On his day everything goes through him
Which do we need more? DM or Back up creative midfielder
- Thread starter jamesjimmybyrondean
- Start date
Being creative is not running a game.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 19,062
- Supports
️
Ok I’ll bite.
What do you think running a game is?
I’d class it as helping the team win. Pogba does that.
This just in creative footballers don’t run games.
What do you think running a game is then?
I think they are both positions where a top club, with good scouting, could pick up both players for good prices.
A player like Gueye when he came over to the PL can be found for cheap. Or even Ndidi when he came to Leicester. Kalvin Phillips is a top DM talent I think and is the type of player to balance our midfield, although if Leeds come up they wouldn’t sell to us. He’s also a very good passer too.
A player like Gueye when he came over to the PL can be found for cheap. Or even Ndidi when he came to Leicester. Kalvin Phillips is a top DM talent I think and is the type of player to balance our midfield, although if Leeds come up they wouldn’t sell to us. He’s also a very good passer too.
Ok I’ll bite.
What do you think running a game is?
I’d class it as helping the team win. Pogba does that.
This just in creative footballers don’t run games.
What do you think running a game is then?
Loads of smilies when you're clearly wrong is not good look.
Roy Keane, Luka Modric, Pirlo etc are players who run games.
They control the tempo and flow from CM and are always in the right position to receive and recycle the ball.
This is something Pogba for all his brilliance doesn't do.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 19,062
- Supports
- ️
Clearly wrong? I like the confidence I hope we can have a good debate on this.
I will debate this based on your definition of the term because we may just have different definitions of controlling or running a game. It’s only fair that you decide the definition.
Can you evidence what you feel is a game controlling performance? Any example of a time you feel those players controlled would be helpful for me to understand your specific view on the term.
Would you class a game winning performance as control? In terms of forcing a result where without you it would be a loss?
You make comment about control being about positioning and recycling. So am I to assume you don’t think Pogba can be in the right position to receive and recycle the ball? I would argue in the 30 minutes he was on the pitch he did exactly that and more.
You don’t just have to sit deep to have control. He got on the ball, created chances, recycled when appropriate and got us the penalty.
If that is someone with no control over the tempo of a game, someone not running the game to suit our team then and that’s your opinion then that’s fine but I think I need your definition before saying you’re wrong (you may be right based on your interpretation)
Its a well known phrase in football and it means performing a specific role as a CM.
You seem to be confusing running or controlling a game with contributing to a result by creating chances.
Pogba does not control the tempo or flow of a game from the middle of the field like Keane or Pirlo would have done, for example. He's more of an attack minded player who'll drift left or right as the mood takes him. He was on the wing for the penalty.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 19,062
- Supports
- ️
I am genuinely trying to understand your definition of it. I know the phrase well but there are several interpretations of it and unless you can explain your interpretation of it it’s hard to debate if we aren’t debating on a agreed term.
So running a game in your eyes is not about creating chances or goals? Someone creating goals isn’t running or controlling a game?
Keane and Pirlo are both very different players so can you explain why you feel they controlled a game and Pogba cannot.
What do Keane and Pirlo do that Pogba is incapable of doing?
Is it your belief that to control the modern game and impose your tempo on the game you have to remain central at all times? Can you not control a game by working around the length and breadth of the midfield?
Can you give me an example of a game that you feel was a good example of a controlling midfield performance perhaps from Pirlo and Keane?
Apologies for the questions but I’m trying to get a clear idea of your definition.
It's about setting the tempo and creating space. Not creating chances.
Ok I’ll bite.
What do you think running a game is?
I’d class it as helping the team win. Pogba does that.
This just in creative footballers don’t run games.
What do you think running a game is then?
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 19,062
- Supports
- ️
So Paul Pogba doesn’t set tempo or change the speed of a game or its intensity?
He doesn’t create space for other players to work with?
Not really. He's pretty much always direct and isn't good at making space, often the opposite.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 19,062
- Supports
- ️
So coming on with 30mins left and making us more attacking and faster in our build up isn’t changing tempo?
Pogba doesn’t draw other opponents to him creating space?
Being more direct is not about tempo. Drawing players is in only the most basic way for a midfielder to make space, there needs to be a lot more. Just look at what xavi did for example. It's night and day.
RW > CB > CDM > NO.9
Assuming Pogba stays.
Assuming Pogba stays.
Again your confusing impacting and influencing the result with what people are taking about when the say running or controlling the game.
If you've seen Pirlo or Keane or Modric play the difference should be obvious.
These are traditional midfielders who are usually behind the ball and positionally disciplined. They get and give the ball, speed up or slow down the tempo as needed and yes control the game from the middle.
These types of players are going from the game though and perhaps as the game has seemingly moved on people shouldn't expect a modern midfielder to do this anymore.
Its more of a collective thing now with three players sharing roles.
With the likes of Pogba and Bruno in the team you need someone who will sit behind them, protecting the back four.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 19,062
- Supports
- ️
But being direct changes the tempo does it not? It makes things a lot quicker speeds up transitions which satisfies the criteria of dictating tempo. Changing the speed at which the game is played.
So you agree Pogba does make space? Which satisfies the second criteria.
I agree Xavi also dictated tempo and controlled games. Pogba doesn’t have to be identical to him to still change the speed of play and create space for others. By your definition he controls games.
I am saying that it isn’t obvious so I’d appreciate your explicit explanation.
Assume I’m an idiot.
So they have to be in a deep midfield position? Modric regularly roamed forward as did Keane until he was pushed back for Scholes.
My understanding of your criteria for a controller or tempo dictator is the following. Please correct any points I make you disagree with:
- Play behind the with attacking options all in front of them
- Play central mainly
- Will receive and pass the ball to others sometimes safely other times forward to progress attacks
So would you say Matic is the tempo dictator? Modric has players deeper than him for example?
Sancho ticks so many boxes as he's not only capable on the right but also inside. He could easily play as an advanced central midfielder if he was needed to cover injuries.
If Sancho is too expensive then Grealish offers similar but without the consistent end product. As far as right forwards go, Adama Traore is the next best option. He's a game changer and it's only a matter of time before a bigger club buys him.
There's isn't an obvious CDM to buy. Matic, Fred and McTominay are a reasonable trio. When Matic goes a Zakaria or Soumare will have another season under their belt and could be an obvious replacement.
If Sancho is too expensive then Grealish offers similar but without the consistent end product. As far as right forwards go, Adama Traore is the next best option. He's a game changer and it's only a matter of time before a bigger club buys him.
There's isn't an obvious CDM to buy. Matic, Fred and McTominay are a reasonable trio. When Matic goes a Zakaria or Soumare will have another season under their belt and could be an obvious replacement.
Sancho solves quite a few squad problems I think, because I feel if one or even two of Sancho, Pogba and Bruno are out for a period, we could scrape through creatively.
——————Martial———————
Rashford—Sancho—Greenwood
————Fred——-Matic—————
Not ideal but gives us options.
Hence I think we need the below, in that order.
RW
CB
CM
——————Martial———————
Rashford—Sancho—Greenwood
————Fred——-Matic—————
Not ideal but gives us options.
Hence I think we need the below, in that order.
RW
CB
CM
Yeah well I'm at a father's day BBQ so not going to continue the convo I'm afraid.
If you're interested in the history of positions and formations in football and how they've changed over time etc then Jonathan Wilson has some books and many articles on the subject.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 19,062
- Supports
- ️
It’s a shame you’ve not been able to clarify this viewpoint so I hope you will revisit to answer the last few questions.
Enjoy your BBQ!
I’ll have a look at those thanks for the recommendation.
We have had a problem against teams that park the bus for some time. Its our achilles heel. Now if we have a full strenght team its ok
Fred-Matic-Pogba
Fred-Matic-Bruno
Fred-Pogba-Bruno
Matic-Pogba-Bruno
This is good. But I think if Matic or Pogba or Bruno is injured then we are light in that area. And yes Mou set up a certain way and we were useless. Thats because Mcguire had to do all the creating and there was no link in midfield and also the right wing was stuffed. Fred has been really good recently and we probably should have started Matic with him.
Anyway the long term replacement of Matic has been a long time consideration. Actually since the moment he arrived at the club. His holding of the ball and composure is his biggest asset vs the rough and tumble energy of Fred/Mctominay. We need someone of that ilk and not simply a destroyer.
Its important and not a knee jerk consideration.
Last edited:
What they mean is that there is someone who provides the following
1. Is incredibly technically gifted so that they're the best at keeping possession
2. Are almost always supplying the team with passes
3. Are disciplined in position
Examples: Xavi, Scholes, Modric, Pirlo, Xabi, Carrick, etc...
They don't necessarily have to be the furthest back. For example, Modric isn't the furthest back when paired with Casamiro. Xavi wasn't the furthest back as he had Busquets. However, it's also possible that they are the furthest back like Pirlo with Juve, and Carrick in his later years with United.
Pogba, who is my favorite player and who I believe has been our best player, is a player that has the quality to do that job, but he's not as disciplined. He's not satisfied just being deep or staying there. He likes to get forward and join in the attack (which is fine). Pogba usually does this role as a secondary part of his job. When he was with Juve, Pirlo was the main one providing that, but Pogba helped him. Simultaneously, Pogba provided some moments of magic to help the team and Vidal helped by being the a source of energy (both in attack and defense). Pogba is doing more of an Iniesta role, although with his own style.
United don't necessarily need this player. You can choose between that kind of player and a DM. A DM is more common as this Xavi type of player is more rare. They're usually in contention for best midfielder of their generation.
I was kind of hoping we would try to transform Angel Gomes into this kind of player instead of being a #10, but he's at a crossroads of whether or not he'll even make it. I think only Nicky Butt views him in this manner, and Ole sees him more as an attacker.
Point is, we don't have this kind of player at United. Matic is a poor man's Carrick without the legs and without the passing quality of Carrick.
We have 3 defensive minded midfielders in Matic, Fred and Mctominay. And two creative ones in Pogba and Bruno. I think considering 75% of the opposition play a low block against us, we need a playmaker more. Snap Grealish up if available. Then replace Matic with a top Carrick-esque midfielder next year.
Matic does a good job but agree. He doesn't have the legs to last a season. He also doesn't have the legs against some teams in a more open game. We need strengthening here as neither Fred nor Mctominay fit this role. They are important squad members but if Matic retires next year we are very short of quality options again.
https://ibb.co/0h92Hv5
This is the reason we were disconnected in midfield and I very much doubt Matic could've done anything about it. Mourinho wanted us to play through the wings because he knew our fullbacks are not confident and in sync with the wide forwards. He was right.
When the Tottenham players tired themselves in the second half we begun pushing them hard through the middle and things started clicking a bit more. But starting a slower (than McT or Fred) Matic wouldn't have helped. He would have been pressed, if he lost the ball in those critical areas, we would've been very vulnerable.
I might even consider making CB the second priority and dropping creative midfielder to third place. I can also understand the point of view of people who say they any creative mid will just be squad options and not get much game time with Pogba & Bruno.
Last edited:
Hate to say it but think you may have to move some of those upcoming window signings to the next one. There seems to be a real lack of links to players in those other priority positions which I think is quite telling. Ole needs to realise that we need a player to control things and protect the back four to allow Pogba & Bruno to fully flourish because Matic hasn't got the mobility for it.
Last edited:
Saying Matic wouldnt have helped is pushing it a bit. Matic is much much better at retaining and recycling possessiom when pressured than the other 2. Yes Spurs tired later but it sure helped with the personnel we then had on the pitch by then.
Anyway its was the case pre-Covid that Matic helped us a lot against teams parking the bus. We will never know in this game 1st half. Ole made his selections and I understand why. With hindsight however he got out-thought 1st half. If he had his time over I wonder if he would have gone with Fred-Mctominay-James again because it was the obvious call to change this at half time.
Edit: regarding Spurs specific tactics, I did feel that Bruno should have dropped deeper to recieve balls from our CB's.
Last edited:
I've seen quite a few posters wanting Partey and he's looked decent when I've seen him but it's been a while, however he has a low release clause if I recall correctly so it's odd that Arsenal are the only team I've seen linked with him heavily recently.
Yeah I can't deny that isn't worrying
DM....thread
You make a very good point about us playing much more opposition's that play a low block. We saw what happened when Pogba was the only creative midfielder last season and we saw the first half in the recent Tottenham game when Bruno was the only creative midfielder. One of them simply isn't enough to break down a solid low block.
I worry what will happen if one of Bruno or Pogba gets injured especially given the fact that we will encounter more sides that sit deep during the period of their injury. We would then start crying out for the need of another creative midfielder again because Bruno or Pogba(whoever is the uninjured one) would not be enough creativity to break down solid low blocks.
The Tottenham game for example where we started with Mctomimay Fred and Bruno. We struggled in midfield creatively and that only changed when Pogba was introduced. But if Pogba was injured what would we have done? This may prove that players like VdB or Grealish are needed in games like the Tottenham one where Pogba was rotated. A VdB Fred and Bruno midfield for example would not have struggled creatively to break them down while Pogba would have sat there comfortably on the bench rather than being called upon to save the game
Partey and Atleti are reported to be in contract talks and possibly something could happen once the season is over.
Personally I was hoping for Tonali, Camavinga, Zakaria etc but I can't see the first two happening as of now.
The only thing we need more than CDM is a RW/RM. If we bring Sancho we must prioritize CDM next.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 19,062
- Supports
- ️
Thank you for being the first person to state your criteria. Makes this discussion is much easier because you’ve given me 3 things you believe must be fulfilled that are tangible. Really good clear post.
So based on your criteria I would say Pogba absolutely hits the first two points. He is technically more than capable of doing this and is a constant supplier of quality passes particularly the deeper long passes. He’s been surrounded by lower quality players at United compared to Juve and France which I believe has severely impacted people’s views of him.
Now on your third point I would say this is where by your definition I’m not sure in our current United team we could say he’s a controller. However I don’t think it’s because Pogba cannot be disciplined. His performances in the World Cup are clear evidence of this I just suspect Ole is asking him to do an awful lot more than this because as you alluded to Pogba can do much more than just sit deep and spray passes.
I think in our side he is the controller of the game and dictator of tempo but not based on the traditional sense of the role. I think that role as you describe it is dying out a little especially within the double pivot.
His range of passing is for me the best at United since Scholes (yup I think he’s better than Carrick at the deep balls) but I think because he can offer technically so much more than the traditional sitting recycler of play people feel he can’t do that role.
He only speeds up the game, thats not the same as controlling it.
He is not close to good enough to make space, he only does it in the most basic way a few times a game. The difference between him and an actual midfield general is night and day. What he does to make space everyone does.
If Rashford scored his chance before the water break, would Ole have been out-thought? Spurs scored from their one-and-a-half chance. We needed more. Whether that was due to luck, skill or tactics, I can't say.
As for Matic, I completely agree that he is more capable under pressure but will always tire much quicker and is in general slower and riskier if he loses the ball.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2015
- Messages
- 19,062
- Supports
- ️
It’s simply not true though that all he does is speed up the game. The capability and proficiency to do so does not mean it’s all he does I think it’s lazy to label him as such.
My previous post I think highlights my view that he is capable of control but is asked to do much more historically due to our poorer quality.
I’d fundamentally disagree with your opinion about making space. He gets on the ball more than most CMs in world football and that would be impossible without making yourself an option in space. He also regularly drags players out of position to him engages in one twos and drops deep when space is constricted.
Spot on mate but Ole will keep faith in Matic for another season by the looks of it
Simply put, we need both.
Forget other areas of concern (RW and CF), this is a thread based on whether we need more midfielders. And the answer is yes.
Lingard is useless
Periera is useless
Gomes has contract issue
Garner needs a loan for development
McTom is squad worthy
Fred is squad worthy
Matic is squad worthy (will be used for this season, but not further)
Fernandes is squad worthy
Pogba is squad worthy (but have long term concerns regarding contract/commitment)
What we have lacked for years across the squad is competition for places and some real quality throughout. We have seen how injuries effect us and we resort to playing Periera as a CDM, which turned out to be pretty disastrous. Im not playing Periera as such, but he's not good enough to be playing there, we were forced into it by having no depth throughout the squad.
We are likely to play 3 midfielders.
Whether we play a double or a single pivot, we have depth issue's.
If we have 2 injuries we are over relying on Matic for CDM and if one of Pogba or Fernandes gets injured/suspended we are pretty light for the more advanced midfield role.
We never seem to "phase" players out when they are in decline, we just dont sign anyone till they're gone and then struggle. This is why we need a DM now, to phase Matic out and provide quality competition against Fred/McTom.
Players will improve with better players around them.
Fernandes for example, is NEVER going to think Lingard or Periera and genuinely take his place, whereas if we signed a Grealish or a Van Der Beek he'd think twice and stay on form. Football is more than application, it's about mentality and desire as well. Thats what we lack.
We need both.
Forget other areas of concern (RW and CF), this is a thread based on whether we need more midfielders. And the answer is yes.
Lingard is useless
Periera is useless
Gomes has contract issue
Garner needs a loan for development
McTom is squad worthy
Fred is squad worthy
Matic is squad worthy (will be used for this season, but not further)
Fernandes is squad worthy
Pogba is squad worthy (but have long term concerns regarding contract/commitment)
What we have lacked for years across the squad is competition for places and some real quality throughout. We have seen how injuries effect us and we resort to playing Periera as a CDM, which turned out to be pretty disastrous. Im not playing Periera as such, but he's not good enough to be playing there, we were forced into it by having no depth throughout the squad.
We are likely to play 3 midfielders.
Whether we play a double or a single pivot, we have depth issue's.
If we have 2 injuries we are over relying on Matic for CDM and if one of Pogba or Fernandes gets injured/suspended we are pretty light for the more advanced midfield role.
We never seem to "phase" players out when they are in decline, we just dont sign anyone till they're gone and then struggle. This is why we need a DM now, to phase Matic out and provide quality competition against Fred/McTom.
Players will improve with better players around them.
Fernandes for example, is NEVER going to think Lingard or Periera and genuinely take his place, whereas if we signed a Grealish or a Van Der Beek he'd think twice and stay on form. Football is more than application, it's about mentality and desire as well. Thats what we lack.
We need both.