A top quality DM like Casemiro is actually pretty hard to find imo. I'm happy enough with our options of Matic, Mctominay and Fred in that position. For once we actually have strong midfield options.
Which do we need more? DM or Back up creative midfielder
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As a back-up no.10, what do think of Buendia?
I know he didn't do much today, but he's got a lot of assists and completed dribbles this season playing for the team that's bottom of the league .
I know he didn't do much today, but he's got a lot of assists and completed dribbles this season playing for the team that's bottom of the league .
I think yesterday's game highlighted why i made this thread. We all know RW is priority. But look at the game against Norwich. Because we don't have a solid back up AM like VdB for example, we risked Bruno getting injured and fatigue when he should have been resting with Pogba on the bench against a team like Norwich. So in a scenario where Bruno gets injured we go back to mediocrity
Then you look at Fred and Mctominay. They can't control and calm the game like Matic does and are clumsy with their forward passes to consistently progress the ball forward like Matic. Both are just not suitable against sides that sit deep. So in a scenario where Matic gets injured you can either play Fred or Mctominay and none of them can offer what Matic offers when facing and trying to beat low blocks(which is about 70% of our games). Asides from that, putting Fred in there in a double pivot with Pogba and we would be easily bypassed. We've already seen Mctominay and Pogba in a pivot a few times and it didn't go well.
Fred and Mctominay are good players but they are not DMs and are limited on the ball so they offer very little against low blocks. One injury to Matic and we have no one to progress the ball from midfield and make those consistent forward progress passes. Meanwhile an injury to Bruno or rotation and we don't have a solid back up AM to takeover
Then you look at Fred and Mctominay. They can't control and calm the game like Matic does and are clumsy with their forward passes to consistently progress the ball forward like Matic. Both are just not suitable against sides that sit deep. So in a scenario where Matic gets injured you can either play Fred or Mctominay and none of them can offer what Matic offers when facing and trying to beat low blocks(which is about 70% of our games). Asides from that, putting Fred in there in a double pivot with Pogba and we would be easily bypassed. We've already seen Mctominay and Pogba in a pivot a few times and it didn't go well.
Fred and Mctominay are good players but they are not DMs and are limited on the ball so they offer very little against low blocks. One injury to Matic and we have no one to progress the ball from midfield and make those consistent forward progress passes. Meanwhile an injury to Bruno or rotation and we don't have a solid back up AM to takeover
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I think it highlights the need for a CAM, DM and dribbler.
DVB and someone with Grealish’s footballing style (and not his personality)
DVB and someone with Grealish’s footballing style (and not his personality)
Yeah but weare getting two of those at best. The dribbler is Sancho if we get him. So it's between what we need more - AM or DM as the second signing
We need a midfielder who could hold and also play very well with the ball. The drop in quality from Matic to McTominay in all departments, both in defensive discipline and with the ball is so huge that we can't afford going into a new season without another option in midfield. Assuming we settle on a Matic-Pogba-Bruno trio, an injury to Matic would cause a need to completely restructure the team's midfield setup, unless Fred could prove himself viable for the deepest role in midfield. Matic even when fit also cannot always be relied on, and I'd trust Bruno as our sole specialist AM over Matic as the sole holding midfielder.
A midfielder like Kalvin Phillips or Thomas Partey would ensure that barring an unlikely double injury to him and Matic, we'd always have a third midfielder that could play with the ball and capable of providing enough defensive cover for Pogba and Bruno. If any of Bruno and Pogba is unavailable, we could then bring in Fred while retaining enough quality with the ball, with McTominay as sixth choice.
A midfielder like Kalvin Phillips or Thomas Partey would ensure that barring an unlikely double injury to him and Matic, we'd always have a third midfielder that could play with the ball and capable of providing enough defensive cover for Pogba and Bruno. If any of Bruno and Pogba is unavailable, we could then bring in Fred while retaining enough quality with the ball, with McTominay as sixth choice.
You need both. Matic is solid enough at the moment but he is aging so will need replaced at some point and it's clear that without Bruno or Pogba you struggle immensely to create anything. People like Fred, McTominay and Lingard would excel at Liverpool because they are runners but at United where your system relies on wingers/CM to create things instead of the fullbacks they will struggle unless they have a Bruno/Pogba alongside them who can do that.
IF we wanted someone with the vision and technical ability to play as a CAM, while simultaneously able to operate as a CDM with defensive duties --> Tonali.
Ideally, we would get two players, like Partey and Grealish (fee dependent on relegation or not.).
Exactly I think if you have to pick between an AM or DM it's all preference.
Say we buy Grealish.
Scenario 1: Matic injures
...........Bruno......
Mctominay....PogbaScenario 2: Pogba injures
..........Bruno.......
Matic............Fred
Scenario 3: Bruno injures
........Grealish.....
Matic.......Pogba
But let's say we get a DM instead: Kalvin Philips for example.
Scenario 1: Pogba injures
........Bruno......
Matic........Fred
Scenario 2: Bruno injures
Pogba.....Fred
.......Matic.....
Scenario 3: Matic injures
........ Bruno....
Phillips...Pogba
I think whether you want and AM or DM instead, it just depends on which situation you would rather find yourself in if we lose any of Bruno Matic or Pogba to injury or rotation
We have the defensive midfield requirements in Fred,Matic and McTom and we have the attacking options in Pogba and Bruno (and hopefully one more) but we dont have that player inbetween those two requirements. We dont have someone in there that will make us tick,like a peak Scholes,Modric or a Xavi.
This particular type of player has been needed for us since Scholes hung up his boots in 2013 !
This particular type of player has been needed for us since Scholes hung up his boots in 2013 !
So you mean like a tempo controller in which case would say VDB fits that profile rather than Grealish.
I do get the argument that we lack a decent backup AM to Pogba/Bruno though so it is a dilemma.
Is VDB really that player though ? I've read that he's much better linking off the forwards.
If that is the case then can see why it is him or Grealish as both offer that sort of role.
Know it isn't a true guideline but just been looking at their who scored profiles and says are both strong at key passes.
Obviously Grealish has the dribbling element to his game too. Might explain why I think he is the top target after Sancho
Personally would like us to sign both a DM good on the ball and a Grealish type player but just can't see that happening in this window.
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Our recruitment should imo be focused on attack minded players and i think we can make do with the midfield we have for another season.
to emphasise the point, 5 teams have scored more goals than us this term and some of those significantly so. It’s no coincidence that we inconsistent against mid- low tables teams, but generally compete against the top 5/6. It’s the lack of goals that costs us.
most people accept that lingard should not be at the club, perrera is questionable quality, and mata’s time has passed. That’s 3 players that currently fill attacking roles that are effectively getting first team minutes (with the amount of games we play).
RW, LW (behind rash in the pecking order but who will still get good minutes) AM (behind Bruno). ST (behind martial).
personally I’d sign sancho and Grealish if possible as Grealish can take minutes at AM, possibly CM too. Plus a ST.
I’d rely more on garner to keep matic fresh. And or leave it to scott and Fred.
I feel Phillips has the quality to establish himself ahead of Matic due to his superior ground coverage and dynamism. If that is indeed the case, I'd rather have Matic or Fred coming in for any of the starting trio, rather than having to go McTominay or bust if an AM is the one brought in and Matic gets injured or proves unreliable. The dream would be a midfielder who could play like Matic while being mobile and disciplined in defence.
Yeah that certainly would be the dream but who can we realistically get that fits into that category, fully expect Phillips to stay at Leeds as they are going to be promoted this season and think he will want a crack at the premier league with them
I'd still test the waters definitely or actively look for other options. If not Phillips, I believe we could still find players that fit that mould if that is what we are looking for. We could also take the cautious option and see how a full season of Bruno and Pogba goes while accessing our options.
The answer to who is best suited to fitting Solskjaer's style going forward is to try and understand what style he wants to implement going forward. And the style he implemented at Molde in his native Norway where he used a high press and had the fullbacks pushed high with the CBs split high up the pitch, very similar to how Jurgen Klopp and Marco Rose setup stylistically is what I believe he's working towards. In such a style you sacrifice defensive stability for offensive gain and i'm very much in favour of such a approach.
So when the fullbacks are pushed high and the CBs split higher up the pitch, you need your DM to to plug the gap between the CBs. The DM in such a tactical strategy is extremely important in defensive transition due to the high risk factor of getting countered and to maintain defensive balance in a very attack minded approach. So being just positionally good isn't gonna be enough and mobility will be key. Signing someone with fantastic passing ability along with great mobility would be the ideal signing but not a prerequisite for the style I believe Ole is trying to implement which is a very attack minded high risk strategy.
So the ideal candidate for such a role would be someone that is good on the ball, has defensive nous and is quick and mobile. We could even buy Declan Rice and he could be effective in such a setup to provide defensive balance similar to how Klopp used Sven Bender at Dortmund to great effect. But according to reports Ole wants a DM who is also capable of playing as a #8 and it's no surprise that we were credited with a serious interest in Gladbach DM Denis Zakaria by the reliable German news outlet Bild. A DM who has exelled playing the same style under Marco Rose that Solskjaer deployed at Molde to success. Thomas Partey is another player who would fit in well and has all the right attributes for the role. It also makes sense why we were linked to ex Everton player Gueye too before he joined Tuchel at PSG.
I don't know if Solskjaer will be good enough to implement the style he wants but i'm now of the opinion that we should give him the time to put his stamp on this team. Because even if he fails he will leave a team behind that will be well drilled in how the likes of Nagelmann, Rose etc want to play stylistically which will make life easier for them if as I suspect they be given the job. But I hope it does work for Ole because i'm a firm believer in how he wants United to play, but the likes of Matic and a few others will have to be replaced if the transformation is successful.
The aswer to the OP is DM imo.
So when the fullbacks are pushed high and the CBs split higher up the pitch, you need your DM to to plug the gap between the CBs. The DM in such a tactical strategy is extremely important in defensive transition due to the high risk factor of getting countered and to maintain defensive balance in a very attack minded approach. So being just positionally good isn't gonna be enough and mobility will be key. Signing someone with fantastic passing ability along with great mobility would be the ideal signing but not a prerequisite for the style I believe Ole is trying to implement which is a very attack minded high risk strategy.
So the ideal candidate for such a role would be someone that is good on the ball, has defensive nous and is quick and mobile. We could even buy Declan Rice and he could be effective in such a setup to provide defensive balance similar to how Klopp used Sven Bender at Dortmund to great effect. But according to reports Ole wants a DM who is also capable of playing as a #8 and it's no surprise that we were credited with a serious interest in Gladbach DM Denis Zakaria by the reliable German news outlet Bild. A DM who has exelled playing the same style under Marco Rose that Solskjaer deployed at Molde to success. Thomas Partey is another player who would fit in well and has all the right attributes for the role. It also makes sense why we were linked to ex Everton player Gueye too before he joined Tuchel at PSG.
I don't know if Solskjaer will be good enough to implement the style he wants but i'm now of the opinion that we should give him the time to put his stamp on this team. Because even if he fails he will leave a team behind that will be well drilled in how the likes of Nagelmann, Rose etc want to play stylistically which will make life easier for them if as I suspect they be given the job. But I hope it does work for Ole because i'm a firm believer in how he wants United to play, but the likes of Matic and a few others will have to be replaced if the transformation is successful.
The aswer to the OP is DM imo.
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We need more creativity in my opinion as well as a DM that can play in Ole's system. We already have 3 no.8s in the team in Pogba Mctominay and Fred but only Pogba can help beat sides that sit deep. So getting a DM that can also play an 8 is only useful if he can play the DM role well as well as help us beat sides that sit deep when pushed forward to the 8 position.
I know Zakaria and maybe Partey can play the DM role but are they creative enough to help us beat teams that sit deep if they play the 8 position.
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*cough* Koopmeiners
If Solskjaer gets the players he needs I think we'll score alot of goals because in a high press the whole dynamic will change back to front and we'd flood the opponents box with numbers. A DM in such a scenario becomes very important due to the high risk strategy and will provide defensive balance. Someone immobile/slow will be found wanting in such a frenetic high tempo strategy in defensive transition. Matic would be the wrong DM and it's no surprise Ole dropped him earlier in his reign before realising he had to bring him back.
Zakaria and Partey can both play as the #8 and Zakaria in particular who i've seen more of is a very skillful player on the ball and can dribble through the central areas at great speed and has good shooting ability too. He's also very disciplined and to give you a example, the first 4 games he played for Gladbach when he arrived as a 19 year old he had a 100% pass completion pre Marco Rose. Under Rose it's a different set up which involves more risk but his passing is still very good.
We pretty much already extended Matic's contract and both Fred & Scott have good season that they deserve to be in the candidate for next season so let's not ignoring their chance or possibility. Creative midfielder is needed more than DM "at the moment". However, won't even consider it as priority for this summer.
RW
CB
Creative midfield
That's in order for which position we need the most in my opinion.
RW
CB
Creative midfield
That's in order for which position we need the most in my opinion.
My absolute dream scenario:
DM/CM - Saul Niguez
RW - Sancho
LB - Theo Hernandez
CB - Hope that Axel gets over his injury issues
ST - Get a striker who is at his peak and wouldn't mind occupying a bench role, Ighalo is perfect for this, but I don't think he's in our plans beyond January.
DM/CM - Saul Niguez
RW - Sancho
LB - Theo Hernandez
CB - Hope that Axel gets over his injury issues
ST - Get a striker who is at his peak and wouldn't mind occupying a bench role, Ighalo is perfect for this, but I don't think he's in our plans beyond January.
Could only see us being interested in Saul if both Pogba left and he expressed a desire to leave Atletico which think is highly unlikely.
Think the LB situation is going to remain up in the air next season and my gut feeling is we get a young CB if we sell Rojo & Jones/Smalling.
Despite it leaving us short in the area would not expect a striker until next summer as can see a lack of options
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You won’t necessarily be found out as long as positioning is consistently good.
Players only need pace really to make up for poor positioning. It’s something older players regularly reference when speaking about the difference between them as mature players and younger ones. They didn’t need the pace because they identified the situations better with experience. Equally too much proactive defensive actioning can cause more problems than solutions. That said mobility isn’t ever really a disadvantage if you make a mistake it’s always handy to be able to correct it.
Zakaria is a good option and certainly has excellent ball skills for a DM his shooting isn’t really anything to write home about though. I would prefer him to Partey as he’s better defensively.
Koopmeiners would get destroyed in defensive transitions against teams with fast attackers in a high press. He was also a non entity against us especially at Old Trafford when we thrashed AZ 4-0 without either Pogba or Fernandes.
Good positioning might help in a possession based system but in a aggressive high press players like Koopmeiners become a liability due to their immobility due to the high risk approach. Koopmeiners would be a awful #6 in such a setup but would be better deployed further up the pitch with someone like Zakaria as DM who has the ability to dominate entire zones on his own and completely smother opponents.
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That’s not true. He’s dealt excellently with counter attacks all season. He’s also very press resistant and a very composed player.
He wasn’t a non entity he was the only midfielder making consistently good pass selections against a far superior side. Don’t confuse a team performance with an individuals you’re better than that.
Would you argue Fernandes is a terrible player after a poor performance against Norwich at the weekend? Or would you look at an entire session?
I don’t see where you have this idea of Koopmeiners as not being a mobile DM? He’s not a quick as Zakaria but he still moves around very effectively and his positioning is excellent. I’m not sure if you’re mixing up pace with mobility as I wouldn’t describe him as immobile at all.
I agree however that Koopmeiners has more transferable skills into CM than Zakaria. Which is also one of the reasons I prefer him. I think he’d work excellently in a double pivot or any variation of 3 man midfield.
Honestly I’d be really happy with either of them but I think Koopmeiners offers more than Zakaria.
I don't know. Our major problem has been creativity trying to break down sides that sit deep. We have Pogba and Bruno using their passing ability to do this and if one of them gets injured, I feel we would need to replace their creativity which I don't think any of Lingard Pereira Mata Fred Mctominay Zakaria or Partey have in their locker. And yet we also need a DM because we have only Matic who is ageing.
I've said it before but we can kill two birds with one stone if we can find a creative DM like Carrick or a DM that can also play as an 8 and is creative enough for us not to miss Pogba or Bruno if one of them is out
We have Jimmy Garner who will provide everything that Koopmeiners does. The same Garner who started in midfield against Koopmeiners when we won 4-0.
Sandro Tonali.
Dylan Levitt is more similar to Koopmeiners in style of play.
Don't see why he is not rated higher at the club. 3 best passer behind PP and Bruno.
We aren`t signing both a back up no10 and a DM this window it will be one or the other plus a RW and if Smalling/Jones/Rojo leave a CB. In my opinion a back up no10 is more important especially with Gomes leaving. Matic may be ageing but he`s still a top class DM with one more very good season left if managed correctly(one full game a week max) and we have the perfect rotation options in McTominay and Fred depending on the opposition we face and possibly one of Garner/Levitt if we dont let both go out on loan. One injury to Bruno and we are screwed. His back ups are a past it Mata and Lingard/Pereira who are the worst attackers in the top 10. Look at the game vs Norwich if we had Grealish/VDB from the bench we`d have won the game by the 70th minute.
Levitt and Garner both are very good young players in a deeper role and have excellent potential as far as passing out from a deeper role. It would be bad planning to sign Koopmeiners when I believe both our youngsters can at the very least reach the AZ players potential which isn't even very high to begin with.
Yeah other players like that I know of are Koopmeiners, Marc Roca, Kalvin Phillips and Papa Gueye. Tonali would be the most proven but he's off to inter
Sancho will provide creativity too. What some of you're failing to understand IMO is that in a high press which Solskjaer favours, the DM doesn't need to create but rather provide defensive balance due to the high risk approach where we will create overloads all over. if one of Pogba or Fernandes isn't there then you still might have the possibility of Sancho and one other. Creativity can come from several positions and even the CBs and fullbacks will be there to create and can offer creativity in such a style. It's far more important to have defensive balance.
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I wouldn’t say Garner is the same as him you’ve either not watched Koopmeiners enough or not watched Garner enough.
Passing wise yeah I’d agree Levitt is similar in that sense. I think it’s hard to say he’s the 3rd best passer though as he’s not been tested yet in the first team.
Would it not also be bad planning then to sign any young CDM if we have Garner and Levitt by that logic? If they are good enough in your eyes?
I also think you’re being incredibly disparaging of a player you know very little about. Just because you like Zakaria it doesn’t meant any other option isn’t good and not of a good level.
I’m confident in the coming years Koopmeiners will be starting at a bigger club. I think it’s arrogant to be so dismissive of what is clearly an excellent player who is just different to your personal preference.
You say we favour a high press but consistently our defence has been set up to defend deeper and break on the counter this season. We press the ball but not with the same level of intensity as Liverpool or Borussia Mon. What has consistently happened is an attempt to slow down the opponents attacking transition and then break if possible.
Our CBs aren’t currently creating and our fullbacks while serviceable aren’t focussed on attacking.
You can provide defensive balance and also be a good passer the two are not mutually exclusive. Koopmeiners can do this.
Not confirmed yet, but most likely either Inter or Juve. Still, we should move heaven and earth for him if he is gettable.
Watch the U23 games. His passing technique is fairly decent, unlike most of our players.
No wobbly passes, accurate, efficient, long/short.
I never said Garner was the same as him. But Garner has all the qualities that Koopmeiners has. It doesn't make him the same.
I've also explained how I believe Solskjaer wants to play and made a long winded post explaining his Molde style which is stylistically similar to Klopp and Rose. It's not about what we want to play but rather how he (Ole) wants to play but he doesn't have all the pieces to the puzzle hence having to make do with what he has at his disposal. Playing a high press with our CBs along with Matic would be suicide.
I prefer Zakaria but also acknowledge people who have a preference for Partey and a few others.
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I’ll have a look at one today, is there a game you’d recommend? I’ll be honest I’ve been more lax on watching the U23s this season.
Your opening statement is contradictory. You say they have all the qualities of one another but now are saying they aren’t the same? Just admit you don’t know as much about Koopmeiners. It’s not a problem but now you’re digging holes when it’s easier just say you prefer Zakaria and of your limited experience of Koopmeiners (possibly a YouTube compilation) you don’t want him.
Garner is not the same with all the qualities of Koopmeiners can you explain to me what qualities you believe Garner has that match Koopmeiners? How is Garner on free kicks, penalties, long balls, progressive passes, captaining a side, positioning, style, composure etc.
Give me good analysis of both players ideally stats too and I’ll consider your argument otherwise I just think you don’t know a lot about either Garner or Koop or potentially both.
We aren’t Molde.