I'd imagine most of the "plastic" fans bailed on United years ago. There's no glory left to hunt.
What can fans do to stop the vicious circle
- Thread starter Cessna
- Start date
It’s not for us to do anything. It’s up to the club. Ratcliffe said it when he came in and intimated that there were bigger problems than the manager. He’s sacked a load of cleaners and admin staff, he’s canned Fergie’s £2m per annum, he’s brought in a selection of people to run the club and he’s now overseeing the arrival of a new manager.
It’s for the likes of Wilcox and Brailsford to offload some of the rubbish in the squad and to give Amorim the tools to do his job and once he’s got those tools, it’s up to Amorim to produce.
It’s for the likes of Wilcox and Brailsford to offload some of the rubbish in the squad and to give Amorim the tools to do his job and once he’s got those tools, it’s up to Amorim to produce.
Doesn’t make it any less disappointing or upsetting though - especially when trophies have been won, a rapport has been built or a project has started promisingly but ultimately come to nothing.
Look at Ranieri at Leicester, after what he achieved he was loved like an elderly relative and the emotion was plain to see.
Same for us and Ole for example. He was held dear by supporters for his playing successes and he bought a lot of joy and good feeling back to the club but ultimately failed. He is a very likeable guy, and it was gutting to see how he was crushed by the pressures of the job and his ultimate dismissal.
With ten Hag he didn’t necessarily have that human connection with the fans but he came in to a fanfare, did really well in his first season and it really seemed like he was building something great - it’s a huge disappointment that it crumbled and that he wasn’t able to recover the situation.
Stop overreacting to cup wins whilst being shite in the league.
Maybe we should start by accepting where we are on the football spectrum and go from there.
I guess a key word is progress. It is a word that Erik used a lot, but how often did you see progress in the way of better / more coherent team play? How many decent games were followed by abysmal ones.
I mean,
It’s a shame you’ve wasted that time researching old posts in order to make a post countering an argument that doesn’t exist.
What did I say in my post . Let’s look…
Just to be clear, I am not Gary Neville.
I was purely making the point that Neville makes out we’ve ruined world class proven managers. Nothing in my post was about who I think should and shouldn’t be qualified to manage United. It was purely about comments made by Neville.
Even the first part of my post is pure fact stating on the back of comments made by United fans.
Some united fans seem to hold the view that managers fail here and only here.
There is absolutely nothing disingenuous about me pointing out what those managers are all currently doing.
Literally nothing in my post was opinion based. And it’s weird that you held onto a past post and got yourself all worked up and excited to try and start throwing shade.
After 20 years of Glazers you still think we fans can do anything or have a say? We can only line their pockets and come cry on forums like this one about the latest state of the club. Maybe fly a banner or two in between. That's about it.
What's this obsession with how other clubs in other leagues with entirely different circumstances operate?
- PSG play in a one team league. Bayern Munich effectively play in a one team league. Not finishing first is a disaster for these teams. PSG didn't sack Pochettino when he couldn't overhaul Lille's one point lead at the top of Ligue 1 when he took over.
- Real Madrid and Barcelona play in a two team league. Anything lower than second is a disaster for them.
- Inter spent almost a decade being irrelevant after Mourinho went. Juventus hoovered up what had essentially become a one team league for a bit with one man in charge for 5 years, who they've since rehired (and sacked again).
Also, Real Madrid also once sacked Ancelotti and ended up with fecking Benitez, who they stuck with for another six games despite a 4-0 home defeat to Barcelona dropping them to 3rd in the league (they've also just lost 4-0 at home to Barcelona again and not binned Ancelotti, and they didn't bin Mourinho after he lost 5-0 at Barcelona about four months into his stint).
Guardiola finished 3rd in his first season at City, and got beat 4-0 by Everton. They got beat by Monaco in the first knockout of the Champions League, and won neither domestic trophy. This his ninth season at the club.
Klopp finished 8th in his first season at Liverpool, and didn't finish higher than 4th until his fourth season. They got beat 3-0 by Watford in his first season, once went over a month where their only win was an FA Cup replay against a team in League One, and had a spell of one win in six matches, bookended by a 5-0 loss at City and a 4-1 loss at Spurs. After winning the title, they lost 7-2 to Dean Smith's Aston Villa and later that season went on a run in which they won just three of 14 league matches, losing eight of them. He finished 5th after establishing them as one of the country's top sides, in a season that saw them again get battered 4-1 by City, as well as lose 3-0 to Brighton and Wolves in a run of four games where their best result was a 0-0 home draw. He was there for nine years and left of his own accord.
Arteta will have been at Arsenal for five years in December, and didn't finish higher than 5th until his fourth season (and hasn't won anything since his first). He got knocked out of Europe by Olympiacos in his first season and finished 8th, finished 8th again in his second, starting that season with just four wins in the opening 14 games, losing eight, with Arsenal sat 15th in the league, and then lost all three opening games of his third season, one of which was 5-0 to City. He'd go on to lose another 10 league games that season, including 4-0 to Liverpool, 3-0 to Palace and 3-0 to Spurs. Even in their first title challenging season, his aggregate scoreline against title-rivals City was a 7-2 defeat.
Manchester United have absolutely had a managerial merry-go-round. That's not to say the managers we've fired should have had more time, or even that we shouldn't have fired some of them a bit earlier than we did.
What's "utterly baffling" is looking at what's happened over the past decade and concluding that the issue has been not sacking managers "after 1 significant bad result" (your example of which happened literally a week after we won our first trophy in six years, while we were sat 3rd in the table, and was ultimately completely meaningless) and "the next guy 3 games later", all based on some completely false notion of how other clubs, often in other countries, are operating.
Ultimately, I think everyone got a fair crack at the whip. Moyes was maybe given a bit longer than he should have been because we desperately hoped it was just the post-Fergie hangover. van Gaal probably would have kept his job if we'd not lost that game to West Ham at the end of the season, but it was the right time to let him go. Mourinho finished 2nd then had less than half a season before he was sacked. Same for Solskjaer. I actually think Ten Hag should have been let go about halfway through last season when it became apparent he was going to make no efforts to adapt his tactics to the ongoing injury crisis, just to try and secure some results, but if you give him the injuries as a mitigating factor, then giving him the start of this season was fair enough. For the most part, you're quibbling over a handful of games when you're saying we could/should have sacked them earlier. The biggest problem, of course, is that we shouldn't have hired most of them in the first place.
There's only one way to really get their attention and that's by no longer giving them your money.
Stop going to matches; stop buying merchandise.
Stop going to matches; stop buying merchandise.
Fans are the gatekeepers of the club and its main customers. We might not hold the keys to the kingdom but once the fans unite its very rare that they don't get what they want especially at lower management level (ex managers, DOF etc). In my opinion we need to become better educated about football especially how football clubs are run (CEOs, DOFs, managers etc) and we should keep everyone into account. There's standards that needs to be met and while Rome wasn't built in 1 day there need to be some progression towards building the darn thing.
Take Murtough for example. For years the club had taken many fans for a ride on him just because he kept leaking catchy phrases like 'we're hiring data analysts' or 'we're hiring more data analysts'. Yet the bottom line was that there was no difference between pre Murtough and post Murtough. Now compare to how Ashworth works. Sure we're far from perfect but we didn't spent 80m on a winger with Phil Nev's dribbling skills, we actually signed decent talent on decent fees and when the manager messed up we replaced him in a matter of weeks. That's the difference between highly specialized people in their role and Woodward's mate.
The same with the manager. SAF's type of managers are gone and the job had since been dubbed down. We have head coaches these days whose role is mostly broken down in doing 4 main tasks ie tactics, day to day training, motivation and having a decent say on fitness. If there's no progression in those areas and the same mistakes are happening time and time again then that manager is not good enough. We don't need 2-3 years to acknowledge that. ETH had more red flags around him then Manchester after the treble. His tactics were predictable, he kept signing Eredivisie players which is astonishing considering how shit that league is and he had as much charisma as Paul Scholes in a bad mood and with a hangover. Everything surrounding the guy screamed of limited. Not to forget players like Luke Shaw and Phil Jones who took us/are taken us to cleaners and despite all that there's people out there who are still defending them. We're not talking about guys on minimum wage here but millionaires who could have easily retired comfortably if only they had some love towards the club/self respect. Then we wonder why we're a magnet for freeloaders.
I am looking forward for Amorim to start. Once he had settled down then my focus will go straight on injuries. If we still have waves upon waves of injuries (not the usual suspects but most of the team) then the issue lie in the medical department. If not then it was yet another feckup from ETH.
Take Murtough for example. For years the club had taken many fans for a ride on him just because he kept leaking catchy phrases like 'we're hiring data analysts' or 'we're hiring more data analysts'. Yet the bottom line was that there was no difference between pre Murtough and post Murtough. Now compare to how Ashworth works. Sure we're far from perfect but we didn't spent 80m on a winger with Phil Nev's dribbling skills, we actually signed decent talent on decent fees and when the manager messed up we replaced him in a matter of weeks. That's the difference between highly specialized people in their role and Woodward's mate.
The same with the manager. SAF's type of managers are gone and the job had since been dubbed down. We have head coaches these days whose role is mostly broken down in doing 4 main tasks ie tactics, day to day training, motivation and having a decent say on fitness. If there's no progression in those areas and the same mistakes are happening time and time again then that manager is not good enough. We don't need 2-3 years to acknowledge that. ETH had more red flags around him then Manchester after the treble. His tactics were predictable, he kept signing Eredivisie players which is astonishing considering how shit that league is and he had as much charisma as Paul Scholes in a bad mood and with a hangover. Everything surrounding the guy screamed of limited. Not to forget players like Luke Shaw and Phil Jones who took us/are taken us to cleaners and despite all that there's people out there who are still defending them. We're not talking about guys on minimum wage here but millionaires who could have easily retired comfortably if only they had some love towards the club/self respect. Then we wonder why we're a magnet for freeloaders.
I am looking forward for Amorim to start. Once he had settled down then my focus will go straight on injuries. If we still have waves upon waves of injuries (not the usual suspects but most of the team) then the issue lie in the medical department. If not then it was yet another feckup from ETH.
The club was financially ramsacked by the Glazers. Other clubs were well run and in City's case cheated as well. So now we are miles behind. That distance can't be made up quickly. It may be that it can't be made up at all.
I honestly believe the club should publish the bio-mechanical data they are capturing from players during games. Several players over the years have tried to get away with "jogging on the spot" and fake running at 3/4 pace when being tasked to track back.
The data is out there and can easily be cross referenced against personal metrics like VO max for that individual for example. So if a striker was half-arsing it in a game we would be able to see they never approached peak effort at any stage in the game.
Players coming back from injury could have their "target" figures amended to reflect their recovery period.
We've had players in the past that were very "economical" in their effort - but they usually offered something else like an ability to unlock a defence - so I'm not saying everyone has to spend 90 minutes in the "red zone" of performance, however we've had a lot of fake effort on display in the recent past and it needs eradicating from the club.
The data is out there and can easily be cross referenced against personal metrics like VO max for that individual for example. So if a striker was half-arsing it in a game we would be able to see they never approached peak effort at any stage in the game.
Players coming back from injury could have their "target" figures amended to reflect their recovery period.
We've had players in the past that were very "economical" in their effort - but they usually offered something else like an ability to unlock a defence - so I'm not saying everyone has to spend 90 minutes in the "red zone" of performance, however we've had a lot of fake effort on display in the recent past and it needs eradicating from the club.
So you agree with me then other than you think changing manager every 2.25 years is a merry go round, and I think that a merry go round is what clubs ilke Madrid etc do. Your mistake here is to assume I am championing the Madrid, bayern way - when I did no such thing - I merely used it as an example of what an actual merry-go-round looks ilke compared to what United have done. I never once said or concluded that sacking managers was the answer, and I never said we should sack anyone after one bad result (I gave the 7-0 as an example of a result at United that at one of these other clubs might easily have seen him sacked - again without ever once stating that this is what I think should happen).
So to summarise, I maintain that united have not had a managerial merry-go-round and in comparison to the clubs that have often had one, we have been the paragons of patience. But thanks for your reply, albeit rather long and arguing against things I largely didn't ever say
So you agree with me then other than you think changing manager every 2.25 years is a merry go round, and I think that a merry go round is what clubs ilke Madrid etc do. Your mistake here is to assume I am championing the Madrid, bayern way - when I did no such thing - I merely used it as an example of what an actual merry-go-round looks ilke compared to what United have done. I never once said or concluded that sacking managers was the answer, and I never said we should sack anyone after one bad result (I gave the 7-0 as an example of a result at United that at one of these other clubs might easily have seen him sacked - again without ever once stating that this is what I think should happen).
So to summarise, I maintain that united have not had a managerial merry-go-round and in comparison to the clubs that have often had one, we have been the paragons of patience. But thanks for your reply, albeit rather long and arguing against things I largely didn't ever say
To be honest, it wasn't really specifically aimed at you, hence it beginning with "what is this obsession...?"
We've had at least 18 months of "Real Madrid/Bayern Munich would have sacked him for that!" so seeing your post in the same ballpark set me off a bit.
Appreciate your general point (even if I don't really agree) being just about what constitutes "a merry-go-round".
Fair enough.. and thanks for the considered reply.
Came in to say approximately this. You did it better, though.
yeah he was given the most time and got backed the most.
I would consider 5 seasons to be very long for today's benchmark.
Exactly. Nothing. And anyway, sacking a manager and get a new one isn't a vicious circle at all.
For fans of other leagues in Europe, Premier League has also been a one team league - City won it six times in last seven years.
We just seem to be more interested in the league, for obvious reasons, so we rate Liverpool, Arsenal and because we're worse than Chelsea, Tottenham and so on, we keep thinking it is much more competitive than other leagues in Europe.
Sorry, I missed that we were actually Manchester City, winning it every year
We must change managers until we find the right one, that's how football works nowadays. If we hope to find the next SAF, than we are doomed and will never win this league in our life time.
The match going fans could express themselves more often when something is not right, there is no shame in that.
The match going fans could express themselves more often when something is not right, there is no shame in that.
I don't know why but that's brilliant.
Ours is not to reason why, ours is just to watch and sigh.
Exactly this. Well said.
Stop making excuses and mothering a 27 year old on £300k a week who has scored 6 goals from open play in 42 PL appearances might be a start.
Fully agree, but I can understand how the fans might feel it's more of a players issue after sacking several managers. It's not blind loyalty but rather a confusion about accountability. We've certainly signed a lot of poor players post Fergie, so I get why we're always hesitant to point fingers at managers.
For example if Amorim starts very badly, it'd be really difficult to pin point how to fix that. So there'll always be a voice that wants to give him time.
We can keep protesting against the Glazers.
Managers are hired to win games, if they don’t another one is getting a go.
Owners on the other hand is not replaced, regardless of results on or of the pitch.
That’s what we fan can and must do.
Managers are hired to win games, if they don’t another one is getting a go.
Owners on the other hand is not replaced, regardless of results on or of the pitch.
That’s what we fan can and must do.
Well said.
Stop being the most toxic online fan base in the league?
Accept that our players aren't at the same level as 15-20 years ago and that therefore it shouldn't be a licence to dish out the abuse every time they don't reach those standards.
Also accept that even of some of them can reach those standards, it is much less likely to happen if you create an environment where you only pick at the negative aspects of what they do, and then use that as a means to point every problem or bad performance at them.
Also be less obsessed in general with sticking the knife into the players. Players have come and gone and will continue to do so. The attitude, belief, culture or whatever you want to call it isn't dependent on one or two individuals. It's dependent on the environment you put the players into and to an extent the ability and motivational skills of the manager.
Mctominay and Maguire are two very good examples. The sort of players who might not be world beaters but can either thrive or be a burden depending on the environment you throw them into. Being at a club who tries to force them to leave and with fans who do nothing but call them shite is unlikely to be a "thrive" scenario.
Accept that our players aren't at the same level as 15-20 years ago and that therefore it shouldn't be a licence to dish out the abuse every time they don't reach those standards.
Also accept that even of some of them can reach those standards, it is much less likely to happen if you create an environment where you only pick at the negative aspects of what they do, and then use that as a means to point every problem or bad performance at them.
Also be less obsessed in general with sticking the knife into the players. Players have come and gone and will continue to do so. The attitude, belief, culture or whatever you want to call it isn't dependent on one or two individuals. It's dependent on the environment you put the players into and to an extent the ability and motivational skills of the manager.
Mctominay and Maguire are two very good examples. The sort of players who might not be world beaters but can either thrive or be a burden depending on the environment you throw them into. Being at a club who tries to force them to leave and with fans who do nothing but call them shite is unlikely to be a "thrive" scenario.
What is this? Stop celebrating success? Seriously?
We should not stop celebrating success, but fans need to be objective. A win in the cup does not erase the months of mediocrity being severed by the manager. It was very clear that once the manager put aside his ego and favouritism we have a team that can play and win football matches.
Don't twist my words.
We all celebrated the success. Some overreacted and called for him to stay despite us being shite all season.
Amen. Hiring ten Hag made sense back then. Keeping him for the last 12 months did not make sense.
Hiring Amorim now makes sense. Not firing him if he sucks, does not make sense.
If we hire promising managers, and are quite fast at identifying if they suck or can actually be good, we’ll figure it out. Which is how every other massive club works for a while now, but somehow we seem to fetishize finding another Fergie who would be here for a couple of decades, when instead we should be thinking about finding a good manager for the next two years (and firing the current one if he sucks).
On balance of probabilities, most managers will suck here. So hire and fire fast until we find someone who does not suck.
Exactly. This is how Real Madrid operates, and why they are so successful.
Get a manager in. If it is obvious that they are no good, they fire them and get someone else in until they get it right. They don't blindly stick with managers/players who clearly aren't up to the task for years on end, like we do.
Hopefully with INEOS proving to be a bit more decisive in terms of firing ETH and getting rid of toxic players like Sancho, we will begin to operate more like Madrid and therefore have a better chance at success.
I don’t think it was an over reaction. Firstly
I think many fans were ashamed of what the club pulled on LVG when he won the cup, so there was a desire to be better than that this time round.
Secondly the cup final showed what we can achieve as a team, and Erik was well liked - many wanted him to succeed so it’s natural after a success like that to want him to get more time to build, especially with a off season ahead to buy in reinforcements.
I can understand the reaction over the LVG FA Cup Sacking, it was rather shameful of the Woodward leadership.
However, the writing was on the wall for ETH and many were ready for a change before that final.
Winning on the day in no way should have led to him continuing. He was breaking negative records everywhere.
You stop getting attached to the idea of a singular manager taking us from very poor to elite.
For now, the job at hand is to implement a modern, sustainable way of playing will help us control games more often. Most top teams have shared basic principles. We need to be on that same page - establish the foundations. This is, right now, the most important thing Amorim can do.
We stick with that manager until he hits his ceiling. When he reaches that ceiling, you look around and try to get a manager to take that next step while still keeping those foundations. When that manager reaches his ceiling (or makes us worse) we move on.
You can't control whether a DOF, Manager, Player, set piece coach works out. You give them a fair crack, look at their work objectively, and if they're not up to scratch you move on until you win big trophies. That's how top clubs operate.
Luckily, it's usually pretty obvious if the type of football a team is playing is going in the right direction or not. It was obvious Arteta and Klopp were going to make a top team. People like Amorim, Xabi Alonso, Nagelsmann, Iraola, McKenna and Frank are very good coaches and it's obvious. Whether or not they can translate that to a top team, you only ever really know when (if) they arrive there.
For now, the job at hand is to implement a modern, sustainable way of playing will help us control games more often. Most top teams have shared basic principles. We need to be on that same page - establish the foundations. This is, right now, the most important thing Amorim can do.
We stick with that manager until he hits his ceiling. When he reaches that ceiling, you look around and try to get a manager to take that next step while still keeping those foundations. When that manager reaches his ceiling (or makes us worse) we move on.
You can't control whether a DOF, Manager, Player, set piece coach works out. You give them a fair crack, look at their work objectively, and if they're not up to scratch you move on until you win big trophies. That's how top clubs operate.
Luckily, it's usually pretty obvious if the type of football a team is playing is going in the right direction or not. It was obvious Arteta and Klopp were going to make a top team. People like Amorim, Xabi Alonso, Nagelsmann, Iraola, McKenna and Frank are very good coaches and it's obvious. Whether or not they can translate that to a top team, you only ever really know when (if) they arrive there.
I think the cup win was a convenient cover for the new hierarchy. Honestly they interviewed plenty and didn’t find anyone they really wanted so had to back track, otherwise Erik would have been gone in the summer. No doubt