What is our problem ?

There are 5 main problems on the playing side which is

Lack of workrate
Lack of athleticism
Lack of fitness (not everyone)
Lack of technical ability
Lack of concentration

The main problem on the management side is poor game management whether that's tactics or making proactive substitutions

There is also clearly a problem with the medical team which needs a thorough investigation in the summer
 
It's fairly simple and solvable in the transfer market I think.
  • We're fielding someone in the most important position on the pitch whose legs have completely gone, and is possibly already mentally checked out (Casemiro)
  • Rashford has given up on football, meaning one of our main attacking outlets is frankly non-existent and we're also exposed from a defensive POV on that flank
  • Almost our entire back line is crocked and we're unable to field a consistent back four - 26 different variations this season so far
  • We have no deputy for Hojlund (Martial doesn't count) who is still young and adjusting to a new league
  • Our most creative outlet (Bruno) works hard but gives the ball away far too often
The main challenge we have is are the players available and can we get them. We need solid but not spectacular, mentally strong players who can be relied on to be fit.

In order of priority I'd go DM, CB, Striker, LW, LB. Sell Rashford, Casemiro and Varane. Bruno I'd keep as he becomes less of a liability in a more stable, hard working structure and Mount can deputise.
 
The manager. Specifically the setup. It's as simple as that.

Even with Pep or Klopp, it would take a miracle for this squad to be genuinely challenging. But the collective quality in the squad is far better than what we are seeing demonstrated on the pitch. We demonstrated this for large parts of last season.

It all comes down the the stubbornness of the manager. Last season, he came in and tried to implement a similar style of play for a couple of games, and we got spanked by two small clubs. He quickly realised the squad wasn't up to it, and reverted to a style we had been used to playing... a deep lying, compact 4231, which relied on counter attacks, where the main attacking threat came from wide areas where the "wingers" (especially Rashford) were able to play more narrow on the last line of defence, and the width was provided by the the FBs. I mean, Rashford has been awful this year, but the manager has to take a huge chunk of the blame for that. Playing to none of his strengths, and to all of his weaknesses.

Last years shape played to the strength of our midfielders too, as there was significantly less ground to cover defensively in the middle of the park. So the lack of legs was not exposed. Only City and Newcastle conceded less goals than us, and that is with a midfield 2 typically consisting of Casemiro and Eriksen. It also mitigated the lack of pace in our defence, as they clearly aren't suited to playing a high line.

But for whatever reason, without anywhere close to sufficient enough change in personnel, ETH has decided that the squad is now suited to play a completely different style. He wants to play a high press with his 5 attacking players, but with a solo DM, and a back 4 who simply aren't athletic or fast enough to play high enough up the pitch retain a compact shape.

So we get what we see every week. An absolute chasm between the front 5 and the back 6. So when opposition beat the initial press, a single opposing player can typically carry the ball unchallenged from one box to the other. It is just suicidal tactics.

And out of pure stubbornness, the manager will just not hold his hands up to the fact that he has got it all wrong, and go back to the way we were playing last year.
 
Issues in my opinion:

- Lack of shape / coaching (The press is just so random, huge gaps all over the pitch).
- Lack of work rate across all players. Some players work hard but we carry the likes of Rashford.
- Lack of quality on the ball. We've too many players that technically can't keep the ball well (Rashford, AWB, Casemiro & Bruno being the worst).
 
sammyhol said:
The manager. Specifically the setup. It's as simple as that.

Even with Pep or Klopp, it would take a miracle for this squad to be genuinely challenging. But the collective quality in the squad is far better than what we are seeing demonstrated on the pitch. We demonstrated this for large parts of last season.

It all comes down the the stubbornness of the manager. Last season, he came in and tried to implement a similar style of play for a couple of games, and we got spanked by two small clubs. He quickly realised the squad wasn't up to it, and reverted to a style we had been used to playing... a deep lying, compact 4231, which relied on counter attacks, where the main attacking threat came from wide areas where the "wingers" (especially Rashford) were able to play more narrow on the last line of defence, and the width was provided by the the FBs. I mean, Rashford has been awful this year, but the manager has to take a huge chunk of the blame for that. Playing to none of his strengths, and to all of his weaknesses.

Last years shape played to the strength of our midfielders too, as there was significantly less ground to cover defensively in the middle of the park. So the lack of legs was not exposed. Only City and Newcastle conceded less goals than us, and that is with a midfield 2 typically consisting of Casemiro and Eriksen. It also mitigated the lack of pace in our defence, as they clearly aren't suited to playing a high line.

But for whatever reason, without anywhere close to sufficient enough change in personnel, ETH has decided that the squad is now suited to play a completely different style. He wants to play a high press with his 5 attacking players, but with a solo DM, and a back 4 who simply aren't athletic or fast enough to play high enough up the pitch retain a compact shape.

So we get what we see every week. An absolute chasm between the front 5 and the back 6. So when opposition beat the initial press, a single opposing player can typically carry the ball unchallenged from one box to the other. It is just suicidal tactics.

And out of pure stubbornness, the manager will just not hold his hands up to the fact that he has got it all wrong, and go back to the way we were playing last year.
Click to expand...
Absolutely 100% could not agree more
 
Hughes35 said:
Issues in my opinion:

- Lack of shape / coaching (The press is just so random, huge gaps all over the pitch).
- Lack of work rate across all players. Some players work hard but we carry the likes of Rashford.
Click to expand...

You do realise lack of work rate is likely the major contributor to the press/shape being incorrect
 
For me it's one of three things

Either we don't know or understand what way we are trying to play

Or

We do and couldn't be arsed doing it.

Or

Our "Game plan " is awful and hit and miss at best.

Or maybe a combination of all three
 
kirk buttercup said:
For me it's one of three things

Either we don't know or understand what way we are trying to play

Or

We do and couldn't be arsed doing it.

Or

Our "Game plan " is awful and hit and miss at best.

Or maybe a combination of all three
Click to expand...
Or maybe our Coach is just Shite!
 
sugar_kane said:
It's fairly simple and solvable in the transfer market I think.
  • We're fielding someone in the most important position on the pitch whose legs have completely gone, and is possibly already mentally checked out (Casemiro)
  • Rashford has given up on football, meaning one of our main attacking outlets is frankly non-existent and we're also exposed from a defensive POV on that flank
  • Almost our entire back line is crocked and we're unable to field a consistent back four - 26 different variations this season so far
  • We have no deputy for Hojlund (Martial doesn't count) who is still young and adjusting to a new league
  • Our most creative outlet (Bruno) works hard but gives the ball away far too often
The main challenge we have is are the players available and can we get them. We need solid but not spectacular, mentally strong players who can be relied on to be fit.

In order of priority I'd go DM, CB, Striker, LW, LB. Sell Rashford, Casemiro and Varane. Bruno I'd keep as he becomes less of a liability in a more stable, hard working structure and Mount can deputise.
Click to expand...

We should have a huge clear out, but the number one Priority is to get Omar, Dan and Jason all employed asap and create a org chart that has set definitions of roles at the club. Hojlund is a million miles from being ready to lead the line and the reality is we need to replace the spine with one Elite CB, Elite CM and Elite CFW.

These 3 players must be Athletic, physical, preferably have CL/PL experience, age 23/28 cost £100m net after we have sold the following ; Varane, Lindelof, Casemiro, DVB, Hanibal, A Martial, F Pellistri,

The club might get £70m for that lot but they will free up £1.2m on the wages weekly which will give us approximately £200m for these three key positions.

Perfect Window - J Branthwaite(65m),
J Todibo(40m), Rabiot Free, V Osimhen (95m)

Massive improvement Window -
Bremer (50m), J Neves(85m), R Barclay(Free), I Toney (65m)

Acceptable most probable Window -
J C Todibo(40m), A Aelmino(25m),
T Adarbiyo(Free), J Gomes (40m),A Onana(55m), B Sesco(42m),
 
Cassidy said:
You do realise lack of work rate is likely the major contributor to the press/shape being incorrect
Click to expand...

Yes, the two are linked but it's also coaching. Even when we do press it's disconnected. Also, the manager has had enough time to either get players capable of doing the press he wants or abandoning it for another tactic. To keep going is madness.
 
Hughes35 said:
Yes, the two are linked but it's also coaching. Even when we do press it's disconnected. Also, the manager has had enough time to either get players capable of doing the press he wants or abandoning it for another tactic. To keep going is madness.
Click to expand...

Actually the best thing to do is to carry on and replace the players who cannot function in the system as you go (if you are planning long term)
 
Our problem is the back four currently.

We need young, fit defenders who can play the majority of the games in a settled back four.

That includes a replacement for Shaw, a replacement for Lindelof/Maguire and Varane, all are injured frequently, even Martinez this season.

Then Casemiros legs are starting to go a bit.

If we can have a settled back four and a destroyer in front of them we have Bruno, Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund and Rashford (although he's hit and miss).

The problem is we need to settle into the games and be able to press high up the pitch and right now we can't do that.
 
The recent emergence of Garnacho, Mainoo and a very composed performance by Kambawala yesterday shows that United's future isn't about star names but promising youth.

Best team performance of the season for me is still Palace in the League Cup, and although they rested a few players, we've since embarrassed ourselves against Wigan and Newport County playing the "star names".

The problem is Ten Hag doesn't have the stones to do a Kanchelskis/Ince/Hughes style clear out like SAF did all those years ago.
 
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Ultimately, our problem continues year over year:

- We always keep players way past their due date. E.g. Rashford, McTominay, Martial,
- We buy players way past their due date. E.g. Matic, Mata, Casemiro
- Buying young players who just isn't ready e.g. Pellestri, Amad, Antony, Hoijund, VDB and etc.
- Hire a manager who wants to spend few hundred million pound.

What we should be doing:
- Sell players who are just has peaked. Any players above 32 should be consider for sale.
- Buy players who are between age of 18-24 yo.
- Stop giving millions to managers capped at 100 million plus sales of players.
- Sell young players who aren't making it at United with buy back clause.
 
Cassidy said:
Actually the best thing to do is to carry on and replace the players who cannot function in the system as you go (if you are planning long term)
Click to expand...

That's what I said. I said he's had enough time to replace the players.
 
sammyhol said:
The manager. Specifically the setup. It's as simple as that.

Even with Pep or Klopp, it would take a miracle for this squad to be genuinely challenging. But the collective quality in the squad is far better than what we are seeing demonstrated on the pitch. We demonstrated this for large parts of last season.

It all comes down the the stubbornness of the manager. Last season, he came in and tried to implement a similar style of play for a couple of games, and we got spanked by two small clubs. He quickly realised the squad wasn't up to it, and reverted to a style we had been used to playing... a deep lying, compact 4231, which relied on counter attacks, where the main attacking threat came from wide areas where the "wingers" (especially Rashford) were able to play more narrow on the last line of defence, and the width was provided by the the FBs. I mean, Rashford has been awful this year, but the manager has to take a huge chunk of the blame for that. Playing to none of his strengths, and to all of his weaknesses.

Last years shape played to the strength of our midfielders too, as there was significantly less ground to cover defensively in the middle of the park. So the lack of legs was not exposed. Only City and Newcastle conceded less goals than us, and that is with a midfield 2 typically consisting of Casemiro and Eriksen. It also mitigated the lack of pace in our defence, as they clearly aren't suited to playing a high line.

But for whatever reason, without anywhere close to sufficient enough change in personnel, ETH has decided that the squad is now suited to play a completely different style. He wants to play a high press with his 5 attacking players, but with a solo DM, and a back 4 who simply aren't athletic or fast enough to play high enough up the pitch retain a compact shape.

So we get what we see every week. An absolute chasm between the front 5 and the back 6. So when opposition beat the initial press, a single opposing player can typically carry the ball unchallenged from one box to the other. It is just suicidal tactics.

And out of pure stubbornness, the manager will just not hold his hands up to the fact that he has got it all wrong, and go back to the way we were playing last year.
Click to expand...

It's exactly that and what makes it even stranger is whilst Ajax played with similar gaps to create space, they played two midfielders or a tucked in FB to protect the counter.

In places we're stuck to an ill suited setup whilst in others (like wingers staying wide rather narrow) he's deviated massively.

It"s like we hired Ten Hags assistant who had part understanding of the tactics but not enough to recreate it.
 
It was interesting watching Real Madrid last night because I saw a lot of parallels in how I think Ten Hag is maybe trying to get us to play (the 'transition' football he talked about).

I say it was interesting because it highlighted everything they do well and we do badly in order to play that way if that is indeed what we are trying to do.

They pressed properly, with players generally going together at the same time, with no gaps, forcing city wide.

When the ball went wide the fullbacks didn't commit, the team stayed really compact meaning it needed two stunning goals from distance for City to get the draw.

The midfield was nicely balanced with Valverde and Camavinga really able to cover the ground quickly and Kross providing the experience and mopping up.

The midfield players were all really aggressive and won a lot of tackles.

The forwards were fast and direct and highly skillful, they attacked with purpose and looked genuinely dangerous just about every time they got forward. Didn't give the ball away that often considering they were often running at two or three defenders at a time.

Pretty much all the players were good enough technically to handle the ball well under pressure and it made a huge difference to transitioning once the ball had been won.

So yeah, my reckoning was that we are not very good at most of what makes that style work effectively.
 
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