If Messi is the unquestionable #1 of all time, then Ronaldo surely is in the top 5 at the very least. He is the only player capable of challenging the greatest of all time for the wpoty.
They didn't see him at his peak. Possibly the second best player I've seen after Madonna.
Says more about what a joke that award has become than about Cristiano's brilliance.If Ronaldo didn't exist Messi would have won seven consecutive Ballon d'Ors. Think about that.
People don't seem to rate Ronaldo de lima that much.
Pity.
France 98 ruined people's opinion of him.
In the next 20 or 30 years more super clubs like current Bayern/Madrid/Barca will emerge due to the growing commercialization of the game and more star players will rack up 50 goal a season stats and be adored by 100 million Facebook followers who will crown these players the new "GOATs" due to the sheer dominance of their teams and that will ultimately determine the question of the OP and put a lot of things into perspective.
They didn't see him at his peak. Possibly the second best player I've seen after Madonna.
It is a pity. He was unbelievably good. Incredibly likeable as well. I remember being chuffed for him in 02 (despite his criminal hairdo!)
He was godlike in his prime. Top 5 in my book.
Good post. There is a second tier of greats, including but not limited to Eusebio, Muller, Platini, Zico and Ronaldo, each of whom have proven themselves at every level and each of whom have a similar if not stronger case to being in amongst the top 5-10. In many ways their brilliant careers have been overshadowed by the success of Pele (Eusebio), Beckenbauer (Muller) and Maradona (Platini, Zico) which means the passage of time does not do them justice. And it's likely we'll see a similar dynamic play out for Messi and Ronaldo.Of all players active, Ronaldo's legacy is the hardest to frame. He's done some wonderful things and shattered a lot of longstanding records, but at the same time, his legacy on the grandest stages does not match with numerous greats from the past, and he will not have an international tournament of note for his entire career, and that's irrespective of Portugal winning anything, as it's not about only that (look at Cruyff or Puskas or Eusbeio or countless others to understand the point being made).
The modern Champions League also gives modern players on stacked teams countless chances to make a name for themselves and do wonderful things. Ronaldo has a lot of goals in the competition, but since he left us, I'm not sure he's done anything, or had any moments that will go down in the annuls of time of their own merit (such as his wonder goal vs Porto, or the header vs Roma etc).
There's little question of Ronaldo being the best goal-scoring wide forward of all time by now, so in that category, his legacy is assured, but when pitted directly against skilful and creative wingers who were at their very, very best in the biggest games of their career such as Best and Garrincha, I don't think he gets in a team over them.
The barometer for Messi isn't and shouldn't be the same as it is for Ronaldo beings as one is a natural #10 following in the footsteps of a lot of #10's with a similar skilset that can be compared and scrutinised easily and because all those #10's controlled and governed games, it's very easy to deliberate on how much influence and presence they had in their teams, which Ronaldo, by default, cannot attain. Ronaldo came up as a proper winger, changed to a wing-forward goal-scoring machine and will eventually end up as a striker. That in itself is unique and perhaps Ronaldo's legacy has a few more chapters yet that can alter opinion of him further.
Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Platini, Di Stefano, Puskas, Best, Garrincha, Eusebio. That's ten players alone that had amazing talent and constantly rose to the biggest occasions.
Ronaldo, Gullit, Van Basten, Romario, G.Muller, Messi,
That's another 5 attackers, (in fact, apart from Beckenbauer, I've made sure to only mention attackers, the list is more extensive with defensive players added) you'd better have a good argument to say Ronaldo can match up to let alone surpass.
There are countless other players you can add for arguments sake and ask specifically why Ronaldo should be ranked above them. Players like Ronaldinho, Henry, Zico, Kocsic and so on, and I don't think the counters would really stand up.
The lad said it himself: "with me is always polemic." And he's damn right.
There's little question of Ronaldo being the best goal-scoring wide forward of all time by now, so in that category, his legacy is assured, but when pitted directly against skilful and creative wingers who were at their very, very best in the biggest games of their career such as Best and Garrincha, I don't think he gets in a team over them.
In the next 20 or 30 years more super clubs like current Bayern/Madrid/Barca will emerge due to the growing commercialization of the game and more star players will rack up 50 goal a season stats and be adored by 100 million Facebook followers who will crown these players the new "GOATs" due to the sheer dominance of their teams and that will ultimately determine the question of the OP and put a lot of things into perspective.
They didn't see him at his peak. Possibly the second best player I've seen after Madonna.
He was brilliant however his peak was way too short, unforunately....
I think there's a generational divide occurring where a lot of people in our age range think the same about these 'spectacular' goal tallies. They're impressive only up to a point and then you think about the incredible defences and defenders of the past and what goal-scorers used to face, and can't help but be cynical and not think a goal now is equal to what a goal was in times gone by. There's barely any good CB's about, let alone exceptional ones and that skews numbers massively for those who are undoubtedly their generations' top players.Basically a lot of goals in a poor league playing for one of the best teams in club football. Great but so what?
But is that fair on Ronaldo? As I said in my post, Messi is a natural #10 with all the skills and attributes associated with the very best to have played the position. It should then go without saying that his play will be more aesthetically pleasing and he'll have more touches and influence on a game. #10's don't even have to be prolific to be lauded, just as long as their passing and ability to open up defences is sublime, so Messi can always be about more than goals and get praise. Is it fair on Ronaldo to be held to the same standard when he started out as a winger?I find it hard to view him as more than just a great goal scorer. Even if you took away all Messi's goals he'd still be a special player, I don't feel the same way about Ronaldo. He wouldn't be in a top 10 list for me.
Yes, indeed. Someone like Zico has just been tossed aside by the passage of time when he was an absolutely tremendous footballer. That overshadowing thing is a big problem in debates like this because a fighting case has to be made for players who, by skill and talent, have every right to be mentioned as peers with those who history has blessed with the spotlight.Good post. There is a second tier of greats, including but not limited to Eusebio, Muller, Platini, Zico and Ronaldo, each of whom have proven themselves at every level and each of whom have a similar if not stronger case to being in amongst the top 5-10. In many ways their brilliant careers have been overshadowed by the success of Pele (Eusebio), Beckenbauer (Muller) and Maradona (Platini, Zico) which means the passage of time does not do them justice. And it's likely we'll see a similar dynamic play out for Messi and Ronaldo.
Personally I'd have Ronaldo in my all-time team, no question. Beyond that, I find it very hard to appreciate the players of the past in light of the football played today. Its none of their fault, they could only play the game as good as it was played at the time, heavy ball, heavy boots, opponents and team-mates out of shape and some not even that athletic to being with. But you really watch some of rare video, and they're... well they're shit by today's standards. Below are highlights of Pele vs. Mexico in the 62 WC, which is claimed to be one of his best performances, and his goal at around 7:30 is considered a masterpiece.
Again, no fault of Pele and those guys. And the game really improved through the 70s, but I still find it hard to appreciate the old stars fully, and think that somehow they were better than Ronaldo or Messi.
But there hasn't been such a bottlenecking of talent in the history of the game prior to this era, which is why the imbalance between strong and the rest is so much.There have been superteams and dominant teams before. But there's rarely been players who concentrated so much of those teams' goalscoring. Specifically Messi, I don't think there's ever been anyone who had such volume and efficiency of goals and assists. I'm with Mourinho on this one, who I think said that the landscape of top European football will change a bit once Messi slows down. I don't think football's ever seen anything like him.
My Ronaldo veredict? Top 3
Messi is definitely ahead of Ronaldo in any poll....Messi is miles ahead of any footballer in an all time list not just in ability but in longevity and consistency also
I'd go for this
1.Messi
2. Pele
3. CR7 + Maradona
4.Zidane
Somewhere just behind Gerrard no doubt.
There's footage of the raw array and differing skills shown by Pele that haven't been matched since by any one player - there's different players who can pull off different goals from his compilations but not one who can do all that he shows. He is always knocked down in these discussions because his vantage point and pedestal lends itself to the most scrutiny, which is fair enough, but you have to look at a body of work to draw conclusions rather than small sample sizes. Ronaldo could be made to look like an indifferent tap-in merchant if you picked from the last few years, for example.
And if you look at this one, the defenders are not slouches.
Not trying to sidetrack this thread, but Pele can't be anything but 1 or 2 depending on where Maradona is placed, and nothing that's come since changes that, imo.
But there hasn't been such a bottlenecking of talent in the history of the game prior to this era, which is why the imbalance between strong and the rest is so much.
Where is the original Ronaldo ? Cant take any top 5 list serious without him in it.
You could argue that CB's were better but I'd argue that teams defend better as a unit now which is also a lot harder because the game is much fast than it was in Serie A's heyday.I think there's a generational divide occurring where a lot of people in our age range think the same about these 'spectacular' goal tallies. They're impressive only up to a point and then you think about the incredible defences and defenders of the past and what goal-scorers used to face, and can't help but be cynical and not think a goal now is equal to what a goal was in times gone by. There's barely any good CB's about, let alone exceptional ones and that skews numbers massively for those who are undoubtedly their generations' top players.
Our generation wait for the biggest games and tournament ends to come about and then look at what players deliver because that's the way things used to be judged.
But is that fair on Ronaldo? As I said in my post, Messi is a natural #10 with all the skills and attributes associated with the very best to have played the position. It should then go without saying that his play will be more aesthetically pleasing and he'll have more touches and influence on a game. #10's don't even have to be prolific to be lauded, just as long as their passing and ability to open up defences is sublime, so Messi can always be about more than goals and get praise. Is it fair on Ronaldo to be held to the same standard when he started out as a winger?
Yes, indeed. Someone like Zico has just been tossed aside by the passage of time when he was an absolutely tremendous footballer. That overshadowing thing is a big problem in debates like this because a fighting case has to be made for players who, by skill and talent, have every right to be mentioned as peers with those who history has blessed with the spotlight.
Personally I'd have Ronaldo in my all-time team, no question. Beyond that, I find it very hard to appreciate the players of the past in light of the football played today. Its none of their fault, they could only play the game as good as it was played at the time, heavy ball, heavy boots, opponents and team-mates out of shape and some not even that athletic to being with. But you really watch some of rare video, and they're... well they're shit by today's standards. Below are highlights of Pele vs. Mexico in the 62 WC, which is claimed to be one of his best performances, and his goal at around 7:30 is considered a masterpiece.
Again, no fault of Pele and those guys. And the game really improved through the 70s, but I still find it hard to appreciate the old stars fully, and think that somehow they were better than Ronaldo or Messi.
There have been superteams and dominant teams before. But there's rarely been players who concentrated so much of those teams' goalscoring. Specifically Messi, I don't think there's ever been anyone who had such volume and efficiency of goals and assists. I'm with Mourinho on this one, who I think said that the landscape of top European football will change a bit once Messi slows down. I don't think football's ever seen anything like him.
My Ronaldo veredict? Top 3
There's footage of the raw array and differing skills shown by Pele that haven't been matched since by any one player - there's different players who can pull off different goals from his compilations but not one who can do all that he shows. He is always knocked down in these discussions because his vantage point and pedestal lends itself to the most scrutiny, which is fair enough, but you have to look at a body of work to draw conclusions rather than small sample sizes. Ronaldo could be made to look like an indifferent tap-in merchant if you picked from the last few years, for example.
And if you look at this one, the defenders are not slouches.
Not trying to sidetrack this thread, but Pele can't be anything but 1 or 2 depending on where Maradona is placed, and nothing that's come since changes that, imo.
But there hasn't been such a bottlenecking of talent in the history of the game prior to this era, which is why the imbalance between strong and the rest is so much.
I don't think that's fair. A lot of us seen him and fall in love with him, he was absolutely unbelievable. But his actual peak before the injury was too short in terms of this all-time ranking - if he would've continued like he started, he probably would've been considered top-10 or even top-5.They didn't see him at his peak. Possibly the second best player I've seen after Madonna.
Cristiano is Michel Platini or Ferenc Puskas level right now; just ahead of the likes of Eusebio, and behind Di Stefano and Cruyff.
