What is Diogo Dalot good at?

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justsomebloke said:
Okay, so here's a start: PL passing stats this season.

Premier League Passing Stats | FBref.com

His volume of completed passes is not high, at 40.5/90. There are 22 PL FB/WBs (with at least 2 90s this season, a qualifier used also for all subsequent position-specific figures) who have more.

His pass completion is pretty bad - 71,8%, good for 199th in the League. A quick count yields 33 FBs with better stats.

He's got a particular problem with short passes, where he's got 80.4% completion - good for 221st in the PL. I'm not going to count through more than 200 players to see how many FBs are above him, but obviously they are many.

He's not that much better with long passes completion%, where he ranks 192nd. For volume of completed long passes, he's got 5.93/90, good for 131st in the league. I'm counting 14 PL FBs or WBs who have more. Incidentally, Harry Maguire also has more. A lot more, actually (14.3/90).

Completed passes into the final 1/3: 132nd in the PL, with 3.22/90. I count 14 FB/WBs with better figures.

Progressive passes: I count 16 FB/WBs with higher figures/90 than Dalot's 3.90.


I'm finding it hard to see these as descriptive of a FB with a high-level impact when it comes to passing. But feel free to deepen the analysis. He'll probably rank higher for Crosses into the box, f.e.
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It's not useful to look at Premier League stats this season yet because it is too early for things to mean anything, especially considering we had 2 games of disaster ball (a third of the season), another third of the season so far spent against Liverpool and Arsenal, and another third against "average" teams. It's been 6 games. So everyone's stats are all over the place and influenced by random things like going counter attacking against Liverpool, or the disaster games early. Just look at Lisandro Martinez's stats, it would paint him as a shit passer if we looked at it which we all know isn't the case.

Also when you go on an FBref's individual player profile, they break it down for you for a comparison over the past year against top 5 leagues, or just the individual PL seasons against other PL players only. So yeah. Save yourself the time...
 
bosnian_red said:
It's not useful to look at Premier League stats this season yet because it is too early for things to mean anything, especially considering we had 2 games of disaster ball (a third of the season), another third of the season so far spent against Liverpool and Arsenal, and another third against "average" teams. It's been 6 games. So everyone's stats are all over the place and influenced by random things like going counter attacking against Liverpool, or the disaster games early. Just look at Lisandro Martinez's stats, it would paint him as a shit passer if we looked at it which we all know isn't the case.

Also when you go on an FBref's individual player profile, they break it down for you for a comparison over the past year against top 5 leagues, or just the individual PL seasons against other PL players only. So yeah. Save yourself the time...
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As said, it's just a beginning. Feel free to deepen it, for example by comparing it to his 21/22 stats. Of course there are reservations with the low number of games yet played this season, but the numbers are mostly not that different from his 21/22 stats - and the argument here is that he's improved significantly over last season, which should in some way be reflected statistically. Also they are hardly "all over the place" - at least there's not a lot of surprises when you look at the players ranking higher than him.

And dammit, you're right - I hadn't noticed the boxes that allows you to switch to domestic leagues/individual seasons for the scouting report. Still, doesn't change the results.
 
People trying to pretended Dalot was good last season are so shameless
 
I guess many people in the comments feels now that they have to eat their words. But I still think its fair to question him. Hes been good for 4 games when United had a lots of energy. Dalot is not for me a player who steps up when needed. Hes been great in the back 4 whos been brilliant so far. What happens when 1 or 2 of them have an off day? It would be wonderful if he could keep this up in most games. Or be 80% of the effort in every game. I still also think he lacks offensively. I know the stats says he produces chances. But what is a chance? A pass that leads to a finnish? That says nothing about the quality of chance. I applaud him for hes efforts and workrate in the last 4 games and I think the current back 4 is feeding of each others energy, but I wonder whats gonna happen the day we play without Martinez. He seems like the heart of our defense. I hope we can keep this up and get a good performance against City this weekend.
 
justsomebloke said:
Indeed I seem to have wasted my time - not because fbref has done the work for me (it should not be too complicated to understand the difference between percentile placement in the top 5 leagues, and performance relative to other FBs in the PL), but because you're obviously not interested in understanding the data you're bandying about.
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What exactly don't I understand? If he's 89 percentile at passes into the final 3rd and there's 200 full backs in the top 5 leagues, then he's better than 176 of them at that stat. It's not complicated and those same PL full backs are included in the list.

Please tell me what I'm not getting here.
 
justsomebloke said:
As said, it's just a beginning. Feel free to deepen it, for example by comparing it to his 21/22 stats. Of course there are reservations with the low number of games yet played this season, but the numbers are mostly not that different from his 21/22 stats - and the argument here is that he's improved significantly over last season, which should in some way be reflected statistically. Also they are hardly "all over the place" - at least there's not a lot of surprises when you look at the players ranking higher than him.

And dammit, you're right - I hadn't noticed the boxes that allows you to switch to domestic leagues/individual seasons for the scouting report. Still, doesn't change the results.
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They are all over the place when you look at other players like Eriksen or Martinez who you would expect would end the year in elite company, but currently are pretty much at the 50 percentile mark because of circumstance. And by the same reason you can ignore them, you can ignore the numbers on dalot at this early stage. It's way too small a sample size. And if you look at last season - 88th percentile in progressive passing, 84th percentile in passes into the final third. Those numbers will only go up this year with Ten Hag. Those are already very good numbers at the most important part of his possession role, progressing the ball up the pitch. His ball carrying is improving (eye test clear), his defending is improving and partnered with Varane next to him (eye test clear). His overall game is getting better... the point is that he is developing as a player. He always had good traits, but was part of disaster teams, porous defences, and he himself wasn't as rounded as a player. But they're all parts of his game that can and are being improved on as he naturally gets older.

Let's not forget, he's the same age as Malacia. People were judging him as a finished player and ignoring that he was just a young fullback in disaster teams. He's always had potential, and now finally has a coach, system to get the best out of him, coinciding with him being at an age where he can step up as a player too.
 
Larseno said:
I guess many people in the comments feels now that they have to eat their words. But I still think its fair to question him. Hes been good for 4 games when United had a lots of energy. Dalot is not for me a player who steps up when needed. Hes been great in the back 4 whos been brilliant so far. What happens when 1 or 2 of them have an off day? It would be wonderful if he could keep this up in most games. Or be 80% of the effort in every game. I still also think he lacks offensively. I know the stats says he produces chances. But what is a chance? A pass that leads to a finnish? That says nothing about the quality of chance. I applaud him for hes efforts and workrate in the last 4 games and I think the current back 4 is feeding of each others energy, but I wonder whats gonna happen the day we play without Martinez. He seems like the heart of our defense. I hope we can keep this up and get a good performance against City this weekend.
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Yeah I actually think the Martinez-Varane partnership is responsible for the stability in the backline just as much as coaching. His defending will always be his biggest weakness but with the right people and set up, can be mitigated to be less noticable.
 
bosnian_red said:
They are all over the place when you look at other players like Eriksen or Martinez who you would expect would end the year in elite company, but currently are pretty much at the 50 percentile mark because of circumstance. And by the same reason you can ignore them, you can ignore the numbers on dalot at this early stage. It's way too small a sample size. And if you look at last season - 88th percentile in progressive passing, 84th percentile in passes into the final third. Those numbers will only go up this year with Ten Hag. Those are already very good numbers at the most important part of his possession role, progressing the ball up the pitch. His ball carrying is improving (eye test clear), his defending is improving and partnered with Varane next to him (eye test clear). His overall game is getting better... the point is that he is developing as a player. He always had good traits, but was part of disaster teams, porous defences, and he himself wasn't as rounded as a player. But they're all parts of his game that can and are being improved on as he naturally gets older.

Let's not forget, he's the same age as Malacia. People were judging him as a finished player and ignoring that he was just a young fullback in disaster teams. He's always had potential, and now finally has a coach, system to get the best out of him, coinciding with him being at an age where he can step up as a player too.
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Certainly you can't base an assessment of Dalot's stats solely or even substantially on 6 games in 2022/23, and absolutely his 2021/22 stats should be looked at (and provide a much firmer basis). Which, again, was why I wrote that this was just a start at a more proper look at his stats.
But then again - by and large they are not all that different from his 2021/22 stats, and if there's an argument that he is better so far this season than he was last season, then there should be some trace of that? Also, there should be some pointers towards how he's functioning in ETHs system compared to Rangnicks. Where they do differ, they mostly do so in a negative direction. So far, "those numbers" have not gone up under ten Hag.

Also, and this is the issue with percentiles when they are used not to get a picture of what a player does relatively well or relatively not so well, but to support an argument that the player is a top end performer in a certain area of the game relative to the demands of a particular club: What sort of percentile do you need to be to be considered, say, a top PL FB in terms of your passing game? If you're 83 percentile in something, that's pretty good, but you probably have something like 10-15 FBs in the PL who are better than you statistically. Is that good enough to be an integral piece of Man Utds starting XI? Does it make you a top PL FB in that category?

Finally - the context of this discussion is claims like " Finding a free man high up the pitch is a crucial part of building attacks and Dalot is fantastic at it. Stats show he was doing it last season too", " Dalot has actually been providing assists and assist worthy crosses all season", " I think his pass completion figures aren't as high as others (61 percentile) because he attempts more long and medium passes " and " He's objectively, comparatively, drilled downingly good at passing. ".
 
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Personally do not trust him and that wont change unless he keeps up these performances into next season
We should trigger his one year extension and give him a new deal once he shows consistent performances over at least a year
 
Cancelo was at fault for the Spain winner, and also early in the match lost the ball just outside his own box with loose play. Had a mare defensively and cost Portugal. So Dalot is good at being better than Cancelo defensively at least.
 
justsomebloke said:
Certainly you can't base an assessment of Dalot's stats solely or even substantially on 6 games in 2022/23, and absolutely his 2021/22 stats should be looked at (and provide a much firmer basis). Which, again, was why I wrote that this was just a start at a more proper look at his stats.
But then again - by and large they are not all that different from his 2021/22 stats, and if there's an argument that he is better so far this season than he was last season, then there should be some trace of that? Also, there should be some pointers towards how he's functioning in ETHs system compared to Rangnicks. Where they do differ, they mostly do so in a negative direction. So far, "those numbers" have not gone up under ten Hag.

Also, and this is the issue with percentiles when they are used not to get a picture of what a player does relatively well or relatively not so well, but to support an argument that the player is a top end performer in a certain area of the game relative to the demands of a particular club: What sort of percentile do you need to be to be considered, say, a top PL FB in terms of your passing game? If you're 83 percentile in something, that's pretty good, but you probably have something like 10-15 FBs in the PL who are better than you statistically. Is that good enough to be an integral piece of Man Utds starting XI? Does it make you a top PL FB in that category?
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The stats compare other players who play in a similar position. So it would only be comparing fullbacks. 20 teams in the prem, 2 fullbacks per team, so you're looking at 40-50 fullbacks whose numbers will influence, but there's only 40 starting fullbacks. . And with a small sample size of 6 games, the amount of minutes that passes their threshold to contribute to the data is really small so it skews the data. Being 85th percentile among 40 fullbacks would make there only 6 fullbacks with better numbers (LH or RH are together). Can look at with some common sense that TAA, Cancelo, Reece James, Zinchenko, Robertson will always dominate the "progressive actions" from fullback.

Also, the argument that he is better doesn't need to be shown using analytics that you see on FBref. It's very hard to gauge defending using that. Hell, even "progressive carries or passes" are just a number that can be skewed by a players style without it being beneficial. This isn't american football where moving forward 10 feet is always the right thing to do. If you run forward 10 feet with the ball or pass it forward 10-20 feet, but it is the wrong choice or a pass into a player who is in a cul-de-sac, then it's a pretty useless action. Defensive stats are much better measured as a collective, and then of course just watching them and analyzing them to say if there is improvement or not. But individual stats, nah. Tackles, interceptions, even pressures... having a high number of those doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. As a collective you can look at how many big chances we concede, where and how we concede them, what was the reason for chances being conceded, who made the mistakes, etc. Anyone watching United (after the first 2 collective failure games) can tell that Dalot has been solid defensively the past 4 games and has been secure in possession for us. On the ball, he has room to improve, he has done well enough but we have been playing relatively cautiously so it's been more about finding control so far.
 
Cassidy said:
Personally do not trust him and that wont change unless he keeps up these performances into next season
We should trigger his one year extension and give him a new deal once he shows consistent performances over at least a year
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He's the same age as Malacia. Surely you can see that he has a good work rate, has good attributes that can be developed that it is worth keeping him around and trying to develop him properly? People view him like a 26 year old player that should be in his prime because he had some struggles in a struggling team as a young kid coming from Porto's youth team to Manchester United in the Premier League. It's like all rational context that is applied to every younger player disappeared with Dalot for whatever reason. He improved last season on previous years (normal, 22), and is stepping up further now that we finally have a good coach for the first time in years, he is 23, and as a team we are looking more in control defensively. And he has played his part in that.
 
bosnian_red said:
He's the same age as Malacia. Surely you can see that he has a good work rate, has good attributes that can be developed that it is worth keeping him around and trying to develop him properly? People view him like a 26 year old player that should be in his prime because he had some struggles in a struggling team as a young kid coming from Porto's youth team to Manchester United in the Premier League. It's like all rational context that is applied to every younger player disappeared with Dalot for whatever reason. He improved last season on previous years (normal, 22), and is stepping up further now that we finally have a good coach for the first time in years, he is 23, and as a team we are looking more in control defensively. And he has played his part in that.
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Ive seen he has underperformed for many seasons so 6 games isn’t going to change my mind. See Luke Shaw

Surely you must see that he needs to show performances over an extended period to warrant a long term deal?
 
If he has a good game against City then I think we don't need to be worried about the position for the rest of the season.

Thought we made a huge mistake not buying a right back in the summer but he is proving capable so far.
 
Elcabron said:
If he has a good game against City then I think we don't need to be worried about the position for the rest of the season.

Thought we made a huge mistake not buying a right back in the summer but he is proving capable so far.
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Would be harsh to judge him based on that game to be fair.
 
Cassidy said:
Ive seen he has underperformed for many seasons so 6 games isn’t going to change my mind. See Luke Shaw

Surely you must see that he needs to show performances over an extended period to warrant a long term deal?
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He should get a long term deal if the club thinks he has the potential to develop into a useful squad member. Which is pretty clear to me that he does have that potential. He's not at an age in his career that he has to be at his peak yet so far. And especially not true in previous years. Why should anyone have expected him to be a top fullback between ages 18 to 22? Andy Robertson at this point for Dalot had just been signed by Liverpool for example. Now is of course when Dalot has to start stepping up gradually, but he's a few years off what I'd expect his peak to be anyway. And besides - stepping up and playing well is exactly what he has been doing for United since Ten Hag came in, right from pre season.

The discussion should be "young fullback making the step up at a normal age", rather than "he's underperformed for 6 years and I don't trust him". People gave him 0 allowance for being a young fullback which is pretty crazy. He's the same age as Malacia. They should be viewed as the exact same. Young full backs who are developing and both show potential, but shouldn't be expected to be at their peaks for a few years yet. So if they show talent and the right attitude, then of course they should and will stick around.
 
Elcabron said:
If he has a good game against City then I think we don't need to be worried about the position for the rest of the season.

Thought we made a huge mistake not buying a right back in the summer but he is proving capable so far.
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Ya let’s judge the rest of the season on one game
 
mu4c_20le said:
Yeah I actually think the Martinez-Varane partnership is responsible for the stability in the backline just as much as coaching. His defending will always be his biggest weakness but with the right people and set up, can be mitigated to be less noticable.
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I think you are on to something. Its prob a number of factors. The biggest factor I think is that they defend together and give so much energy to each other, prob giving them selves an adrenaline boost. Martinez is leading this. He might not be as skilled as other defender, but he balance this with being the hardest worker and never compromising and its rubbing off on the other players. I think Varane and Martinez balance each other very well.
 
bosnian_red said:
He should get a long term deal if the club thinks he has the potential to develop into a useful squad member. Which is pretty clear to me that he does have that potential. He's not at an age in his career that he has to be at his peak yet so far. And especially not true in previous years. Why should anyone have expected him to be a top fullback between ages 18 to 22? Andy Robertson at this point for Dalot had just been signed by Liverpool for example. Now is of course when Dalot has to start stepping up gradually, but he's a few years off what I'd expect his peak to be anyway. And besides - stepping up and playing well is exactly what he has been doing for United since Ten Hag came in, right from pre season.

The discussion should be "young fullback making the step up at a normal age", rather than "he's underperformed for 6 years and I don't trust him". People gave him 0 allowance for being a young fullback which is pretty crazy. He's the same age as Malacia. They should be viewed as the exact same. Young full backs who are developing and both show potential, but shouldn't be expected to be at their peaks for a few years yet. So if they show talent and the right attitude, then of course they should and will stick around.
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Its not clear to me hence my opinion.
Thats because I have not seen enough over time as I said previously.
Also the club do not need to rush to give him a new long term deal either. We have Laird so we should be making an assessment towards the end of the season really in my opinion.
 
justsomebloke said:
If you're 83 percentile in something, that's pretty good, but you probably have something like 10-15 FBs in the PL who are better than you statistically. Is that good enough to be an integral piece of Man Utds starting XI? Does it make you a top PL FB in that category?
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100 full backs in the PL supposedly :lol:

And I don't understand the data
 
Leethal said:
I watched him with my god-given eyes, and he’s played well this season from what I can see.

I don’t need statistics to tell me that.
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I agree with you. Stats actually is not the whole true picture. What is an assist? The man who passes the ball to the scorer gets the assist.
Dalot does put in some decent balls but he also needs to improve. He doesn't have to find a player. He needs to put the ball in the right space. It's another player's responsibility to be in that right space.
 
justsomebloke said:
Just to give the facts, which you are discussing even though you think they don't say anything, Dalot has 0.1 xA per 90 this season. Ie, one expected assist every ten games. And one actual assist. And he has completed a grand total of 6 crosses into the box.
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You know the irony of really really small sample sizes? One can verify them by looking up a couple highlight videos. No, literally. the player's touch compilation for the season has barely just exceeded a couple minutes so it was easy for me to look up. We can talk about the small sample of crosses one by one. I'm not going to post all of his touch compilations from the last 5-6 games but there's no way the these crosses are anything worse than good to decent, average at worst. Even against Sociedad he created Ronaldo's offside goal with an in-field cross. His deliveries thus far have been good. Attempting to paint his deliveries so far this season as bad would be a nasty reach for any stat.
 
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Cassidy said:
Its not clear to me hence my opinion.
Thats because I have not seen enough over time as I said previously.
Also the club do not need to rush to give him a new long term deal either. We have Laird so we should be making an assessment towards the end of the season really in my opinion.
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I don't trust Laird , he looks like another overhyped, overrated youth from academy that hasn't produce a single world class players for around 30 years. It's Dalot and new fullback as his cover.
 
Lentwood said:
Yeah well I thought Evra's crossing was poor too but the difference between Evra and Dalot was that Evra was dynamic and regularly ran in-behind the opposition and drove forward at pace and on the overlap to create space for the likes of Ronaldo and Rooney to cut-inside.

Also, you must not have read the post you quoted because the post starts by saying how I don't like basing performances on stats (particularly assists) BUT I then go on to say that when the stats are SO bad...you might then have to ask "why".

Similarly, I have made the point elsewhere that when stats are SO good, they excuse otherwise mediocre performances. It works both ways...if you have a CF/WF/AMC who generally is hit and miss but posts insane numbers, then you can probably accept that.

Again though, I go back to my point...Dalot has played, what, 7/8 games this season, three of which have been defeats against mediocre sides. So yes, whilst I agree he's played BETTER, let's not start getting carried away because that's what this forum does. The truth is, he's PROBABLY, on the evidence of his career to date, just an average-to-fair fullback but, with age on his side and a decent coach, it's possible he could become fair/good
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I perfectly read what you said. So saying I don't believe in assists but going on to assess a player's lack of assists yields the same response either way. It doesn't change anything that you claim this to be an exception belief. if anything makes the concern sound less justifiable . If you don't believe in using assists then extend all those reasons to Dalot. "I don't believe in assists", well then there you go, neither do I, especially for any player at that position.

He almost doubled that the other week when Ronaldo's goal was called offside. Would you have reworked your entire perspective about him if that one offside wasn't counted? It's double meaningless here. His deliveries have truly been poor in the past, I know, but assist tally is not good for assessing or comparing his relative improvements this season. The guy is delivering currently.
 
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hart said:
I don't trust Laird , he looks like another overhyped, overrated youth from academy that hasn't produce a single world class players for around 30 years. It's Dalot and new fullback as his cover.
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I’d prefer to wait and see how they both do this season
 
Greck said:
You know the irony of really really small sample sizes? One can verify them by looking up a couple highlight videos. No, literally. the player's touch compilation for the season has barely just exceeded a couple minutes so it was easy for me to look up. We can talk about the small sample of crosses one by one. I'm not going to post all of his touch compilations from the last 5-6 games but there's no way the these crosses are anything worse than good to decent, average at worst. Even against Sociedad he created Ronaldo's offside goal with an in-field cross. His deliveries thus far have been good. Attempting to paint his deliveries so far this season as bad would be a nasty reach for any stat.
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Surely you realise that your arguments about sample size hits in the same way against your own statement that "he's been providing assists and assist worthy crosses all season", which is what that was posted in response to?

So, those assist-worthy crosses, is that all six of them? And that single assist of his, how does that spread out over the season as a whole?

I'm not trying to paint his deliveries as bad. Overall, I too think he's looked better for the past 4 games than he did last season, although primarily in that he has largely ceased to be a defensive liability. What I am saying is that a fair few people are raving on no basis about a supposed improvement in his on-the-ball game, of which there isn't actually much trace in his stats and which is obviously premature. The sample size for an eye-test judgment isn't any larger than it is for his stats.
 
justsomebloke said:
Surely you realise that your arguments about sample size hits in the same way against your own statement that "he's been providing assists and assist worthy crosses all season", which is what that was posted in response to?
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The point about small samples is actually about how easy it is to look up the quality of his crosses without needing to take your Xg stat at face value. As he has played very few games the stat wasn't hard to match against the eye test. Conclusion; untrue. Guy's crossing has been fire.

justsomebloke said:
So, those assist-worthy crosses, is that all six of them? And that single assist of his, how does that spread out over the season as a whole?

I'm not trying to paint his deliveries as bad. Overall, I too think he's looked better for the past 4 games than he did last season, although primarily in that he has largely ceased to be a defensive liability. What I am saying is that a fair few people are raving on no basis about a supposed improvement in his on-the-ball game, of which there isn't actually much trace in his stats and which is obviously premature. The sample size for an eye-test judgment isn't any larger than it is for his stats.
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They are actually really good but with respect you should know what they looked like. I'm guessing you didn't post a stat about the quality of his crosses this season without seeing them. Just give your thoughts on the quality. Many have actually been assist worthy especially when we have played with an aerial target in Ronaldo. Assist or no assist his crosses have been good.

I'm also not answering anything about their long term sustainability. I don't know if he can sustain it, never claimed to. You can make your own personal extrapolations about their significance over a larger size. All I can see is he has delivered so far, we can trash him after he shows a regression.
 
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Greck said:
The point about small samples is actually about how easy it is to look up the quality of his crosses without needing to take your Xg stat at face value.


They are actually really good but with respect you should know what they looked like. I'm guessing you didn't post a stat about the quality of his crosses this season without seeing them. Just give your thoughts on the quality. Many have actually been assist worthy especially when we have played with an aerial target in Ronaldo. Assist or no assist his crosses have been good.

I'm also not answering anything about their long term sustainability. I don't know if he can sustain it, never claimed to. You can make your own personal extrapolations about their significance over a larger size. All I can see is he has delivered so far, we can trash him after he shows a regression.
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I've not posted any xG stat. I posted an xA stat, in response to your claim that he's been hitting assist-worthy crosses all season. That stat tells you more or less by definition how assist-worthy his crosses have been, at least a good deal better than watching them and seeing how good you feel about them.

And my question was rethorical, because I (overoptimistically) assumed it would be self-evident that it is absurd to make any general judgment on the quality of Dalot's crosses from SIX crosses spread over 6 games.

If you want my overall read on Dalot, it's this: For me the issue with him as a starter is that he's got to show his bottom level defensively much less frequently than he did last season. So far, and first two games aside, he has. This is good. Offensively, he is already passable, if not top level. Insofar as stats from 6 games tell us anything, they indicate that he has been a bit less involved offensively than he was last year, but there are also some good indications that he's picking his spots better (higher xA, higher SCA f.e.).That may be consistent with a reading that he's focusing more on his defensive duties and also exercising better judgment in his offensive commitments, which would be good. Only time will tell if this is a trend or just a blip. His offensive game may continue to evolve, but I don't think what we've seen so far is enough to argue this is happening.
 
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justsomebloke said:
I've not posted any xG stat. I posted an xA stat, in response to your claim that he's been hitting assist-worthy crosses all season. That stat tells you more or less by definition how assist-worthy his crosses have been, at least a good deal better than watching them and seeing how good you feel about them.

And my question was rethorical, because I (overoptimistically) assumed it would be self-evident that it is absurd to make any general judgment on the quality of Dalot's crosses from SIX crosses spread over 6 games.

If you want my overall read on Dalot, it's this: For me the issue with him as a starter is that he's got to show his bottom level defensively much less frequently than he did last season. So far, and first two games aside, he has. This is good. Offensively, he is already passable, if not top level. Insofar as stats from 6 games tell us anything, they indicate that he has been a bit less involved offensively than he was last year, but there are also some good indications that he's picking his spots better (higher xA, higher SCA f.e.).That may be consistent with a reading that he's focusing more on his defensive duties and also exercising better judgment in his offensive commitments, which would be good. Only time will tell if this is a trend or just a blip. His offensive game may continue to evolve, but I don't think what we've seen so far is enough to argue this is happening.
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You're assuming your question was misunderstood, nope, everyone reading this got you, as did the reply. Look again and look closely. To be honest I'm not even sure you haven't misunderstood what was said about his cross quality this season because you're caught up on the sample thing. Here's a hint, it never had anything to do with sustainability or claiming you said so. The only relevance sample size has here is allowing one to look up the reliability of that xA stat posted.

Regarding the bolded, excuse me? Stats tell no such thing individually. They supplement the eyetest not replace it. They don't tell you the quality of individual plays, this is why they are prone to noise individually. Stats are derived from formulas that are themselves derived from the eyetest, especially football stats which are still in their infancy. If one stands by a stat that says Dalot's crosses this season have been poor, mediocre or below average then they have effectively allowed out of context numbers to replace their own independent critical thought. Lastly, a huge part of using stats is knowing when you're seeing noise and this is only achieved by knowledge derived from the eyetest.
 
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Greck said:
You're assuming your question was misunderstood, nope, everyone reading this got you, as did the reply. Look again and look closely. To be honest I'm not even sure you haven't misunderstood what was said about his cross quality this season because you're caught up on the sample thing. Here's a hint, it never had anything to do with sustainability or claiming you said so. The only relevance sample size has here is allowing one to look up the reliability of that xA stat posted.

Regarding the bolded, excuse me? Stats tell no such thing individually. They supplement the eyetest not replace it. They don't tell you the quality of individual plays, this is why they are prone to noise individually. Stats are derived from formulas that are themselves derived from the eyetest, especially football stats which are still in their infancy. If one stands by a stat that says Dalot's crosses this season have been poor, mediocre or below average then they have effectively allowed out of context numbers to replace their own independent critical thought.
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For the third time, I believe: I have not argued and am not arguing that Dalot's crosses have been mediocre or below average. I am pointing out that they, together with all the non-crossing passes he's made, have resulted in 0.1 expected assists per 90. Is that awful, or mediocre, or good? That can be debated. What can not be debated is that this is fairly hard to square with him having been hitting "assist-worthy" crosses all season. Because what that figure means is that his passes have not resulted directly in many good scoring chances. That's all. Not saying they're not good crosses. Just that there hasn't been many of them, and they haven't resulted in much in the way of assists for goals. Of course, it's perfectly possible for a cross to make a huge offensive contribution while still having 0.00 xA - if the cross is not the last pass to the player who finishes. But you're the one who's talking about "assist-worthy" crosses, and that's the precise point I'm addressing.

And you apparently still do not understand that the sample size of your eye test is exactly the same as the sample size for the stats.

HE'S HIT SIX CROSSES ALL SEASON, for God's sake. Eye test or stats, that's not much for a judgment on what sort of crosser he is.

(Or actually, he has hit nine, but only 6 of them were completed and into the box).
 
justsomebloke said:
For the third time, I believe: I have not argued and am not arguing that Dalot's crosses have been mediocre or below average. I am pointing out that they, together with all the non-crossing passes he's made, have resulted in 0.1 expected assists per 90. Is that awful, or mediocre, or good? That can be debated. What can not be debated is that this is fairly hard to square with him having been hitting "assist-worthy" crosses all season. Because what that figure means is that his passes have not resulted directly in many good scoring chances. That's all. Not saying they're not good crosses. Just that there hasn't been many of them, and they haven't resulted in much in the way of assists for goals. Of course, it's perfectly possible for a cross to make a huge offensive contribution while still having 0.00 xA - if the cross is not the last pass to the player who finishes. But you're the one who's talking about "assist-worthy" crosses, and that's the precise point I'm addressing.

And you apparently still do not understand that the sample size of your eye test is exactly the same as the sample size for the stats.

HE'S HIT SIX CROSSES ALL SEASON, for God's sake. Eye test or stats, that's not much for a judgment on what sort of crosser he is.

(Or actually, he has hit nine, but only 6 of them were completed and into the box).
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Oh Lord, I just got it, I didn't want to believe it. That's your peeve in this whole thing? For anyone reading this I said "assist worthy" crosses once on the last page amongst a series of other descriptions praising improvements in his final ball and he cut only that and ran with it. I even thought you had a unique disagreement about his final ball but nope, your whole thing is I said "assist worthy" rather than good, decent or some other lesser adjective. It doesn't even mean or change anything. I pulled it from thin air.

Alright then, his deliveries have been good overall. Do you feel any different? Nope? Neither do I. Yeah, I want all those minutes of my life back. Maybe I can pm an admin, I def deserve some form of compensation.

Edit For anyone else who wants to know about the quality of his deliveries so far this season you can find them at 0:44,1.53, 2:30, 2:57, 3:10, 4:10. Let it be that I didn't totally waste my time. The advantage of the small sample is they are quite easy to find and assess for ourselves, they form the majority of his 6-9 cross attempts. Are these not legit deliveries that could have yielded goals?


Edit 2 I watched it again and have in fact strengthened my stance. They are mostly assist worthy. Any stat disputing this can go in the garbage.
 
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Greck said:
Oh Lord, I just got it, I didn't want to believe it. That's your peeve in this whole thing? For anyone reading this I said "assist worthy" crosses once on the last page amongst a series of other descriptions praising improvements in his final ball and he cut only that and ran with it. I even thought you had a unique disagreement about his final ball but nope, your whole thing is I said "assist worthy" rather than good, decent or some other lesser adjective. It doesn't even mean or change anything. I pulled it from thin air.

Alright then, his deliveries have been good overall. Do you feel any different? Nope? Neither do I. Yeah, I want all those minutes of my life back. Maybe I can pm an admin, I def deserve some form of compensation.

Edit For anyone else who wants to know about the quality of his deliveries so far this season you can find them at 0:44,1.53, 2:30, 2:57, 3:10, 4:10. Let it be that I didn't totally waste my time. The advantage of the small sample is they are quite easy to find and assess for ourselves, they form the majority of his 6-9 cross attempts. Are these not legit deliveries that could have yielded goals?


Edit 2 I watched it again and have in fact strengthened my stance. They are mostly assist worthy. Any stat disputing this can go in the garbage.
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Yep they're good crosses. Sorry for your lost time :lol:
 
Ballache said:
Yes because we're a coherent team with 10/10 performances all over the pitch...
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Dalot was complete and utter wank today. Its not about the players around him, even relative to them he was shite. Stupid fouls early on, lucky not to give away pens, shit positioning, heavy passes. feck me he was torrid.
 
You can make the same thread for every United player after that performance
 
AWB sympathizers just waiting for moment to pounce on him. Hey look, we told you he is shit.
 
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