What can fans do to stop the vicious circle

Plant0x84 said:
I think the cup win was a convenient cover for the new hierarchy. Honestly they interviewed plenty and didn’t find anyone they really wanted so had to back track, otherwise Erik would have been gone in the summer. No doubt
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This is possibly the reason.
We were still trying to fill leadership positions so maybe decision making of such a huge decision was left until all were comfortable in their new roles.
 
Plant0x84 said:
I think the cup win was a convenient cover for the new hierarchy. Honestly they interviewed plenty and didn’t find anyone they really wanted so had to back track, otherwise Erik would have been gone in the summer. No doubt
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Exactly this.

If their ideal candidate had been available and had accepted an offer from United in the summer, ETH would be gone before the season started.

It was obvious that they never had faith in his abilities, and were looking to move him on as soon as their ideal candidate became available.
 
Revan said:
Amen. Hiring ten Hag made sense back then. Keeping him for the last 12 months did not make sense.

Hiring Amorim now makes sense. Not firing him if he sucks, does not make sense.

If we hire promising managers, and are quite fast at identifying if they suck or can actually be good, we’ll figure it out. Which is how every other massive club works for a while now, but somehow we seem to fetishize finding another Fergie who would be here for a couple of decades, when instead we should be thinking about finding a good manager for the next two years (and firing the current one if he sucks).

On balance of probabilities, most managers will suck here. So hire and fire fast until we find someone who does not suck.
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Yeah, like Arsenal did with Arteta and Liverpool with Klopp.
 
EtH debate can continue elsewhere New
I am not sure if I am allowed to say so, but I feel like this thread is going into a new EtH debate. I would like to keep it more general, if can be.
 
noodlehair said:
Stop being the most toxic online fan base in the league?

Accept that our players aren't at the same level as 15-20 years ago and that therefore it shouldn't be a licence to dish out the abuse every time they don't reach those standards.

Also accept that even of some of them can reach those standards, it is much less likely to happen if you create an environment where you only pick at the negative aspects of what they do, and then use that as a means to point every problem or bad performance at them.

Also be less obsessed in general with sticking the knife into the players. Players have come and gone and will continue to do so. The attitude, belief, culture or whatever you want to call it isn't dependent on one or two individuals. It's dependent on the environment you put the players into and to an extent the ability and motivational skills of the manager.

Mctominay and Maguire are two very good examples. The sort of players who might not be world beaters but can either thrive or be a burden depending on the environment you throw them into. Being at a club who tries to force them to leave and with fans who do nothing but call them shite is unlikely to be a "thrive" scenario.
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Yeah we are a strange fanbase to be fair. With large sections ready to stick the knife into a player, doesn't matter if they've recently been signed or they're a local lad, life long fan and came through the academy. But a lot of the same fans will treat some bloke just through the door as manager with zero connection to the club like royalty and they'll beyond reproach for years on end.

It's an odd dichotomy.
 
Plant0x84 said:
I don’t think it was an over reaction. Firstly
I think many fans were ashamed of what the club pulled on LVG when he won the cup, so there was a desire to be better than that this time round.

Secondly the cup final showed what we can achieve as a team, and Erik was well liked - many wanted him to succeed so it’s natural after a success like that to want him to get more time to build, especially with a off season ahead to buy in reinforcements.
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Yeah in a one off game, when we abandoned Ten Hag ball.
 
3KDré said:
You stop getting attached to the idea of a singular manager taking us from very poor to elite.

For now, the job at hand is to implement a modern, sustainable way of playing will help us control games more often. Most top teams have shared basic principles. We need to be on that same page - establish the foundations. This is, right now, the most important thing Amorim can do.

We stick with that manager until he hits his ceiling. When he reaches that ceiling, you look around and try to get a manager to take that next step while still keeping those foundations. When that manager reaches his ceiling (or makes us worse) we move on.

You can't control whether a DOF, Manager, Player, set piece coach works out. You give them a fair crack, look at their work objectively, and if they're not up to scratch you move on until you win big trophies. That's how top clubs operate.

Luckily, it's usually pretty obvious if the type of football a team is playing is going in the right direction or not. It was obvious Arteta and Klopp were going to make a top team. People like Amorim, Xabi Alonso, Nagelsmann, Iraola, McKenna and Frank are very good coaches and it's obvious. Whether or not they can translate that to a top team, you only ever really know when (if) they arrive there.
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Yep the fanbase need to accept there isn't another Fergie out there, hiring and firing managers every 2 years is perfectly normal if the club needs to do that. It's not a merry go round or chopping and changing.
 
stevoc said:
Both managed constant progression.
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And Klopp was successful since the start. Europa final on his first full season, UCL final on his second, UCL win on his third, EPL win on his fourth.
 
hobbers said:
Stop hiring shit managers or managers who just had meltdowns or managers who hadnt coached a club in over 5 years or managers who's experienced amounts to getting teams relegated.

If we follow the blueprint of hiring managers in the bracket of Ten Hag and Amorim (and firing them quickly if they fail) eventually we will get the right one.
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How is this in the control of the fans?
 
All we have to do is not go overboard after any singular result and not move the goalposts about where we end up this season.

This season is boned.

Cup competitions are a tough road and doing "well" in them is good but we can't bank on winning them, a decent try getting to some finals would be a bonus from where we are (nearly crashing out of a european cup designed to not let us).

By losing nearly half our games so far, we are in a rough position, objectively to finish inside the top 4, over the last 10 years, you need no less than 66 points and no more thant 75. In order to get to that we need to get 1.89 to 2.21 points per game from now on, the upper end of that is "in the title race" form.

Baring in mind he doesn't even get in the job until after another full 2 league games have been played. Anything inside the top 5 should be considered a runaway success.

Looking anyway half decent and getting the team setup for next season, adapting the team to what he wants, finding any holes in the roster (bar the obvious LWB) and playing well is all that matters.
 
We give managers more time than at any other big club. The last three managers at the very least have all deserved to be sacked at the time they were, and ETH arguably long before that. It's not like they have to win the league to keep their job, they were extremely bad runs of form for this club.

You keep going until you find someone that proves they deserve time.
 
What Fans can do to stop the vicious cycle

(1) Time does not turn an average manager/player into a great manager.

(2) Stop hoping for the next Sir Alex,there may never be another.

(3) The Statement 'We are a patient Club', is not a virtue, it's accepting mediocrity.
 
bringbackbebe said:
Wait and be patient and trust the new owners who are actually hiring experts in the field to set things right.
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They might well be experts, but they don't have a proven track record of success in football.
Our current CEO (Berrada) was not the CEO of MCFC - he was in a different role while he was there. I believe this is the first time he is taking on the CEO role.
The other people (Jim Radcliffe, Dan Ashworth) don't have a proven success record at the level that we are trying to compete at.

I do not give grace to new owners - they have to prove themselves right from the start and if they mess up, I will hold them accountable. Last Summer they should've got rid of ETH. Instead, they kept him on. If they'd followed my plan, I'd have had the new manager in as soon as the FA Cup ended, to allow him to plan for the entire Summer, including incoming transfers. Instead, what has happened is we have had a dreadful start to the season and we have bought players that might be suited more to ETH than the new manager. Furthermore, this season will essentially be written off.

I could go on, but you get my point.
The idea of blindly following a regime which has so far proved itself as being competent, is foolish.

And regarding "patience". We tried that with multiple managers before ETH and that failed. So following the same failing strategy is something that only a fool would do. I expect visible results fairly quickly. If a manager (or higher-up) says that they need 2 years to show improvement, I know that they are doomed to fail and I'd be looking for a replacement with immediate effect.
 
Plant0x84 said:
Should have been an indicator how to get success though. If we can come together to beat City (“the greatest team in history”) then we shouldn’t be losing to Spurs and fecking West Ham.
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But as was inevitable Ten Hag went back to trying to implement a system he had no idea how to implement or identify players suited to playing in said system.
 
Revan said:
And Klopp was successful since the start. Europa final on his first full season, UCL final on his second, UCL win on his third, EPL win on his fourth.
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They finished 8th in his first PL season. If that's successful from the start, you don't have a high bar. Arteta had successive 8th place seasons, then 5th. It was three years before he made them a significantly better team than they had been before he took over. Point is, it sometimes takes a while. So a "fire quick" approach comes with its own problems.
 
There are a lot posters being negative before the new boss has even signed up. We are closer to the relegation zone than I can ever remember. We need to be supportive and patient. Two or three months we can hope to be close to top six then who knows. I’m just hoping we can show it was a failed manager and we have a decent team, I’m ready to enjoy the ride.
 
Cessna said:
Yes. Yet another thread about the new regime.
Old manager out. New manager in. Hope is ignited.
I wonder if the members in here can be introspective and think about it.
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I think if we are 14th in 2 years time having spent £500-£600m on duffers Ruben Amorim will be sacked. Hot take I know.
 
General take; it's pointless to have general views on whether one should be more patient or less patient.

Patience is not a strategy. Nor is a determination to fire quickly if results don't come. That we've been relatively patient with a string of managers after SAF only to see them all fail doesn't tell us that there's a general problem with giving managers time to succeed, or that doing so is wrong. It doesn't tell us anything, other than that none of those specific managers were able to take us to the top, under the specific circumstances they were working.

United were right to stick with SAF, but would have been mad to show the same patience with Mourinho. There is no such thing as a generally correct level of patience. Ultimately management just have to make a continual judgment in each case and on its own merits. Taking everything into account, not just table position. They have to judge whether this is likely to continue to develop in a good direction, and act accordingly. There's no formula.
 
The only way to stop the Vicious Circle is we have to turn the corner.
 
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