Where does Pogba fit in?

jamesjimmybyrondean said:
.... Bruno....

Pogba...Fred/Mctominay

Whether this midfield works or not, you're definitely going to see us try out
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Could be and I'd be delighted to see Bruno and Pogba rip it up together, maybe against teams in the bottom 6 it will happen.

I just don't think we are strong enough defensively to accommodate both of them. One of the main reasons we've been solid defensively is down to Fred's incredible form and box to box energy, and the experienced streetwise positional sense of Matic to mop things up next to him. Without those two building a barrier infront of the defence, I think Lindelof might get targeted again by powerful opposition forwards, even though he's been playing very well also lately. But against teams in the top half of the table, I don't think defensively we would cope with both Bruno and Pogba in a midfield 3.
 
Champagne Football said:
Could be and I'd be delighted to see Bruno and Pogba rip it up together, maybe against teams in the bottom 6 it will happen.

I just don't think we are strong enough defensively to accommodate both of them. One of the main reasons we've been solid defensively is down to Fred's incredible form and box to box energy, and the experienced streetwise positional sense of Matic to mop things up next to him. Without those two building a barrier infront of the defence, I think Lindelof might get targeted again by powerful opposition forwards, even though he's been playing very well also lately. But against teams in the top half of the table, I don't think defensively we would cope with both Bruno and Pogba in a midfield 3.
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The combination of Pogba-McTominay-Lingard/Pereira happened from the first game of the season, against Chelsea - not cannon fodder. As disappointed as you were by that composition, Solskjaer continued with it until he was forced into a change with Pogba’s injury.

Sure, after Matic was initially brought into the team as his replacement, Fred established himself in the side. Then, when McTominay got injured Matic also established himself in the lineup at the second time of asking. I think it’s fair to say that both have done well and will be held in higher regard by the manager now than they were coming into this season.

It would have been interesting to see Solskjaer’s team selections from where we left off with McTominay back and Pogba on the way. At this point, we can’t be sure what the pecking order would have been or is. But you seem to be very confident you know, for some reason? Any talk of how well the others have done recently can be countered with the fact that when all four were available Pogba was a first-choice selection. He is also by far the biggest name, the most expensive asset and the highest-quality individual in that group. Although, as I said, no-one can be sure because the suspension of play stopped us from finding out, I would think it more likely that, if he’s still in the squad when everything starts back up, Pogba will be restored to the starting eleven. And not for games against the weakest teams in the league or to rest Fernandes - as a clear first choice option for one of those central midfield roles.

Although I would agree that our first choice pairing at the beginning of the season wasn’t quite up to scratch, the reason for that is because Pogba was being far too careless in possession. Defensively, there was no issue with either player. Our biggest issue in that respect was with the structure of our front four - the quartet constantly lost balance and took themselves out of the game by allowing the opposition to progress forward through full backs and the rest of the side had to adjust and attempt to stem the advancement and regain some form of control. In fact, Pogba in particular at the start of the season was covering across to help the full back more than any other player - with both Maguire and McTominay pushing over and allowing Shaw to challenge the opposition right back or confronting the player himself, respectively, and Lindelof scared of moving out to support on the right side.

The main reason we have been solid is because Rashford has been injured. For almost the entire season he has been free from the task - typically and naturally given to the wide attacking player - of tracking the full back on his side. This greatly contributed to and exacerbated the problem I have just described in my previous paragraph. Without a free role being afforded to one of our wide players in conjunction with the team pressing calming down a bit we are harder to play through. We settle into a much more secure shape much more often.

Pogba’s lack of proficiency in defending generally is often massively overstated here. He is not a liability, he is a willing defender but is not the kind of player who excels defensively - you don’t have him in that position, or in the team generally, for that. And that is the case in many sides both currently and historically - for every side that uses a more combative player alongside or closest to a holding player there is another that uses a player who excels more on the ball. Pogba operating there is not dissimilar to the likes of Scholes, Modric, Dembele, Eriksen, Kroos, Xavi, Arthur, Rabiot, Rosicky, Arteta, Edu, Cazorla, Fabregas, Pizarro, Toure, Banega, Verratti, Thiago, Gundogan or Sahin playing in that position. And not for select games, easy games, rotation purposes or anything like that - as bona fide starters in that role, selected for all manner of opposition and used consistently. The idea of using Pogba behind Fernandes with one other is in no way an unprecedented way to set up a midfield or team. There is nothing unconventional or experimental about it.

Posters who are concerned about our defensive solidity in such a set up rarely discuss or acknowledge the problems that using another one of our options there could cause or compound. We certainly want to be solid defensively but we also want to be able to effectively build the play and break other sides down. We also most definitely want to challenge for honours and be successful again, and that means the onus being on us to go and win games. Predominantly, we will be expected to be proactive and take the game to our opponents. I think that all of Matic, Fred and McTominay have certain good qualities when we are in possession, but all offer considerably less than Pogba in that sense.

I don’t think anyone can argue that Pogba and Bruno are our two best midfield players. I don’t think they are a perfect pairing and I don’t see any of the other three midfielders as a perfect compliment to the two of them either. My concern would be with their shared inclination for speculative passes - both are very positive players who can be relentlessly forward-thinking. They can force it, and will play risky passes and they won’t always come off. Pogba can make it work, positionally, as although his best position is probably as the most advanced midfielder with the most freedom to attack in a three - essentially the same as or equivalent to where/ how we have been using Fernandes - he does also thrive from the role in support of that more advanced player.

Ideally, as a pairing they would be best combined with someone who is safe and stable in their passing and positioning to offset the natural tendencies of both, and in truth we don’t have a player of those qualities. A set up can be perfectly good and can be your team’s best without being perfect though. I would make do with any of Matic, Fred and McTominay as the third midfielder as opposed to using any two at the expense of one of our two more creative guys, as I believe you gain more overall from having both Pogba and Bruno playing rather than two of our three more conservative, ordinary players. It is definitely in United’s interest to get both players firing on the pitch together, so I think it’s basically a certainty that we try this if Pogba is still here when a ball is next kicked.
 
sherrinford said:
The combination of Pogba-McTominay-Lingard/Pereira happened from the first game of the season, against Chelsea - not cannon fodder. As disappointed as you were by that composition, Solskjaer continued with it until he was forced into a change with Pogba’s injury.
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Pogba started off well in the PL opener against a woeful Chelsea. In the next game against Wolves, things were going OK until Pogba grabbed the ball off designated peno taker Rashford to miss a crucial chance to win the game. Suddenly the doom and gloom returns around the club with Pogba ignoring Ole's orders to steal the ball for the crucial peno. In the next game away to Palace, Pogba gives another half arsed performance and then loses possession in midfield leading to Palace scoring the winner. Pogba is clearly unhappy but of course will never take responsibility for crap performances, it's always the teams fault in his head. Then next game Pogba is having a shocker away to Southampton before moving into the No. 10 position late in the game where he provides an assist leading to an equaliser against a team that everyone else is thumping. So Pogba gets his injury and we have to endure months of listening to his agent and his brother ridiculing the club. In steps Bruno in January and he proves that the team is nowhere near as bad as Pogba and his agent suggest, and fans start to wonder why Pogba could never have even had half the impact Bruno has had in a short space of time.

I just believe if it's not broken then don't fix it. I don't think Ole has much time for Pogba anymore. He clearly cannot be trusted on or off the pitch. His ego is too big fir the club. Fred and Bruno are the first names on the team sheet. Matic also is so important to our current system. I just don't see where Pogba fits in, and I think the club are absolutely desperate to get rid of him at this point, even if they are saying otherwise. But Pogba can still have a role to play in the remaining PL fixture that will probably kick off again around August/September if he's not gone already by then.
 
When we have 2 of the best creative midfielder around, just play them together. I mean, if Barca can play Xavi+Ineista+Busquet together and able to form the best midfield trio in the decade/century, why can't we try to play Pogba+Bruno+Fred together? Yes they are not strong defensively, but neither was Barca trio.
 
RedRonaldo said:
When we have 2 of the best creative midfielder around, just play them together. I mean, if Barca can play Xavi+Ineista+Busquet together and able to form the best midfield trio in the decade/century, why can't we try to play Pogba+Bruno+Fred together? Yes they are not strong defensively, but neither was Barca trio.
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Busquest was much better than Fred in CDM role. If we want to play like Barca, we should sign a CDM like Partey.
And Barca had Puyol and Pique as their CB.
 
Champagne Football said:
Pogba started off well in the PL opener against a woeful Chelsea. In the next game against Wolves, things were going OK until Pogba grabbed the ball off designated peno taker Rashford to miss a crucial chance to win the game. Suddenly the doom and gloom returns around the club with Pogba ignoring Ole's orders to steal the ball for the crucial peno. In the next game away to Palace, Pogba gives another half arsed performance and then loses possession in midfield leading to Palace scoring the winner. Pogba is clearly unhappy but of course will never take responsibility for crap performances, it's always the teams fault in his head. Then next game Pogba is having a shocker away to Southampton before moving into the No. 10 position late in the game where he provides an assist leading to an equaliser against a team that everyone else is thumping. So Pogba gets his injury and we have to endure months of listening to his agent and his brother ridiculing the club. In steps Bruno in January and he proves that the team is nowhere near as bad as Pogba and his agent suggest, and fans start to wonder why Pogba could never have even had half the impact Bruno has had in a short space of time.

I just believe if it's not broken then don't fix it. I don't think Ole has much time for Pogba anymore. He clearly cannot be trusted on or off the pitch. His ego is too big fir the club. Fred and Bruno are the first names on the team sheet. Matic also is so important to our current system. I just don't see where Pogba fits in, and I think the club are absolutely desperate to get rid of him at this point, even if they are saying otherwise. But Pogba can still have a role to play in the remaining PL fixture that will probably kick off again around August/September if he's not gone already by then.
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None of this is true
 
reddevilchennai said:
Busquest was much better than Fred in CDM role. If we want to play like Barca, we should sign a CDM like Partey.
And Barca had Puyol and Pique as their CB.
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Busquet was a better player but he was not particular strong defensively. Xavi+Inesta+Busquet is not particular strong in defence either.
 
Champagne Football said:
Pogba started off well in the PL opener against a woeful Chelsea. In the next game against Wolves, things were going OK until Pogba grabbed the ball off designated peno taker Rashford to miss a crucial chance to win the game. Suddenly the doom and gloom returns around the club with Pogba ignoring Ole's orders to steal the ball for the crucial peno. In the next game away to Palace, Pogba gives another half arsed performance and then loses possession in midfield leading to Palace scoring the winner. Pogba is clearly unhappy but of course will never take responsibility for crap performances, it's always the teams fault in his head. Then next game Pogba is having a shocker away to Southampton before moving into the No. 10 position late in the game where he provides an assist leading to an equaliser against a team that everyone else is thumping. So Pogba gets his injury and we have to endure months of listening to his agent and his brother ridiculing the club. In steps Bruno in January and he proves that the team is nowhere near as bad as Pogba and his agent suggest, and fans start to wonder why Pogba could never have even had half the impact Bruno has had in a short space of time.

I just believe if it's not broken then don't fix it. I don't think Ole has much time for Pogba anymore. He clearly cannot be trusted on or off the pitch. His ego is too big fir the club. Fred and Bruno are the first names on the team sheet. Matic also is so important to our current system. I just don't see where Pogba fits in, and I think the club are absolutely desperate to get rid of him at this point, even if they are saying otherwise. But Pogba can still have a role to play in the remaining PL fixture that will probably kick off again around August/September if he's not gone already by then.
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Contrary to what others are saying. I believe your comment is absolutely true.
 
I watched the World Cup replay on BBC today of France and Argentina and damn Pogba is insanely good at breaking the lines and through balls!

Absolute world class. I can’t wait to see him in a United shirt again with Bruno and a Rashford who is in form. We’ll have a very good side if we can keep them all fit next season.
 
I think it's better if he leave because the headlines are just too much for one player. But let's get this straight,Pogba was solid as the deep lying playmaker for France both attacking and defensive wise. He's played in that position a few games for us this season but hasn't played that well for us like he did in that position for France. My reason is because of how both he and France were committed and focused on winning. France off the ball movement too made it easier for him.

People talk about how Pogba was at his best when he played LCM in Oles initial winning streak but what happened when that streak was over? He turned to shit even while playing as the LCM I remember a video of him getting abused after a bad game. Pogba was also at his best as the deep lying playmaker for France and then when he played there for us,he wasn't as good. The pattern is clear. When the team is on form, Pogba is a beast whether he plays as the LCM or deep lying playmaker. But people expect him to be the one that carries the team when he clearly needs a functioning one to perform. And by functioning I mean a team with good off the ball movement. A team that is focused on winning. Juve, Oles initial winning streak and France is the type of functioning team Pogba thrives in. He's a good player but I think he should leave. So much headlines and analysis for one player
 
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Champagne Football said:
Pogba started off well in the PL opener against a woeful Chelsea. In the next game against Wolves, things were going OK until Pogba grabbed the ball off designated peno taker Rashford to miss a crucial chance to win the game. Suddenly the doom and gloom returns around the club with Pogba ignoring Ole's orders to steal the ball for the crucial peno. In the next game away to Palace, Pogba gives another half arsed performance and then loses possession in midfield leading to Palace scoring the winner. Pogba is clearly unhappy but of course will never take responsibility for crap performances, it's always the teams fault in his head. Then next game Pogba is having a shocker away to Southampton before moving into the No. 10 position late in the game where he provides an assist leading to an equaliser against a team that everyone else is thumping. So Pogba gets his injury and we have to endure months of listening to his agent and his brother ridiculing the club. In steps Bruno in January and he proves that the team is nowhere near as bad as Pogba and his agent suggest, and fans start to wonder why Pogba could never have even had half the impact Bruno has had in a short space of time.

I just believe if it's not broken then don't fix it. I don't think Ole has much time for Pogba anymore. He clearly cannot be trusted on or off the pitch. His ego is too big fir the club. Fred and Bruno are the first names on the team sheet. Matic also is so important to our current system. I just don't see where Pogba fits in, and I think the club are absolutely desperate to get rid of him at this point, even if they are saying otherwise. But Pogba can still have a role to play in the remaining PL fixture that will probably kick off again around August/September if he's not gone already by then.
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I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with the game-by-game breakdown and all the imaginative elements you’ve poured into it? Have you reimagined the Southampton game to fit your idea that Pogba can only play as the most attacking midfielder? Or to give some kind of tangible root to your assumption that Solskjaer will not use him in the two on his return?

There was a little reminder of Pogba’s quality in the two cameo appearances he made in his attempt to return from injury. He was probably the best player on the pitch on both occasions, providing an instant injection of class - similar, really, to the impact Fernandes had on the team when he came in.

There is nothing to suggest Ole doesn’t have much time for Pogba any more. He COULD have no time for him, but then he could also be kissing a giant poster of Pogba above his bed every night before he goes to sleep. We just don’t know. Pogba being injured makes it impossible to gauge where he stands currently. By extension, it is also impossible to state that Fred is or will be the first name on the team sheet. These are baseless opinions. You don’t see where Pogba fits in? Just because you would not reintroduce him into the starting eleven, that means Solskjaer won’t? Come on now. It is really, REALLY easy to envision him in the current team, regardless of our own opinions on what the lineup should be.
 
sherrinford said:
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with the game-by-game breakdown and all the imaginative elements you’ve poured into it? Have you reimagined the Southampton game to fit your idea that Pogba can only play as the most attacking midfielder? Or to give some kind of tangible root to your assumption that Solskjaer will not use him in the two on his return?
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The point I'm trying to make is that Pogba playing as a deeper midfielder in a midfield 3, has only ever been nothing short of a disaster at this club. Play him as a No. 10 and he's awesome. But Bruno appears to be playing that role now, and Fred and Matic behind him have been flawless in doing the basics, so I don't see Pogba getting in this Utd team, unless it's as a No. 10 when Bruno needs a rest.
 
Champagne Football said:
The point I'm trying to make is that Pogba playing as a deeper midfielder in a midfield 3, has only ever been nothing short of a disaster at this club. Play him as a No. 10 and he's awesome. But Bruno appears to be playing that role now, and Fred and Matic behind him have been flawless in doing the basics, so I don't see Pogba getting in this Utd team, unless it's as a No. 10 when Bruno needs a rest.
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That is just blatantly untrue. Pogba has certainly had bad games and bad periods but, as described by another poster above, there is no link between these and his position on the pitch. He has spent ample time in both roles over his time here (with perhaps a slight majority in the deeper role) and has had highs and lows in both. A great example is, again, mentioned above - when Solskjaer first took charge Pogba excelled playing in an advanced left-sided midfield role in a 4-3-3 and diamond setup, but his performances tailed off in line with the rest of the side, initially in the same formations and then in varying roles in varying setups as we attempted to stop the fall.

Even if it were true it would mean that even after being a disaster in that role for roughly half of Mourinho’s time here, Solskjaer still opted to start the season with him in that role and continue with that disaster until he was forced into changing it through injury, and then on attempting to get him back playing earlier in the season once again brought him on in that disastrously ill-suited position. Yet you can’t fathom the notion that he’ll be deployed there when it all starts up again?
 
OrcaFat said:
What? Busquets is great defensively.
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Sure he is great def midfielder, he average 2.6 tackle and 2 interception per game, is obviously a a very good stats. Fred career average 2.1 tackle and 1.3 interception. He is obviously not as good, but not that far behind defensively.

What I mean is, Pogba+Bruno+Fred isn't really that poor defensively when compared to Xavi+Iniesta+Busquet trio:

Career average:
Xavi (0.8 tackle, 0.9 interception)
Iniesta (1.4 tackle, 0.8 interception)
Busquet (2.6 tackle, 2 interception)
Total: 4.6 tackle, 3.7 interception

Pogba (1.9 tackle, 1 interception)
Bruno (1.5 tackle, 0.8 interception)
Fred (2.1 tackle, 1.3 interception)
Total: 5.5 tackle, 3.1 interception

Of course, you can argue offensively Barca trio is far better, theres simply no debate on that, but that's not my point.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Sure he is great def midfielder, he average 2.6 tackle and 2 interception per game, is obviously a a very good stats. Fred career average 2.1 tackle and 1.3 interception. He is obviously not as good, but not that far behind defensively.

What I mean is, Pogba+Bruno+Fred isn't really that poor defensively when compared to Xavi+Iniesta+Busquet trio:

Career average:
Xavi (0.8 tackle, 0.9 interception)
Iniesta (1.4 tackle, 0.8 interception)
Busquet (2.6 tackle, 2 interception)
Total: 4.6 tackle, 3.7 interception

Pogba (1.9 tackle, 1 interception)
Bruno (1.5 tackle, 0.8 interception)
Fred (2.1 tackle, 1.3 interception)
Total: 5.5 tackle, 3.1 interception

Of course, you can argue offensively Barca trio is far better, theres simply no debate on that, but that's not my point.
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Except you're forgetting that Barca literally had the ball for 95% of the match.
Unless they were kicking it off their own teammates, their need to perform defensively was substantially less than our own.
 
MattofManchester said:
Except you're forgetting that Barca literally had the ball for 95% of the match.
Unless they were kicking it off their own teammates, their need to perform defensively was substantially less than our own.
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Yes but my originally point is, having Pogba and Bruno, two of the most creative midfielder and best ball passer playing together, it could still work if we focus more on the attacking side and when the game is under controlled by us.
 
I will be interested to see the Pogba Podcast to gauge his attitude and see the questions that are posed to him.
I have noticed that David May is involved and he was vocal on the Paddy Crerand Show regarding his attitude on the pitch and his silence when the Pizza dough boy was running his mouth off.
I am pretty sure that none of this will be mentioned as MUTV shirk at the idea of controversy but maybe I will be proven wrong and Pogba will come out and say he wants to win trophies with the club for years to come.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Yes but my originally point is, having Pogba and Bruno, two of the most creative midfielder and best ball passer playing together, it could still work if we focus more on the attacking side and when the game is under controlled by us.
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I thought we get best result when we have 30% possession of the ball?
 
cyril C said:
I thought we get best result when we have 30% possession of the ball?
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Mourinho era was long gone. These days there's isn't any team that can consistently win trophies with only 30% possession of the ball. We surely are not inspiring ourself to be one.
 
I think he”ll leave this summer,unless Juve and Real decide to prioritise other signings.But if he stays then it will be a challenge to accommodate him and Fernandez in the same team.Obviously there’s the old adage that “great players can always find a way to play together”,but I think Fernandez will probably have to play in a slightly different way with Pogba in the team.

They can both play deeper or further forward,so I guess if one goes up the other will just have to drop deep and vice versa.I think both of them can play together,but we”ll have to wait and see if Pogba stays on for another season...
 
cyril C said:
Against Southampton?
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What are you asking me?

My point is that we struggled to break teams down because we didn't have a playmaker in the 10 position. Now, if you add Pogba as the 8, as well as Bruno as the 10, our creativity levels go up two fold and we start breaking down low blocks easier.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Mourinho era was long gone. These days there's isn't any team that can consistently win trophies with only 30% possession of the ball. We surely are not inspiring ourself to be one.
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Come on, even the Mourinho era win games with higher possession ratio.

We go deep against strong teams with a very low possession rate, and somehow we got great result.

But you can't repeat this against teams parking the bus, or teams OK with a draw and applying the same tactics against us. This is where we have trouble.

The point that I wanted to make, was that since Jan, Bruno has helped us unlocking this key, with a team much more capable in controlling the game WHILE also able to win.

The 2nd point that I wanted to make, while Pogba has that potential, he has failed to demonstrate it this season, refused to show it under Mourinho's last (half anyway) season, he showed that for about few games under Ole, then AWOL for the rest of last season.

So who do you want to trust?
 
cyril C said:
Come on, even the Mourinho era win games with higher possession ratio.

We go deep against strong teams with a very low possession rate, and somehow we got great result.

But you can't repeat this against teams parking the bus, or teams OK with a draw and applying the same tactics against us. This is where we have trouble.

The point that I wanted to make, was that since Jan, Bruno has helped us unlocking this key, with a team much more capable in controlling the game WHILE also able to win.

The 2nd point that I wanted to make, while Pogba has that potential, he has failed to demonstrate it this season, refused to show it under Mourinho's last (half anyway) season, he showed that for about few games under Ole, then AWOL for the rest of last season.

So who do you want to trust?
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What are you taking about? Pogba has been injured this season, and last season he was officially voted Premierleague team of the year, and has the best stats out of all players we have got, and probably out of all midfielders in the league too (other than De Bruyne). Yes he is not consistent throughout the season, but so are our whole team.
 
RedRonaldo said:
What are you taking about? Pogba has been injured this season, and last season he was officially voted Premier league team of the year, and has the best stats out of all players we have got, and probably out of all midfielders in the league too (other than De Bruyne). Yes he is not consistent throughout the season, but so are our whole team.
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Don't bother with these folks. Their hatred for Pogba paralyzes their eyes.
 
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