasn't the issue for Davids, as he had plenty of opportunities to make good in the final third but just didn't excel at it.
 
Invictus said:
Wouldn't classify him as a box-to-box midfielder, truth be told. More of a deep lying playmaker or possession oriented holding midfielder depending on how the team is constructed and who is playing with him in midfield - think of an amalgam of Pirlo and Busquets with better ball retention and evasiveness in confined spaces because of his maneuverability and fine dribbling ability - which allowed him to waltz through opposition midfields or individual markers.

For those two categories, you could argue that he's among the greatest and most talented players of all time, and the most gifted central-ish midfielder from South America after the likes of Didi (when he played slightly deeper) or Falcão. However, he spent some fruitless years at Tenerife as regards the elite level in club football, and refused to play under Passarella for Argentina - which affected his legacy, and you get a sense that never truly realized his talent to its full extent. Magnificent player at his peak though - the real heartbeat of Madrid and a genuine dazzler from midfield before Pérez went overboard with the Galácticos project, and definitely in the elite-ish tier for midfielders in an All-Time context (same broader level but you can't really compare him with Keane per se given the contrast of styles, but I'd rank Redondo over the likes of Busquets in isolation, Alonso, Pirlo).

On a side note, I've been going back and forth regarding young Kaizer and whether he should be placed on a box-to-box list...definitely in the running for the best midfielder of all time apart from being THE Libero, and while the control he gave to his team was probably more suited to a deep lying playmaker, holding midfielder or tempo controlling midfielder maestro role when he played as nominal midfielder, that might just be a tad bit restrictive for someone so impactful - and he was perfectly capable of ravaging opposition defenses with penetrating runs as well:



^ Whoops, too late - @Denis' cuff has already listed him as numero uno.
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Nice clips... and that was when he was a young un, before he became the maestro. One of those elite players who always looked like he was playing with children
 
I would gladly put Masopust ahead of most of the names mentioned here.

Sammer is one.name I didn't see in the discussion so far as well. Deserves to be there along with the Kaiser. In fact I would put him ahead of the Kaiser as a pure B2B. Kaiser would me more of a playmaker in my book and does lack in physical traits you would expect of a pure B2B.
 
golden_blunder said:
Most of them weren’t box to box. Alonso rarely ventured too far forward
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Again, I went off the criteria set in the OP. Love how people say "X wasn't box to box" without providing any criteria for what box to box is in their opinion. Just words in the wind I guess.
 
freeurmind said:
Again, I went off the criteria set in the OP. Love how people say "X wasn't box to box" without providing any criteria for what box to box is in their opinion. Just words in the wind I guess.
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I didn’t really watch enough foreign football other than serie A in the 90s so didn’t want to throw names around. My favorite b2b come as no surprise Robson, Ince, Keane

Alonso wasn’t b2b in the same way as Carrick isn’t. Great players but not b2b
 
Robson was best I've ever seen...in terms of defensively brilliant, talking a game over, and scoring goals.

Many others might do 2/3 but not many excelled at all three over a decade.

Keane, Neeskens and many others didn't have Robson's goal scoring record...nearly 200 goals.

For that alone he has to be one of the best ever.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
Robson was best I've ever seen...in terms of defensively brilliant, talking a game over, and scoring goals.

Many others might do 2/3 but not many excelled at all three over a decade.

Keane, Neeskens and many others didn't have Robson's goal scoring record...nearly 200 goals.

For that alone he has to be one of the best ever.
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Said before, Robson has it over Keane for me, I can even make a case for it not being particularly close if we want to concentrate on goal scoring & aerial ability & timing of runs into the opposition box (and lots more of them too.)

I was trying to think of some department of the game that Keane was better in & have managed to come up with 'continuity passing' & that's about it, unless you maybe want to count ''putting some proper stick about'' & ''show us yer medals'', :D.
 
Neeskens scored at the rate of 1 goal per 4 games for both Ajax and Barcelona over the course of a decade, and 1 in 3 for the Netherlands (including 5 in the 1974 World Cup finals). His goalscoring record is mighty impressive for someone so complete and utterly versatile in virtually every phase of midfield play, in my opinion.

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Speaking of goal-scoring feats and primarily box-to-box midfielders, Pirri is definitely up there for this particular category: close to 200 goals (mostly for Madrid and Spain) is a phenomenal output for someone who spent a fair share of the latter part of his career in defense.
 
harms said:
He never was a box-to-box, really. A great defensive midfielder for Barcelona and a fantastic attacking midfielder for City — but those two stages of his career never intersected. His best games were when Mancini fielded another midfielder and released Toure from midfield duties, a bit like Lampard (with even less defensive responsibility).

edit: almost word for word @Vialli_92 :lol: Great minds...
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I disagree with you both. I'd consider him box to box as thats exactly what he did.
 
Toure was either an AM or a DM - he never really merged the two into any sort of combined on-and-off the ball package. He could score goals from deeper in midfield but generally would struggle with getting up and down the park as he lacked the engine of pretty much everyone else mentioned in this thread. Physically he was all power bursts, fits and spurts, rather than 90 minutes of tracking runners and breaking lines. That's not putting him down at what he did - he was superb anchoring for Barcelona and was a consistent match winner during his best spell at City. A little under-rated there as well because inevitably the comparisons with Keane and Vieira come up, but they were fundamentally different players as per what I said above.
 
For the brief period his prime lasted before injury ruined him, Essien would probably be in the conversation. He was just unstoppable.
 
Can't argue with those top three Falcao, Neeskens and Matthaus are the three best.

To me Davids comes next and then a host of players like Robson, Vieira, Keane, Tardelli, Seedorf. And after that I'd have a few like Essien and Ballack who never quite achieved their maximum potential imo. Not sure where I'd rate Schweiny and Vidal at the moment, too soon for me to think about but they deserve a mention.
 
Gio said:
Toure was either an AM or a DM - he never really merged the two into any sort of combined on-and-off the ball package. He could score goals from deeper in midfield but generally would struggle with getting up and down the park as he lacked the engine of pretty much everyone else mentioned in this thread. Physically he was all power bursts, fits and spurts, rather than 90 minutes of tracking runners and breaking lines. That's not putting him down at what he did - he was superb anchoring for Barcelona and was a consistent match winner during his best spell at City. A little under-rated there as well because inevitably the comparisons with Keane and Vieira come up, but they were fundamentally different players as per what I said above.
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The Toure discussion reminds me of that Jonathan Wilson article where he lists a third type of holding midfielder - the surger or carrier - who is not a regista and not a destroyer. Toure was one of his primary example because he would carry the ball forward much more often than the other two types of DM. He did lack the engine of the classic b2b but just looking at play styles its a bit tough to tell where a "surger dm" ends and a b2b begins. In some ways a surger DM is just a lazy b2b.
 
What's the point of being box-to-box if you aren't adding goalscoring into the equation.

Those midfielders who therefore scored loads of goals had a major influence on the game and the results.

As a consequence, for me, that has to be the number one criteria of an excellent box-to-box midfielder.

So...do the math and work out who scored loads of goals from midfield....AND was good at the other two aspects.

Essien for example was a great player...but he only scored 43 goals in his whole career. Edgar Davids scored 32, he was an amazing player. But I would never call him a great box-to-box player because he was not an attacking force as he was a defensive lynchpin. Falcao as great as he was scored 43...Schweinsteiger 51...Patrick Vieira 41...Effenberg 87...Vidal 64...Berti 47...Rijkaard 75...Tigana 37...Tardelli 43...

That's not box-to-box excellence in my mind.

Neeskens scored over a hundred...Ballack 108...Breitner 103...Seedorf 100...Keane just over 100...Gerrard 146...Vorinin 104...

Robson nearly two hundred.

I haven't watched all those players week in week out so not sure what defensive contribution they made.

Of those who I have seen...Robson's record is almost twice as good as everyone else and I would add Breitner, Keane, Ballack, Seedorf and Gerrard and Neeskens as a top 6.

All the others may be great midfielders and great defensively...but not nearly enough goals to be regarded as great box-to-box.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
What's the point of being box-to-box if you aren't adding goalscoring into the equation.

Those midfielders who therefore scored loads of goals had a major influence on the game and the results.

As a consequence, for me, that has to be the number one criteria of an excellent box-to-box midfielder.

So...do the math and work out who scored loads of goals from midfield....AND was good at the other two aspects.

Essien for example was a great player...but he only scored 43 goals in his whole career. Edgar Davids scored 32, he was an amazing player. But I would never call him a great box-to-box player because he was not an attacking force as he was a defensive lynchpin. Falcao as great as he was scored 43...Schweinsteiger 51...Patrick Vieira 41...Effenberg 87...Vidal 64...Berti 47...Rijkaard 75...Tigana 37...Tardelli 43...

That's not box-to-box excellence in my mind.

Neeskens scored over a hundred...Ballack 108...Breitner 103...Seedorf 100...Keane just over 100...Gerrard 146...Vorinin 104...

Robson nearly two hundred.

I haven't watched all those players week in week out so not sure what defensive contribution they made.

Of those who I have seen...Robson's record is almost twice as good as everyone else and I would add Breitner, Keane, Ballack, Seedorf and Gerrard and Neeskens as a top 6.

All the others may be great midfielders and great defensively...but not nearly enough goals to be regarded as great box-to-box.
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Where are you getting c. 200 goals for Robson from? I can't find any site that corroborates that.

You're comparing Robson to a lot of players who got to do more than him on grander stages, which is the sacrifice Robson made by staying with United at a time when he could have gone to any top club on the planet - he suffered majorly for staying in England during the European club ban.

There's also a need for context when tallying goals from different leagues as Division 1 was a free-scoring league when compared to the absolutely stifling conditions of 80's Serie A.

If goals are weighted by the strength of league at the time these players were active, then Matthaus is the biggest benefactor of all, too.

I think as a footballer, Robson is superior to someone like Keane, but you can't have what ifs and extrapolations at this level, especially so when there's so many players with been there done that criteria as instrumental components that goes all the way through to winning everything possible in club and NT football, or getting within a whisker of doing so.

Robson was cursed to not get to showcase his immense talent to the broader footballing audience more often than he did, always injured at absolutely crucial times in regards to legacy as he was.
 
Charles Miller said:
Watching Lothar Mathaus in that time, i never realized he was a b2b tbh.. thought he was a 10.
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Started out as something close to a #10 and sort of dropped back in the lineup through his career, ending up playing a sweeper role for Bayern and Germany. (Olaf Thon more or less did the same, as did Breitner, whohad started as a winger)
Don't really see Schweinsteiger up there with the all time greats, though. He was good, but not really consistently dominating that position.
 
Robson since he's the very definition of the term. Others are better in one area than another while he's the most balanced of them all.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Robson since he's the very definition of the term. Others are better in one area than another while he's the most balanced of them all.
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Robson's defensive side was not the equal of his offensive. Neeskens is the very definition of balance; nobody can match him for that, imo.
 
Fortitude said:
Where are you getting c. 200 goals for Robson from? I can't find any site that corroborates that.

You're comparing Robson to a lot of players who got to do more than him on grander stages, which is the sacrifice Robson made by staying with United at a time when he could have gone to any top club on the planet - he suffered majorly for staying in England during the European club ban.

There's also a need for context when tallying goals from different leagues as Division 1 was a free-scoring league when compared to the absolutely stifling conditions of 80's Serie A.

If goals are weighted by the strength of league at the time these players were active, then Matthaus is the biggest benefactor of all, too.

I think as a footballer, Robson is superior to someone like Keane, but you can't have what ifs and extrapolations at this level, especially so when there's so many players with been there done that criteria as instrumental components that goes all the way through to winning everything possible in club and NT football, or getting within a whisker of doing so.

Robson was cursed to not get to showcase his immense talent to the broader footballing audience more often than he did, always injured at absolutely crucial times in regards to legacy as he was.
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It's all if's and but's.

No-one really knows what any player would do in any given league.

All we have is what they did do.

Most posters on here don't even have Robson anywhere near the top players and it makes me wonder if they ever saw him play.

Regardless of how open the English League was...he still scored 200-250% more goals than some of those players mentioned and I'm not convinced that the English League was 200-250% more open than that of Holland, France, Germany where some of these other players featured. In Italy, it was a defensive culture as you say...but I still think he would have scored at least 30% of his final tally which is comparative.

Robbo scored 147 goals for West Brom, United and Middlesbrough. That's not including any FA Cup, League Cup and European matches for West Brom as I don't have those figures.

He scored a further 26 goals for England full international side which is the highest of any box-to-box midfielder. Even higher than Gerrard who played in more games.

So that's 173 goals not including other representative games, and those I missed for West Brom. I reckon it must have been in the 180/185 mark.

When you compare that to every other box-to-box midfielder mentioned on here...he is streets ahead.

I really never saw Neeskens day in and day out. A bit of Breitner who was excellent but not that much of the others...so it's all opinion really.

I'm not saying Robson is the best ever...I am saying that he should be in the discussion.
 
strongwalker said:
Started out as something close to a #10 and sort of dropped back in the lineup through his career, ending up playing a sweeper role for Bayern and Germany. (Olaf Thon more or less did the same, as did Breitner, whohad started as a winger)
Don't really see Schweinsteiger up there with the all time greats, though. He was good, but not really consistently dominating that position.
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I watched him mostly playing for Germany. Always thought he was a 10. I do remember him playing as sweeper at some point.
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
What's the point of being box-to-box if you aren't adding goalscoring into the equation.

Those midfielders who therefore scored loads of goals had a major influence on the game and the results.

As a consequence, for me, that has to be the number one criteria of an excellent box-to-box midfielder.

So...do the math and work out who scored loads of goals from midfield....AND was good at the other two aspects.

Essien for example was a great player...but he only scored 43 goals in his whole career. Edgar Davids scored 32, he was an amazing player. But I would never call him a great box-to-box player because he was not an attacking force as he was a defensive lynchpin. Falcao as great as he was scored 43...Schweinsteiger 51...Patrick Vieira 41...Effenberg 87...Vidal 64...Berti 47...Rijkaard 75...Tigana 37...Tardelli 43...

That's not box-to-box excellence in my mind.

Neeskens scored over a hundred...Ballack 108...Breitner 103...Seedorf 100...Keane just over 100...Gerrard 146...Vorinin 104...

Robson nearly two hundred.

I haven't watched all those players week in week out so not sure what defensive contribution they made.

Of those who I have seen...Robson's record is almost twice as good as everyone else and I would add Breitner, Keane, Ballack, Seedorf and Gerrard and Neeskens as a top 6.

All the others may be great midfielders and great defensively...but not nearly enough goals to be regarded as great box-to-box.
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We need to be careful using stats without context because it can be misleading. Many of those names played in the different leagues/time/clubs. Example: Someone like Nainggolan probably would have even better stats if he spend his career in Barcelona instead of Roma. And even if we will take the stats we need to bring assists, % of pass, chances created, etc.
 
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