What do we still need? Aka The never ending story

[RedStarUnited]

God I wish Antony would have the balls to do more of that. He has the feet to do it and enough pace, just lacks either the intelligence or confidence or both.

I Dont think Antony has the acceleration this guy has.

 

[daba]

I Dont think Antony has the acceleration this guy has.

Antony might not have Doku’s raw pace but he’s not slow and has enough acceleration and agility to do it. He’s shown he can do it on occasion but doesn’t do it nearly enough.

He seems to hesitate and wait too long on the ball, which to me shows a lack of either confidence, intelligence or decision-making to make the move to take on his man.

 

[zaafi]

Antony might not have Doku’s raw pace but he’s not slow and has enough acceleration and agility to do it. He’s shown he can do it on occasion but doesn’t do it nearly enough.

He seems to hesitate and wait too long on the ball, which to me shows a lack of either confidence, intelligence or decision-making to make the move to take on his man.

Doku has insane acceleration, which is why he beats his man almost every single time, despite being very small. He has 6.50 successful take-ons per 90, while Antony has 1.61 per 90.
Antony has decent acceleration, but it's not close to Doku's, and Doku also has insane top speed, and dribbles while he runs. Antony has to stop to dribble, it's embarrassing to watch from a winger.

 

[Zed is not dead]

First of all let's get something straight, Rangnick didn't identify talent but rather his role as the DoF was to put people in charge of a recruitment department to identify talent. For example, he had Christian Mockel as the head scout at Hoffenheim whose job it was to structure the recruitment at the club. And the same applied at RB Leipzig where the head of scouting was in charge of recruitment. Rangnick's role as the DoF was to oversee all the football departments and not just the recruitment department.

So his job was to empower the heads of each particular football department because those heads of department were the ones who directed their department. And hence the recruitment at his clubs was run by the heads of scouting and not Rangnick. You need to understand the difference between the DoF and the heads of recruitment, because they're two different roles. And the mainstream media doesn't help matters by giving all credit to the DoF. And at the clubs Rangnick was DoF, the strategy was to sign either promising youth players or sign young 18 to 21 year olds with a view to selling them on for profit. That strategy will make monetary profit in the long-term but will rarely win you trophies against teams who want to win now. You can't compare a stepping stone club like RB Leipzig or Hoffenheim with Man Utd. Hence what needs to be understood is the actual football structure and how long that structure has been in operation and not just focus on only the DoF.

And the players Rangnick asked the club to sign are listed below which he specifically mentioned in a interview with Christian Falk. And he didn't mention Enzo Fernandez or Alvarez in the interview with Christian Falk. Both of those players along with Caicedo were recommended to the club by their head of South American scouting Jose Mayorga. Mayorga has since been promoted and is now in a head of recruitment role.



Vlahovic wasn't even a option because Romano pretty quickly debunked that as the tweet below indicates. But the rest of the players are players who most fans knew about. And you don't need Rangnick to tell you to sign the likes of Haaland and the rest because everyone knew about Haaland. And Gvardiol I first watched play in the Uefa Youth League for Dinamo Zagreb and would later mention him as a big prospect that I'd like us to sign. I could've recommend the same players. I wouldn't have wanted us to sign Morata though.





It's important to understand the difference between the head of recruitment and the DoF. People like Winstanley who joined Chelsea from Brighton was Brighton's head of recruitment and not their DoF. And you have to give a new structure time to bed-in because what we're up against in the EPL are teams who are spending a ridiculous amount of money that we just can't compete with, with our current owners. But having said that, I think we'll sign at least one, maybe two players before the window shuts

After Chelsea spent a ridiculous amount last season, the below is what they've done in the current window thus far.

I salute your dedication to explaining the same thing over and over again in spite of the Caf’s solid belief that a DoF is a glorified head scout

 

[johnnyteutonic]

First of all let's get something straight, Rangnick didn't identify talent but rather his role as the DoF was to put people in charge of a recruitment department to identify talent. For example, he had Christian Mockel as the head scout at Hoffenheim whose job it was to structure the recruitment at the club. And the same applied at RB Leipzig where the head of scouting was in charge of recruitment. Rangnick's role as the DoF was to oversee all the football departments and not just the recruitment department.

So his job was to empower the heads of each particular football department because those heads of department were the ones who directed their department. And hence the recruitment at his clubs was run by the heads of scouting and not Rangnick. You need to understand the difference between the DoF and the heads of recruitment, because they're two different roles. And the mainstream media doesn't help matters by giving all credit to the DoF. And at the clubs Rangnick was DoF, the strategy was to sign either promising youth players or sign young 18 to 21 year olds with a view to selling them on for profit. That strategy will make monetary profit in the long-term but will rarely win you trophies against teams who want to win now. You can't compare a stepping stone club like RB Leipzig or Hoffenheim with Man Utd. Hence what needs to be understood is the actual football structure and how long that structure has been in operation and not just focus on only the DoF.

And the players Rangnick asked the club to sign are listed below which he specifically mentioned in a interview with Christian Falk. And he didn't mention Enzo Fernandez or Alvarez in the interview with Christian Falk. Both of those players along with Caicedo were recommended to the club by their head of South American scouting Jose Mayorga. Mayorga has since been promoted and is now in a head of recruitment role.


Vlahovic wasn't even a option because Romano pretty quickly debunked that as the tweet below indicates. But the rest of the players are players who most fans knew about. And you don't need Rangnick to tell you to sign the likes of Haaland and the rest because everyone knew about Haaland. And Gvardiol I first watched play in the Uefa Youth League for Dinamo Zagreb and would later mention him as a big prospect that I'd like us to sign. I could've recommend the same players. I wouldn't have wanted us to sign Morata though.



It's important to understand the difference between the head of recruitment and the DoF. People like Winstanley who joined Chelsea from Brighton was Brighton's head of recruitment and not their DoF. And you have to give a new structure time to bed-in because what we're up against in the EPL are teams who are spending a ridiculous amount of money that we just can't compete with, with our current owners. But having said that, I think we'll sign at least one, maybe two players before the window shuts

After Chelsea spent a ridiculous amount last season, the below is what they've done in the current window thus far.

Thanks for explaining the difference to me regarding his role, I wasn't aware.
It sounds like you've mentioned this before here based on other posters answers, but as I am pretty new to the Caf, I wasn't aware of such a difference.
And yes, of course I'm aware that the priorities at RB Leipzig or at Hoffenheim were very different (flipping young players for a profit).
I still think that kind of experience he had may well have proved valuable to us.
We all know there is an over-reliance on ETH for identifying players that he wants and even though I am not an expert on Murtough, it doesn't like the structure so far is ensuring we are
making better decisions about recruitment, but perhaps that will require more time as the re-structuring is still relatively recent?

Anyway, yes, we all knew who Haaland was.
That's why I wrote 'lol' in parentheses next to his name in my other post:

I'm sure you know the names but for the benefit of anyone who doesn't remember - Alvarez, Enzo Fernandez, Gvardiol, Luis Diaz, Laimer, Nkunku, Vlahovic and Haaland (lol).

As for Winstanley, I did write that he was head of recruitment for Brighton. Not sure if you saw that part.
Here it is:

Off the top of my head, they took Paul Winstanley who was their head of recruitment and was in charge of identifying talent so was very much involved in their scouting department. But yeah I'm sure there are plenty of others we could poach, assuming our club ever displayed any real ambition.

 

[Adnan]

Thanks for explaining the difference to me regarding his role, I wasn't aware.
It sounds like you've mentioned this before here based on other posters answers, but as I am pretty new to the Caf, I wasn't aware of such a difference.
And yes, of course I'm aware that the priorities at RB Leipzig or at Hoffenheim were very different (flipping young players for a profit).
I still think that kind of experience he had may well have proved valuable to us.
We all know there is an over-reliance on ETH for identifying players that he wants and even though I am not an expert on Murtough, it doesn't like the structure so far is ensuring we are
making better decisions about recruitment, but perhaps that will require more time as the re-structuring is still relatively recent?

Anyway, yes, we all knew who Haaland was.
That's why I wrote 'lol' in parentheses next to his name in my other post:


As for Winstanley, I did write that he was head of recruitment for Brighton. Not sure if you saw that part.
Here it is:

My thoughts on Winstanley and Haaland weren't aimed at you, so I apologise for not making a distinction between yourself and other posters.

And regarding the re-structuring on the football side of the club, which saw Matt Judge ( transfer/contract negotiator), Marcel Bout & Jim Lawlor (heads of recruitment) leave near the end of the season in 2022, meant that we as a club decided that we weren't going to go forward with the work of Bout and Lawlor, hence they were sacked. So the previous structure which was put in place by Ed Woodward, was ripped up and we decided that instead of going with the previous heads of recruitment, we were going to go with ten Hag to lead on recruitment in the summer of 2022. And whilst ten Hag replaced the sacked heads of recruitment on a temporary basis, the new recruitment heads were put in place for the following summer, which I mentioned at the time. Both Jose Mayorga and Simon Wells have stepped in to replace the previous heads of recruitment and you have to give them at least a season before judging their work. And the current transfer window is a reflection of their early work after one season in their new roles. With Matt Hargreaves the new head of transfer and contract negotiations only taking up his role in June this year.

So the new head scouts after being in their new roles for just over a year, have overseen three signings thus far, Mount, Onana and Hojlund. Onana is a ten Hag signing and he fits the profile of what we require and there shouldn't be kick back on that signing because according to The Athletic, the scouts were pushing for Mike Maignan but the issue was that Milan wanted €100m for him according to the same report. Mason Mount is also a scout signing because of his displays at Chelsea in the EPL and Champions league under Thomas Tuchel. And contrary to what some may believe, you sign Mason Mount on the back of his displays for Chelsea in the EPL and Champions league and not because he was on loan to Vitesse in his teens. It's why Arsenal and Liverpool also made attempts to sign him but it seems him and his father were United fans and that swung it in our favour. And Hojlund is a scout signing if ever there was one, and so far two of the signings are down to Simon Wells and Jose Mayorga and Onana is due to ten Hag. And both parties are working together as far as I know, which wasn't the case with previous managers who had their personal scouts.

I wouldn't have signed Mason Mount but I can understand why he was signed. But what seems to have compounded matters was the injury to Kobbie Mainoo (scout signing). Because it does look like ten Hag was going to give Mainoo the games to develop into a deeper lying controller with the ability to evade and resist pressure whilst having the composure to break lines via his passing. So with Mainoo being a genuine option in a deeper role, I feel they put the signing of another midfielder towards the end of the window, but sadly for us, he suffered a injury.

And we need more signings but do we have the money? I think we'll end up signing at least one more player but with a non Glazer ownership I have no doubt we'd have signed another 3 players on top of what we've already signed.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

My thoughts on Winstanley and Haaland weren't aimed at you, so I apologise for not making a distinction between yourself and other posters.

And regarding the re-structuring on the football side of the club, which saw Matt Judge ( transfer/contract negotiator), Marcel Bout & Jim Lawlor (heads of recruitment) leave near the end of the season in 2022, meant that we as a club decided that we weren't going to go forward with the work of Bout and Lawlor, hence they were sacked. So the previous structure which was put in place by Ed Woodward, was ripped up and we decided that instead of going with the previous heads of recruitment, we were going to go with ten Hag to lead on recruitment in the summer of 2022. And whilst ten Hag replaced the sacked heads of recruitment on a temporary basis, the new recruitment heads were put in place for the following summer, which I mentioned at the time. Both Jose Mayorga and Simon Wells have stepped in to replace the previous heads of recruitment and you have to give them at least a season before judging their work. And the current transfer window is a reflection of their early work after one season in their new roles. With Matt Hargreaves the new head of transfer and contract negotiations only taking up his role in June this year.

So the new head scouts after being in their new roles for just over a year, have overseen three signings thus far, Mount, Onana and Hojlund. Onana is a ten Hag signing and he fits the profile of what we require and there shouldn't be kick back on that signing because according to The Athletic, the scouts were pushing for Mike Maignan but the issue was that Milan wanted €100m for him according to the same report. Mason Mount is also a scout signing because of his displays at Chelsea in the EPL and Champions league under Thomas Tuchel. And contrary to what some may believe, you sign Mason Mount on the back of his displays for Chelsea in the EPL and Champions league and not because he was on loan to Vitesse in his teens. It's why Arsenal and Liverpool also made attempts to sign him but it seems him and his father were United fans and that swung it in our favour. And Hojlund is a scout signing if ever there was one, and so far two of the signings are down to Simon Wells and Jose Mayorga and Onana is due to ten Hag. And both parties are working together as far as I know, which wasn't the case with previous managers who had their personal scouts.

I wouldn't have signed Mason Mount but I can understand why he was signed. But what seems to have compounded matters was the injury to Kobbie Mainoo (scout signing). Because it does look like ten Hag was going to give Mainoo the games to develop into a deeper lying controller with the ability to evade and resist pressure whilst having the composure to break lines via his passing. So with Mainoo being a genuine option in a deeper role, I feel they put the signing of another midfielder towards the end of the window, but sadly for us, he suffered a injury.

And we need more signings but do we have the money? I think we'll end up signing at least one more player but with a non Glazer ownership I have no doubt we'd have signed another 3 players on top of what we've already signed.

Thank you this awesome explanation of the re-structuring of the club.
I did read about Hargreaves taking up this new role. I believe we had to wait for him whilst he fulfilled his obligations at adidas?
W.r.t the price of Maignan, Onana was a no-brainer.

I must admit, I too assumed that Mount was signed because of his earlier loan to Vitesse.

It is a shame about Mainoo - looked fantastic against Arsenal in pre-season for that 45 minutes we saw of him.
Wished we could have seen what he could do against Madrid...
I hear he won't be back until October but it does seem like the idea was/is to promote him as you're saying.

Based on recent news, I think we will sign a back-up keeper and if we are 'lucky', maybe a left-field deadline day deal for a CM.

 

[Adnan]

Thank you this awesome explanation of the re-structuring of the club.
I did read about Hargreaves taking up this new role. I believe we had to wait for him whilst he fulfilled his obligations at adidas?
W.r.t the price of Maignan, Onana was a no-brainer.

I must admit, I too assumed that Mount was signed because of his earlier loan to Vitesse.

It is a shame about Mainoo - looked fantastic against Arsenal in pre-season for that 45 minutes we saw of him.
Wished we could have seen what he could do against Madrid...
I hear he won't be back until October but it does seem like the idea was/is to promote him as you're saying.

Based on recent news, I think we will sign a back-up keeper and if we are 'lucky', maybe a left-field deadline day deal for a CM.

That's correct, we had to wait for Hargreaves to fulfil his obligations at Adidas before he took up his new role at United. And between Judge leaving and Hargreaves arriving, we appointed Tom Keane to fill the gap and oversee the transfer negotiations in the summer of 2022 on a temporary basis.

I think we'll sign a player or two before the window closes. But I don't think we can compete financially under the current ownership. And the previous regime have done a terrible job when it comes to buying players and handing out contracts that it's a challenge getting players out of the club. Arsenal finished 8th, 8th and then 5th and kept Arteta on and that's helped them consolidate/progress and climb the table. But I don't believe another big club would show as much patience in their head coach like Arsenal showed with Arteta.

I think a new Manchester United owner will make the difference, mate. Because you can have the best recruiters in the business but they need to be backed by the owners. Or otherwise there's a ceiling they can't go beyond whilst the wealth funds at Chelsea, Newcastle and City will provide the capital for their football departments to potentially thrive. Something has to give with the sale, sooner rather than later.

 

[Roboc7]

In a way if there is truth that the ownership may change soon then it’s probably best there isn’t a lot to spend. Arnold and Murtough are just repeating the same mistakes, a fresh start with new owners and new leadership is desperately required and I’ve no doubt that is what will happen.

Any hopes of a decent window collapse when we didn’t do a deal with West Ham for Maguire and Mctominay. Have to question why so much was spent on 3 players if money was so tight. I think they misjudged who they could sell and how much for and in the end it’s all ground to a halt.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

Any answer that doesn’t start with Palhinha is objectively the wrong answer.

No, it's not. Palhinha is objectively terrible in possession (like worst in the league in key midfielder attributes) who dives in more than Casemiro and accrued 14 yellow cards last season alone. He's clearly capable of having very dominant defensive performances but we need midfielders that can play both ways. Can't solve one problem and create another.

 

[Rauður Djöfull]

Depressing window this has been since the club rejected double offer for McTominay & Maguire

 

[Castia]

Apart from the keeper we could probably buy a player in any position and there would be a chance he could start

We’re short in every single area looking at the squad. CB is needed, RB is needed, Mid is needed, Strikers needed and we’ve spent about 170m on 2 wide forwards who can both easily be replaced

The club and squad is a mess from top to bottom. City are adding players to arguably one of the best squads ever whilst we’re still giving minutes to Scott McTominay.

We’re a laughing stock amongst rival clubs

 

[Zico1982]

We don´t need Amrabat. With FdJ out the equation we need Gravenberch or Højbjerg.

 

[Waynne]

Jeremy Doku looks a real threat. City pulling futher and further away from the rest. Will take a2 decades to catch up if we're still owned by the Glazers in the next 5 years.

Its fecking depressing to think about.

 

[USREDEVIL]

I have been drinking, and currently having an ale but sign Lukaku on a one-year. I liked when he was here.

 

[Nani Nana]

We don´t need Amrabat. With FdJ out the equation we need Gravenberch or Højbjerg.

Of course Amrabat is needed, only Casemiro plays that role. Gravenberch is a flop and Hojbjerg a pipe dream.

Defensive midfielders' price has skyrocketed this window, Rice, Caicedo, Lavia, after Enzo Fernandez earlier this year and Tchouameni before.

We have to make do and Amrabat is a good stop-gap for the next season or two, not expensive, experienced, reliable.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

We don´t need Amrabat. With FdJ out the equation we need Gravenberch or Højbjerg.

What's the logic here? I don't see any commonalities with Gravenberch or Højberg. Amrabat would at least give us control, build up skills and retention.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

Jeremy Doku looks a real threat. City pulling futher and further away from the rest. Will take a2 decades to catch up if we're still owned by the Glazers in the next 5 years.

Its fecking depressing to think about.

Doku is a scintillating player to watch but these explosive guys can never stay fit. Doku hasn't managed 15 full 90s in a season since he was 18. However, City seem to be amazing at managing injuries so maybe they'll rehabilitate him the way they managed with Haaland who used to miss lots of games before moving to City.

 

[Oldyella]

I have been drinking, and currently having an ale but sign Lukaku on a one-year. I liked when he was here.

Must be a strong ale..

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

Must be a strong ale..

He's scored at a rate greater than 1:2 across 9 premier league seasons and is a far better 9 than anything we have now. Wouldn't be a terrible loan. I get that he's a frustrating player but we need some forward threat and who knows what the truth is with this Hojlund injury.

 

[croadyman]

Ideally need at least Amrabat/Gravenberch (loan) and should try for this Leonardo IF we actually get any money for Henderson

 

[Red Rash]

Doku is a scintillating player to watch but these explosive guys can never stay fit. Doku hasn't managed 15 full 90s in a season since he was 18. However, City seem to be amazing at managing injuries so maybe they'll rehabilitate him the way they managed with Haaland who used to miss lots of games before moving to City.

Plus he is coming from a weaker league. He may end up being a very good signing but it's definitely not a certainty by any means.

 

[CallyRed]

What's this I'm hearing about Ryan Bertrand as a potential left back signing....

 

[Adnan]

What's this I'm hearing about Ryan Bertrand as a potential left back signing....

It's from a kid who writes for Stretty News and shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

Plus he is coming from a weaker league. He may end up being a very good signing but it's definitely not a certainty by any means.

Honestly don't see that being an issue at all. These skills are fairly transferrable from Ligue 1 to the Premiership. The likes of St Maximin and Hazard's dribbling both crossed over and Doku's dribbling is possibly even more explosive. He reminds me of Jason Robinson, the rugby player, the way he explodes off either foot.

 

[aeh1991]

Not the short term LB we are looking for now, but next summer we gotta try to sign Alphonso Davies, who hasn't renewed his contract yet (expiring 2025)!

 

[croadyman]

Before window shuts need minimum

Amrabat
Cucurella (loan)

Ideally as well

Gravenberch (loan with option/obligation)
Backup CB/ST

 

[The-Mezzala]

What’s happening with Ibrahim Sangaré these days?

He was running the show for PSV for the last few years and yet isn’t linked to anyone…

I am also shocked he has not been linked more. Would take him over Amrabat tbh

 

[Dominos]

Before window shuts need minimum

Amrabat
Cucurella (loan)

Ideally as well

Gravenberch (loan with option/obligation)
Backup CB/ST

We may have to consider our foreign quota limit.

I think we currently have 14 foreign players if we get rid of VDB and we're allowed 17.

Out - Maguire, VDB, Mctominay

In - Amarabat, Gravenberch, Todibo, Cucurella

This would leave us with 18 foreign players, however I'm thinking Gravenberch is young enough that he doesn't have to be registered? In which case we'd be fine, just about.

Given how slow we are to get things done, I'd be surprised if we managed to pull off 3 or 4 signings in a few days.

 

[Plastic Evra]

We may have to consider our foreign quota limit.

I think we currently have 14 foreign players if we get rid of VDB and we're allowed 17.

Out - Maguire, VDB, Mctominay

In - Amarabat, Gravenberch, Todibo, Cucurella

This would leave us with 18 foreign players, however I'm thinking Gravenberch is young enough that he doesn't have to be registered? In which case we'd be fine, just about.

Given how slow we are to get things done, I'd be surprised if we managed to pull off 3 or 4 signings in a few days.

Also the backup keeper (Bayindir most probably but the other name linked is also non-British).
I wouldn't bet on vdB leaving.
There's been very few rumours lately for British players / players in the PL, I'm sure there must be a couple on some list somewhere.

 

[Dominos]

Also the backup keeper (Bayindir most probably but the other name linked is also non-British).
I wouldn't bet on vdB leaving.
There's been very few rumours lately for British players / players in the PL, I'm sure there must be a couple on some list somewhere.

I already counted the keeper in the 14, thought he'd signed already for some reason.

 

[Plastic Evra]

I already counted him in the 14,

Ah ! Cheers.

 

[croadyman]

We may have to consider our foreign quota limit.

I think we currently have 14 foreign players if we get rid of VDB and we're allowed 17.

Out - Maguire, VDB, Mctominay

In - Amarabat, Gravenberch, Todibo, Cucurella

This would leave us with 18 foreign players, however I'm thinking Gravenberch is young enough that he doesn't have to be registered? In which case we'd be fine, just about.

Given how slow we are to get things done, I'd be surprised if we managed to pull off 3 or 4 signings in a few days.

Yeah that would mean something absolutely mental like a signing per day which is too much to ask from this club. I never actually realised there was a foreign quota

 

[croadyman]

So in 5 days we need to get

Midfielder (ideally all rounder)
LB cover

Bonus signing

Backup CB/ST (Worry about Varane fitness and Hojlund needs support)

Which do people think is the most important out of CB/ST just out of interest?

 

[Bojan Djordjic]

Before window shuts need minimum

Amrabat
Cucurella (loan)

Ideally as well

Gravenberch (loan with option/obligation)
Backup CB/ST

How can you want Cucurella after seeing him stink it out at Chelsea for the last couple of years. Just play Dalot and Fernandez and put that money towards a midfielder which we actually need.

 

[spe88]

In this order…
CDM - Thuram
CB - Guehi
RB - Frimpong
RW - Olise
ST - David / Kubo

 

[golden_blunder]

A blank chequebook and a miracle

 

[Rampant Red Rodriguez]

2 inverted fullbacks. CDM back up. Another Cfwd. Eriksen substitute (Angel Gomes hopefully).

Ya, that's 5 more players.

 

[lex talionis]

We need an actual striker in the starting XI. That won't make us favorites for a treble, but we're not going to scare anyone -- not even Wolves or Forest -- with Rashford or Martial at striker. Put the boots on Hojlund and let's see what our wide forward and midfielders can do with him.

And we definitely need to get the back line and Onana to attend staff meetings together. Fine, we kept a clean sheet v Wolves but Spurs and Forest mocked and flogged what was one of the better defensive sides last season. Some of that is to be expected with a new keeper, even a brilliant "modern" keeper, but early signs are worrying and must be put in the rear view mirror ASAP as we have a tough opponent coming up this weekend, one that is vastly superior to Forest.

 

[croadyman]

Need to find a midfielder in 4 days who has defensive positioning, but can also pass and progress the ball effectively too. The problem is I am struggling to come up with anyone who fits that criteria and is gettable.