Where does Pogba fit in?



So Im on a United youtube marathon to deal with boredom and I happen to come across this clip. At 5:31 we are on the counter against arsenal 2-1 up and need to score another to secure the game. Pogba does magnificent to start the counter and run a large distance because of his awesome physique. He has rashford next to him who he can slip through as you would expect any midfielder with good decision making to do but instead he decides to shoot at goal???? Of course we still score because of Martial who was arrived late on the counter but his decision making in the process really annoys me. Why? Because he isnt thinking about the team but about himself getting on the scoresheet. Its a trait I dont like in midfielders.

I would say this clip summarizes the brilliance and frustration of his time here. There have been many situations were he has done this exact same thing in crucial moments but I just cant think of them now. I think for him to grow as a player he needs to focus more on taking a backseat and realizing that he doesn't need to score in games to be seen as a success. Any time I view this clip or others I always wonder why he needs to be on the score sheet instead of making the simple pass that secures the game. There has to be a connection between his decision making and maturity level. You compare it to bruno who takes a lot of risks like pogba but can bet he would have played it off to rash ford in the same scenario.

I think our midfeild options will be Bruno pogba and a combination of Fred/Mctominay. Looking forward to what Ole lines up with.
 
We should play a flat midfield 3 considering Bruno Fernandes is defensively hard working and it will allow us to get the attacking use of both Pogba & Bruno a turn at a time. We then also use a false 9 with the width of Greenwood and Rashford in a wider forward partnership. Our fullbacks are defensive aswell which can be useful for a centrally creative team.

*So we kind of have the attacking tactics of Liverpool and the midfield tactics of City.

Bruno - Fred- Pogba
Martial
Greenwood - Rashford​
 
I'm not sure this is a question that needs to be answered. Pogba is a free spirit footballer who can't be tasked with significant defensive responsibilities.

Bring in a truly world class defensive midfielder, an elite CB to partner with Maguire and Bruno and Paul can do whatever their imaginations can conjure up.
 
lex talionis said:
I'm not sure this is a question that needs to be answered. Pogba is a free spirit footballer who can't be tasked with significant defensive responsibilities.

Bring in a truly world class defensive midfielder, an elite CB to partner with Maguire and Bruno and Paul can do whatever their imaginations can conjure up.
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Yes! Let's try for the tenth time to find a way to make Pogba work.
 
KennyBurner said:


So Im on a United youtube marathon to deal with boredom and I happen to come across this clip. At 5:31 we are on the counter against arsenal 2-1 up and need to score another to secure the game. Pogba does magnificent to start the counter and run a large distance because of his awesome physique. He has rashford next to him who he can slip through as you would expect any midfielder with good decision making to do but instead he decides to shoot at goal???? Of course we still score because of Martial who was arrived late on the counter but his decision making in the process really annoys me. Why? Because he isnt thinking about the team but about himself getting on the scoresheet. Its a trait I dont like in midfielders.

I would say this clip summarizes the brilliance and frustration of his time here. There have been many situations were he has done this exact same thing in crucial moments but I just cant think of them now. I think for him to grow as a player he needs to focus more on taking a backseat and realizing that he doesn't need to score in games to be seen as a success. Any time I view this clip or others I always wonder why he needs to be on the score sheet instead of making the simple pass that secures the game. There has to be a connection between his decision making and maturity level. You compare it to bruno who takes a lot of risks like pogba but can bet he would have played it off to rash ford in the same scenario.

I think our midfeild options will be Bruno pogba and a combination of Fred/Mctominay. Looking forward to what Ole lines up with.
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There are a lot of justified criticisms about Pogba's game but to suggest he has an inherent trait of being selfish definitely doesn't apply to him :confused:

In that moment you're talking about, yeah it was a selfish shot, not a terrible choice because he was centre of the goal with defenders giving him the space but yeah he probably could have laid it off. However, for every one of these 'selfish' situations you're implying, he has 5-10 impressive moments of correct and quality passes/plays.

The problem with his decision making was being asked to play in a two with Lingard in front of him, where he has lots of defensive responsibility but also be the creative fulcrum, ball carrier and playmaker in the middle of the park, whilst picking the ball off his central defender's toes in lop sided formations.

The task now is how does OGS fit him in the team and how does he respond to it. For me, he should be playing alongside Fernandes, not 'behind' him with Fred holding behind them two. Against harder opposition, it'll be Pogba on the left dropping James/wide right place holder.
 
lex talionis said:
I'm not sure this is a question that needs to be answered. Pogba is a free spirit footballer who can't be tasked with significant defensive responsibilities.

Bring in a truly world class defensive midfielder, an elite CB to partner with Maguire and Bruno and Paul can do whatever their imaginations can conjure up.
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The key part that people keep deliberately igoring here is that Pogba's imagination will conjure up him going and playing somewhere else. He does not want to be here.

It's embarassing how people just cling to the idea this isn't the case. He has also shown he can only play reliably in the same position as Fernandes, who is definitely not going to be dropped.

Somehow I suspect playing for Juventus or Real Madrid will be slightly more appealing to Pogba than sitting on the bench here or lumbering about in defensive midfield where he is worse than useless half the time anyway.
 
criticalanalysis said:
There are a lot of justified criticisms about Pogba's game but to suggest he has an inherent trait of being selfish definitely doesn't apply to him :confused:

In that moment you're talking about, yeah it was a selfish shot, not a terrible choice because he was centre of the goal with defenders giving him the space but yeah he probably could have laid it off. However, for every one of these 'selfish' situations you're implying, he has 5-10 impressive moments of correct and quality passes/plays.

The problem with his decision making was being asked to play in a two with Lingard in front of him, where he has lots of defensive responsibility but also be the creative fulcrum, ball carrier and playmaker in the middle of the park, whilst picking the ball off his central defender's toes in lop sided formations.

The task now is how does OGS fit him in the team and how does he respond to it. For me, he should be playing alongside Fernandes, not 'behind' him with Fred holding behind them two. Against harder opposition, it'll be Pogba on the left dropping James/wide right place holder.
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But that has precisely been his problem. Dont think of his selfishness as his ability to create but more of him trying to stat pad his numbers and putting himself before the club. When you play him as a DM he insists on taking on players right in front of our box which has led to counters. He doesnt want to play deep because he wants to attack. That is part of my meaning behind saying he is selfish. This is his 3rd season and we still cant find a position where he consistently excels because he would rather play his own game instead of adjusting to the role and finessing his skills to fit that role.

Now Im fully aware that Pogba creates lots of opportunities within a game. Still there should be no circumstance where you find yourself in that situation in the clip and decide to shoot from there instead of making the correct decision to pass. This is also not a one of. He makes these decisions a lot.

Im also trying to be optimistic with a midfield of Bruno and Pogba with fred playing deepest but I think that leaves us open. Fred is a fantastic midfielder who I think plays better in a 2 man rather than one. Sometimes he struggles with his touch when receiving the ball from deep which could lead to costly counters. I think it would be better if pogba played as deep as him to lessen those errors. If pogba wants to be successful here he has to accept that he plays in a midfielder 2 rather than as a free box to box midfielder. Of course he still has license to go forward but he has to help with building up from the back. This is the part were I think he is selfish and will try dribbling in front of our box instead of releasing the ball quickly to avert pressure.

Another thing we could look at is our defense being more composed on the ball. This could really help with us fielding an unbalanced midfield with Pogba. If maguire stops dwelling on the ball and makes more forward passes instantly it could cut out the need for both fred and pogba dropping deep to receive. Also we could retrain De gea to be more willing to pass out the back instead of clearing the ball under pressure.
 
lex talionis said:
I'm not sure this is a question that needs to be answered. Pogba is a free spirit footballer who can't be tasked with significant defensive responsibilities.

Bring in a truly world class defensive midfielder, an elite CB to partner with Maguire and Bruno and Paul can do whatever their imaginations can conjure up.
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Id usually take in this excuse but he was tasked with defensive responsibilities for France and excelled. Id say its more so of him not wanting to do them for us which is selfish. Im pretty sure he would like to be a free spirited box to box but he needs to think about what United needs of him similar to Wayne when he took the back seat to accommodate Ronaldo. Thats what great players do for their respective clubs.
 
Anyone scared that a midfield 3 of Bruno, Pogba and a DM (Fred or McTominay) is too open defensively is scared from years of us being bad. We played Giggs in a 2 man midfield. Pogba won the World Cup as one of their 3 best players in that role and the DM will be relatively mobile for the position. Bruno can contribute without a completely free role because his long passing and shooting are so good he doesn't need to get into the other team's box to contribute a fair bit defensively.

We might be better off playing a diamond in big games and getting Fred and McTominay in, or even having them both play and the aesthetically ugly option of playing Bruno left or right or Pogba on the left but even that would be a much higher quality team than anything we put out with Lingard, Pereira or even the sadly too old Mata or Matic.

Hell, we could play a Pellegrini style 4-2-2-2 or a square with Pogba narrow left and Bruno narrow right with one of Rashford or James told to hug the line and be better than we are normally now.

Also small note that if he stays and 6 of our most reliably healthy and productive 8 outfield players (Martial and Maguire the other 2 central and then Wan-Bissaka and Rashford out wide) are central midfielders, we need width more than ever and have to sign a proper left-footed fullback who can get assists and challenge Shaw or potentially even have him moved to LB full-time. If Wan-Bissaka doesn't become a new player going forward, I think that's necessary, unless we get a coach like Simeone or uh Benitez and try to pivot to a defending and counter side and nobody wants that anyways unless we get Simeone.
 
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KennyBurner said:
But that has precisely been his problem. Dont think of his selfishness as his ability to create but more of him trying to stat pad his numbers and putting himself before the club. When you play him as a DM he insists on taking on players right in front of our box which has led to counters. He doesnt want to play deep because he wants to attack. That is part of my meaning behind saying he is selfish. This is his 3rd season and we still cant find a position where he consistently excels because he would rather play his own game instead of adjusting to the role and finessing his skills to fit that role.

Now Im fully aware that Pogba creates lots of opportunities within a game. Still there should be no circumstance where you find yourself in that situation in the clip and decide to shoot from there instead of making the correct decision to pass. This is also not a one of. He makes these decisions a lot.

Im also trying to be optimistic with a midfield of Bruno and Pogba with fred playing deepest but I think that leaves us open. Fred is a fantastic midfielder who I think plays better in a 2 man rather than one. Sometimes he struggles with his touch when receiving the ball from deep which could lead to costly counters. I think it would be better if pogba played as deep as him to lessen those errors. If pogba wants to be successful here he has to accept that he plays in a midfielder 2 rather than as a free box to box midfielder. Of course he still has license to go forward but he has to help with building up from the back. This is the part were I think he is selfish and will try dribbling in front of our box instead of releasing the ball quickly to avert pressure.

Another thing we could look at is our defense being more composed on the ball. This could really help with us fielding an unbalanced midfield with Pogba. If maguire stops dwelling on the ball and makes more forward passes instantly it could cut out the need for both fred and pogba dropping deep to receive. Also we could retrain De gea to be more willing to pass out the back instead of clearing the ball under pressure.
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1. No he doesn’t, as a season ticket holder I can’t remember him ever taking someone on right in front of our box. He’s excellent at getting the ball to forward players from deep.

2. Great, show us loads of examples then where he could’ve put someone through and chose not to. Show us loads, there’s loads of assists and clips of great balls and decisions where others have then gone on and wasted great chances. So there must be even more of the situations you’re talking about.
 
Jeppers7 said:
1. No he doesn’t, as a season ticket holder I can’t remember him ever taking someone on right in front of our box. He’s excellent at getting the ball to forward players from deep.

2. Great, show us loads of examples then where he could’ve put someone through and chose not to. Show us loads, there’s loads of assists and clips of great balls and decisions where others have then gone on and wasted great chances. So there must be even more of the situations you’re talking about.
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Yeah. I think the problem people had with Pogba when playing deep was he kept holding the ball for too long but I think he was just doing that because of the lack of movement since he always wants to pass forward
 
Are people seriously debating rather Paul Pogba fits into our team while we lie in 5th place? it'd be different if we were storming the league or something, some people need to seriously get real.
 
Shark said:
Are people seriously debating rather Paul Pogba fits into our team while we lie in 5th place? it'd be different if we were storming the league or something, some people need to seriously get real.
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Yeah, since Fernandes' arrival we're more or less storming the league being only behind Liverpool in form. Small sample size of 5 games but 4 of them were City and Wolves at home and Chelsea, Eveton away. Enough for debate wether he should fit in or not. Same way people are debating Martial/Ighalo despite having seen even less from the latter. That's what forums are for.

Not to mention it's not his quality that most people question. Do you think departing with Di Maria was the wrong choice despite us not storming the league at the time and him being twice the player Young was?
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Yeah. I think the problem people had with Pogba when playing deep was he kept holding the ball for too long but I think he was just doing that because of the lack of movement since he always wants to pass forward
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yep he’s definitely been guilty of that at times, hopefully in a better side he won’t be inclined to do so. When I watch him for France he’s extremely effective in starting moves from deep and not overplaying.
 
nyanza said:
Yeah, since Fernandes' arrival we're more or less storming the league being only behind Liverpool in form. Small sample size of 5 games but 4 of them were City and Wolves at home and Chelsea, Eveton away. Enough for debate wether he should fit in or not. Same way people are debating Martial/Ighalo despite having seen even less from the latter. That's what forums are for.

Not to mention it's not his quality that most people question. Do you think departing with Di Maria was the wrong choice despite us not storming the league at the time and him being twice the player Young was?
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wolves at home was 50/50 game really both teams cancelled each other out. Could see Pogba being criticised here because we were at home to wolves and we didn’t win or dominate midfield.

Everton away we were poor overall especially second half. Could see Pogba being criticised there for being too greedy.

City at home was a great win. Could see parallels to games against City where Pogba has been criticised because it’s suggested as a world record transfer we shouldn’t be getting dominated. That setting up a goal and having a few nice touches isn’t really enough.

I think context and expectations play a part too.
 
In the first team midfield provided he wants to be here. But he doesn’t, so it’s largely moot.
 
KennyBurner said:
But that has precisely been his problem. Dont think of his selfishness as his ability to create but more of him trying to stat pad his numbers and putting himself before the club. When you play him as a DM he insists on taking on players right in front of our box which has led to counters. He doesnt want to play deep because he wants to attack. That is part of my meaning behind saying he is selfish. This is his 3rd season and we still cant find a position where he consistently excels because he would rather play his own game instead of adjusting to the role and finessing his skills to fit that role.
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There is definitely a bit of self-indulgence and immaturity in his play but to call it mostly selfish is incredibly harsh. You don't put up his kind of figures in terms of chance creation, assists, through balls etc by being a 'selfish'.

Before that, you should question 1) why is he being asked to play in a two/so deep 2) what are his other team mates doing in relation? Again, he deserves criticism but you have to look at the wider picture.

Think about all the players, who 'bring their team to another level', 'should meet their expectation and transfer fee' or is seen as the influential spark that play in the midfield positions. KDB, Ozil, Grealish, Maddison, Eriksen etc all play in front of at least two others or play in a wider position. Why? Because you don't need to fecking put your best player deep in the middle of park doing donkey work.

Would you play Fernandes in a two with Lingard in front of him? Of course you wouldn't but Pogba has been asked that for most of his career here at Utd. Some have already noticed how overly ambitious and wasteful at times Fernandes has been further up the park. Can you imagine him trying to be creative and play 'unselfishly' deeper? I'm not saying he would dilly dally as much as Pogba would but it's a systematic problem. Of the few times and periods where we have played as a team and had decent movement, Pogba has more times than not always played the right ball with a team-first attitude.

Had Pogba been fit where we saw the emergence of Fred/Matic/McTominay this season (in addition to Rashford/Martial and the stability of the back from Maguire, Shaw and AWB), Fernandes might not be playing for us now and Lingard would have had zero minutes this season.

It's a good problem to have now and credit to OGS for this, although there's still a lot more work to do.
 
With the effect of the virus on the transfer market would Juve and Real Madrid want to pay 100m for him?? These are two clubs that want him and both are already stacked in CM position
 
Are we going to be able to sell him in the current situation even if he/we want to?
 
KennyBurner said:
But that has precisely been his problem. Dont think of his selfishness as his ability to create but more of him trying to stat pad his numbers and putting himself before the club. When you play him as a DM he insists on taking on players right in front of our box which has led to counters. He doesnt want to play deep because he wants to attack. That is part of my meaning behind saying he is selfish. This is his 3rd season and we still cant find a position where he consistently excels because he would rather play his own game instead of adjusting to the role and finessing his skills to fit that role.
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He isn't played in that position as a DM - his role is to be able to be able to be a creator from deep and also a player that is able to carry the ball forward, that can break the lines with a pass or dribble, it's actually exactly how Ole wanted him playing because he said that a few times, he doesn't mind him losing the ball and in fact wants him to do it again. I personally didn't care too much for how much risk he was being allowed to take but, I also could understand the reasoning, if Pogba can invite pressure and with his ability break the lines, it would put us at opponents throats quickly. Risk / reward thing. Playing the same role for France he doesn't normally take as much risk.

What might be interesting now that we have Bruno ahead, Ole might decide to get Pogba to be a little more conservative and at the same time Pogba also won't have the pressure to be the only creator and be more judicious on when he tries some to take on people deeper.
 
He could play along side Bruno in a 4123 system if we are able to sign a DM like Partey, Ndidi etc.
 
Pogba and Bruno in a 3 man midfield is never ever gonna happen unless we are already 2 goals up. Pogba is a liability in a 3 when it comes to defensive duties. He can't be trusted unless he's the furthest of the 3, and without defensive responsibility.

The truth is we are a far better midfield without Pogba. Pogba is outstanding as a No.10 and that's where Ole will play him, to give Bruno a rest, if we are playing 2 games a week in June or July to finish the PL.

Pogba will be a squad player, but the good news is that he will be playing to earn his move abroad, so he'll be giving his all for a change I'd imagine.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Yeah. I think the problem people had with Pogba when playing deep was he kept holding the ball for too long but I think he was just doing that because of the lack of movement since he always wants to pass forward
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This for me as well. There are times where he probably could have played the earlier ball but yeah I would think a lot of it is him backing himself to hold the ball in a situation until someone actually makes a run or gives him an option. Felt like he was taking too much responsibility at times to try and make something happen.

The way the team is preforming now, I would expect him to slip in and find far my joy. Fred has become a completely different player, there is Bruno, Shaw and Bissaka were in form and then there is Martial, they all seem in a far better place than when Pogba got injured.I want to see what that team can do.
 
Champagne Football said:
Pogba and Bruno in a 3 man midfield is never ever gonna happen unless we are already 2 goals up. Pogba is a liability in a 3 when it comes to defensive duties. He can't be trusted unless he's the furthest of the 3, and without defensive responsibility.

The truth is we are a far better midfield without Pogba. Pogba is outstanding as a No.10 and that's where Ole will play him, to give Bruno a rest, if we are playing 2 games a week in June or July to finish the PL.

Pogba will be a squad player, but the good news is that he will be playing to earn his move abroad, so he'll be giving his all for a change I'd imagine.
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I have to say I disagree with absolutely every point you’ve made here.
 
Champagne Football said:
Pogba and Bruno in a 3 man midfield is never ever gonna happen unless we are already 2 goals up. Pogba is a liability in a 3 when it comes to defensive duties. He can't be trusted unless he's the furthest of the 3, and without defensive responsibility.

The truth is we are a far better midfield without Pogba. Pogba is outstanding as a No.10 and that's where Ole will play him, to give Bruno a rest, if we are playing 2 games a week in June or July to finish the PL.

Pogba will be a squad player, but the good news is that he will be playing to earn his move abroad, so he'll be giving his all for a change I'd imagine.
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I'm guessing you've forgotten we played Pogba and Mctominay in a pivot behind Lingard as the AM
 
I don't think Pogba has a problem with playing the deep lying playmaker. His long passes i his speciality and are useful there. Rashford also said in an interview that Pogba takes pride in his long passes more than anything else in his game
 
criticalanalysis said:
There is definitely a bit of self-indulgence and immaturity in his play but to call it mostly selfish is incredibly harsh. You don't put up his kind of figures in terms of chance creation, assists, through balls etc by being a 'selfish'.

Before that, you should question 1) why is he being asked to play in a two/so deep 2) what are his other team mates doing in relation? Again, he deserves criticism but you have to look at the wider picture.

Think about all the players, who 'bring their team to another level', 'should meet their expectation and transfer fee' or is seen as the influential spark that play in the midfield positions. KDB, Ozil, Grealish, Maddison, Eriksen etc all play in front of at least two others or play in a wider position. Why? Because you don't need to fecking put your best player deep in the middle of park doing donkey work.

Would you play Fernandes in a two with Lingard in front of him? Of course you wouldn't but Pogba has been asked that for most of his career here at Utd. Some have already noticed how overly ambitious and wasteful at times Fernandes has been further up the park. Can you imagine him trying to be creative and play 'unselfishly' deeper? I'm not saying he would dilly dally as much as Pogba would but it's a systematic problem. Of the few times and periods where we have played as a team and had decent movement, Pogba has more times than not always played the right ball with a team-first attitude.

Had Pogba been fit where we saw the emergence of Fred/Matic/McTominay this season (in addition to Rashford/Martial and the stability of the back from Maguire, Shaw and AWB), Fernandes might not be playing for us now and Lingard would have had zero minutes this season.

It's a good problem to have now and credit to OGS for this, although there's still a lot more work to do.
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I agree with most of what you said. Just to be clear Im a big fan of Pogba and dont want him to go because it weakens United. Im just trying to highlight the problems we will still have when trying to fit him into our current setup. Problems that could be solved if he decides to be more of a cog rather than an individualistic star. With that said I too don't agree that he should be playing so deep but thats whats needed from him given we have bought Bruno fernandes. Both him and bruno are good players going forward but we cant play both of them in the same position and Im sure we would both rather Pogba play deeper than bruno for tactical reasons. Its not ideal for him but its whats needed for Manchester United going forward.

You did however highlight my major concerns with him which are his immaturity and self indulgence on the ball. I dont think bruno would try and shield the ball from 2 players to show of his strength when he could just pass it to someone open. I also never complain when Pogba is wasteful on the ball given its a one on one that he misses which happens. Its more of the shooting from open when there is a man free to score that infuriates me. Those are the plays I expect more fro lingard and not him given his talent.
 
Shimo said:
He isn't played in that position as a DM - his role is to be able to be able to be a creator from deep and also a player that is able to carry the ball forward, that can break the lines with a pass or dribble, it's actually exactly how Ole wanted him playing because he said that a few times, he doesn't mind him losing the ball and in fact wants him to do it again. I personally didn't care too much for how much risk he was being allowed to take but, I also could understand the reasoning, if Pogba can invite pressure and with his ability break the lines, it would put us at opponents throats quickly. Risk / reward thing. Playing the same role for France he doesn't normally take as much risk.

What might be interesting now that we have Bruno ahead, Ole might decide to get Pogba to be a little more conservative and at the same time Pogba also won't have the pressure to be the only creator and be more judicious on when he tries some to take on people deeper.
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Maybe I should change DM to deep lying playmaker. My message still suggests we play him in a 2 man midfielder to start/support our buildup play. I also dont think when Ole said take risks he meant shield the ball in front of our defense when its clear Jota/Jiminez are looking to nick the ball of you to start a counter. Taking risks could mean spraying long balls from deep which he does do but Im focusing more on the unnecessary showboating from deep. he needed to unlearn that 2 years ago.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
I'm guessing you've forgotten we played Pogba and Mctominay in a pivot behind Lingard as the AM
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Yeah and it was horrible. He kept losing possession, looked lost and not too bothered, kept playing the Hollywood balls over the top. The only time Pogba has looked awesome here was when he was our furthest forward central midfielder, where his focus was to attack only and without too much defensive responsibility.
 
Champagne Football said:
Yeah and it was horrible. He kept losing possession, looked lost and not too bothered, kept playing the Hollywood balls over the top. The only time Pogba has looked awesome here was when he was our furthest forward central midfielder, where his focus was to attack only and without too much defensive responsibility.
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I think you're exaggerating a bit but I agree. And my point is that Pogba was already part of a 3 man midfield that had an attacking midfielder which is Lingard until he got injured. So I don't understand why you think Pogba and Bruno another attacking midfielder in a three man midfield will never happen.

At the start of the season when everyone was fit, we had the option to play Pogba as no 10 with Fred/Matic and Mctominay/Matic behind him or even a 4-3-3 and play him in his best postion LCM, Mctominay or Fred as RCM and Matic as DM yet that never happened. Instead Ole played Pogba and Lingard an attacking midfielder that Bruno is in a three man midfield.

.... Bruno....

Pogba...Fred/Mctominay

Whether this midfield works or not, you're definitely going to see us try out
 
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