What is wrong with the way we play?

A team with Casemiro, Bruno and Rashford being the go to players is just horribly flawed unless you completely commit to a counterattacking style which Ole kinda did.

The best version of this team is one that sits back stays compact and breaks quickly. It also helps as Casemiro isn't forced to cover space that he's incapable of at his age.

The problem is the coaches have deluded themselves into thinking this team is better than that approach, particularly Bruno and Rashford. Once Ole tried to be more expansive he got the sack and now EtH is trying to be more on the front foot and is failing too.

We have to either accept we aren't good enough and play on the break or get rid of these players and rebuild with players better suited for the style.
 
Dannn411 said:
Same problem for the last 10 years. No midfielders good on the ball. Football is a simple game. If you have more of the ball, your chances to win increase because the more you have the ball, the more chances to score a goal with the ball and win the game. Those who play without the ball have a razor thin margin of error every game to get anything out of the game.

I judge managers based on what they do with their midfield. The best managers also have the best midfields. It is no coincidence.
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Yep could not agree more. We were actually very dangerous in attack today and Brighton seriously struggled to deal with us at times, and while we could have scored a few goals, Brighton were able to control the game via possession and slow it down when they needed to. This dragged our players all over the park which progressively killed of our counter attack as we tired out and lost the incentive. If they weren't able to do that, we probably would have scored 2-3 goals and it would have been a walk in the park.

I thought us getting Onana would help a lot in our ability to maintain a structured build up, but it seems to have just shifted the problem elsewhere. We are way to ready to hit the long ball from deep partly because it does occasionally work due to Rashford's pace, but we show such an inconsistent form of building a structured attack. I don't think we actually played through them from the center backs more than 1-2 times today. We seem to have two speeds. Walking pace and all out attack with no ability to transition between the two.

Our only consistent midfielder in maintaining posession and a tempo is Eriksen and he has well noted other issues. Casemiro while able to pick a good long ball from time to time is way to loose and erratic on the ball for a defensive midfielder. Bruno is obviously a creative machine and we could get away with his give aways if it was mainly just him doing it, because he does have serious end product, but he is far from alone.

Not being able to build a sustained attack that isn't a 100 mile per hour counter attack combined with our half press/half sit back mentality make us so easy to play against.
 
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Biggest problem imo, not enough legs in midfield.

We also have a fundamental problem in pressing, thats been there since last year. The opposing fullbacks go high up and the opp GK invariably finds them and they retain the ball. At the same time don't feel like we progress the ball as well with the same tactic, other teams have a better press against us with that style. Is it because our wide players don't drop back to press the FBs as much? Not sure. Don't feel like Arsenal or City have the same problem pressing or playing against the press
 
El Jefe said:
A team with Casemiro, Bruno and Rashford being the go to players is just horribly flawed unless you completely commit to a counterattacking style which Ole kinda did.

The best version of this team is one that sits back stays compact and breaks quickly. It also helps as Casemiro isn't forced to cover space that he's incapable of at his age.

The problem is the coaches have deluded themselves into thinking this team is better than that approach, particularly Bruno and Rashford. Once Ole tried to be more expansive he got the sack and now EtH is trying to be more on the front foot and is failing too.

We have to either accept we aren't good enough and play on the break or get rid of these players and rebuild with players better suited for the style.
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Yep, nail on the head. I think it is becoming clear now why we didn't sign Casemiro earlier last summer, and Ten Hag likely got convinced after our horror show of a start last year, that he was obviously a huge upgrade on what we had even if it didn't suit the way we should be playing. If we had the pressing ability of some of the great sides, then I think we could get away with the carelessness in posession, but we don't, so our give aways turn into 2 minute spells of hopeless chasing rather than genuine opportunities to win the ball back and counter.
 
I think it's a few things;
  • Zero movement off the ball.
  • No players who can play the ball to those on moving off the ball.
  • Lack of technique for first time passes.
  • No third man runs.
  • Lack of one twos.
  • Passing is too lateral, lack of vertically focused passing, passers don't have the ability to make those passes.
  • Zero repetitions of play, rehearsal of movement/sequences.
 
spiriticon said:
I feel that all the managers eventually succumb to the club DNA of this wild cowboy counterattacking style. Is it fan pressure? Media expectation? I don't know.

The only one who managed to resist and visually change the way we play was LvG, even if it wasn't perfect at the time he got sacked.
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It’s this, we always go back to this drivel of the United way and our dna, we have let our standards drop so low that we allow players to not play to their absolute maximum every game, strutting around and jogging instead of busting a gut. We have some very good players but we allow them to play as individuals rather than a team due to everyone thinking we are mavericks of the past.

Fergie had lots of amazing ‘mavericks’ through the years but every one of them had to pull their weight, do as they were instructed or they’d be in serious shit. Now we let them do as they want.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I think it's a few things;
  • Zero movement off the ball.
  • No players who can play the ball to those on moving off the ball.
  • Lack of technique for first time passes.
  • No third man runs.
  • Lack of one twos.
  • Passing is too lateral, lack of vertically focused passing, passers don't have the ability to make those passes.
  • Zero repetitions of play, rehearsal of movement/sequences.
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All of this…….we have no consistent patterns of play within areas of the pitch.
 
spiriticon said:
I feel that all the managers eventually succumb to the club DNA of this wild cowboy counterattacking style. Is it fan pressure? Media expectation? I don't know.

The only one who managed to resist and visually change the way we play was LvG, even if it wasn't perfect at the time he got sacked.
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Truth
 
Yagami said:
Because we don't put enough emphasis on a players general play when signing them.

Swap managers today and the result is probably the same. Brighton have so many players that excel in tight spaces and are strong under pressure, which gives De Zerbi the platform to implement his style in terms of dominating opposition.

He couldn't do that here because we don't have any midfielders or attackers (bar potentially Amrabat) who possess these attributes. They're all impact players who look for the Hollywood pass or shot because they're too weak, slow, technically deficient to play in tight spaces and with someone pressing them.
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This. It's primarily a player and recruitment issue.

10 years later and still no good RW.

Mount and Onana for £100m was the bulk of our transfer window.

We've had about 10 of those windows signing the likes of Sancho, Antony and Lukaku. If you keep doing that, well it doesn't matter, you'll never build a good enough team. We've been lucky when players like Bruno, at times Pogba, Rashford, Greewnwood etc have carried us, but we do not sign enough good players to build a team.

The blame lies a little with the manager but primarily with the Glazers and the club executives / recruitment for still only signing who the manager wants. It's outdated by about 10 years.
 
ayushreddevil9 said:
This utd DNA shit needs to get fecked. I remember ETH talking about it and was so worried that he will get wrestled into respecting it. Think thats happening.
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Yeah, I agree. He should have been doing his own thing, which is what made him such an outstanding candidate in the first place.

United should be about attacking football and entertainment. Not a certain style of play. How you go about creating that attacking play should be in the hands of the manager.
 
Our tactic is Rashford or bust. Rashford can be fantastic but if we play to his strengths then everything has to go through him. If we are not utilising Rashford this way then we essentially play with a man down.
 
Dannn411 said:
Same problem for the last 10 years. No midfielders good on the ball. Football is a simple game. If you have more of the ball, your chances to win increase because the more you have the ball, the more chances to score a goal with the ball and win the game. Those who play without the ball have a razor thin margin of error every game to get anything out of the game.

I judge managers based on what they do with their midfield. The best managers also have the best midfields. It is no coincidence.
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Agree.

I'd also say the midfielders need the ability to go win the ball back. Ours struggle to do that being one paced.
 
Dannn411 said:
Same problem for the last 10 years. No midfielders good on the ball. Football is a simple game. If you have more of the ball, your chances to win increase because the more you have the ball, the more chances to score a goal with the ball and win the game. Those who play without the ball have a razor thin margin of error every game to get anything out of the game.

I judge managers based on what they do with their midfield. The best managers also have the best midfields. It is no coincidence.
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This. We haven’t had a well-balanced midfield in years. Nor a right-winger of the required level nor decent full-backs but that’s almost by the by.
 
Hammondo said:
This. Though I think we don't lack much strength or speed, aggression yes.
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Todays midfield and CB's were very one paced. Unless they're incredible on the ball that's always going to make the game difficult for us.
 
Marwood said:
Todays midfield and CB's were very one paced. Unless they're incredible on the ball that's always going to make the game difficult for us.
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Well maybe some of them, but tbh there is not much effort in there either.
 
We have a team that is stuck between styles and haven't found or been able to field the starting 11 that allows us to have a cohesive team.

Based on the signings of Onana, Mount and Hojlund in particular it seems we want to be a team who plays out from the back and presses high up the pitch.

Our defense are not good enough at playing out from the back. Martinez is good at this and Lindelof and Varane are ok but our right backs are probably not good enough at this. Also losing Shaw is a big loss although Reguilon was good today. It requires us to play a high line but that is risky without Varane as he provides the pace in the centre.

We also need a press resistant midfield. I love Casemiro but he isn't super press resistant which would be ok if we can get him the right partner however McTominay isn't the answer.

Our pressing is very inconsistent, Bruno presses well and I think Hojlund is good at this but Rashford and Martial refuse to press which is a big issue for us to implement this style of play.

We are still facing a hangover from the years of crap signings and poor decisions on keeping players who should have been sold years ago which means our squad is massively unbalanced. One or two injuries and we don't have the personnel to implement the style that the signings we have made would suggest we are aiming for.
 
OleTheGreat said:
Let's get this straight, we've changed 6-7 managers and our style of play frankly hasn't changed. Brighton outplayed us and it was very evident that only Bruno wanted to press everywhere and in the end he was part of the defense pairing.

What's the flaw in our gameplay? Why aren't we effective in breaking teams? Why can't we press or score goals like all the teams do? What's the fundamental issue?

Please do not say Glazers! I understand where you're coming from but frankly we've overplayed that card. I think we have bigger issues with mentality.
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Nailed it
 
We don’t excel at anything in particular, oh except counter attack which the press don’t want us to play anymore because “it’s not the United way” or whatever..
but we don’t have the players to play anything else..none of them are particularly press resistant, they’re not particularly strong or fast, or tall, they just kind of exist..and sometimes rashford bangs one in, or Bruno produces a nice pass, it’s just not enough in this era, you’ll get found out by teams that are organised and know their roles, and we do, all too often
I’m just watching Newcastle/Brentford and the difference is night and day, they actually look like they’re fighting for each other and every loose ball
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I think it's a few things;
  • Zero movement off the ball.
  • No players who can play the ball to those on moving off the ball.
  • Lack of technique for first time passes.
  • No third man runs.
  • Lack of one twos.
  • Passing is too lateral, lack of vertically focused passing, passers don't have the ability to make those passes.
  • Zero repetitions of play, rehearsal of movement/sequences.
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You're basically describing everything City does, which is the blueprint to winning a football match these days. Arsenal has understood this too, but we dwell on the ball and pass it to our good players who also take too many touches. Even quite simple players like Ake, Akanji, etc works wonders for City because the system simply beats styles like ours.
 
OleTheGreat said:
Let's get this straight, we've changed 6-7 managers and our style of play frankly hasn't changed. Brighton outplayed us and it was very evident that only Bruno wanted to press everywhere and in the end he was part of the defense pairing.

What's the flaw in our gameplay? Why aren't we effective in breaking teams? Why can't we press or score goals like all the teams do? What's the fundamental issue?

Please do not say Glazers! I understand where you're coming from but frankly we've overplayed that card. I think we have bigger issues with mentality.
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We’re not very good.
 
We priotise short-term results which leads to long-term disaster. EtH has been the same.

It all comes from the corporate-led culture at the club. It's money, not sporting success and organisation that is the aim and it comes through on the field.
 
Hammondo said:
Well maybe some of them, but tbh there is not much effort in there either.
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That's half the team and McTominay isn't exactly quick either. With him that's six players.

I don't think it is effort that's the problem. They nearly all put a good shift in. We're just not athletic enough. Nor do we have the ability to make up for it.
 
OleTheGreat said:
Let's get this straight, we've changed 6-7 managers and our style of play frankly hasn't changed. Brighton outplayed us and it was very evident that only Bruno wanted to press everywhere and in the end he was part of the defense pairing.

What's the flaw in our gameplay? Why aren't we effective in breaking teams? Why can't we press or score goals like all the teams do? What's the fundamental issue?

Please do not say Glazers! I understand where you're coming from but frankly we've overplayed that card. I think we have bigger issues with mentality.
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You think Ole and LvG had the same style?
 
Marwood said:
That's half the team and McTominay isn't exactly quick either. With him that's six players.

I don't think it is effort that's the problem. They nearly all put a good shift in. We're just not athletic enough. Nor do we have the ability to make up for it.
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Well that is not accurate, not all out defense and midfield is slow, its just pretty much 1 from each. McTominay is not slow, he's not fast but in general teams don't have many quick central mids.
 
Hammondo said:
Well that is not accurate, not all out defense and midfield is slow, its just pretty much 1 from each. McTominay is not slow, he's not fast but in general teams don't have many quick central mids.
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Martinez, Lindelof, Casemiro, Eriksen and Bruno. There's no pace there. Right innthe spine of the team.

Agree with you on McTominay, not slow but not quick either.

We could say there's Varane to return but he's moving more and more like a guy in his 30's.

So it very much looks to me like a lack of pace certianly today was a problem.
 
The problem is the lack of structure throughout the club. Each manager wants to put their own stamp on the style of play, leaving us with failed signings that we can’t get rid of and players that just don’t click on the pitch.

We need people involved with the club off the pitch that have a clear vision of what we want to do. A DoF that hasn’t been involved with the club in some capacity throughout our entire period of failure would be a good example.
 
Marwood said:
Martinez, Lindelof, Casemiro, Eriksen and Bruno. There's no pace there. Right innthe spine of the team.

Agree with you on McTominay, not slow but not quick either.

We could say there's Varane to return but he's moving more and more like a guy in his 30's.

So it very much looks to me like a lack of pace certianly today was a problem.
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Casemiro is slow, I would say the others are average looking at the rest of the league.
 
Hired the wrong managers. They've all been either proponents of rubbish football or all over the place tactically. Only Jose and LVG managed to imprint their style... they were just the wrong styles. If De Zerbi came in, for example, and coached us to the level of Brighton, then we'd be a lot better. And nobody would care about 'the United way' or history etc. I don't think anybody does now, but they know good football and tactics when they see it. We're just not seeing it.
 
I hate to say it but signing Rice over Case would have fixed some of this
 
cpresc said:
without the benefit of hindsight, i think you’d have been ok with:

- Greenwood
- Sancho
- Antony
- Amad
- Pellestri
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Only one of them actually looked good for us - Greenwood. Amad and Pellestri are interested.
 
pocco said:
Hired the wrong managers. They've all been either proponents of rubbish football or all over the place tactically. Only Jose and LVG managed to imprint their style... they were just the wrong styles. If De Zerbi came in, for example, and coached us to the level of Brighton, then we'd be a lot better. And nobody would care about 'the United way' or history etc. I don't think anybody does now, but they know good football and tactics when they see it. We're just not seeing it.
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Why is Ten Hag’s style wrong? I think it’s mad to think De Zerbi would come in and change our fortunes, it’s so much more complicated than that.
 
We need a style of play decided by the DOF. Bring in a manager who plays this way and able to vary it slightly to meet different scenarios playing different teams. First manager will bring in a few players in that suit this style, move on those that dont, probaly struggle and eventually sacked.
Second manager plays virtually the same way as the first, brings in a few players, moves on the rest that dont suit, but has also the first managers choice who can play this way. This either succeeds greatly or slightly, maybe sacked or maybe stays and improves.
Third manager play virtually the same as the first two and should have success, especially bringing in his players to play with the settled lot already here and comfortable with the system.

What is wrong with how we play is since Fergie we have brought in managers that are poles apart from how each play. This means the players they buy in dont suit the style that is already here. This then results in manager sacked and the next one comes in and you know that 2/3 years maximum they will be gone as they are battling uphill from the start. We should have had a settled system and style of play, with more success and a regular top 4 finish at the least 5 years ago, if we had have planned correctly with managers, instead of going for the biggest name available.
 
Quite simply we can’t attract or nurture the best players anymore. Generational talents would want to come to United not all that long ago. Now it’s City, Bayern or Madrid that attracts these players. This results in our spine being average at best comparing to what we were operating with when we were last winning leagues and going deep in the champions league.

Vidic & Rio, Scholes & Carrick and Van Persie & Rooney, 6 players down the spine of a team that we’ve never come close to replacing in the last decade. We’ve tried to sign superstars but they have often been players who have had their best days at another club. That was unthinkable even a decade ago.

I literally don’t know how we make sure Bellingham and Kane come to United this summer apart from being able to offer them Qatari billions which is a sad indictment of how far we’ve sunk.
 
What’s wrong is who we sign. We have too many players who want to play “their way” in an individualistic sense. It makes it impossible to compete against well-drilled sides.
 
I truly don't understand what's the problem is with the way we play as a collective!!

We make a lot of simple mistakes and we don't do the right things at the right times, don't press the right way consistently, don't keep the and work the ball properly, everything seems rushed instead of being international or purposeful, we don't track back well, we lose duels, it feels like the way we play should be studied as an example of what not to do in a football match.

I blame everyone for this horrible performance,Ten Hag and the players were truly shit this season and I don't see anything in this team that says there is a hope.
 
1. Too many of our players are not press resistant.

2. Too many of our players are bad passers.

3. We have way too little possession, which means:
a) We can't dictate tempo
b) We can't dominate the midfield
c) We can't maintain a high line
d) We can't create enough chances
e) We concede too many chances
f) We spend a lot of the time chasing after the ball, which drains energy and inflicts muscle injuries

It ALL comes down to possession. And Erik ten Hag has -- like our previous managers -- been hoodwinked into this entire "United DNA" crap. He clearly wants possession, but our players are more suited to counterattacking, so they regress to that when hitting a wall.

And Ten Hag encourages it. Not only by his selections and decisions like always playing Rashford and Bruno. But also by saying stupid things like he wants to be the best transitional team in the world.

That type of football is dead in the water against a team that will dominate possession. It might work in certain games here and there.

But over the course of a 38-game season, you need consistency. And NOTHING is more consistently a marker for success than possession.

With possession comes more goals scored, and fewer conceded.

It's really dead simple. My 14 year old nephew even understands this.
 
Significant concerns in this season start:

- United sack Greenwood even though they know he is innocent. What kind of signal is that?

- Antony is no longer available

- Sancho and ETH become unfriended, and Sancho is out of the squad. A trouble that ETH started by publicly criticizing a player's attitude. I can understand why Sancho will not accept that. And what did ETH even want to achieve by doing that?

- Martinez has had a terrible start to the season, and if he continues like this, we might as well try with Maguire again.

- Casemiro seems heavy and unfocused. He makes so many wrong passes, which is quite unusual for him. Casemiro is a key player for us and it is fatal that he is now playing so poorly.

- We only have 1 striker: Højlund. And he is not yet in the same shape as the others and very young. The back-up for Højlund is Martial, and he does not want to work for the team when he plays.

- Onana has had a very mixed start at United, and a goal is almost scored on more than every second shot.

- Shaw gets injured. And we have had to bring in a replacement for him, who is good offensively, but definitely not defensively.

- The players seem in worse shape than the opponents.

- The team makes a lot of wrong passes.

- We play slow and without enough creativity.

- It is easy for the opponent to create chances against us. It wasn't last season.
 
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