What is wrong with the way we play?

Hammondo said:
Brighton doesn't play with much zip, it's all about weighting the pass and movement off the ball.
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The lack of movement for us has always been an issue, you can even go back to this forum under Fergies last year or two, i remember the "slow motion zombie passing" thread that was bumped every game, for whatever reason they just don't want to do it, but that's the only way to dominate games, smart movement and dragging the opposition out of position, collectively they might just be a bit thick?
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
That game at the Etihad was good, but we didn't play that way constantly vs City under Ole. Most of the other games were us sitting back and creating null while looking like a relegation side.

All of the best teams in the last decade are proactive sides. Being a reactive side caps your ceiling.
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We beat them home and away that season, and played well in both. And created plenty of chances in other games too, and were only forced to sit back because we had the nerve to go 0-1 up in the first minute and naturally City had a problem with that.

Feck knows what we did under this current fraud. They hit us for 6.
 
Rozay said:
You’re just creating your own narratives here. You have no idea the extent to which he wanted Kane, you don’t know to the extent to which he wasn’t flexible on Kane, we spent most of the summer trying to sign Hojlund, we didn’t switch to him after chasing Kane. It just makes sense to you that we probably wanted Kane desperately.

He’s a con man because he can’t get a team doing anything of note unless Harry Lane is the striker, Dec Rice is the DM (with De Jong beside him) and I imagine, Mbappé is out wide. Somehow De Zerbi manages to.

You’re actually being completely ridiculous, I’ve never seen anyone attempt to exonerate a manager because (reported) first choice, best in the world players were not available. What happens when you can’t get your first choice is you get your second. Ten Hag said that the club decided early that Hojlund is the one they want anyway. De Jong refused to join him. Should he have resigned then and there?
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I have an idea that when a manager says he wants a world class striker and when the team clearly lacked goals last season. That he probably wanted a world class striker.

Im not just talking about Kane. And there were reports he wanted Hojlund and another because we knew Hojlund was not ready.
 
big_jeffstar said:
The lack of movement for us has always been an issue, you can even go back to this forum under Fergies last year or two, i remember the "slow motion zombie passing" thread that was bumped every game, for whatever reason they just don't want to do it, but that's the only way to dominate games, smart movement and dragging the opposition out of position, collectively they might just be a bit thick?
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We have a lot of old fashioned DNA imo.
 
One of the biggest problems now and going back remains the lack of real effort. The play yesterday was far too casual.
Heads down.
Failing to mark.
Failing to press.
And a total failure to commit to put 100% effort.
Just lazy casual can't be bothered attitude.
 
They all failed on the basics and complicate simple things
1) failed at midfield scouting
2) failed at midfield coaching
3) failed at midfield signing
 
We have no style of play and little idea of what to do in possession over than give it to Bruno and rashford
 
I think we are seeing signs that 1) the player recruitment by eth and 2) the coaching by eth hasn't been at the level required.

But there is still time to turn it around this season. 100m for Antony being a dud is a majar problem but if he can coach pellistri, garnacho and diallo three big talents we can get out of that.

Amrobat and hojlund need to work out and work out quickly though. Hojlund has to score goals, amrobat has to be the ball carrier we have been looking for. The play has to improve in next 4 months no real excuses.
 
It’s the coach. ETH has been unable to implement a coherent, possession based, dominating style of play.

If fecking Brighton with Van De Hecke, Lamptey, Steele and Gross can do it, this Utd squad full of internationals sure fecking can.
 
Cassidy said:
I have an idea that when a manager says he wants a world class striker and when the team clearly lacked goals last season. That he probably wanted a world class striker.

Im not just talking about Kane. And there were reports he wanted Hojlund and another because we knew Hojlund was not ready.
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Could have been done had he not wasted a collosal amount of money on Antony.
 
Skills said:
Could have been done had he not wasted a collosal amount of money on Antony.
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Didn’t not realise he forced the club to do a last minute deal for a RW and to overpay

Did not realise he was the DOF at the club and he was negotiating fees and contracts
 
Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
It’s the coach. ETH has been unable to implement a coherent, possession based, dominating style of play.

If fecking Brighton with Van De Hecke, Lamptey, Steele and Gross can do it, these fecking players sure can.
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Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho, Ole and now Ten Hag they have all struggled to implement a style we could bring in de Zebri and we would still play the same way. Also people are forgetting the football under Ferguson towards the end was anything but easy on the eye with lots of grinding out results especially in his final season.

All these problems run so much deeper which will take years to fix.
 
Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
It’s the coach. ETH has been unable to implement a coherent, possession based, dominating style of play.

If fecking Brighton with Van De Hecke, Lamptey, Steele and Gross can do it, these fecking players sure can.
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Yep, in a nutshell. If he played this type of football at Ajax, he'd have been sacked from there and would never have got the utd job in the first place...
 
KD6-3.7 said:
Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho, Ole and now Ten Hag they have all struggled to implement a style we could bring in de Zebri and we would still play the same way. Also people are forgetting the football under Ferguson towards the end was anything but easy on the eye with lots of grinding out results especially in his final season.

All these problems run so much deeper which will take years to fix.
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It shouldn’t take long to see a clear style of play being imprinted on a team, regardless of result. There’s countless examples of it in the Premier League as we speak. De Zerbi, Emery, Ange, Howe. All came in to their new teams and INSTANTLY changed the way the players played. No major overhaul.
 
KD6-3.7 said:
Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho, Ole and now Ten Hag they have all struggled to implement a style we could bring in de Zebri and we would still play the same way. Also people are forgetting the football under Ferguson towards the end was anything but easy on the eye with lots of grinding out results especially in his final season.

All these problems run so much deeper which will take years to fix.
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But were any of those managers any good anyway when they got here? Unproven or on the decline. Its not like they left and went onto to greatness elsewhere.

Good managers are really hard to find and often the only time they are at your club, cause they failed somewhere else.
 
Litch said:
Yep, in a nutshell. If he played this type of football at Ajax, he'd have been sacked from there and would never have got the utd job in the first place...
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Exactly. I’m baffled. I think maybe he’s found it hard to replicate that style in English football. The physicality has caught him out, like it did Pep. But he still hasn’t caught on to that.
 
Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
It shouldn’t take long to see a clear style of play being imprinted on a team, regardless of result. There’s countless examples of it in the Premier League as we speak. De Zerbi, Emery, Ange, Howe. All came in to their new teams and INSTANTLY changed the way the players played. No major overhaul.
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Utd is like a rich bloke who only buys his boxers from harrods. He's convinced that hes getting the best quality when in reality, its just a bloody label.
 
Training facilities is outdated maybe? I remember watching video in Germany where they implement all these new tech, body track suit, even the ball is tracked with micro chip in training. Everything goes back to data center.
Not saying United should get those but fans don't know how far the club is behind compare to European top teams but it seems we sink all the revenue into transfer, Salaries, operating cost, paying debt, and Glazer's pocket, there's probably not much left for investment off the field

When ETH came here, he talked about having to teach players to weight pass to teammate's dominant leg. It's fecking bizarre basic shit like these weren't in club's daily lesson plan in the past 10 years.
This may sound trivial but small things add up, these should help transition smoothly. As it stands, each new season for United feels like a completely new cycle where players have to learn to pass the ball as if they were 8 again
Last season there had been a period when the team were good at pressing collectively then they forgot how to do it toward the end of season. Like what?
 
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We watch the same pattern unfold every season. We have a relatively good season playing fairly bog-standard, old fashioned football because overall we do have above average players. We then attempt to press higher and play higher and it all comes crashing down as the same physical weaknesses are exposed time and time again (slow/weak/lazy/passive players)
 
Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
Exactly. I’m baffled. I think maybe he’s found it hard to replicate that style in English football. The physicality has caught him out, like it did Pep. But he still hasn’t caught on to that.
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Erik only has one body of work and a very specific one too. Its like so many really good players that have struggled to adapt to the prem. I think after the first few games, he realised that it wasnt going to work, and since then he is learning on the job.
He might get it right but I suspect he might run out of time....
 
It generally leads us to scoring fewer goals than the opposition
 
I think ETH needs to quickly realize that what works in Holland doesn’t necessarily work in England. He needs to tweak his tactics. We are too open. Players can attack freely when they know that the players behind them have their backs

on a personal note I’d love to see at least one traditional winger who can stretch the play, help his fullback out and get forward to fire crosses in. Hojlund will score once he settles and once he has a steady stream of chances
 
This thread should be called what is ‘right’ with the way we play. It will be shorter discussions.
 
Lindelof, Rashford, mctominay, martial, Eriksen's lack of legs, Casemiro fitness, the system we play all are severe problems. ETH lack of being able to get any sort of result away from home. His weird buys in Mount, Antony, Weghorst on loan, Reguilon on loan.

We're in a serious situation where we're holding on to players where we should be ruthless and cut them out.

Rashford is farcically selfish and his overall play is sub standard. Martial is finished and never was good enough. Lindelof is weak, never liked him. Fernandes I'm losing hope in.

Add to that Greenwood, Antony, Sancho all are gone - what a waste of money.

It's dark at the moment. The Glazers don't care. I've supported this club since 1996 and feel it's bleak. Moyes was pretty bad. We're heading back to that feeling.
 
I must say we’ve evolved as fans over the last decade in how we make sense of our club’s failure. Pleasantly surprised at how nuanced and balanced some of the arguments here are. We just need a similar approach in the club hierarchy.

I think there isn’t a single reason but many reasons for our continued decline. Changing the culture of a football club isn’t an easy fix - the progress we see at clubs like Brighton have been incremental over several years. they weren’t an overnight revelation
 
We don't look coached to even do the basics. The passing is below average, the off the ball runs is non existent and the so called 'counter press' that we're supposed to be playing is laughably bad

We've signed a 'sweeper keeper' to help play out from the back....problem is our players aren't comfortable on the ball and we give up possession too easily, it's a waste of time and in fact is actually a hinderance because we pass it back and can't play out so we end up stuck in our own half, the opposition must be pissing themselves laughing at how bad we are.

Teams like Villa, Wolves, Brighton and West Ham play a better brand of football than us before we even start mentioning the top 6, its a complete farce. Wolves are the best example they played passive/defensive football for years and in the space of a month Garry O'Neil has changed them into a attacking team who like to pass the ball they played us and Liverpool off the park and if they had a decent striker would have won both games comfortably.
 
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We rely on Rashford too much. Everything happens around him. We have enough opportunities every game but he refuses to pass.
 
We just seem to be an amalgamation of what we've seen in previous seasons (ie., being at our best when we're allowed to fully counter-attack). Different coaches, but the "philosophy" remains very similar. Whether that's by design, or whether it is due to the fact we have players who are just more suited to that style, so that's the one we default to, I don't know (probably the latter). The only time we had a style that really deviated from this, was when Van Gaal was here.

We're still very open, but I think that's because we're kind of stuck in between wanting to do one thing (move away from a mostly counter-attacking team) and transitioning into another (a more possession-based team) but haven't really got the players or structure to do it.
 
Bruno can’t dribble.
Eriksens legs are gone.
Casemiro is very heavy and can’t carry ball aswell.

Thats where the problems starts when your midfielders can’t open locks and only can pass you are forced to play in a certain way that is not optimal and thats what we are seeing.
 
I’m not sure it’s merely an issue of tactics, desire and quality. The team ultimately is a reflection of the club as a whole and surely it’s clear to anyone that the Glazers haven’t created a winning culture in the club. There is no transfer strategy. You have players at the club that ETH wanted to move on. I suspect that ETH is putting a brave face on the fact that he has not been backed in the transfer window. The club needs investment in new training facilities, a new stadium before the current one falls down and a 5 year plan built around a coherent buying strategy. All seem distant at the moment.
 
Our style of play is to pass the ball to Bruno and Rashford and let them do what they are good at.
 
It's games like yesterday that make me wish the moderators on this forum would just ban the phrase "there's not only one way to play football". Just use the asterisks, the number symbol or whatever to make it disappear. And don't let this, pretty much pointless, discussion about possession vs transition distract you. In 2023, there is only one way to play football at the highest level and that is by applying, honing and respecting the core principles of positional play. The use of coordinated off the ball movement to manipulate the space and create numerical, qualitative and positional advantages all over the pitch.

There's another thread on the front pages asking why is our passing so rubbish. The truth is, we don't value good passing much. To be honest, we never did. We did have players who were excellent at it, but that's not the same. We always saw it as a means to an end, as the tool to play fast and win games by the sheer quantity of chances we created. So, yes, we wanted players with the vision to execute a variety of passes and able to pick these passes in a split second, but it was instinctive more than anything else. It was about the ability to force the issue by using the quality of the final ball + the skill to get at the end of the pass combo. It led to some swashbuckling football, dominance in England and, i would also add, it was also a valiant thing to do during two decades in which football tactics seemed to become more defensive-minded by the day. Not only that, but it's probably the reason why most of us, who are of a certain age, fell in love with the club in the first place. Doesn't mean you couldn't see the cracks in it, though. If you leave the treble season aside for a minute, since United became top dogs on the island (1992/93) and just before the 2006/07 season, we won just 3 European knock-outs in 13 years. According to Maulensteen, when preparing for the 2007-08 season, SAF began the staff meeting with him and Queiroz with three words: "Possession is key". Since then, football has changed a lot. We haven't. Both the club and the fanbase.

There are two famous clips of ex-players discussing their managers that i'm going to use to exaggerate a bit. In the first one, Henry talks about how, in his early days at Barça, he scored a goal by doing what felt "natural" to him on the pitch, only to be berated by Pep at half-time. In the other, Rio talks about how United, in the early days of RvP, won a game by "habit", only for SAF to give them the hairdryer treatment for not adjusting to the Dutchman's needs. Of course, it's never that simple. But it shows the difference in approach and we all know whose approach has not only dominated but utterly changed the football landscape over the last decade. The ability to control space with structure against the relativism (i hope it makes sense in English, i can't think of another word) that's a product of partnerships between two or three players. It's not that the latter doesn't matter. It does, a lot. But as a key element of the former, not as its substitute. We can say that we want to have a passing game like Brighton's. But to get there, the first step is to realize that the gap between working as a team to exploit the space between the lines and score three identical goals (with different players) and doing everything in your power so that Rashford can have space to run with the ball is as wide as the Pacific Ocean.

Have a look at our marquee signings in the post-Ferguson era. So much money spent on so many players, only to start searching how much more money we need to spend to "unlock" them. Managers come and managers go because they can't get "the best out of them". What does that even mean in the grand scheme of things? Is there a "fixed" ceiling that any manager should be able to reach with any set of players or after he has spent a certain amount of money? What if the best they can offer doesn't get us where we want to go? We'll keep changing the managers and spend another half a billion to make CL every 2/3 seasons? I believe we're past the summer holiday stage where people thought that 100+ million for Kane would fix this shower of shite. We still have people who believe that <insert amount of money> to change the supporting cast should yield immediate results in terms of style. I guess you can't have it all.

But Sir Alex used to do it, he didn't need the best in every position to make his team work. True enough. You know what else he did? He valued variety of options, he stuck with players that could offer him tactical variability. The interchanging of positions between (young) Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez could allow us to attack with just three or four players because it added unpredictability. Giggs, once he lost his pace, could operate as a wide play-maker or a central midfielder. Did you ever ask yourselves what kind of player would "unlock" Scholes or make up for his defensive weaknesses? I sure as hell never did. Think about that final 2013 season. How RvP (and Rooney) would look to occupy that right half-space so that a one-footed right side that consisted mainly of Rafael and Valencia would work. Nowadays, how dare you ask Rashford to play on the right or up front. How dare you ask Bruno to stick to the script instead of leaving whoever plays on the right isolated? Not his job. Back in the day, that was the tradeoff for, as dear Jadon recently described it, being allowed to play with a smile on your face.

Do you remember who was Pep's first signing at City back in 2016? Ilkay Gundogan. Now, ask yourselves why United are never bothered with these types of midfielders. Why do we always end up discussing the necessity of a Fred or a McTominay at the centre of the park? Why, when it comes to the attacking trident, the discussion, almost always, revolves around end-product, pace and the ability to "beat your man" while the footballing world is craving for these annoying midgets who can carry the ball in tight spaces and/or receive it on the half-turn in the half-spaces? Think hard because this is an issue that transcends managers.

ETH will eventually lose his job because of the grave mistakes he made. The line of thought, actions and consequences that will swallow him up will be the same that made his predecessor come undone. That's why these two should be put together and not apart in the greater context of how United choose to conduct their business. But we don't do that on the Caf, it always has to be my guy vs your guy.

United aren't even a giant club trying to stand on its feet any more. We are a dinosaur on the brink of extinction. Even drawing the line for the start of our struggles in 2013 is false. The football world had already passed us by in the last years of SAF's reign. It was just that we were still the team to beat in England and the others were still playing catch-up. Once they acquired the engine they were building, they turned a corner and vanished out of sight.
 
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Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
It’s the coach. ETH has been unable to implement a coherent, possession based, dominating style of play.

If fecking Brighton with Van De Hecke, Lamptey, Steele and Gross can do it, this Utd squad full of internationals sure fecking can.
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It's pretty damning that they sold Caicedo and Mac as well and only brought on Evans at 85 mins that some fans want us to spend eye watering sums on. Had all these started some would be saying it's these players beat us handily and we should buy them.
 
We do give managers too much say so over who is sold and brought but I can't blame our poor set up as the only issue, I think we have just hired poor to average managers, it's all well and good that ten hag to play football with ajax in the Dutch league but it's a different beast in the premier league.

it's not to say all managers from minor are not good enough because look at spurs new manager big ange, he has spurs playing great football and are probably the most exciting side to watch so far this season and whilst it could be dubbed as a honeymoon period, I don't remember ten hag ever playing such exciting attacking football in his honeymoon period which has been the same sluggish style since beginning to now with one or two exciting matches scattered here and there but that can be said for ole, moyes, lvg and mourinho.
 
What I continue to be frustrated with is the number of players we sign who start well and then they deteriorate in terms of playing standard. More recent ones include Martinez, Casemiro and even Maguire. Very few actually improve.
There has to be a common denominator. Maybe it is too easy here.
Maybe it is the coaching.
Wish I knew. What am I saying.
Wish the manager knew.
 
redshaw said:
It's pretty damning that they sold Caicedo and Mac as well and only brought on Evans at 85 mins that some fans want us to spend eye watering sums on. Had all these started some would be saying it's these players beat us handily and we should buy them.
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Exactly. De Zerbi lost his first choice midfield, had no Estupinan, March, Webster too. Dispatched us easily. It’s damming on ETH unfortunately.
 
I'm sorry, but you can't say "don't mention the Glazers" when they are pretty much the only constant in the time frame you're referring to.

The fact is, we struggle to have a definitive playing style because there is nothing definitive about the club. It just lurches from one thing to the next with no real plan. There's no mechanisms in place behind the scenes to ensure we play a specific way and I don't think there are enough people who care about this in the driving seat at the club. They make money regardless.
 
The squad building has been quite poor. There’s not enough technicality and ball retention in this team to play possession football. The players also lack the intensity and aggression to play transitional style of play. I doubt even Klopp or Pep can make this team work without replacing half of the players, and that includes some of ETH’s signings
 
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